Okay. I was thinking on the way home from Knoxville, and I wondered something. If Ichigo had never had Rukia's shinigami powers, hypothetically, would his shi kai and ban kai have been the same as Rukia's? Or would they have been like Zangetsu?

Well, Ichigo DOES have a high spirit power....
When Rukia gave Ichigo all of her shinigami abilities, it basically gave him the sword Zangetsu.
If Rukia never gave Ichigo shinigami powers, we wouldn't even have the ability to wield a shinigami sword. (damn, i forgot what you call it.... I think it was Zanpaktou... or something like that)
But if he was a shinigami; with his spirit power, it would've probably been the same amount of strength and ability as Rukia's, or possibly slightly stronger.... In my opinion.

Well, Ichigo DOES have a high spirit power....
When Rukia gave Ichigo all of her shinigami abilities, it basically gave him the sword Zangetsu.
If Rukia never gave Ichigo shinigami powers, we wouldn't even have the ability to wield a shinigami sword. (damn, i forgot what you call it.... I think it was Zanpaktou... or something like that)
But if he was a shinigami; with his spirit power, it would've probably been the same amount of strength and ability as Rukia's, or possibly slightly stronger.... In my opinion.

Well, I mean, it had said that Ichigo had the ability to become a shinigami all along, but recieving Rukia's powers only made it more obvious. She didn't give him Zangetsu, only her shinigami abilities. What I'd meant was, when Byakuya and Renji came to retrieve Rukia, Byakuya smashed Rukia's powers, that she'd given to Ichigo. But in the manga, it's recently been revealed that Rukia has Shikai. and that makes me wonder if Ichigo had never fought Byakuya and Renji, would he have obtained Rukia's shikai? Provided he neved needed to discover Zangetsu.

I think i get what u mean. If Ichigo had kept Rukia's powers I think that theoretically yes he would have kept her shikai and eventually bankai. BUT it seems that a sword is linked to the shinigami who owns it. so although he would have her shikai, he wouldn't be able to use it because it wouldn't respond to him since he is not its rightful owner.
another theory would be that rukia gave ichigo her powers but he developed his own sword. since the whole shikai and bankai business is all about the Zanpaktou's, the answer might be no cuz all along he had his own sword. so even if byakuya hadn't removed rukia's spiritual force then he would still have zangetsu not rukia's...
thats my opinion and i think id go with the second one a bit more...

Well, Ichigo DOES have a high spirit power....
When Rukia gave Ichigo all of her shinigami abilities, it basically gave him the sword Zangetsu.
If Rukia never gave Ichigo shinigami powers, we wouldn't even have the ability to wield a shinigami sword. (damn, i forgot what you call it.... I think it was Zanpaktou... or something like that)
But if he was a shinigami; with his spirit power, it would've probably been the same amount of strength and ability as Rukia's, or possibly slightly stronger.... In my opinion.
Are you sure about that, I don't think you can give an accurate answer until we see what kind of bankai his dad has. I think that Ichigo would still have the same sword and bankai for the simple fact that he started with a different sword, didn't know the name. The sword he had back then was not Zangetsu, it was just a normal spirit slayer, when Kuchiki Byakuya severed Ichigo's connection to his spirit force all ties to Rukia were lost. He had to go and seek out his own shinigami powers, which he already had from his dad. Them having similar bankai's is just conicidence or maybe a symbol of how close each other are to each other, but it has nothing to do with Rukia giving him her powers. In fact he took her powers technically, she only planned to give him a little taste temporarily.

Actually, Rukia had close to nothing to do with it, wel I don't believe so.
Since Ichigo had that power inside of him the whole time, and when Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Shinigami powers within Ichigo, Zangetsu was left, sice it was there the whole time, if anything, Rukia's power acted as a shield to prevent Zangetsu from activating and then being destroyed, leaing Ichigo with no option but to become a Hollow

Actually, Rukia had close to nothing to do with it, wel I don't believe so.
Since Ichigo had that power inside of him the whole time, and when Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Shinigami powers within Ichigo, Zangetsu was left, sice it was there the whole time, if anything, Rukia's power acted as a shield to prevent Zangetsu from activating and then being destroyed, leaing Ichigo with no option but to become a Hollow

i get what ur saying, but actually, i wouldnt really saying that rukia's power acted as a shield. I mean his own powers were not inactive because rukia's power was there. infact in certain times it activated on its own, like when fighting renji, his spiritual power leaked out. urahara explained that ichigo's powers were hidden when byakuya was destroying rukia's. even if hers wasn't there then probably it would have still been hidden...I think. Ichigo had to become a hollow because he didn't know how to release his own powers on his own in the beginning.

Actually, Rukia had close to nothing to do with it, wel I don't believe so.
Since Ichigo had that power inside of him the whole time, and when Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Shinigami powers within Ichigo, Zangetsu was left, sice it was there the whole time, if anything, Rukia's power acted as a shield to prevent Zangetsu from activating and then being destroyed, leaing Ichigo with no option but to become a Hollow
i did not get u... well, i was also thinking about this topic long ago. is ichigo's zanpakutou before was from rukia? or is it rukias? but i think not because if it ws, rukia wont be able to finish that arankkaru on that manga. so i really think that after ichigo got rukia's shinigami power, his zanpakutou was already zangetsu. and also, zangetsu told him how to retrieved his zanpakutou, w/ is zangetsu, so he had formed him in shikai and bankai form. and anyways, ichigo's father, kurosaki issan..(i forgot the name) was a shinigami, not just a death god but a captain himself, so there's a possibilility that ichigo can posses such high spirit power...

Dude, you're the one that people don't get it, take some grammar or English lessons.
o.o
But yeah, like I was saying, I don't know about that, since the energy that was released, that energy was most likely his Hollow coming out, since if you payed attention to Ichigo in the fight with Byakuya and renji, he changed, it was like his Hollow didn't have to fight Ichigo, but was able to come out a bit using Rukia's power to shield himself so Ichigo couldn't do anything about it.
He never became a Hollow, his other side just came close to coming out, that's all, the mak was there but that form that we saw, was his true form, but the mask came off, so that means the transformation never occured properly when Ichiogo had to release his own Shinigami power.

Dude, you're the one that people don't get it, take some grammar or English lessons

u seriously don't have to be rude about it. If you don't get what (s)he is trying to say then ask again or just leave it, but I kind of noticed u've done the same thing in other posts too and u just insult people and tell them to take english classes. This forum doesn't say anything about having to speak proper english so seriously just don't insult others..

well, i was also thinking about this topic long ago. is ichigo's zanpakutou before was from rukia? or is it rukias?
Every shinigami has their own Zanpaktou in them. So if it does break then it doesn't appear for anyone else except the person who owns it. When Ichigo first became a sub. shinigami, he took Rukia's powers but his sword was still Zangetsu. Rukia's zanpaktou probably just became dormant until she got her powers back. The sword she has now is probably the same one she had before (the power inside it and everything) just the physical exterior changed since the other was broken. So no, Ichigo's zanpakyou before wasn't Rukia's, it was Zangetsu from the beginning but he didn't know how to use it. Thats really what I think till now from what Ive watched and read.

good thinking, sabakunogaara. unlike teny here who has a go with ppl who dont get what he says, your post really clears me up. arigatou.

your post really clears me up. arigatou.

no problem, glad to have helped, but im not sure about it lol its just a speculation ;)

Hey, I tell people to get grammar lessons when they do something that breaks the rules, more than once mind you.
and you're just another one of those idiots who speaks a couple of words of Japanese and thinks that they're so cool since they can.
Well, hate to break it to you, but that's what n00bs do.
and Gaara...
Meh, don't have a reason to be upset with you, you're making sense, but.. Yeah, since Ichigo had Rukia's power, HIS power was not activated, and probably never would have been if he never got Rukia's power, but since he wanted to go and get her, Urahara helped him unlock them, and if he unlocked his own power..
Well there's no need to say what would happen.
but I will anyway.
XD
Like the Hollow inside of him won't let Ichigo die anyway, and the fact that he didn't when he fought Renji and Byakuya is because his Hollow was acting for him.
Although he was able to move freely around inside of Ichigo without being noticed.

i think zangetsu is inherent upon him being a full-blood shinigami. but his powers were dormant until rukia awakened them.

isnt the soul slayer different for each person? I think of rukia's powers as a stimulant to awaken ichigo's powers even more after he contacted that ghost girl in the beginning. If ichigo was a shinigami naturally then his zanpaktou woulld still be zangetsu. Rukia's soul slayer is her own and no one can jack that. He only took her ability to become a shinigami so his own soul slayer could be revealed.
Question thats off topic: if shiba died, doesnt he get reincarnated into the world? then that could mean that ichigo is his reincarnation right?

isnt the soul slayer different for each person? I think of rukia's powers as a stimulant to awaken ichigo's powers even more after he contacted that ghost girl in the beginning. If ichigo was a shinigami naturally then his zanpaktou woulld still be zangetsu. Rukia's soul slayer is her own and no one can jack that. He only took her ability to become a shinigami so his own soul slayer could be revealed.
Question thats off topic: if shiba died, doesnt he get reincarnated into the world? then that could mean that ichigo is his reincarnation right?
who said he gets reincarnated? where do u guys get this stuff!? how come I never see it!

Hey, I tell people to get grammar lessons when they do something that breaks the rules, more than once mind you.
and you're just another one of those idiots who speaks a couple of words of Japanese and thinks that they're so cool since they can.
Well, hate to break it to you, but that's what n00bs do.

the one who said "idiot" is more idiotic.
i dont need your opinion, thank you.

and yeah, sbkg, there's no assurance that ichigo is kaein's reincarnated self.

and yeah, sbkg, there's no assurance that ichigo is kaein's reincarnated self.

oh thank god, so im not the only one who doesnt know about this reincarnation thingy...coz honestly NEVER heard it

...
kaien reincarnate to ichigo is something aloto f people have been saying, but doesn mean it's true,,
anyway, on the topic, a zanpakutoh is usually based on how big ur reiatsu..that's why zangetsu is so big..
hmm, if rukia never lend him power that fateful day, i believe his power and sword will still be big..
remember the shattered shaft incident? his powers are completely gone, coutesy of kuchiki byakuya. but inside him, he has that power inside, but not awaken..so kisuke trained him to tap into his power, activate that reiatsu..ya..