Ok, I know for a fact that there are a pretty decent amount of religious people on NL, and don't get me wrong, it's not like I hate religon or anything, but I do hate how a system of Ideals from thousands of years ago still manages to make such a rucas in modern society. I'm not saying that people should abandon religion, but does it really have to aplie to almost every dicussion or matter at hand? The bible was writen quite a while ago, in a pretty shitty time to live, things have changed, and yet it tires so hard to continue to grasp at the moral and logical fiber of everyday life, weather it's Gay rights, Heavy Metal music, or violence in video games, religion just won't shut up, if you want to be religous fine, I don't hate you for that, but if I feel that I'm ok with burning in hell for all eternity, just let me damnit, and leave me and my vices alone.

Christians see the Bible as Gods words. God is omnipotent and omniscient, meaning that he was all power and all knowledge. To say that his words words and laws no meaning don't work in modern times is to say that he didnt know how life would be now, which would be denying Gods existence.

Christians see the Bible as Gods words. God is omnipotent and omniscient, meaning that he was all power and all knowledge. To say that his words words and laws no meaning don't work in modern times is to say that he didnt know how life would be now, which would be denying Gods existence.

You forgot Omnipresent. :)

ok, so are either of you debating against me, or with me?

ok, so are either of you debating against me, or with me?

if your talking about pwnzers he's just stating his own qualities.

I do think the bible is out-dated though, not to offend religous people but what is the logic in living your life by something that was written so long ago.

I agree that Fundamentalists and other people who have a literal interpretation of the Bible are getting out of hand. However, you have to realize that the Bible wasn't written to die out. If you look past minute details and don't believe all of the often ridiculous stories of the Bible, you'll find basic moral guidance. Mainly, treating others with kindness (which, ironically, many religious people aren't doing anymore). I don't think it's meant to be a source of logical thinking. It's meant to be a source of virtuous thinking. You don't apply religion to logical fields like math and science (not that some haven't tried), but you do apply it to personal things, i.e. Social problems

I think that the bible is in serious need of revision...First of all...there's so many holes in it that it loses all credibility...Also...it is a written document. People wrote it...I think that the bible is an excellent FICTISCIOUS story. But nothing more. I think that it's about time people found a new cause for existance...

if your talking about pwnzers he's just stating his own qualities.

I do think the bible is out-dated though, not to offend religous people but what is the logic in living your life by something that was written so long ago.

Thats the thing, God's words don't have an expiry date.

I think that the bible is in serious need of revision...First of all...there's so many holes in it that it loses all credibility...Also...it is a written document. People wrote it...I think that the bible is an excellent FICTISCIOUS story. But nothing more. I think that it's about time people found a new cause for existance...

33% of the world will argue otherwise, the Bible is very real to them. And how do you correct something that was 'written' by someone with absolute knowledge?

@ Thread, The Modern christian doesnt look at the bible the way old school catholicism and anabaptism did when it was around, These days Christians look at it as a book of morals, such as the Ten Comandments, and things like that, Modern logic and the bible are close to the same in most areas. Lets take a look.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.

This simply says we should hold our parents in high respect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Dont kill people...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

Dont cheta on your wife // Husband
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

Dont take other peoples stuff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR

Dont spread lies about people
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Do you not have these morals in your life?

I dont know what the bible says and dosnt say,i dont know what the caran says or dosnt,i dont know what the torah says or dosnt,but i know its something i should read. If I had read the bible then I would relise what it says but ill base it off my knolage. People say god made us all equal,so then why do we kill or protest aganst eachother, why cant dudes marry dudes,and why can chicks marry chicks.The bible says stuff about not killing,yet the christians made one of the biggest genocides.And about the 10th comandmint,it says not to lie,but what proof of god,what proof of his power of redemption,or being the right hand of god?

WHAT IS THIS?
ppl of this modern world are totally embraced and covered by science and logic...
they even deny the fact that someone superior up there made them...
philosophy dont only view things on logic...

I dont know what the bible says and dosnt say,i dont know what the caran says or dosnt,i dont know what the torah says or dosnt,but i know its something i should read. If I had read the bible then I would relise what it says but ill base it off my knolage. People say god made us all equal,so then why do we kill or protest aganst eachother, why cant dudes marry dudes,and why can chicks marry chicks.The bible says stuff about not killing,yet the christians made one of the biggest genocides.And about the 10th comandmint,it says not to lie,but what proof of god,what proof of his power of redemption,or being the right hand of god?
when's that? you tell me...

I think that the bible is in serious need of revision...First of all...there's so many holes in it that it loses all credibility...Also...it is a written document. People wrote it...I think that the bible is an excellent FICTISCIOUS story. But nothing more. I think that it's about time people found a new cause for existance...

have you read it?

Thats the thing, God's words don't have an expiry date.



33% of the world will argue otherwise, the Bible is very real to them. And how do you correct something that was 'written' by someone with absolute knowledge?

ah ha, but that is where the problem begins, the bible and all other religous documents were never writen by god, they were writen by the hand of man, and man is flawed, he twists things to his own interpritation, and thats if you even belive in these so called "prophets", and if the bible is so infaleable, then why has the church changed thier stand point on issues over the years? apperantly God made few mistakes in the old days...

@ Thread, The Modern christian doesnt look at the bible the way old school catholicism and anabaptism did when it was around, These days Christians look at it as a book of morals, such as the Ten Comandments, and things like that, Modern logic and the bible are close to the same in most areas. Lets take a look.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.

This simply says we should hold our parents in high respect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Dont kill people...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY

Dont cheta on your wife // Husband
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

Dont take other peoples stuff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commandment
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR

Dont spread lies about people
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Do you not have these morals in your life?


first off, I like to think at least to an extent I do,and further more, if that was really the way things were, I wouldn't have to listen to crazy religious people spewing on about violence in video games, or Gay marrage, or for that matter, Marylin Manson wouldn't have crazy protesters outside his concert, I'm not saying every person takes it to far, but it does get taken to far, far to often

WHAT IS THIS?
ppl of this modern world are totally embraced and covered by science and logic...
they even deny the fact that someone superior up there made them...
philosophy dont only view things on logic...

true enough, however, the debate was not weather or not Relgion had taken over modern logic or not, the debate is about weather or not relious influence is really necisary or not, it's true we generally go with the logical explanantion, but off in the distance whenever mankind makes some kind of leap, religion has whine about it, and when we're not taking steps to better our existance, the church (or religous offshoots) have to make everything a rediculus moral issue, like the current state of affairs concerning gay marrage, why exeactly should the church have any real voice in the matter? it doesn't concern them, it's not like if homosexuals are allowed to get legally married, there suddenly going to wage war on the church, but the church has to bitch anyway, thats my point, is the fact that the church still tries it's hardest to but in when people have no desire to hear from "the lord" on the matter

thats my point, is the fact that the church still tries it's hardest to but in when people have no desire to hear from "the lord" on the matter

If there is a god why do churches represent his opinion? The bible is a story book filled with morals to help people be nice to each other. I don't think saying the bible is the word of god can be related to this thread becuase it was written by man.


WHAT IS THIS?
ppl of this modern world are totally embraced and covered by science and logic...
they even deny the fact that someone superior up there made them...
philosophy dont only view things on logic...


are you suggesting we give up logic... Please get help.

There is nothing anywhere that remotely justifies and existance of " someone superior up there" so what need is their to deny it.

If i told you all that there is a giant teapot in space that crated the universe you say I was mad yet becuase a man wrote in it a book it's perfectly believable?

WHAT IS THIS?
ppl of this modern world are totally embraced and covered by science and logic...
they even deny the fact that someone superior up there made them...
philosophy dont only view things on logic...
Sorry. The person who created me was my mom. With some help from my dad. I was not created by a god. My ancestors were not created by a god. They evolved from monkies.

when's that? you tell me...

When was the genocide? The crusades.

When was the genocide? The crusades.

yeah, I have to agree with you on that, Shirangan Eyes, pick up a manga called preist, it's obviously fictional, but it deffinatly exposes the church in several areas

When was the genocide? The crusades.

Um, what?

Genocide - The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Last time I checked, it was a war against the Turkish Muslims. Not, people of Christian faith riding into Turkish towns and slaughtering it's population.

Now, you're right in saying that Christians supposedly don't support killing and the whatnot, but the Crusades certainly weren't a genocide.

Here's my thought: I think that God has no mind. He is not evil, nor good; He is neutral. He just does whatever like a machine, without thinking. Oh, britain doesn't have many places that sell manga or anime. So, how can I get my hands on preist?(Back on the topic) So, in theory, praying won't change anything. The idea of 'God' was made up, most likely, as a scam or joke but is now a reason to live for many. Maybe it was made up as a reason to live, the person who made it up convinceing him/herself that there is a god.

dam most ppl in here go off edge becuz of what they believe or not believe.......well im inbetween if thats possible cuz i dont believe every word in the bible is true cuz its man-made and men can liers and decetefull twist meanings and words over time to better suit there personal interest...........and science can explain much about spirtual events and such.........well u kno what im saying

Ok. Not everyone who picks up a Bible and believes in god is a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian. In my opinion, the Bible wasn't meant to be a literal guide to daily life. In the outrageous stories, there are morals. Morals are a little outdated in some areas, yes, but the larger ones that people are ignoring would probably help life. Y'know, the ones about respecting others, and helping others. Things like video games are a little irrelevant because the Bible wasn't written in a time where they existed. Religion is not necessary for logic, but it can help people ethically. As for the violent video game debate, there have been many scientific studies on it, and from what I've heard, overexposure to it at a young age is bad.

Ok. Not everyone who picks up a Bible and believes in god is a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian. In my opinion, the Bible wasn't meant to be a literal guide to daily life. In the outrageous stories, there are morals. Morals are a little outdated in some areas, yes, but the larger ones that people are ignoring would probably help life. Y'know, the ones about respecting others, and helping others. Things like video games are a little irrelevant because the Bible wasn't written in a time where they existed. Religion is not necessary for logic, but it can help people ethically. As for the violent video game debate, there have been many scientific studies on it, and from what I've heard, overexposure to it at a young age is bad.

well, I agree with your first point, the bible should stand as a moral guide, not a logic guide, and it's true that not every christian is crazy and protests everything, I'm not calling for the downfall of the christian faith, I'm just saying, that in the world we live in, it shouldn't be able to so heavily impact things that it has nothing to do with, as for video games being bad for kids, I actually did a report on it when I was younger, it's true that some tests have shown that video games at young age can be bad for children, however the problem is, is that in other studies, that were almost exactly the same, it showed to no negitive affects, and to infact promote a childs imagination, so what does it mean? different people take things differently, and for the 38% of test subjects who did show adverse affects to playing video games, well you can always just take the thing away from them, and it's not like playing video games gave them mind altering tumors, or brain washed them into killing thier perants, a slight jump in aggresive behavior was the only real adverse affect of any note, I've been playing video games since before I remeber, and in that time, the only time I became rage filled from playing video games, is when I can't beat one.

Um, what?

Genocide - The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Last time I checked, it was a war against the Turkish Muslims. Not, people of Christian faith riding into Turkish towns and slaughtering it's population.

Now, you're right in saying that Christians supposedly don't support killing and the whatnot, but the Crusades certainly weren't a genocide.
hey thanks..

crusades were by the Inquisition, you can check it out..and it's by the catholics..catholics and christians are different, just as protestant and irish are different..

hey thanks..

crusades were by the Inquisition, you can check it out..and it's by the catholics..catholics and christians are different, just as protestant and irish are different..

Thanks for the attempt at a history lesson, but you're only half right. I understand the difference between Catholicism and Christianity, but read this. All of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Ah yes, well I admit that I'm fairly ignorant to the whole violent videogame issue. I think that that's more of a personal dispute, though. If parents don't want their kids playing those games, then it's their decision, religious or not. I DO think that religion is getting out of hand in politics, though, as well as other large areas. The whole Intelligent Design issue really REALLY pissed me off. When religion starts fighting science, you know that there's something wrong. That's why I assert my belief of a loose interpretation of the Bible. Keep religion to your personal lives, that's what I say.

I don't know why there are so many atheist in the world today.


I agree with the rules and I don't know what so hard about following them.

Honor your Mother and Father, that is not hard unless you are those whiny rebels that yell at their parents going " D*** IT, I HATE YOU!!!! YOUR RUINING MY LIFE!!!!!!!!! WHY CAN'T I HAVE SEX WITH BILLY!!!!!!!! "

It is not hard to KEEP YOUR HANDS OWN YOUR OWN POSSESIONS. Some people obviously can't do that but have to drop to the low lvl of stealing.

Keep your mouth shut and don't spread rumors. Its not that hard! It can be hard if it is juicy but HANG IN THERE! :)

Don't kill anyone. Even if you come home early from work and find your wife on the couch getting screwed by your best friend.

Don't sleep with other people's wife's or husbands!!!!!!! You cna actually save your life by not flirting with your best friend's wife and having sex with her later.





I agree with the rules and they aren't so hard but others are quite hard to follow. I don't see the point in giving up because you don't believe or can't see with your own 2 eyes.


Bible does relate to our life and saying we should forget it because it is old is redundant.

Why just forget William Shakespears! He is just a old hag anyways! His poems are old and we should forget them! :sarcasm:

Christians see the Bible as Gods words. God is omnipotent and omniscient, meaning that he was all power and all knowledge. To say that his words words and laws no meaning don't work in modern times is to say that he didnt know how life would be now, which would be denying Gods existence.Kudos... extremely well put

Ok, I know for a fact that there are a pretty decent amount of religious people on NL, and don't get me wrong, it's not like I hate religon or anything, but I do hate how a system of Ideals from thousands of years ago still manages to make such a rucas in modern society. I'm not saying that people should abandon religion, but does it really have to aplie to almost every dicussion or matter at hand? The bible was writen quite a while ago, in a pretty shitty time to live, things have changed, and yet it tires so hard to continue to grasp at the moral and logical fiber of everyday life, weather it's Gay rights, Heavy Metal music, or violence in video games, religion just won't shut up, if you want to be religous fine, I don't hate you for that, but if I feel that I'm ok with burning in hell for all eternity, just let me damnit, and leave me and my vices alone.
I can understand where you're coming from.
I myself am Christian, and even I think some of the rules are quite old-fashioned for this world that is now. But you must remember that these rules were created over 2000 years ago; and this earth was created by God (or so religious people believe) more than thousands of years ago. God created the earth to be perfect in the beginning, and sin corrupted it. It is because humans had not followed the rules that God laid out, that the world became to what it is today.
I'm not saying you have to believe everything that I believe, and you might be pissed off or sick of the fact that there are Christians saying, "that's bad; that's evil; against God, or whatever". But just remember that just like Christians have the freedom of speech, so does everyone else.
Every Friday when I go home, I see some person holding up a sign by this busy street, that says something that is insulting or disgraceful to Prez. Bush. I believe that Bush is a good president, but there are those who say otherwise. They're excersicing the freedom of speech. No one's stopping them.
All those religious people telling people that stuff is too violent, or evil, or bad, or wrong.....
And yet there are those who are out there saying things that we think is wrong, including insulting the pres. (I personally think he's OK, since he's the only one who had the guts to come out in the open and say he's a Christian)
Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Speech. ^^

Thanks for the attempt at a history lesson, but you're only half right. I understand the difference between Catholicism and Christianity, but read this. All of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

well, they use the name of Christ to fight, and the cross... in the site you gave-
"The Crusades were a series of several military campaigns—usually sanctioned by the Papacy—that took place during the 11th through 13th centuries. Originally, they were Roman Catholic Holy Wars to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims, but some were directed against other Europeans, such as the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople, the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars of southern France and the Northern Crusades."
hey, isn it obvious? (in red)..it wasn't even christian. for one fact, we christians(i dunno if you other christian knows), believe catholic church not christian. even inquisition is ordered by roman catholic church. to catholics out there, it's not that i hate you.. i jus dislike ur methods. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
heck, Heresies, or simply put, christians (pentecostal, or denominations that believe in Holy Spirit) are a problem..coz of the different beliefs. they, the inquisitors are out to keep them away
you know the difference, dun place catholics and christian under the same category.

going back to the topic, Uchiha1412Toshi has said it all..

I don't see what the Crusades have to do with this topic at all. MODERN logic. Not medieval logic, which I think we can all agree was very faulty in general. My view on religion in modern society at this point is this: It's ok in personal lives. Keep it out of politics and science.

ya i know it isn, i just wanna show christians condone violent acts..

Well, so do Catholics... or at least they should... I do... Ach, can't undo the past, and it stains your reputation forever. I just hope we don't do a repeat of the past. That's why religion should be separate from state. That's why it really should make no difference if Bush is Christian or not. Personally, an atheistic president would be preferred, because it helps to ensure that religion and politics don't get mixed.

explain modern logic, please. what is it anyway. the bible contains knowledge far greater than any knowledge or theory humans can come up with

hmm, good question..it's like if someone kills ur best friend, logically, you would go for revenge...but bible disapproves it

This debate is inherently flawed because it assumes that this "modern logic" is an advancement. It assumes that what the Bible says is not true. It assumes that there is a greater sense of morality without the Bible. It assumes quite a bit.

There's nothing more that needs to be said in defense or offense on either part.

I like your post... This debate doesn't make any sense.
There is a reason why humanity didn't abolish religion despite the many proofs of science.
And that's because science can't proove everything..
Pls. correct me if I'm wrong.

you aren't wrong..
science can't prove everything

of course i'm not wrong. even the theory of evolution has a glitch... they haven't even found yet the so-called 'Missing Link'

Oh Jesus no... We're not getting into the "non-proven" parts of science. That's another topic. Take it there. [/mod note]

Yup. Because if science can't prove something, it doesn't mean that religion can. In fact, religion can't "prove" anything, because, and no offense is meant by this, it is playing off the assumption that there is a divine entity in existence, i.e. God.

Most of Christians don’t follow the bible, because people claim it doesn’t agree with Modern logics??????!!!!!!!!. Especially when it’s come to adultery, because almost all of Christian’s girls lose their virginity at very young ages and it’s not considered as a shame behavior. Can you tell me of one religion that not forbidden adultery???????

In UAE the adultery is there, but people are doing it security, because it considered as a shame behavior. In addition, there are a lot of virgin girls who are above 30 years old waiting for men to marry them and yet we are living in modern world like using latest cars and the latest technology.

I don’t know if the bible proves anything, but what I know that the Qur'an proves a lot of things more than 1400 years ago than only new science can prove see the link below, if still don’t want to read it all I can summarize some for you.

That’s mean Qur'an from the God. Note in Qur’an it’s mentioned that the bible is also from the God.

http://discover.islamway.com/articles.php?article_id=20

the bible is important and has everything in it and you can always transfere the old sayings to modern and its right

the bible is important and has everything in it and you can always transfere the old sayings to modern and its right


If you don’t believe me….. There are many English Qur’an translation versions you can read them all to make sure that there is no modifications.

This debate is inherently flawed because it assumes that this "modern logic" is an advancement. It assumes that what the Bible says is not true. It assumes that there is a greater sense of morality without the Bible. It assumes quite a bit.

There's nothing more that needs to be said in defense or offense on either part.

nicely said aztek, first time i agree with u. but if we're saying the bible is the ultimate logic and modern logic is our current minds and our impulses, im sorry but the biblical way wins. meaning since our logic changes with the situation and follows a path in which we take one side. the bible is set. meaning that it doesnt change its mind. so..thats my side on this debate

One question
is this just the bible against modern logic, or religion(as in all religious books) against modern logic? because I am not Christian...and I want to speak on this issue, however I have no authority over the bible, since I havent read it!

I think it should be religion in general. Sure, the majority of people in western civilization have some relationship with the Bible in their religion (if any), but there are other religions, too. Simply put, I think the debate is whether or not religious arguments are valid in the modern world when applied to public affairs. I for one think they're not.

now we must not say absolutely the religion is no way to be considered in deciding for public affairs because if that's the case, we should rule out laws against murder, rape, and stealing, because they are all based on religion. US cannot say it is completely secular because it's laws also follow certain principles of religion. if we cannot resolve some issue then why not use religion? it might help. there are things which we should use religion and things which we should not. to figure that out must be left to us.

No no no. Not killing people may have been based on religion, but the people put it into the religion because it's just one of those things that people know is wrong. Sure, there's the occasional psycho, but there's a reason, I'm sure, that people get queasy at the sight of blood and gore. There are certain mutual morals that people are taught when they're born, regardless of religion. As soon as the beliefs of a certain group of people affect the entirety of a larger group of peole, the government is no longer a true democracy.

*nods* ........... if there were no religions in the world it would be a safer place not as much killing and no one would be harmed :D

No no no. Not killing people may have been based on religion, but the people put it into the religion because it's just one of those things that people know is wrong. Sure, there's the occasional psycho, but there's a reason, I'm sure, that people get queasy at the sight of blood and gore. There are certain mutual morals that people are taught when they're born, regardless of religion. As soon as the beliefs of a certain group of people affect the entirety of a larger group of peole, the government is no longer a true democracy.

and how do we sort out things which originated from religion and morals? remember that morality is purely subjective. some things might be moral to you, but immoral to me, and vice versa. it can also be immoral to others, and moral to some. killing can be justified in many ways, it depends on how your morals go on about it. we should not set aside religion. it can help on some issues.

killing people is religion.........its in every religion. ppl die and kill for it every day...........

that's not true.. in each religion, people that claim to do it are the minority. minority does not equals to religion kills... if that's the case...well, i would be atheist by now

killing people is religion.........its in every religion. ppl die and kill for it every day...........

well, people kill, it's human nature unfortunetly, but that being said, a lot, and I mean a lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion, to quote Ted Nugent

"Religion is only good for two things, installing faulse belief, and starting wars"

while I do think that outlook is a bit extreme, it does hit a nerve, for something like religion that is supposed to if nothing else act as a moral guide be the reason for countless deaths, and extreme acts of violence, it's amazing that it hasn't lost all credance and respect, if a company advocated not eating meat, and living a healthier life, but then it turned out that they owned McDonalds, the company would be sued up the ass, and probably end up going under, well thats esentually what religion does when thay advocate peace and good will towards men, but then somewhere a bus blows up in the name of god....

they have the wrong sense of their religion and God.. they think they are getting rid of evil.. well..i think they are brainwashed, they didn even realize the difference and truth

"Religion is only good for two things, installing faulse belief, and starting wars"



...................... thats all im saying

how could religion not affect your life today?
it has applications everywhere, and its what keeps us sane, faith.
We need it to function everyday in life, whether we recognize it or not

how could religion not affect your life today?
it has applications everywhere, and its what keeps us sane, faith.
We need it to function everyday in life, whether we recognize it or not

I most certainly don't. I'm an aetheist, utterly, and perfectly sane. I function fine in everyday life. So there.

Religion is a belief. A choice. A philosophy. It shouldn't be promoted to others with different beliefs. It shouldn't be shoved down the public's throat. And most importantly, it shouldn't be perverted through the actions of a few religious people. Religion isn't always a bad thing. It gives hope to a lot of people. But that hope is their hope, and it's unique to an individual. Don't go around assuming that others have the same system. Don't assume that your way is right.

Wow alot of atheists in this post by the way I'm christian and I think your talking about the literists or creatists if I am correct

Mostly, those that were brought up on religion believe in it the most. It is hard to get some christians-since-birth to comprehend that the Bible is similar to Greek Mythology. The Bible could have just been a way to explain things, in a more philosophical view than Greek Mythology. But the christian can't see the Bible as anything less than the ultimate truth.

You may have to open your mind beyond science to appreciate the Bible. Still, you have to open it even further to get past the Bible.

or you could just realize that there is no god and read the bible for the STORY it is...sorry if that's a bit harsh but its how i feel.

Yeah. Some people can't even see it as a story. It must be definate truth.

Mostly, those that were brought up on religion believe in it the most. It is hard to get some christians-since-birth to comprehend that the Bible is similar to Greek Mythology. The Bible could have just been a way to explain things, in a more philosophical view than Greek Mythology. But the christian can't see the Bible as anything less than the ultimate truth.
I find this statement insulting. You're generalizing, and assuming. Generalizing that ALL Christians are fundamentalists, and that the Bible isn't anything more than a collection of myths. Y'know, it's funny how much Greek mythology affects modern culture. You can be as atheistic as you want, but just like religious people shouldn't proclaim their beliefs to atheists, atheists shouldn't blatantly disrespect said religious people.

I find this statement insulting. You're generalizing, and assuming. Generalizing that ALL Christians are fundamentalists, and that the Bible isn't anything more than a collection of myths. Y'know, it's funny how much Greek mythology affects modern culture. You can be as atheistic as you want, but just like religious people shouldn't proclaim their beliefs to atheists, atheists shouldn't blatantly disrespect said religious people.
cheers dude..i agree totally..

how could religion not affect your life today?
it has applications everywhere, and its what keeps us sane, faith.
We need it to function everyday in life, whether we recognize it or not

lets see, umm, I don't pray ever, I have infact cursed "god" out on many an ocasion for joking purposes, I've debated with the local chritsian club on several an ocasion, the only way that religion directly effects me today, is when I'm bitching about how crazy it is, faith doesn't keep us sane (at least not me) I live in reality, I don't have time to waste thinking about what happens after I die, or beliving that some devine presence is out there, I have real things to deal with, like school, and my future, things that are here right now, I don't need faith to see them.



Religion is a belief. A choice. A philosophy. It shouldn't be promoted to others with different beliefs. It shouldn't be shoved down the public's throat. And most importantly, it shouldn't be perverted through the actions of a few religious people. Religion isn't always a bad thing. It gives hope to a lot of people. But that hope is their hope, and it's unique to an individual. Don't go around assuming that others have the same system. Don't assume that your way is right.

I agree wholeheartedly

Mostly, those that were brought up on religion believe in it the most. It is hard to get some christians-since-birth to comprehend that the Bible is similar to Greek Mythology. The Bible could have just been a way to explain things, in a more philosophical view than Greek Mythology. But the christian can't see the Bible as anything less than the ultimate truth.

You may have to open your mind beyond science to appreciate the Bible. Still, you have to open it even further to get past the Bible.

I was raised lutheran, I went to a lutheran school, church every sunday, the whole sha bang, then I watched my grandma, the best and most religious person I ever knew wither and die because of cancer, if there is a god he's playing a cruel joke, I have a fairly decent understanding of the bible, but I also have a fairly decent understanding of how life really works

im thinking this thread is going somewhere we dont want to go. i think religion shouldn't be a thread topic anymore. people are getting pissed. anyway this is more like saying: should we believe the bible? instead of modern logic vs the bible

I find this statement insulting. You're generalizing, and assuming. Generalizing that ALL Christians are fundamentalists, and that the Bible isn't anything more than a collection of myths. Y'know, it's funny how much Greek mythology affects modern culture. You can be as atheistic as you want, but just like religious people shouldn't proclaim their beliefs to atheists, atheists shouldn't blatantly disrespect said religious people.
Whoops, I knew I forgot to include that in my post. I know not all religious folk are narrow minded.

to what mind is it narrow and what point is it not mistookin for somthing else says me: but relizeing that ones truth is not what he says is but what he knos ........

im thinking this thread is going somewhere we dont want to go. i think religion shouldn't be a thread topic anymore. people are getting pissed. anyway this is more like saying: should we believe the bible? instead of modern logic vs the bible

well, people get pissed on pretty much any debate thread, but you're right, the topic has been obscured a bit, but once again, thats something that happens on pretty much all the debate threads

Yup...Like if i say "God isn't real" All the religious nuts will flip out. And if you say "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" All the sane people will get irritated cuz of how ignorant the religious people are. It's a truly viscious cycle.

Which is why religion should be left out of politics. It's a personal, moral sorta thingie. Sure, you can talk about it with your religious friends, but don't go making religious statements everywhere. However, the same is true for everything else, including atheism. Don't just assert that God isn't real. 92% of the American population believes in God. That's just picking a fight you can't win. The fact that religion is being used in debate is actually kinda bad in the first place.

im thinking this thread is going somewhere we dont want to go. i think religion shouldn't be a thread topic anymore. people are getting pissed. anyway this is more like saying: should we believe the bible? instead of modern logic vs the bible
precisely it should be change to "should we believe the bible?" thus, politics won't be pulled in

lets see, umm, I don't pray ever, I have infact cursed "god" out on many an ocasion for joking purposes, I've debated with the local chritsian club on several an ocasion, the only way that religion directly effects me today, is when I'm bitching about how crazy it is, faith doesn't keep us sane (at least not me) I live in reality, I don't have time to waste thinking about what happens after I die, or beliving that some devine presence is out there, I have real things to deal with, like school, and my future, things that are here right now, I don't need faith to see them.


you will realize yourself when faced with loss of a loved one, the importance of having faith in something. You still havent realized the issues surrounding us, and you just believe religion is just something that tells people what to do. Religion is a guideline that has worked for 6000 years, and who are you to criticize it without realize its true meaning? You are merely trying to rebel against common belief, as that is what most people of our age do. If what you think is true, do you think the billions of people who follow religion are fools and will blindly listen to anything it preaches? i dont think so. If you infact lack the ability to comprehend religion, ignore it, do NOT assume you know it and take it for granted.
In today's world, people do not care about others. I'm probably the same. Faith is what unites us, and so that we can ensure a common goal, to better our life and to guide our knowledge and wisdom.

you will realize yourself when faced with loss of a loved one, the importance of having faith in something. You still havent realized the issues surrounding us, and you just believe religion is just something that tells people what to do. Religion is a guideline that has worked for 6000 years, and who are you to criticize it without realize its true meaning? You are merely trying to rebel against common belief, as that is what most people of our age do. If what you think is true, do you think the billions of people who follow religion are fools and will blindly listen to anything it preaches? i dont think so. If you infact lack the ability to comprehend religion, ignore it, do NOT assume you know it and take it for granted.
In today's world, people do not care about others. I'm probably the same. Faith is what unites us, and so that we can ensure a common goal, to better our life and to guide our knowledge and wisdom.


I was raised lutheran, I went to a lutheran school, church every sunday, the whole sha bang, then I watched my grandma, the best and most religious person I ever knew wither and die because of cancer, if there is a god he's playing a cruel joke, I have a fairly decent understanding of the bible, but I also have a fairly decent understanding of how life really works

your not talking to some rank amature here, I was raised in a very religous environment, and Ironically it was the death of a loved one that caused me to loose any faith I had, I came to the realisation then and there, that all I had been tought was for nothing. As time went by, and I became even less thrilled with the idea of religion, however even as I left it behind, it continued to haunt me, it attacked the things that I enjoy, not big things like sex or drugs or anything like that, but the few things that make my life bearable, video games, tv, music, al things that have nothing or very little with religion, and yet religion feels the need to but in. and as for it working for 6000 years, it's had more than it's share of blemishes in that time, and thats my whole point, why does a book writen 6000 years ago effect me now?

Why does the basis for society created 6000 years ago still effect you? (I mean Justinian's code, and other Greek/Roman political foundations). It's a lot like that for many people. If you live in a religious environment, your parents will probably bring it into your life whether you like it or not. It's not fair, sure, but you shouldn't condemn religion for it (not that you are, but some people are).

yeah realy the bible doesnt really fit our society right now..

Ive been saying that since january....

when i joined...

The Bible shouldn't be taken literally. If you come upon a scientific fact, and find that it doesn't line up with your beliefs, you shouldn't challenge the facts.

your not talking to some rank amature here, I was raised in a very religous environment, and Ironically it was the death of a loved one that caused me to loose any faith I had, I came to the realisation then and there, that all I had been tought was for nothing. As time went by, and I became even less thrilled with the idea of religion, however even as I left it behind, it continued to haunt me, it attacked the things that I enjoy, not big things like sex or drugs or anything like that, but the few things that make my life bearable, video games, tv, music, al things that have nothing or very little with religion, and yet religion feels the need to but in. and as for it working for 6000 years, it's had more than it's share of blemishes in that time, and thats my whole point, why does a book writen 6000 years ago effect me now?

1: No human lives forever. God doesn't allow immortality. He grants miracles, yes. But when it's your time to die, it's your time to die. Whether by natural or unnatural causes. I'm going to die. My mother's going to die. My brother's going to die. You're going to die. So...Why loose faith over one death, even if it's someone so close to you?

2: True, certain things don't have the same effect they had 6,000 years ago. But many things do. Some of the laws that man made thousands of years ago, specifically Hammurabi's Code, still affect common law today.

My history teacher told me that athiesm is when you can't comprehend if there is a God or not.

I believe some things in the bible could happen.

There have been some feats done by martial artist that have been documented for the first time that people thought "THAT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!".

Just because we haven't done it doesn't mean it can't happen....:)

^That kind of thing can go both ways. Religious people could say "wow lookit this, its so complex and improbable it must be influenced by God." And then scientists give a scientific explanation for it.

My history teacher told me that athiesm is when you can't comprehend if there is a God or not.

No. Your teacher is biased to a point of ignorance... Or slanderous. Either one fits.



The thing is, religion can be great. However, the fact remains that organized religion inhibits our decisions and our actions. Whether it is for the better or worse is pure opinion in different instants of time. Being overzealous can aversively affect people, but it can also save people as well.

What bothers me is when my political (and human) freedoms that are granted to me by the United States are limited based upon religious moral interpretations. That's where the problem lies.

What bothers me is when my political (and human) freedoms that are granted to me by the United States are limited based upon religious moral interpretations. That's where the problem lies.
And where do you believe your God-given rights are being violated? (Sorry, that's my term for the rights that each American citizen is afforded.)

This country was formed by God-fearing men, would you not think it to have religious bases? Maybe not all the signers of the Declaration were religious, but I know that Benjamin Franklin was religious, at the moment I forget which religion; George Washington was Episcopalian; Benjamin Rush was a Christian; Thomas McKean was a Presbyterian; and so on and so on.

To not have the U.S.A. based upon God would either take a rebellion and a new constitution, various political powers persuading a change to extinguish God from the Government, or someone proving God's existence false.

Bullshit on that. True, they were "God fearing men" for the day. However, they believed that man are born with natural freedoms. One of which is a freedom of religion and a freedom from religious persecution. Hence why they made a Separation between Church and State. Later on, with the "second generation of FF's," if you will, ensured this Separation by declaring that the United States of America is, and always will be, a secular nation. The US Constitution is not a Christian one. Do you know what the word secular means or should I define it for you?

The fact of the matter is that if rules are made soley based upon religious teachings, they not only are un-American, but they flow completely opposite to American society. According to this thread, "modern logic," I suppose, means that religion is not inherently needed in the foundation of rules any longer.

The fact of the matter is that if rules are made soley based upon religious teachings, they not only are un-American, but they flow completely opposite to American society. According to this thread, "modern logic," I suppose, means that religion is not inherently needed in the foundation of rules any longer.
This is wrong. I base many votes on what the Bible says about it. The Bible was written by God through man. It tells us the way that we should aspire to live. To make a law off of what the bible says makes sense. The Bible is what Christians base their beliefs many political issues like abortion. It is American that voters decide what they like or dont like. If the majority rules, then that means that democracy works. The Bible is the basis of my political beliefs, why should that be so bad?

You misinterpret what I say... Quite often, it appears.

You can base your decisions and votes of what you see in the Bible. However, the fact remains that the three branches of our government cannot legally make decisions that are based soley on what a religion says.

If we based all of our laws off of the Bible, then we'd be in a shit load of trouble. The death penalty would apply to everyone that disrespects their parents. Ever.

And I'm sorry, I'm not Christian. Nor is a large chunk of the US. And even the majority of Christians see differently from one another based upon the interpretations of their religion. Get it? Got it? Good.

I see what you are saying. But when a majority of people in office are religious, the assumption that the laws off the Bible may be made. There are certain things that all fundamental Christians, all branches, including mormons and catholics will agree on. Many others agree with Christian belief systems. So I ask you, how is a law created solely off of the Bible? any laws in particular?

Of course people make decisions based upon religious morality. However, we cannot make laws that are based soley upon them. (I've said this about 4 times now.) For example, let us pretend that the majority of people in Congress are Jewish. They decide to make it so that eating pork is illegal in the US. Why can't they do that? The Separation. Christianity doesn't forbid it, for example.

Name one thing that all branches of Christianity believe in other than Jesus and God existing.

You want a law that is based entirely off of religious principles that are taught in the Bible that is currently a hot issue? Easy. The gay marriage ban. Name one reason to not allow gay marriage that does not have to do with religious "morality."

Well theres the 10 commandments. a true christian will be against the idea of gay marriage. porn theyll be against. thats just some of them.

And sorry, that is destroying what it very well means to be an American. Look at the promises in the Bill of Rights. In terms of State laws, the State will always (and should always) trump religion in the United States.

Well theres the 10 commandments. a true christian will be against the idea of gay marriage. porn theyll be against. thats just some of them.Actually a true Christian is understanding of others personal actions or beliefs. If for no other proof of this, look at some of the Catholic preists. There are a few in Northern USA that are openly homosexual. There are even a few that run over people in their cars then leave (if you ask me to provide proof of the 4 year old story I am referring to, you are sadly mistaken).

Though, religion and logic is what you make of it. I mean earlier this semester in fundamental computer engineering, logic is:

(for any x in the set of REALS, there exists a y)(for every y > 0)(x+y <=0) == false (wanna prove this statement wrong? What happens when x=2? y must = -2 and thus the statement is false. Since the logic is for "any" x it also must work for every x. Thus this statement is false)

Modern logic? How bout modern (accepted) philosophy. Thats a better term for it.

Anyway, if you break down religion you'll see that the core is a belief (better known as an opinion with some facts thrown in). "Modern Logic" is nothing more than an opinion as well founded by the leaders of societies and age old traditions. In my opinion of which is better I'd say my own philosophy which embraced some religious beliefs.

well, I don't think religion is bad or anything, I just think some people take it to far, theres nothing wrong with being spirtual and believing in a higher power, but leave it to yourself and those around you, theres no need to come up to my door at 9am asking if I have found god, thats just a bit invasive in my opinion, and like I said at the start my real problem stems from religious people butting in where they shoudn't, if you don't like heavy metal music, or violent video games, or things of that nature, then fine, I don't care, but you should leave it at that instead of lobbying against it because you don't like it. I don't rant and rave in front of churches (if I did I'd be on the news though lol) complaining about how they bother me, and I expect a similar curtosey, just leave me and my heatheness ways be, your not going to convince me of anything, I'm way to stuck in my ways at this point.

it is true they should not intrude into your space
they also should descern when when things should be done
like not knocking at wierd times and all that
but they believe that as part of their religion they should
but most of them over do it becoz they have to do it
not even some "christians" understand
some people think that christianity is all rules
and god is a dictator n all that
but he made rules so that we would not be harmed and for our own good
i believe that we should obey the ten commandments
they are the fundamental laws of our country and ses a standard for moral

I'm a Christian, but i hate that word. I like to think of my "religion" as not really a religion, but rather a relationship with God. That's what I learn, anyways.

As for people knockin on your door at 9am, and voicing themselves saying that this or that is too violent, or even the fact that some things are evil, or of the devil: I would have to agree with them, but I do think that they might take it to a level where people would get irritated or pissed.
I myself don't go around saying, "this is evil. That's wrong. It's too violent."
I live by my own standards, and others can do as they like. I might say, "It's real violent." or "It seems demonic to me." But I wouldn't TELL the person, "It's evil. Don't do it." or "It's too violent. Don't play that game."
They can do as they please, and I have to right telling them what to do.

But knocking on people's doors, and giving out tracts/flyers on the street, i don't think that's going overboard. It's not like they're stepping into your home without permission and giving you a lecture on how your religion is wrong, or why you HAVE to accept Jesus or anything like that.
They are simply knocking on your door, and asking if you're interested. Don't salesmen do the exact same thing? Buddists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christians, Catholics, and probably even more religions do the same thing, and why? For the sake of their religion. They want people to believe or accept their God, because they believe that their God is THE GOD, and you need to accept Him or believe in Him in order to go to heaven. Don't think of it as they're doing it and it's annoying. They're knocking on your door, and caring for your sake, that you may have a chance to be "saved". Even if you may not believe in their religion, don't be all pissed at them. That wouldn't be very courteous. (Not saying that you do get pissed at them, or that you're doing anything wrong.)


@idono: I don't know what people this is, but who actually thinks of God as a dictator? Sure, he's God, and a ruler over earth, but isn't "dictator" kinda harsh? I had to look up the word because I wasn't sure with the exact definition, and Dictator is a person ruling absolutely and often brutally.
Why would they think that God is a dictator, if they believe that he created all things, or that he exists. (Cause if they don't believe that he created all things, then what do they believe in him for?)
If some people look as Christianity as "all rules", then what they think of democracy and every other religion? Because every religion has it's set of rules, as well as democracy. Too be honest with you, I haven't seen any strict rules in christianity since I've started reading the Bible.
I'm not saying that you view it this way, but since you said it; can you tell me what do they see in christianity as being "all rules"?

you know people ( i did say other people...) who think that God made a bunch of rules (alot of ristrictions such as you cant commit adultry,you cant swear,you cant get drunk & so on... ) to make our life sad or to make us feel bad (i guess not many people think like that where you live)

i am a christian that firmly believes that christianity is more than just a once a weekly thing but a lifestyle, a way of thinking and acting. what is the use of calling your self a christian if you live a life of hypocisy? how can you praise god with your mouth and with that same mouth curse a brother made in god's image?if you can what makes you different form any other person who claims to have "religion"?

Im from an Assemblies of God denomination, so to me the Bible is what many people will considerer as a book. However it was meant to be a guide into life and a profetic book. If you believe it or not, more power to you. Modern Logic can't explanin everything that we wish to know so somethings have to be taken in by faith. That is my opinion.

I'm a Christian, but i hate that word. I like to think of my "religion" as not really a religion, but rather a relationship with God. That's what I learn, anyways.

As for people knockin on your door at 9am, and voicing themselves saying that this or that is too violent, or even the fact that some things are evil, or of the devil: I would have to agree with them, but I do think that they might take it to a level where people would get irritated or pissed.
I myself don't go around saying, "this is evil. That's wrong. It's too violent."
I live by my own standards, and others can do as they like. I might say, "It's real violent." or "It seems demonic to me." But I wouldn't TELL the person, "It's evil. Don't do it." or "It's too violent. Don't play that game."
They can do as they please, and I have to right telling them what to do.

But knocking on people's doors, and giving out tracts/flyers on the street, i don't think that's going overboard. It's not like they're stepping into your home without permission and giving you a lecture on how your religion is wrong, or why you HAVE to accept Jesus or anything like that.
They are simply knocking on your door, and asking if you're interested. Don't salesmen do the exact same thing? Buddists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christians, Catholics, and probably even more religions do the same thing, and why? For the sake of their religion. They want people to believe or accept their God, because they believe that their God is THE GOD, and you need to accept Him or believe in Him in order to go to heaven. Don't think of it as they're doing it and it's annoying. They're knocking on your door, and caring for your sake, that you may have a chance to be "saved". Even if you may not believe in their religion, don't be all pissed at them. That wouldn't be very courteous. (Not saying that you do get pissed at them, or that you're doing anything wrong.)


@idono: I don't know what people this is, but who actually thinks of God as a dictator? Sure, he's God, and a ruler over earth, but isn't "dictator" kinda harsh? I had to look up the word because I wasn't sure with the exact definition, and Dictator is a person ruling absolutely and often brutally.
Why would they think that God is a dictator, if they believe that he created all things, or that he exists. (Cause if they don't believe that he created all things, then what do they believe in him for?)
If some people look as Christianity as "all rules", then what they think of democracy and every other religion? Because every religion has it's set of rules, as well as democracy. Too be honest with you, I haven't seen any strict rules in christianity since I've started reading the Bible.
I'm not saying that you view it this way, but since you said it; can you tell me what do they see in christianity as being "all rules"?

thats good toshi. completely agree. christianity is not only the rules, its also how u live and the way u deal with things in life.