So the 3rd hokage trained under the first two hokages. He in turn trained Jiraiya, who trained the 4th, who trained Kakashi.
Kakashi having trained under the 4th brings up some questions for me.
Did Kakashi get his sharingan before or after he trained under the 4th?
If he got it before, was he able to use the jutsu copying ability of it when he was training?
Both of which lead up to the questions: How many of the 4ths jutsus do you think Kakashi knows? and; When is he going to get around to passing them on to the person they are most suited for? (Naruto of course)
A little sidenote: People seem to think that Kakashi doesn't have good chakra/stamina which from my understanding isn't true. He has a pretty decent amount of chakra, it is just not a legendary amount like the sannin/akatsuki/Naruto/etc.. Sharingan takes a lot out of him, but I think it more or less costs him double chakra to use it due to him not being an Uchiha (Danzo counteracted this somewhat by using the first hokages cells). That being said Kakashi tends to use badass techniques that have high chakra costs to end things quick - it's easy to run out of stamina that way. /rant
Well, from what we have seen and read so far, I
would say Guy is the better and stronger shinobi.
First of all, he is a better sensei than
Kakashi. Just look at team Guy, Neji is on a whole
level of his own even among the revered Hyuoga,
Lee is a phenomenon(someone who everybody thought
could not be a shinobi but under the guidance of
Guy has risen to surpass his peers), Tenten to me
is the strongest Kuniochi we have seen in Konoha (
probably even better than Tsundade,who so far
hasn't done anything to be worthy of the
tittle). Sakura sucks as a Kuniochi, I even wonder
if Kakashi taught her anything at all. The only
abilities that sakura has shown so far is to
distract Naruto in battles, medical ninjutsu and
brute force taught her by Tsunadi. Even Kishi has
left hints to Guys superiority over Kakashi, there
is a reason why he put team Guy away from the
attack by Pain.
Also, I think Kakashi
is first among shinobi who have not lived up to
the hype Kishi has created around them(Tsunadi,
being second). Kakashi always disappoints in over
96% of fights that he has been in. Sometimes its
so embarrassing that younger, less experienced
gennin and chunin level shinobi come in to save
him. Even after his resolve to finish off Sasuke,
(a sick, depressed and poisoned)Naruto had to come
in to save him from a weakened Sasuke.
And people stop feeding into Kishi's hype
of Itachi and the Uchiha. The strongest and
quintessential Shinobi is Minnato of the Namikaze
clan(except probably Hashirama of the Senju who is
a legend and legends are most of the time
exaggerated). Madara or whoever he may be himself
said it of Minnato that he deserved the tittle of
Hokage, something that Madara opposed for the
In the exchange where Naruto came in after Sasuke
had killed Danzo. He didn't rescue Kakashi at
all, he rescued Sakura, and Sasuke. Sasuke
didn't even touch Kakashi in a single
exchange they made there, but Kakashi did score a
few hits on Sasuke.... BEFORE Sasuke lost his
eyes. Once he lost his eyes, it was all over for
him because Kakashi actually did have killing
If Naruto hadn't shown
up, Sakura and Sasuke would be dead, not
Kakashi. True Sasuke had just fought all of
the Kages so was understandably tired, but
don't make it sound as if that particular
fight was an example of Kakashi sucking, because
it really is the best (current) example of how he
@lll_Awsum_lll Interesting how you keep
finding excuses for Kakashi losing all the
Let me see if I can answer some
of these talking points.
1) Kakashi did
go looking for a fight and got Obito killed.
Whether he was talked into it or not he went
looking. So much for not getting his teammate
killed. Bottom Line: you failed to make your
2)When I say the Sharingan
Letting things get by I mean, the Sharingan is
supposed to be able to increase ones reaction time
by allowing you to see your enemies movements as
if they were slowed down (which we know he can do
since his lightning blade became more efficient
after getting Obito's eye) . So when I say
let things get by I mean Haku who just happened to
jump in front of Kakashi at the last second. And you say he forced the death of a Blood line
Limit user? Well you can sugar-coat it all you
want but I think he screwed up and missed his
intended target who was immobilized at the time
(all while utilizing his Sharingan) Also
letting Deiadara get away just by using an
exploding clone (granted he was probably exhausted
after using the MSharingan. But those were two
important events where he dropped the ball. Bottom
Line: He lets things get by his Sharingan.
3) Guy has way more training than Lee so
he could get away with only being worn out after
opening 7 gates. But it also just goes to show
you how determined he was to finish his opponent
off, willing to go all out to get the job done.
Bottom Line: Guy knows how much damage his body
can take and how much Lee can handle.
Now, none of what you said justifies
Kakashi's record against strong opponents.
As a potential Hokage he needs to be able to
perform better against those types of opponents.
And you can say what you want about The
"easiest" Pain, but he took out several
ninja before Konohamaru came along and even the
weakest of the Pains would still be Ranked in the
high class. Jaraiya had to go into Sage Mode to
beat just three of them.
And as far as
his thinking ability, he is "Supposed"
to be smarter than Shikamaru with way more battle
experience. To me that means he should be able to
think on his feet, while battling strong
opponents. Couple that with the Sharingan He
shouldn't need to have a lot of time to think
about a strategy. Let me use those same
words back at you about Itachi:
lll_Awsum_lll;"Itachi doesn't bluff;
when he says or does something, it is either for
Akatsuki's purpose or his own." Thanks
for proving my point, when Itachi tells Kisame not
to underestimate Guy, he wasn't bluffing. And
in order to break tsukuyomi you have to first be
caught in it. Guy's intention was to not get
caught in it. And like I said before there is no
reason to doubt his word nor Itachi for that
You speak about Kisame like he
couldn't fight before he got Samehada. As I
recall he was an Assasin for his village. So you
can say what you want about him being weak against
Taijutsu he still got his ass kicked by Guy with
Bottom Line: Alot of
people think Kakashi is the coolest thing since
shaved ice; but he has yet to prove it in an
actual fight against strong opponents. His only
consistency is his losing streak.
We know he has done much, we've been told so,
we see the truth of it in the fact that every
enemy he's come across knew exactly who he
was. It's not as though he hasn't
made a decent showing of himself on every enemy
he's fought (with the exception of Itachi,
and no one ever beat Itachi, he commited suicide
on Sasuke), and the only other person who's
fought as many of the Akatsuki as he has is
Naruto. The only person that has defeated an
akutsuki member by themselves (well without other
ninja anyway) is Naruto. Shikamaru defeated
an akatsuki member.... with Kakashi's
help. If Kakashi hadn't gotten the other
guys blood (being the ONLY person that could) it
wouldn't have been possible for the trick to
happen, which means you have to give him half
credit on both the heart and the other dude. Obito went looking for a fight, not Kakashi,
Kakashi backed him up. Haku got in the way
because Zabuza had a big smokescreen up more or
less. It was proven that the sharingan
couldn't penetrate the mist, so he
couldn't see Haku use the body flicker
jutsu. As for Guy, ok so opening up 7 gates
to defeat a clone[/I] of an Akatsuki member
[I]No Problem... doesn't really prove him
better than Kakashi in any way. The fight
against Deidara, he was never after the kill, he
was after gaara's body, he got it, he won. The fight against Sasuke he totally had the
upper hand in and would have won.
think of Kakashi what we are intended to think. That he's a badass.
main difference between us and you is that we can
take the storyteller's word for it whether we
see him be the finisher or not.
I see now you're really just trying to pump
Well I do think that Guy has been underused, but
he is undefeated which so far is a better record
than Kakashi, even if it's one or two fights
undefeated is undefeated. But I am just pointing
out from everything I have seen, Kakashi is
supposed to be legendary, but he keeps coming up
Shikamaru did use Kakashi but
whose idea was it for the whole plan?
But even with the
help of others Kakashi couldn't finish his
opponent (Kakuzu) off. He couldn't
compensate with his Sharingan and he had to get
more help to finish his opponenet off (Naruto)
What gives? Fail!
He had help with Pain
just like everyone else but, only Naruto and
Konohamaru were able to defeat their opponents
(even though it may have been temporary for
Konohamaru's). Even Choza who helped out
Kakashi, severely damaged one of the Pains. Sorry
cant buy that one. Fail!
Yes Obito went
looking for a fight but Kakashi was the Team
Leader and he followed right along with Obito, at
that point Kakashi went looking for a fight as
well. And since he couldn't convince his
subordinate to do otherwise, Kakashi is
responsible for his death. Any way you look at it
it was Kakashi's team and his responsibility;
so win, lose, or draw Kakashi takes the credit or
the blame. Fail!
I can see where the
the mist played a factor but Zabuza was held in
place by Kakashi's hounds who sniffed him
out. But this is where it gets fishy; Kakashi was
about to strike and he knew where he was striking.
If the mist played that much of a factor as you
say then he would have been striking blind just
hoping to get Zabuza. He may have known his
general location but there would be no way to
guess if he was standing, facing front, back,or
sideways, laying down, on his knees, etc...but he
magically made a bee line straight for
Zabuza's heart (not knowing where on
Zabuza's body he was aiming) and missed.
Guy opened up Gates to defeat
both the clone and the real deal, why
couldn't Kakashi, we know his capable of it.
So far (as shown) Guy's record against strong
opponents is better that Kakashi.
with Deidara it was a recovery but also I'm
quite sure Kakashi would have taken his head off
if he had better control of his MSharingan. But
this still does not explain why he let him escape.
Even Sakura and Granny Chio, destroyed their
opponent. They were on the same recovery mission
also. What gives? Fail!
As I said
before I am not sure what kind of missions he
built his reputation on, but so far, for someone
who is a Genius, is former ANBU, has a Sharingan
is called Copy Ninja, and is as respected/feared
as he is, he hasn't lived up to the hype. If the storyteller wants you to believe this guy
is as awesome as he says then he should show it ,
not make him out to be a joke. Case in point
Minato, everyone is told how awesome he was and
then shown, so far it looks like he never lost a
fight regardless of the strength of the opponent,
then he sacrificed his life to save the village,
he went all out defeated his opponent then gave
his life. I haven't seen Kakashi go all
out in a fight yet. Sure he gave his life to save
Choji but he was already beaten at that point.
All I'm saying is make the guy live
up to the hype if he is as awesome as claimed then
show it. Don't just show some cool looking
guy who is living off of victories from his past.
If he is considered Hokage material then he should
be showing some Hokage level skills and be able to
win more fights against stronger level opponents.
Just to clarify a point: The body flicker
jutsu is a space-time ninjutsu that is quite
commonly practiced. It's what people
use whenever they disappear in a puff of smoke. It is only good for a pretty short distance
though. So Haku didn't run in, he
teleported there. The mist had cleared enough
to see close to you, but not as far away as Haku
was so Kakashi couldn't possible have made
out haku making the signs for the body flicker
jutsu and was unprepared (as anyone would have
I agree it would be nice to see
more of Kakashi being a badass though.
As for the actual defeat of Kisame I'd say
it was more due to the revolt of Samehada than any
particular talent of Guy's - he just had
everything go right for him that fight. Kakashi
always seems to have everything go wrong for him
I'm not sure but I think Haku used his Kekkei
Genkai to hop in front of Kakashi not the Body
Flicker. So I can concede that might have been a
difficult kill under those circumstances. But
being "unprepared" as you say seems to
be his trademark in these type of fights. So
far of the Original Team 7 he is the only one that
hasn't gone all out to take out an Akatsuki
member. Sasuke,Naruto,Sakura all faced tough
opponents with the and all three of them almost
died as a result, but they triumphed in the end.
Not so much for Kakashi. He hit a roadblock with
Kakuzu and got beat to death by Pain.
As for Guy, he faced Kisame three times and
although the second one was a clone he got the
better of him three times. I really don't
understand why he doesn't get enough credit.
Even though it seems a lot of folks hang on to
every word Itachi utters but, when it comes to
what he said about Guy its easily dismissed.
Overall I really think they need to
showcase Kakashi (and Guy) a little more so we can
see how he lives up to that reputation. So far I
can't say I'm impressed.
Kakashi recieved his sharingan from Obito when he
was a Jonin on a mission during the 2nd ninja war
with his team of Obito Rin and the 4th hokage.
Obito tried to save Rin and got crushed by a
boulder he says somehting along the lines of
Kakashi I never gave you a present for becoming a
jonin he then proceeds to tell Rin to remove his
left eye and implant it in Kakashi's which
had been cut by an enemy. so he was still under
training from the 4th when he received it.