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Itachi's Edo Tensei (Immortality?)
Thanks to Kotoamatsukami Itachi is now free of Kabuto's Jutsu but I'm calling Itachi's bluff, "I will stop the edo tensei" he says with no doubt because he knows without the initial caster of the Jutsu (that would be Kabuto) he can live forever.

Just an idea but the effects of the edo tensei may not have worn off just the control of it, like if Itachi got sawed in half he'd just reconstruct making him immortal cause he has control of his own body.

<> What is Itachi's true intent in stopping this jutsu himself?
<> If Kabuto releases the jutsu will Itachi return to the spirit world?
<> Can Itachi Die?
<> Does Madara fully know how to use this jutsu or did kabuto keep some
> secrets about it?


by xaioque
Written: 3 years ago
Property: Naruto

Blog Comments (34)

Page:
@Almightywood: To add to that if he was out of/ low on chackra, he would have had a hard time performing his jutsu. But he summoned a couple of beasts and used his other powers without any issues prior to him sucking out the 9 tails chackra from Naruto.

Posted by edawg 3 years ago

Nagato seems to have an exceedingly large amount of chakra in total, so he could be really low, and still cast jutsus. After all he did do so when fighting with Naruto.

I don't think that performing jutsus actually uses chakra when you are in an edo tensai state. I think you have to have enough chakra to do the jutsu, it just doesn't get used. Nagato did seem to step up his jutsus once he absorbed the chakra from Bee and Naruto.

As for the scar on the raikage's chest that's more of a superficial defect than a malady as such and shouldn't really be restored. Nagato's shoes would be clothing which also would be superficial, and he probably just wasn't wearing them in that statue thing. Nagato and Itachi were both in their akatsuki garb when they died so what they are wearing seems appropriate to me. I don't recall ever seeing them wearing anything but akatsuki garb to be honest.

As for Nagato's mobility I never really saw him fighting and moving so you can't really say that he was ever that mobile to begin with. Even in the flashback scene where you see him take out hanzou's forces he doesn't use mobility, he just calls up that statue. In other words I think it was more like a personal weakness of his.

Posted by Almightywood 3 years ago

@Almightywood: I guess this is one we will have to disagree on. I think he did have some prior mobility. It was never mentioned during their training with Jariya. and if we are going by what just what was shown, then Konan and Yahiko never really showed much mobilty either. You could even say that they didn't learn any jutsu beyond what they were shown by Jariya (if you keep going that route), but we know that's not the case. He seemed mobile enough to save Konan (from Hanzo and Danzo)in enough time so she wouldn't get blown up by the explosive tags (To me this would mean he had pretty good mobility). This in turn caused him to lose his mobility (even though it didn't stop him from being able to stand ( I can only assume that he was able to move but just not as well as before).

And like I pointed out in the reference earlier Kabuto made specific emphasis on his feet.

If you are assuming the resurrection puts them at their "ideal version of themselves" that would mean no scars no damage whatsoever. Out of all the Kages that were resurrected none of them had any superficial scars except the Raikage and Hanzo (and maybe Mu but its hard to tell with those wrappings). This seems unlikely considering that Mu and the Second Mizukage killed each other in battle. They would have racked up many superficial scars, but they seem to have none. If its as you theorize Edo Tensei would only repair the damage that caused their demise and would not repair anything superficial (meaning any scars they incurred during their life would be still visible and any non life threatening injury would still be visible), but only the Raikage and Hanzo seem have a scar remaining. I know that Asuma received several (superficial) scars and burns during his last battle, but none were present during his fight with his Team.

Concerning the clothing I only point that out because some of them seem to return with the clothing they died in (Asuma, Zabuza, and Haku for example). Now I don't know if Asuma was buried in his battle garb but I would assume they would have given him a proper burial in Konoha and changed his clothing. Others seem to be in different clothing than what they died in(Nagato, Itachi, and Kakuzu). And if there were no noticeable issues with Nagato's mobility why make a point of him not having any shoes?

Itachi seems to be fully restored (eyesight and ailment) plus he seems to have no problem with chackra (even though he had a battle with Sasuke prior to his death). The Raikage battled an army for three days before he was either killed or died from depleting his chackra. Neither one of these were having problems with their chackra after resurrection. Nagato is of the Uzumaki clan which is renowned for their longevity which is implied throughout as having to do with an impressive amount of chackra reserve, yet he was the only one having a chackra shortage after his resurrection? This makes no sense to me.

And you say they don't use up chackra but they can replenish it and even increase it? This makes no sense either. If they are returned to their ideal version this should not be a problem. How could the condition Nagato came back in be considered his Ideal Version, when after he sucked up chackra he got stronger? They should be full of chackra and ready to battle, but we know this is not the case.

Either they all come back fully garbed or they don't. Either they are fully restored to their Ideal Version (without scars superficial or otherwise) including full chackra or they are not. It seems like its pick and choose with what comes back, how they look and how strong they are when they come back.

This is why I stated there are many inconsistencies with this jutsu.

Posted by edawg 3 years ago

Spectacular argument edawg, just trowing in my 2 cents here

Akatsuki was formed after Yahiko died and Nagato was confined to a special device due to lack of mobility so prior to that he could not have worn the uniform yet he was revived with Akatsuki clothing (Huge contradiction)

That makes this jutsu look like a build a bear workshop. Just putting parts and clothes together.

Emphasizing on what edawg said about the chakra Uzumaki's mass reserves of chakra should have enabled him to walk
Quoting Almightywood@ edawg
I don't believe Nagato had leg injuries when revived, it was more like he was still weak because of lack of chakra.

When Naruto and Neji fought in the Chuunin exams Neji was surprised because Naruto shouldn't have even been able to move due to lack of chakra.

There definitely is a little overlap between what it can and can't restore, but I think there's a line there

Posted by Xaio Quolt 3 years ago

Itachi may have had some of his clothing removed and or damaged during the fight with Sasuke, but he was still wearing the same garb when resurrected as when he died. Kakuzu as well was wearing the same thing it just got tore up during his final battle. You are right that Nagato wasn't wearing that when he died and was actually never shown in the akatsuki garb before he was resurrected with edo tensai. The only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that their appearance and clothing must be based more on recognition than anything to do with their death (Nagato's appearance being the exception since his less recognizable appearance was due to a spiritual problem rather than a physical one).

Ninja are warriors, and scars to a warrior would be marks of survival/strength and would be included in their ideal versions. Either way what I meant when I said an ideal version of a person was that basically if someone managed to get taken down after they were way too old to do anything they would be resurrected to their most recognizable appearance, and their best strength and movement.

If Nagato had truly been quick in the flashback, he would have not only rescued Konaan from Hanzo's paper bombs, but gotten out in time to not get injured. After rescuing her, no one was impressed with his mobility, they were impressed he survived. It could just as easily be said that they showed his feet to reference this earlier example of him not being that mobile, than to claim that it was a reference to them being previously injured. After all Kabuto didn't say 'I knew it, his mobility was impaired', he said 'I knew it, he lacks mobility'. Considering that what got him was Itachi's one hit kill susano'o you'd have to be exceptionally mobile to avoid it.

I think that in an edo tensai state that your chakra doesn't deplete in much the same way that you can't lose any limbs or "die". After all you wouldn't expect a corpse to need rest, sleep, or food. All would be indications of depleted chakra in a living ninja.

I think chakra works something like: How much chakra a jutsu uses is a set number, but when your lack of chakra affects your physical ability is based on percentage remaining rather than total amount remaining.

Itachi didn't seem to be anywhere near out of chakra when dying and we have no idea about the others you mentioned. Nagato however had many references made by Konaan about how much chakra he was using, and basically died from lack of chakra, the only other person to do that that I know of is Kakashi.


Like I was saying it does kind of make sense if you look at it like edo tensai restores your body completely, but only recalls your soul. If your soul is short on chakra, it can't change that. Chakra is, after all, spiritual energy. It's pretty much the only explanation I can come up with that DOES cover the majority of the inconsistencies.

Posted by Almightywood 3 years ago

@Almightywood: I still don't agree with your explanations, and I think you are confusing mobility with speed or quickness. They are not the same thing. I am in no means saying he was quick. Being mobile has more to do with if someone can move or not, or whether they have they full range of movement. A sloth, a snail, a turtle is mobile or has mobility but it is not quick or fast. When something lacks or has limited mobility it is immobile its movement has either stopped or it cant's move as freely as it is supposed to (for whatever reason).

As far as I know, aside from the 4th (and recently), Naruto none of Jariya's students were known for their speed, put that against two Kage level ninja that set a trap of explosive tags, it would be difficult for anyone to escape unscathed. For instance, take the fight between Konan and Madara, she set a trap that was clever enough so he could not escape through speed or any other means, he took a lot of damage that would have killed almost any other ninja; would you still say he lacked mobility or speed for that matter when we know he is one of the fastest Ninjas around. The fact the he survived would be enough for anyone to remark on his durability (possibly because of the amount of chackra he has), they would make no mention of his speed unless he actually escaped from the trap unharmed.

You say that scars are a mark of survival/strength and would be apart of their ideal version but, by the only account of how he got it, it is a source of shame for the Raikage and would not be his ideal version. It seems like it was a source of weakness more than anything, it gave Naruto clues on how to defeat him. So how is this ideal version decided? If its an ideal version there would be no clues or indication of injuries to give an advantage to an opponent. But so far this has not been the case for the Raikage or Hanzo for that matter.

It seems to me you are still saying the same thing about chackra if it doesn't deplete the same way as a living ninja, if they don't need food, or rest, then there shouldn't be a problem with Nagato and he shouldn't need to suck up chakra from the Tails to replenish his, regardless of how he died. He should be fully charged and ready to go the moment he is resurrected (and he should be more mobile); This is his "Ideal Version". For him to come back in the state that he is not an ideal version by any stretch, and skewers your theory on that. Either they all come back as an Ideal Version of themselves (chakra included)or they don't, there should be no cherry picking on how they come back or what version comes back.

Look closely at http://www.fandom.com/manga/naruto/view/328/naruto -vs.-itachi. chapter 528 page 4. If we are to take the coloring as fact, or even the design, That is NOT Akatsuki garb Itachi and Nagato were wearing, even though Itachi started his final fight wearing the patterned cloak he didn't finish with it. And Nagato was practically naked when he died but was put to rest in his patterned cloak. They both were resurrected in this non- patterned different colored cloak. Then look back further to when Kabuto resurrected all the Akatsuki corpses none of them are in their patterned cloak. But others that were resurrected are in their battle garb or whatever garb they died in. Pretty inconsistent.

None of what you say explains why Nagato has no shoes, the guy died with no clothes on how is it he comes back with everything but shoes? Surely he can't be the slowest member of the resurrected people if that's what you are basing it on; although I don't recall seeing her feet, are you telling me Granny Chio is faster than him? And she is resurrected as an old lady but is at her peak as far as strength and ability? Why not have her return as a younger version of herself with all of her acquired skills and knowledge. If it holds true the way you explain it then the opposite should be true as well. This does not seem like an ideal version in any sense of the word. And doesn't explain why he had no shoes other than to emphasize the fact that his feet were still damaged. By your theory all slow ninja that are resurrected should have no shoes.

I can kind of follow along with the explanation of how chackra works, but only to a point. Yes chackra uses a set amount per jutsu, the stronger the jutsu the more chackra needed. And it should always be the same amount for that type of jutsu (ie if you are summoning Gamabunta you woud always use the same amount to summon him, and it would be a different amount for every toad like a frequency you dial it up or down to get the desired toad). However, if we agree that Nagato died from depleting his jutsu, ( which means he didn't have enough to support the basic functions to remain alive, like breathing etc..which doesn't take up a lot of chackra)and we follow your theory that seems to affect only "him", then he shouldn't have enough to perform any summonings or any of his gravitional jutsu prior to him replenishing his chackra (technically he shouldn't be able to do that either as it should use chackra to perform this jutsu as well). But we know this is not the case because he made two summons and used his gravitional jutsu to fight Naruto and Bee as well as put out Itachi's flame before being replenished. Your theory would mean that he used up his chackra (physical, spiritual. etc..) prior to his death and should have returned with absolutely nothing. But then you throw in "Ideal Version" which contradicts the whole chackra theory. Its either one or the other. But if its both or more then you can see the inconsistencies in your explanation and this jutsu.

All of your explanations have too many holes in them to convince me otherwise. This jutsu has too many inconsistencies and is a "Deus ex Machina" that aims to drive a plot without explaining exactly how it works. And until I get an explanation that covers all of these holes I am sticking with that.

Posted by edawg 3 years ago

Quoting Xaio QuoltSpectacular argument edawg, just trowing in my 2 cents here

That makes this jutsu look like a build a bear workshop. Just putting parts and clothes together.


Ha..Build a Bear is a perfect analogy!

Posted by edawg 3 years ago

@Edawg
In my first post I stated that I thought it resurrected the body only to it's ideal version, I later clarified more by posting what I meant by the phrase ideal version. I don't appreciate that you ignored the limitations I had placed on the phrase and ran away with it the way you did. It didn't address my theory at all when you did so, as your statements were completely outside the scope of what I had proposed.

That being said what you pointed out about Nagato's feet made me reconsider at least one part of my stance. I no longer believe it resurrects their body to my definition of their ideal version. My opinion was slightly tainted by how I would have liked it to be, and wasn't really taking in all the facts. I think it is much more likely that it resurrects their body to something along the lines of what the matrix referred to as residual self image - how you know yourself to be more or less.


I still maintain my stance on how it reacts with the soul and how it deals with chakra though.

Actually I believe it is you who is confusing mobility with mobile. Mobile is a yes/no scenario like you described. Mobility is a measurement and when the term is used while discussing tactics or strategy it not only can be, but usually is pretty much the exact same thing as speed. For example 'what's the extent of this unit's mobility' could be stated as 'how far can it go in this time', or 'how long will it take it to get there', or 'what is it's rate of speed' A car has more mobility than a bicycle.. because it's faster.

As for why Nagato didn't have shoes on: I don't know, I never claimed to know, how does whether or not he had shoes on affect his chakra and or hair color?

As for what I was saying about the chakra being based on a percentage rather than the amount.. First off I believe that Nagato had an amount of chakra that was far superior to Naruto's just based on the sheer power of his jutsus and the number of them he did. Secondly I have no idea what percentage of chakra you must have to die, but it seems fairly likely to me to be higher than zero. So to explain my theory a little better I'm going to throw some random numbers out there that I am not claiming to be accurate in any way. Let's say that when you drop below 5% chakra remaining you die. If we say that Kakashi has 10,000 max chakra and that his raikiri uses 1300 chakra. Below 5% chakra (500 chakra) he wouldn't have enough chakra to do a raikiri. Now let's say Nagato has 500,000 max chakra and that his universal pull uses 3,000 chakra. 5% of his max would be 25,000 chakra - more than 2 1/2 times kakashi's max chakra, plenty enough to do jutsus, but not enough to live on.

As for why you disagree with my theory, I never once claimed that it filled in all the holes, and was the answer for every little oddity that was associated with the jutsu. My theory was focused on two things and two things only, one of which I have amended. So basically you are disagreeing with me because my theory doesn't address any of the things that I never once claimed it did.

Posted by Almightywood 3 years ago

@Almightywood: My apologies I do believe I glossed over what you said about Ideal Version. It was unintentional and I can be a little brusque when sharing my opinion. Thanks for pointing that out. That is something I can agree with.

That being said I still stand by my definition of mobility. Your definition of how far something goes in this time or how long will it take refers to velocity which is distance by time. A car does not have more mobility than a bicycle. A car can accelerate faster and have an overall faster velocity than a bicycle but mobility is different. If a bicycle is traveling at 20mph and a car is traveling at 5mph ( assuming there are no issues with either vehicle) does that now make the bicycle more mobile than the car? Nope, so the opposite should be true as well.
Now give the car a flat. It can still get up to 5 or even 20mph but now it will take longer, it will not be able to turn as well or stop as well, or achieve its top speed; now the bicycle is more mobile than the car because the car's mobility is limited. It cannot perform the way it was intended, even though it may be able to eventually achieve the same speed as before, while the bicycle has no problems functioning the way it is supposed to. So speed plays only a tiny role in mobility.
Now take two fast moving objects like Naruto and the Raikage you can't say one is more mobile than the other because, they are operating like they are intended to, with no injuries that affect their movement. But one is faster than the other by speed, quickness, velocity, and acceleration. But they are both mobile.

My argument about the shoes just goes to bolster my opinion about his feet still being injured (which I believe you initially thought were okay). I saw no reason why he would be the only one to come back with no shoes other than that. That just lead into the uniforms everyone was wearing and why they would come back mixed between battle garb and a cloak that was not a part of their uniform (as far as I can tell). This in turn lead me to pointing out the inconsistencies in this jutsu.

I think we may be arguing the same point about the chackra but I am not sure. I see what you are saying. My explanation was somewhat similar but not quite like yours. I look at it like calories; if you have 2 people that are roughly the same with similar metabolism, for argument sake lets say they burn the same amount of calories in a day (1,000). This is the amount they need to sustain life. Now take one of those people and have him start working out and building muscle, he will start burning more calories in a day let's say (2,000), however he still only needs to burn (1000) to maintain his life. While that extra 1000 can go to some other use. His necessary amount of calories will not change just because he put on muscles. It just means he will go through them faster.
Or to put it more figuratively (for instance)consider chackra like a body of water. When you are young your chackra is about as big as a pond at this stage, say you will need 50% of that pond to summon a creature. Then you grow and so does your chackra now its as big as an ocean. You will still need only 50% of that pond size chackra (which is now 1% of your total chackra)to summon the same creature. The amount of chakra used hasn't changed but your percentage has.

Now I don't know how chackra works but I can only assume that unless you push your self to the limit you would stop being able to use chackra before you lose the ability to survive. Basic life functions should be the minimum amount of chackra needed for anything, even regular people have this, when you start using jutsu you will need more chackra, if you use your chackra beyond the minimum needed to sustain life you die. Which is why I think that if Nagato used up all of his chackra to the point of death then he should have none left when he returned, under your theory of how the edo tensei works with chackra, this in turn contradicts your Ideal Version Theory. Which is part of my confusion.

Posted by edawg 3 years ago

@Edawg
I will try to point out the things that led me to develop my theory since it may help to clear up some confusion.

When first seeing the discussions on how edo tensai worked, the gradually accepted explanation was that it revived you to how you were when you died. This seemed wrong to me since most ninjas die in battle and therefore would not be in any shape to fight. Even if they managed to live long enough to die of old age, how deadly could they be at that point? If they were revived in either state it would basically make the jutsu more of a sideshow act at a carnival than any sort of credible threat.


I therefore came up with the theory that it revived them at their ideal version by which I meant their body would be from the point in their lives where it was the most capable, while still having access to all the knowledge and techniques they had gained over the entire course of their lifetime.


Well Nagato came back with white hair and my theory was shot in the foot.
I didn't really think about it again until I noticed that Itachi wasn't suffering from any of the injuries/illness that he had when he had died. Well it can't be that they are revived in the state that they died in then.

Once Nagato absorbed that chakra it became apparent that it was lack of chakra that left him in the state he was in, rather than any sort of physical malady. Well why doesn't it restore your chakra? Doesn't chakra come from in your body?

Why do some people have their maladies removed while others keep them?

In order for this jutsu to have any rhyme or reason to it, there has to be something categorically different about the ailments.

The first set of categories I figured out was that it can treat maladies of the body, but not of the soul. It makes sense, it repairs the body and restores the soul, upon activation. Chakra is spirit energy, spirit=soul, booyah. Nagato died from lack of chakra, Nagato's the abnormality in my theory, with the addition of the categories I just figured out I was back on track, or so I thought.

You pointing out everything you did made me pay attention to appearance as well, and I figured it must be based on how others remember them more or less. Still not quite sure about this, though my latest theory on how it deals with the body may cover it.

You persevering on Nagato's feet threw my ideal version body theory out the window for good. After pondering on why some physical maladies would be restored and others wouldn't. I came to the conclusion that All recent maladies seem to vanish, while long term injuries - such as the Raikage's scar, and Nagato's feet - remain.

Well there's a lot of room for interpretation there, how long term must an injury be before it isn't cured by this jutsu?

Well I guess it would have to be an injury long enough for it to be recognized as part of who they are. But who would be the one to determine that?

If it was themselves they'd just say they never had any weaknesses.
It'd have to be a way that their appearance and whatnot was determined by themselves only without anything consciously.

The matrix popped into my head at that moment, in the scene where Neo is in the room with Morpheus and they discuss how Neo is using his old appearance even though he knows it to be different now. Residual self image they called it. It wasn't anything he chose to be, it was just how he "knew" himself subconsciously . Now something like that seems to fit right in with all the abnormalities in which physical maladies are restored.


Now there are two parts to edo tensai (not counting the kunai knife which is a separate jutsu) the activation, and the maintenance parts. Based on my extrapolations I think it goes something like this:

Upon activation ET summons blah's soul. Blah's soul puts it's body back together. Now bear in mind that edo tensai never once determined what state this being would be in upon activation. It was pretty much all based on the soul. At this point ET goes into maintenance mode: basically ensuring that neither body nor soul worsen from that point on. If someone has a limb cut off, it grows back. If their chakra is depleted, it gets repleted.

Now as for how much chakra it takes to stay alive:

I like the idea of using a pool to represent a chakra pool.
To carry on the analogy, your body would be the ecosystem that lives off of your water. Let's say that in your pool's small state, that it has an ecosystem that consisted of 6 trees and their inhabiting wildlife. If there was a drought or something and the water dwindled, let's say that what 1 tree would consume on a general day is enough to keep your ecosystem viable. Now let's say that your pool has expanded to 20 times its previous size. Your ecosystem should have expanded as well going up to 120 trees, with a minimum of 20 trees worth needed. If you were to drop down to one tree's worth, then they would all die. True potentially up to 6 could survive off of that one tree's worth of water, but all 120 are going to be drinking off of it, so there won't be enough for any of them to survive. As your chakra increases, your body becomes more hardy to deal with the increased chakra flow. After all too much chakra flow can damage your body (there are references to this that I don't feel like finding atm).

Posted by Almightywood 3 years ago