For non-US readers: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/595

For US readers: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/

What are the odds to post it on the exact same time? lol

What are the odds to post it on the exact same time? lol

I'll say.

About the chapter... cool taijutsu, little payoff. C'mon, a tiny crack? Kishi is really avoiding Tobi's identity, since this is beyond milking the process.

Chapter 600: Tobi's identity.

He's aiming for that lol

LOL Kakashi's kamui only work on small toys and not Gedo Mazou..

Chapter 600: Tobi's identity.

He's aiming for that lol

I'm told next week is a double issue, so perhaps Kishi will just wait a bit. Still, kind of anticlimactic a crack so small.

LOL Kakashi's kamui only work on small toys and not Gedo Mazou..

Let's be honest, that thing eats Bijuu for a living, a measly T/S jutsu was like a gumdrop for it.

wasn't expecting much from Kamui, not cause its used on Gedo Mazou.. but cause its been tone down from the moment it was introduce with the restrictions on Kakashi.. and even tobi said it won't work on him... so yeah its look cute on little toys like that kunai, nail or missle.. :p

Gai sensei busting out the chucks, pretty cool. The taijutsu between Kakashi and Gai reminded me of Part 1 when taijutsu was actually worth anything in a ninja fight. Kinda missed that. Other than that, decent fight nonetheless to start things off.

Sigh Naruto is still so much weaker than Tobi. He has to combine sage mode with bijuu chakra or learn FGT ,beating Madara or Tobi in this stage will be ridiculous.

Taijutsu battle was decent, can't wait for a clear translation. Pics are a bit blurry for my taste. Also what was Naruto saying when he was trying to attack Tobi with his clone. Something not being there? What did Kakashi think of when his Kamui didn't work on the Mazo? Honestly Kishi, Kakashi trolls Kamui twice now and Guy won't go 8 gate ballistic? Though his form of numchucks are better than Lee's. They made a crack in it but never landed a hit? Kakashi's rikiri through the rocks was nice. Naruto pulling a small bijuudama out his anus. Decent chapter. Kishi is making Tobi out to be a beast hand to hand. His phasing ability is the only thing saving that ass.

And the Obito troll train just keeps on going.

Kakashi wasn't attempting to absorb the entirety of Gedo Mazo, but merely the head/neck area which should've worked. Even the whole "Don't tell me..." seemed to be hinting that he suspected Tobi just overrode Kamui particularly since he was able to tell Kakashi not to bother using Kamui before it was even activated last time they met.

When I saw that bijuubomb energy I thought "Here it is, rasenbijuudamagan".

Meh fight. I hate cheap abilities ( Tobi ), at least Kakashi and Gai have not been fodderized. ( yet )

And the Obito troll train just keeps on going.

Kakashi wasn't attempting to absorb the entirety of Gedo Mazo, but merely the head/neck area which should've worked.

So... a thing that was used again and again to absorb huge amounts of chakra known as Bijuu couldn't possibly absorb a jutsu.

Sounds legit.

And the Obito troll train just keeps on going.

Kakashi wasn't attempting to absorb the entirety of Gedo Mazo, but merely the head/neck area which should've worked. Even the whole "Don't tell me..." seemed to be hinting that he suspected Tobi just overrode Kamui particularly since he was able to tell Kakashi not to bother using Kamui before it was even activated last time they met.

Well for a sec that was my same thought..did Tobi just use Kamui to protect Gedo Mazo?....Certainly something Kakashi noticed. I am starting to think Naruto could use FTG against Tobi...at first I thought his new found speed with Rikudo Mode and Bijuu mode would be enough. Kishi is making Tobi out to be a serious challenge. Kakashi the copy cat ninja, Guy Konoah's Beast And The most unpredictable ninja in the Leaf Naruto aren't enough for TOBI???

When I saw that bijuubomb energy I thought "Here it is, rasenbijuudamagan".

Meh fight. I hate cheap abilities ( Tobi ), at least Kakashi and Gai have not been fodderized. ( yet )

Remember they were not that long ago when Naruto first appeared with Bijuu Mode....They felt out of place...Kakashi even called Naruto sempai confusing him with Minato...they are on their way soon enough...Kakashi just used Kamui twice and guessing Kishi is saving "if" 8 gates for Guy's final attack. 10 tails, Madara, Tobi, Sasuke and Naruto will make Kakashi and Guy look like genins.

10 tails, Madara, Tobi, Sasuke and Naruto will make Kakashi and Guy look like genins.

Will ?

How about have already ?

This is Nardo at his weakest, and Tobi seems to be getting by mostly due to his phasing ability.

Will ?

How about have already ?

This is Nardo at his weakest, and Tobi seems to be getting by mostly due to his phasing ability.


lol I said they already did, but right now Kishi is making the unity of Kakashi, Guy and Naruto essential to defeating Tobi. Obviously they will be pushed aside esp once Sasuke shows up. Agreed though

So... a thing that was used again and again to absorb huge amounts of chakra known as Bijuu couldn't possibly absorb a jutsu.

Sounds legit.That was done through Phantom Dragons Nine Consuming Seals, which took several days and several people. It's never been shown to just absorb chakra on its own.

Kakashi even called Naruto sempai confusing him with MinatoTo be fair, that was meant to illustrate Naruto's growth as a shinobi. Factoring in the speed, similar appearance, and uber bad ass coat, Kakashi actually thought he was looking at Minato. Remember, when Naruto arrived to battle Pain in his bad ass coat? Kakashi was already dead. He never got to see it to associate Naruto with such attire as it's never been worn since. Also, with Naruto telling Kakashi that he was spoke his father, it wasn't entirely impossible to him as an explanation at that point. Despite Guy asking if it was Naruto, it's not until Kakashi realizes that that they aren't inside Kurama's chakra does he finally see Naruto and respond with shock.

That was done through Phantom Dragons Nine Consuming Seals, which took several days and several people. It's never been shown to just absorb chakra on its own.

To be fair, that was meant to illustrate Naruto's growth as a shinobi. Factoring in the speed, similar appearance, and uber bad ass coat, Kakashi actually thought he was looking at Minato. Remember, when Naruto arrived to battle Pain in his bad ass coat? Kakashi was already dead. He never got to see it to associate Naruto with such attire as it's never been worn since. Also, with Naruto telling Kakashi that he was spoke his father, it wasn't entirely impossible to him as an explanation at that point. Despite Guy asking if it was Naruto, it's not until Kakashi realizes that that they aren't inside Kurama's chakra does he finally see Naruto and respond with shock.

Brother man thanks for that of which I already knew. I was joking with Dagaro. I was just pointing out "FODDERISM" which was how they were made to look when Naruto entered Bijuu mode.

nice chapter ... taijutsu atlast .... it would be funny if the first page of next chapter shows us that the tiny crack enlarges and the whole mask breaks and tobi becomes rorschach and will be like "where is my face,give me my face?" lol :)

That was done through Phantom Dragons Nine Consuming Seals, which took several days and several people. It's never been shown to just absorb chakra on its own.

So it eats souls (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-10/naruto/chapter-447.html) with a catatonic Nagato (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-11/naruto/chapter-447.html)on charge but not chakra with Tobi perfectly lucid and incarnating the Juubi to add to it?

Also, it ate the contents of a canopy and a tentacle just fine. (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/592/9)



I know you want to defend Tobi=Obito, but confirmation bias isn't the way to do it. There's even 4 possibilities for what happened


Gedou Mazou absorbed Kamui
Tobi absorbed Kamui with Preta Path
Tobi dismissed Kamui with his own T/S jutsu
Tobi dismissed Kamui by being Obito, thus having Kamui

So let's stop this cherry picking and look at things logically.

So it eats souls (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-10/naruto/chapter-447.html) with a catatonic Nagato (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-11/naruto/chapter-447.html)on charge but not chakra with Tobi perfectly lucid and incarnating the Juubi to add to it?

Also, it ate the contents of a canopy and a tentacle just fine. (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/592/9)



I know you want to defend Tobi=Obito, but confirmation bias isn't the way to do it. There's even 4 possibilities for what happened


Gedou Mazou absorbed Kamui
Tobi absorbed Kamui with Preta Path
Tobi dismissed Kamui with his own T/S jutsu
Tobi dismissed Kamui by being Obito, thus having Kamui

So let's stop this cherry picking and look at things logically.

Numi, what is the trans for that on tobi mask?

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/12.html

Or is it just nothing... (just curious cause i think tobi did something)

Numi, what is the trans for that on tobi mask?

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/12.html

Or is it just nothing... (just curious cause i think tobi did something)

It's a sound effect, since it's in the font used for it. Literally it says "pikuri", which means "flinch" (as someone would do when noting something).

Lol, Tobi told Kakashi to put that Kamui shit down, guess he didn't hear him. Thats called getting clowned.

Feel that was one of the better combat chapters we've had for a while. People blather on and on about how Kakashi and Gai are weak, but they have great arsenals and combined with Naruto's brute force, it seems to be effective. They're just up against Casper the Not-So-Friendly-Anymore ghost who you just can't hit. We've only seem Minato manage it basically because he could instantly be wherever he wanted (more or less).

I rather enjoyed this because we saw all three toss some strategy. It didn't work, but at least they are trying shit.

I know you want to defend Tobi=Obito, but confirmation bias isn't the way to do it. There's even 4 possibilities for what happened


Gedou Mazou absorbed Kamui
Tobi absorbed Kamui with Preta Path
Tobi dismissed Kamui with his own T/S jutsu
Tobi dismissed Kamui by being Obito, thus having Kamui

So let's stop this cherry picking and look at things logically.On the contrary, I never said anything was confirmed. You're just getting bent out of shape because it was brought up. My exact words were, "And the Obito troll train just keeps on going." It was a reference to my first sentence pertaining to the chapter last week, "Let the trolling Obito campaign begin."

After all this time? If I were suggesting Obito was confirmed as Tobi, there'd be some bragging, gloating, and mocking. Nah, that's just a nod to the fact that Kishi isn't stupid. He's fully aware of what he's doing with this having still kept the revelation of Kakashi's method to obtain MS, Tobi verbally dismissing Kakashi's attempt to use Kamui before it activated, the suggestion of a personal relationship between Tobi/Kakashi/Guy, and now this. Regardless of how he reveals Tobi to be, seems like he's having some fun trolling with the Obito theory.

Also, Preta Path chakra absorption requires contact, either physical or through the barrier.

So it eats souls (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-10/naruto/chapter-447.html) with a catatonic Nagato (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-11/naruto/chapter-447.html)on charge but not chakra with Tobi perfectly lucid and incarnating the Juubi to add to it?

Also, it ate the contents of a canopy and a tentacle just fine. (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/592/9)Souls =/= Chakra

Yeah, just a canopy and a tentacle. Not really the same as absorbing the chakra from a jutsu, is it? We've seen it fight twice and it's never absorbed the chakra from a jutsu or a person on its own. Granted, that doesn't mean that it can't, but I'm taking things as that it can either.

So it eats souls (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-10/naruto/chapter-447.html) with a catatonic Nagato (http://www.mangareader.net/93-452-11/naruto/chapter-447.html)on charge but not chakra with Tobi perfectly lucid and incarnating the Juubi to add to it?

Also, it ate the contents of a canopy and a tentacle just fine. (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/592/9)



I know you want to defend Tobi=Obito, but confirmation bias isn't the way to do it. There's even 4 possibilities for what happened



Gedou Mazou absorbed Kamui
Tobi absorbed Kamui with Preta Path
Tobi dismissed Kamui with his own T/S jutsu
Tobi dismissed Kamui by being Obito, thus having Kamui

So let's stop this cherry picking and look at things logically.

Tbh its Preta Path or some other special ability of that war-fan. Look at the panel when Tobi notices Kakashi using Kamui, Tobi throws his fan up . I think the war-fan is an extension of his own body,explaining how it absorbed Kamui.

Yay, a crack. That means were getting Tobi's face at 600 :)

This chapter helped this arc out a lot with the unity shown between Gai and Kakashi. Liked the teamwork between Bee and Kakashi as well.

The part that irks me though, is several chapters ago, Naruto had Tobi punk'd (both mentally and phsyically), and now he can't even hit the bastard.

I do like Tobi being built up as a fighter, but c'mon.

Here's the bullshit, how can he be 'phasing' in an 'out' or untouchable state, and swing his Guitar Weapon around all over the place and hit, and block shit at the same time... this smells of bullshit, so Tobi can phase parts of his body, while other parts are intangible.

Not hating on the action, kinda impressed that Gai brought an assault, but Hachibi and Bee are looking like Bitches personally, they're the only ones in the crew not attacking, and though the tandem ain't as powerful as Kyuubs and Naruto, but I'm sure they're more powerful than Gai and Kakashi. Do something besides throw allies at the fucking enemy. Additionally KB is supposed to have speed that was near, and or, match Minato, he's supposed to be in Bijuu Cloak mode like vs. Sasuke, or str8 up Sword attacking, WTF is that about?

Of course he can just phase certain body parts. This was established by Sakura (Yeah, she actually contributed useful information. Shocker.) the first time we saw him use the ability.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c395/10.html

Pretty good chapter. Taijutsu was awesome, and I missed it. I don't believe we had a good fight in ages. Too bad that Tobi is just boring. He has one ability which is annoying as fuck. It would have been better if they fought Madara...minus the whole Perfect Susanoo and shit like that.

It is really a shame that only the strongest are left since all we will see until the end are explosions, Susanoos and Mangekyo Rinnegan Bijuudamas flying around. Kishimoto had an awesome fighting system which worked much better for the lower level fights.

Oh, and Gai is awesome. Nunchuks dildo dragon style ownage.

As someone said, why the hell Bee isnt fighting using his swords? He was pretty good at it, even Sasuke couldnt follow. It'd be helpful in this situation.

Killer Bee's been regulated to window dressing/background fodder. Remember when all the Tailed Beasts were ganging up on Naruto and he just chilled, watching the whole thing unfold without contribution. Reminds me of how Luke Cage goes from leader of the New Avengers to random background dude during Marvel's major events.

Killer Bee's been regulated to window dressing/background fodder. Remember when all the Tailed Beasts were ganging up on Naruto and he just chilled, watching the whole thing unfold without contribution. Reminds me of how Luke Cage goes from leader of the New Avengers to random background dude during Marvel's major events.

Actually Bee/Hachibi was damaged and suffering some direct attacks as well. I agree though hurt he could of still helped. Bee needs to either transform into human form and help out. Hachibi is such a target right now. Yeah he has been mostly fodderized, but he still holds purpose.

Though..As I said I agree

So Tobi is able to negate Kakashi's Kamui fascinating. Tobi also knows Gai and Kakashi's strategic style. Interesting..I wonder who this guy is that is so jaded with Gai and Kakashi. ;)

This is how I was when the chapter started.

http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/internet-memes-look-at-me.png

This is how I was when I realized the chapter ended. Damn kishi is stalling for time once again. This reminds me of the original star wars animated series that cartoon network did. 4 minutes of an episode every frickin week.

Pretty good chapter. Taijutsu was awesome, and I missed it. I don't believe we had a good fight in ages. Too bad that Tobi is just boring. He has one ability which is annoying as fuck. It would have been better if they fought Madara...minus the whole Perfect Susanoo and shit like that.

It is really a shame that only the strongest are left since all we will see until the end are explosions, Susanoos and Mangekyo Rinnegan Bijuudamas flying around. Kishimoto had an awesome fighting system which worked much better for the lower level fights.

Oh, and Gai is awesome. Nunchuks dildo dragon style ownage.

This is exactly what the hell I've been saying! Besides the 5min limit it's a bunch of crap.

Did Tobi ever used a jutsu that wasn't a phasing/teleportation one?

Izanagi...

On the contrary, I never said anything was confirmed. You're just getting bent out of shape because it was brought up. My exact words were, "And the Obito troll train just keeps on going." It was a reference to my first sentence pertaining to the chapter last week, "Let the trolling Obito campaign begin."

After all this time? If I were suggesting Obito was confirmed as Tobi, there'd be some bragging, gloating, and mocking. Nah, that's just a nod to the fact that Kishi isn't stupid. He's fully aware of what he's doing with this having still kept the revelation of Kakashi's method to obtain MS, Tobi verbally dismissing Kakashi's attempt to use Kamui before it activated, the suggestion of a personal relationship between Tobi/Kakashi/Guy, and now this. Regardless of how he reveals Tobi to be, seems like he's having some fun trolling with the Obito theory.

Considering you defended the theory on the past and only now you apparently denounce it, forgive my skepticism in your previous words. Still , better to make sure the Tobi=Obitards don't have the wrong idea.

Also, Preta Path chakra absorption requires contact, either physical or through the barrier.

As Encon Uchiha pointed out, Tobi's fan is acting like it's in sync with Tobi, mostly due to having moments of halting memento for no good reason but to be in Tobi's control.

Souls =/= Chakra

Yeah, just a canopy and a tentacle. Not really the same as absorbing the chakra from a jutsu, is it?

Perhaps not the souls (although they do have a component of chakra, spiritual energy), but the chakra from a jutsu is the same thing. A jutsu is simply channeling of chakra with(out) modification(s). And we've already seen an entity known to absorb chakra absorbing a jutsu: Samehada. It shouldn't be different here.

I read this thing one more time at Manga Stream and I have one complaint...

HOW THE FUCK IS TOBI KEEPING UP WITH NARUTO?!

Wasn't he supposed to be faster than Raikage's Lightning Armor, Level 2? It's like Naruto got conveniently nerfed to fit the situation.

Considering you defended the theory on the past and only now you apparently denounce it, forgive my skepticism in your previous words. Still , better to make sure the Tobi=Obitards don't have the wrong idea.It's still my preferred theory. I'm not denouncing it, but merely pointing out that Kishi having a little bit of fun with it, fucking with its proponents and opponents alike.

As Encon Uchiha pointed out, Tobi's fan is acting like it's in sync with Tobi, mostly due to having moments of halting memento for no good reason but to be in Tobi's control.No. He was offering a possible suggestion for the fan extending the reach of the Preta Path's power. We'd have seen an effect there or Kakashi's acknowledgment instead of confusion and fear. Tobi's just manipulating the fan since the handle expands and contracts. He's gotten pretty damn good with that thing.

Perhaps not the souls (although they do have a component of chakra, spiritual energy), but the chakra from a jutsu is the same thing. A jutsu is simply channeling of chakra with(out) modification(s). And we've already seen an entity known to absorb chakra absorbing a jutsu: Samehada. It shouldn't be different here.Okay, everything but those first two sentences is such a reach, I'm amused by your desperation. You're better than that. I never once suggested that the chakra from a jutsu cannot be absorbed. We've seen it done by Samehada and the Rinnegan.

i interpreted it as tobi just unsummoned the mazo or teleported it to a different diminsion

They yelled out the plan. Brilliant.

Awesome chapter, Tobi's so much stronger they have to force him go intangible while he's trying to go offensive or they lose

They yelled out the plan. Brilliant.

How long have you been reading manga?

Wow Obito's really kicking some ass. 4 out of 5 for this weeks fight chapter.

Word. The only joy I'll get from this mango now is when Tobi is finally revealed to be Obito.


Edit: Really hope Guy opens all those gates, at least. It's be extra awesome if he does it against that super zombie mandara guy and somehow rapes him. Oh man, that'd be great.

The answer of "Naruto is a fucking dumbass" aside, why the hell is he using a completely chakra-based attack against Tobi, who currently has the goddamn Rinnegan? After he already tried that and even realized how stupid he was for doing it against Nagato? On that note why isn't Tobi, you know, using his goddamn eyes? The best things in this chapter were Guy's chucks and that damn fan. Naruto's part of the action was fucking stupid and KB sat there like a jackass, but Kakashi, Guy, and Tobi at least made for an interesting fight.

Word. The only joy I'll get from this mango now is when Tobi is finally revealed to be Obito.


Edit: Really hope Guy opens all those gates, at least. It's be extra awesome if he does it against that super zombie mandara guy and somehow rapes him. Oh man, that'd be great.


Do you purposely misspell names and make it look like you don't know much about the manga?

A very fast chapter with tons of action. Slowly but surely, the mask will come off.

Hmm, I wonder what justifies Obito being Tobi. I don't think Obito has anything to do with being Tobi, lol.

However, despite this Tobi knowing who Guy and Kakashi is, I still think Izuna could possibly be the guy under the mask or some way assisting his brother Madara. Like I said in another post...It doesn't make sense as to why Kabuto or Tobi would never summon Izuna. Izuna was considered Madaras equal and they were very close. If Itachi lost his eyes and had other ones transplanted in his eye, couldn't that same possibility happen to Izuna as well. And for all the very powerful ninjas that came back, they skipped out on Madaras brother?

tbh Tobi can be as old as Madara or older. Why?

1.Zetsu body parts. He can replace his old decaying bodying with Zetsu parts. I think the only part of him thats still a part of his original body is his face,thats why he protects it so much with masks.

2.His dimension. Maybe time goes slowly in there or not at all? Remember when Tobi warped Sasuke and Karin inside his dimension?He brought them out in front of Danzo with FULL HEALTH and chakra!..Yes,Karin could heal Sasuke but he didnt even had a sratch on him when he was in fornt of Danzo.

Also how did Torune and Fu survive in Tobi's dimension? They were there for weeks!..

Tobi can be Uchiha clan ancestor, Madaras apprentice or teacher, Izuna or Kagami.

Do you purposely misspell names and make it look like you don't know much about the manga?

Nope.

Hmm, I wonder what justifies Obito being Tobi. I don't think Obito has anything to do with being Tobi, lol.

However, despite this Tobi knowing who Guy and Kakashi is, I still think Izuna could possibly be the guy under the mask or some way assisting his brother Madara. Like I said in another post...It doesn't make sense as to why Kabuto or Tobi would never summon Izuna. Izuna was considered Madaras equal and they were very close. If Itachi lost his eyes and had other ones transplanted in his eye, couldn't that same possibility happen to Izuna as well. And for all the very powerful ninjas that came back, they skipped out on Madaras brother?

It's naruto mango. It doesn't have to make sense.

It doesn't really matter who it is at this point anyway. No matter what, it's going to be pretty stupid. The whole unmasking thing was way to drawn out. If it's the dude you're suggesting then the whole thing lead up to it being some dude that was barely mentioned and is only relevant because of his role as the dude with the mask. Making a big deal about who is underneath the mask was stupid as fuck in that case. Same thing applies if it's any random barely mentioned dude in the series, and would be even worse if it's a dude that was never mentioned at all.

That's why I actually think it might be Obito. Yeah, he's irrelevant and shit too, and it being him would also be laughably stupid. But at least he was an actual character that played a significant role in a few chapters of the mango. Not some dude that was merely mentioned once or twice.

And it being Obito would just be funny as shit. Goddamn, kishi, don't fail me now by not failing.

Nope.



It's naruto mango. It doesn't have to make sense.

It doesn't really matter who it is at this point anyway. No matter what, it's going to be pretty stupid. The whole unmasking thing was way to drawn out. If it's the dude you're suggesting then the whole thing lead up to it being some dude that was barely mentioned and is only relevant because of his role as the dude with the mask. Making a big deal about who is underneath the mask was stupid as fuck in that case. Same thing applies if it's any random barely mentioned dude in the series, and would be even worse if it's a dude that was never mentioned at all.

That's why I actually think it might be Obito. Yeah, he's irrelevant and shit too, and it being him would also be laughably stupid. But at least he was an actual character that played a significant role in a few chapters of the mango. Not some dude that was merely mentioned once or twice.

And it being Obito would just be funny as shit. Goddamn, kishi, don't fail me now by not failing.

I think the Naruto manga makes a lot of sense and has a very powerful message. The guy behind the mask is a big deal or people wouldn't be reading it still. I'm happy Kishi isn't rushing the identity of Tobi and to be honest, he knows exactly what he's doing. If Tobi is Obito, Kagami, Izuna or the homeless guy under the bridge, I'm very sure that Kishi will have a good reason for it. Besides it's a manga, you can only fit so much information on each page.

Anyways, to each their own.

That was a joke post, right?

That was a joke post, right?

Light blue name with less than 50 posts whom no one else bothered to give the time of day? Don't get your hopes up, mate, things haven't gotten any better since you had the brains to get out...

The guy behind the mask is a big deal or people wouldn't be reading it still.

Nope that's just obitards and reason why they keep coming back...

That was a joke post, right?

I'm sorry, you didn't like my opinion? Just tell me, "It's a Naruto manga, it doesn't have to make sense"? Are you really a moderator that thinks "this is joke post." replies make you look cool? Maybe you are in the internet world, but I'm guessing you're one of those people that get teased or abused at home or at ar school...Next time be fair.

Goddamn, kishi, don't fail me now by not failing.

Lol. Naruto is kinda becoming like a shitty movie that you watch (/keep watching )because its shitty.

Anyways, haven't seen you around lately, jealous of us blues? :P

Poor Mibs. How are you handling those abusing ways of people in school man? My heart goes out to you : (

but I'm guessing you're one of those people that get teased or abused at home or at ar school.

I think the Naruto manga makes a lot of sense and has a very powerful message.
Naruto is a manga about teenage gangsters that use magic by preforming gang signs. The Konoha gangsters go on missions to kill rival gangsters in a struggle for money, power, territory, & fame (the whole ninja village system).

The main protagonist has such a warped view on the world that he's willing to ignore mass murder in order to save someone who never really was their actual friend(Sasuke) to begin with.

Naruto manga also shows us that females are inferior to males while their job is better served in the kitchen & making babies(quoting Kurenai's father).

The manga also shows us that it's ok to be a racist since it caters to superior races such as the Uchiha, Uzumaki, & Senju. It teaches us that no matter how hard you work(Rock Lee) you'll still be inferior based on blood lineage. Then there's also the stereotyping of black males as being ether brutish ragaholics or aspiring rapers.

The guy behind the mask is a big deal or people wouldn't be reading it still.
You really think that Tobi is the main reason why people read the manga? Dude the majority of fans hate Tobi. The main selling points of the manga right now are obviously Naruto & Sasuke.

I'm happy Kishi isn't rushing the identity of Tobi and to be honest, he knows exactly what he's doing.
Kishi knows what he's doing? That's why he's changed Tobi's identity going on what three times now? Kishi dragged Tobi's identity on to a point were it isn't even relevant anymore. Tobi can basically stay as no one & the manga would probably be better for it.

If Tobi is Obito, Kagami, Izuna or the homeless guy under the bridge, I'm very sure that Kishi will have a good reason for it.
A reason that was never really foreshadowed in the first place isn't going to be a good reason at all. This is the biggest problem with Tobi being anyone but the homeless guy under the bridge.

Besides it's a manga, you can only fit so much information on each page.

Anyways, to each their own.
It's a manga that has been going on for almost 600 chapters now (over 10,000 pages of ink) Surely some of this shit could have been explained or even hinted at earlier don't you think?

The manga also shows us that it's ok to be a racist since it caters to superior races such as the Uchiha, Uzumaki, & Senju.

This isn't racism, but it is a form of prejudice (specifically the Uchiha), that which the name escapes me at the moment.

Other than that, never thought of Naruto that way veng. Question is, who's the Don? And who's waking up in bed with a horse's head next to them?

This isn't racism, but it is a form of prejudice (specifically the Uchiha), that which the name escapes me at the moment.

Other than that, never thought of Naruto that way veng. Question is, who's the Don? And who's waking up in bed with a horse's head next to them?
Actually my full explanation on the issue is more about racism. Racism is a form of prejudice that relates to specific races which was within the example I gave. In my example the Uchiha (Japanese) are considered superior to people like Rock Lee (Chinese). We can go on to give the example of the blonde haired blue eyes protagonist (along with his father) being superior to the lesser class such as Rock Lee.

Edit: Just to elaborate on this prejudice is like me saying all Americans are morons. Since the American population isn't limited to a specific ethnicity it wouldn't be considered a racist statement.

A racist statement would be something like all black people stink, all white people are inherently evil, or that all Japanese people watch freaky tentacle porn.

Actually my full explanation on the issue is more about racism. Racism is a form of prejudice that relates to specific races which was within the example I gave. In my example the Uchiha (Japanese) are considered superior to people like Rock Lee (Chinese). We can go on to give the example of the blonde haired blue eyes protagonist (along with his father) being superior to the lesser class such as Rock Lee.

Gotcha, but could you please answer my questions as well.

;)

Gotcha, but could you please answer my questions as well.

;)
The Don's would be the Kages.

Naruto is a manga about teenage gangsters that use magic by preforming gang signs. The Konoha gangsters go on missions to kill rival gangsters in a struggle for money, power, territory, & fame (the whole ninja village system).

The main protagonist has such a warped view on the world that he's willing to ignore mass murder in order to save someone who never really was their actual friend(Sasuke) to begin with.

Naruto manga also shows us that females are inferior to males while their job is better served in the kitchen & making babies(quoting Kurenai's father).

The manga also shows us that it's ok to be a racist since it caters to superior races such as the Uchiha, Uzumaki, & Senju. It teaches us that no matter how hard you work(Rock Lee) you'll still be inferior based on blood lineage. Then there's also the stereotyping of black males as being ether brutish ragaholics or aspiring rapers.

The manga also shows us that it's ok to be a racist since it caters to superior races such as the Uchiha, Uzumaki, & Senju. It teaches us that no matter how hard you work(Rock Lee) you'll still be inferior based on blood lineage. Then there's also the stereotyping of black males as being ether brutish ragaholics or aspiring rapers.

Then there's also the stereotyping of black males as being ether brutish ragaholics or aspiring rapers.

aspiring rapers

Bit harsh on Bee, isn't it? I mean, he loves the women, but he's not aggressive about it...

Interesting - I always though Kishi was going for an Ayn Rand power and talent should be rewarded and given the chance to thrive at the expense of the working class for the betterment of mankind, despite their needs or ideals being at odds with the rest of the community.

Oh, also war is bad and destiny is cool.

Bit harsh on Bee, isn't it? I mean, he loves the women, but he's not aggressive about it...
Brutish ragaholic was in reference to Raikage while the raper bit was for Kirabi.

Interesting - I always though Kishi was going for an Ayn Rand power and talent should be rewarded and given the chance to thrive at the expense of the working class for the betterment of mankind, despite their needs or ideals being at odds with the rest of the community.
Interesting I can see that as well.

Interesting - I always though Kishi was going for an Ayn Rand power and talent should be rewarded and given the chance to thrive at the expense of the working class for the betterment of mankind, despite their needs or ideals being at odds with the rest of the community.

That's an interesting viewpoint ACt. Really never thought of it that way.

@Veng
But which kage is "the" Don? And who's waking up in bed next to the horse's head?

Brutish ragaholic was in reference to Raikage while the raper bit was for Kirabi.

ACt's joke zoomed over your head, took a victory lap, and then zoomed again.


Raper: Like...someone who rapes, which would be a rapist actually.

Rapper: J. Cole, Wale, etc.

Now now - Vengeance might literally think Kirabi is an aspiring raper, although in the world of Naruto, it wouldn't be rape since the women are just asking for it anyway.

I haven't read any of the Naruto chapters in a long time, but from reading these posts I can tell that Naruto still fucking sucks and, if possible, worse than before I stopped reading.

Also, Tobi is definitely Obito.

I'm sorry, you didn't like my opinion? Just tell me, "It's a Naruto manga, it doesn't have to make sense"? Are you really a moderator that thinks "this is joke post." replies make you look cool? Maybe you are in the internet world, but I'm guessing you're one of those people that get teased or abused at home or at ar school...Next time be fair.

I was actually just giving you the benefit of the doubt by not assuming that you seriously believed something so embarrassingly stupid. For example, the belief that people reading the manga demonstrates that identity of a character is 'a big deal' is a non sequitur logical fallacy. What you said there was objectively stupid.

But yeah, too bad I'm such a cool dude in the internet world. I wish I could just go online and talk about the powerful messages I see in some manga targeted towards preteen boys, post stupid shit, and make baseless personal attacks on people because their opinion about my opinion upsets me. That way I could avoid being...abused at home and school. = (

Speaking of which, what a horrible thing to say. If I was some chick who was beaten or molested, you just threw that in my face because I made a post on the internet saying that I thought something you said might have been non-serious. Surely even you can see that saying such a thing doesn't give you the high ground here, to put it extremely nicely.

Edit: Oh, and that Bee dude is a character created by the japanese and has tentacles. He's definitely a rapist.

Wow, a good show case of tobi's true strength IMO. Without even using the RG's power tobi is taking on kakashi with MS usage, gai in gates mode and naruto in RSM... I think this shows just how powerful tobi really is after so much speculation of his actual strength....

And check it out, something I have been wondering about with tobi, but he finally did it... he made his weapon (his fan) intangible to pass through the rocks to get to naruto... This iMO makes it clear tobi is using an earth style jutsu to change the composition of himself and the fan in order to become such a low amount of matter it passes through solid things and vica versa like a ghost. Or just recomposing himself and his weapon to be harder then steel to block... like his fan did against naruto's huge RSM rasengan...

I think this is the ability inherited from hashirama as the one that allowed hashirama to land an attack on madara through his sasanoo.... Madara was shown with a sword through him and the only way for hashirama to land such an attack is to use his intangible jutsu on himself and the sword so they can pass through sasanoo then become tangible again to stab madara while inside sasanoo...

I do not really know exactly why kakashi's kamui failed against the gedo mazo's neck... I believe it is just simply that kakashi did not use enough chakra underestimating the strength of GM which is why he said "don't tell me" after claiming he had gathered enough chakra to use kamui despite running very low on chakra for ten chapters now... the small suffixes around kakashi say "panting" describing exhaustion which validates even further the idea that kakashi was just too waek to use kamui effectively...http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c595/13.html

^WTF I don't even..

@Veng
But which kage is "the" Don? And who's waking up in bed next to the horse's head?
I answered your question already the Don is the leader of a crime family. Since Naruto has multiple crime families the Dons so to speak would be the Kages. The whole horse head thing is completely irrelevant to what I was talking about.

PS: Raper vs rapper har dar har I made a spelling error :p

Rapper: J. Cole, Wale, etc.You couldn't list better examples than that?

*Sighs.*

Guess I shouldn't have expected better with that signature though.

Kishi knows what he's doing? That's why he's changed Tobi's identity going on what three times now?Uh, changed when?

A reason that was never really foreshadowed in the first place isn't going to be a good reason at all. This is the biggest problem with Tobi being anyone but the homeless guy under the bridge.There's been foreshadowing. Plenty of it.

Uh, changed when?
Tobi went from being a good boy, to being Madara, to being no one. That's three identity shifts throughout the manga.

There's been foreshadowing. Plenty of it.
No there hasn't.

Chapter was 'ight. Tobi is the most annoying opponent to beat by far.

Tobi went from being a good boy, to being Madara, to being no one. That's three identity shifts throughout the manga.That's not Kishi changing his identity, but rather proving Tobi to be untrustworthy. The Madara claim was only believable to idiots. There was no way the fearsome Madara Uchiha would be such a bitch.

No there hasn't.Depends on who we get. Obito or Fugaku? It's been there.

PS: Raper vs rapper har dar har I made a spelling error :p

I know - that's why the joke is funny. My post would make no sense if you had spelt rapper correctly. I mean, c'mon people... humour.

That's not Kishi changing his identity, but rather proving Tobi to be untrustworthy. The Madara claim was only believable to idiots. There was no way the fearsome Madara Uchiha would be such a bitch.
Because you know Uchiha Madara personally right? People only really started suspecting that Tobi wasn't Madara when Kabuto confronted him with the mystery coffin. Before that there was no reason to assume that he wasn't other than that he wore a mask.

Depends on who we get. Obito or Fugaku? It's been there.
Zero foreshadowing with Fugaku also he's confirmed to be dead.

A serious lack of interaction with Kakashi early on discredits any notion of foreshadowing being done in regards to Obito. It's only recently (& by recently I mean this fight) that Tobi has even hinted at knowing Kakashi on a personal level. Even that at this point is debatable by simply assuming that Tobi did his homework on the enemy. Then there's also the fact that there was no personal connection between Tobi & Minato when they fought during the nine tails attack.

Tobi is voldemort, stop all this obito stuff.

P.S. hmmm, it may just be me, but doesnt it seem like there is some connection between miburo posting here and bots?

What do you mean?

Yeah, I don't follow either.

Yeah, I don't follow either.

Maybe he is trying to say that you are a man with a dual personality. You play the role of Miburo and at the same time you are posing as the misterious bot. Wtf, nobody follows here.

I dunno. Scanning the main page, I don't see any obvious bot attacks. Maybe one of my fellow comrades already got rid of them, but perhaps there were a bunch that showed up around the same time I started posting in the public section of the forum. So maybe the bots see me as a glorious sentient machine based on my flawless, machine-like reasoning ability and are drawn to wherever I am. Or maybe there hasn't been any bots since I returned to the forum, and he's suggesting that I'm so manly that even fearless robots fear me.

Though, the most obvious and likely answer is that SD totally has a super man-crush on me. = )

Because you know Uchiha Madara personally right? People only really started suspecting that Tobi wasn't Madara when Kabuto confronted him with the mystery coffin. Before that there was no reason to assume that he wasn't other than that he wore a mask.More like the fact Madara was basically Lord Voldemort in Naruto in terms of respect, power, and fear. He tried to take over Konoha, kill the first Hokage, and got the Uchiha distrusted and yet he still had a statue built of him as big the Hokage mountain itself where he was believed to have died. Not my fault you were gullible to believe a bad guy who got treated in such a manner would fight anything like how Tobi did.

Zero foreshadowing with Fugaku also he's confirmed to be dead.Plenty of foreshadowing. The fact Zetsu was shown to be able to fake someone's death right under the noses of Killer Bee and Gyuki (I'm sorry, but if you didn't think that was gonna come into play later? Slap yourself). Tobi having a Zetsu body to begin with, meaning his original human form was destroyed or too damaged for him to inhabit. The fact that the Uchiha can deny their deaths using Izanami and Tobi just so happens to have only one Sharingan eye he gives a fuck about. The obsession with Sasuke and Itachi. Fugaku being conveniently absent during Tobi's attack (despite being Chief of Police) and his wife knowing Kushina was about to give birth. Itachi stopping just short of stabbing Fugaku before crying (the death blow is implied, but never shown). Itachi and Shisui running around Konoha with MS, but the leader of the Uchiha supposedly didn't have one even though he was planning to lead a coup.

The fuck have you even been reading?

A serious lack of interaction with Kakashi early on discredits any notion of foreshadowing being done in regards to Obito.You mean besides it being Kakashi that was the first to discover Tobi had a Sharingan?

It's only recently (& by recently I mean this fight) that Tobi has even hinted at knowing Kakashi on a personal level. Even that at this point is debatable by simply assuming that Tobi did his homework on the enemy. Then there's also the fact that there was no personal connection between Tobi & Minato when they fought during the nine tails attack.Tobi told Kakashi to cut that Kamui bullshit out before even used it didn't strike you as odd? Nagato only knew Amaterasu was coming due to the pressure change because of the level of heat.

"Minato is always protecting you. But now I've gotten him away from you." The knowledge he had of the Flying Thunder God and even bringing the chains in advance. Also, Pain treated Jiraya pretty much the same way when they fought.

More like the fact Madara was basically Lord Voldemort in Naruto in terms of respect, power, and fear. He tried to take over Konoha, kill the first Hokage, and got the Uchiha distrusted and yet he still had a statue built of him as big the Hokage mountain itself where he was believed to have died. Not my fault you were gullible to believe a bad guy who got treated in such a manner would fight anything like how Tobi did.

Even though Itachi and Tobi both stated that "Uchiha Madara" was a shadow compared to what he once was, as in that Tobi did not have the same overwhelming power as Madara and, as far as it seemed then, that something had stripped Madara of the might he once brandished? The fact that you basically kept telling yourself that the mangaka was lying to you the whole time when no evidence had presented itself is a sign of paranoia, not observation skills.

Also, maybe his "bitch fighting" (a goddamn idiotic statement given that it's a manga about FUCKING NINJAS) doesn't fit with your idea of Madara, but his personality hit the nail on the head. Tobi is arrogant to a fault, just like Madara was said to be, just like Sasuke, Madara's successor, completely is. He wears the "Usual Uchiha Pride" like a badge.

Plenty of foreshadowing. The fact Zetsu was shown to be able to fake someone's death right under the noses of Killer Bee and Gyuki (I'm sorry, but if you didn't think that was gonna come into play later? Slap yourself). Tobi having a Zetsu body to begin with, meaning his original human form was destroyed or too damaged for him to inhabit. The fact that the Uchiha can deny their deaths using Izanami and Tobi just so happens to have only one Sharingan eye he gives a fuck about. The obsession with Sasuke and Itachi. Fugaku being conveniently absent during Tobi's attack (despite being Chief of Police) and his wife knowing Kushina was about to give birth. Itachi stopping just short of stabbing Fugaku before crying (the death blow is implied, but never shown). Itachi and Shisui running around Konoha with MS, but the leader of the Uchiha supposedly didn't have one even though he was planning to lead a coup.

The fuck have you even been reading?

I could ask you the same question.

One, you're making shit up saying that Mikoto knew about Kushina being about to give birth. She didn't. At all. Whatshername Hiruzen's wife bluntly told Kushina to drop the conversation before she revealed such a detail. Arguing the "DEATH BLOW WASN'T SHOWN" is fucking idiocy given that invoking that trope is so common in manga it's pathetic. While the reason for Shisui possessing a Mangekyou Sharingan hasn't been given and probably won't be because Shisui is not important, the fact that the MS was expressly forbidden by Uchiha and Konoha law like Izanagi and Izanami might have had something to do with it. He was probably leading the coup given that he was kind of the leader of the freaking Uchiha you dolt.

And lastly, you kind of fail hard when you go from "ZETSU FAKED HIS DEATH!!!!" to "HIS BODY WAS SO DAMAGED BY ONE STAB THAT HE HAD TO BECOME PART ZETSU!!!" (which itself makes no goddamn sense given that Tobi was part Zetsu at the time of his attack against Minato) and then proceeded further into crazyland with "HE COULD HAVE USED IZANAGI TO SAVE HIMSELF!!!!" which in turn violates both of your previous stated ideas. Not to mention that Tobi is completely out-of-character for Fugaku, especially given the latest iteration of "the truth" from Itachi's memories.

You mean besides it being Kakashi that was the first to discover Tobi had a Sharingan?

Even though every other character saw it at the same goddamn time?

Tobi told Kakashi to cut that Kamui bullshit out before even used it didn't strike you as odd? Nagato only knew Amaterasu was coming due to the pressure change because of the level of heat.

Hey remember how Zetsu can record fights and play them back later somehow? For someone talking about how everyone forgets about the "UBER IMPORTANT ZETSU" you sure do forget piss easy explanations.

"Minato is always protecting you. But now I've gotten him away from you." The knowledge he had of the Flying Thunder God and even bringing the chains in advance. Also, Pain treated Jiraya pretty much the same way when they fought.

Oh hey, the guy who has been working toward a single goal for somewhere in the realm of at least 20 years, if not significantly longer, had a plan? How unbelievably out-of-character! Here's a thought: Kishi has made it pretty damn clear that intelligence and information are the biggest things that all the ninja fight for because of the tactical advantage it gives. Ya think maybe the guy planning to take on the Hokage and the entirety of Konoha alone might have maybe just done some fucking research?

You couldn't list better examples than that?

Never said these were the best, nor were they my favorites, they were just the ones that came to mind! I doubt Vengeance even knows who those two are anyway.

Guess I shouldn't have expected better with that signature though.

Also, you're bringing this up again? Honestly cool story bro.

Idiocy at its finest. Do you even know what the concept of foreshadowing is because based on that response you gave you clearly don't. I would have responded to that bullshit however Korby pretty much did it for me. No sense in repeating what's been said.

I dunno. Scanning the main page, I don't see any obvious bot attacks. Maybe one of my fellow comrades already got rid of them, but perhaps there were a bunch that showed up around the same time I started posting in the public section of the forum. So maybe the bots see me as a glorious sentient machine based on my flawless, machine-like reasoning ability and are drawn to wherever I am. Or maybe there hasn't been any bots since I returned to the forum, and he's suggesting that I'm so manly that even fearless robots fear me.

Though, the most obvious and likely answer is that SD totally has a super man-crush on me. = )

New posts gave me like 4-5 pages yesterday, so yes, there were bots.

And nah about the crush thing, unless you have a light colored beard

Oh boy, EoJ is shooting at every direction and I'm the desperate one. Right...

Also, just an advice for the future, when Miburo says Tobi=Obito is because the theory is so goddamn stupid it fits the overall stupidity of the manga. So you defending Tobi=Obito on a logical stance and thanking Miburo's post is kind of an oxymoron.

If Obito is Tobi Kishi better explain it good. I still think Tobi is either Izuna or Kagami. Kakashi was in his teens when Tobi attacked and I doubt Obito can grow in size and power so fast

If Obito is Tobi Kishi better explain it good. I still think Tobi is either Izuna or Kagami. Kakashi was in his teens when Tobi attacked and I doubt Obito can grow in size and power so fast

Why the heck do you think its Kagami? Why, why, why? Because he was named? Come on, really? You really think that an insignificant Uchiha who was shown in, what?, one chapter is tobi when tobi is obviously voldemort

Why the heck do you think its Kagami? Why, why, why? Because he was named? Come on, really? You really think that an insignificant Uchiha who was shown in, what?, one chapter is tobi when tobi is obviously voldemort

I'm kind of with you here, where has it ever been noted that Kagami knows both Gai, and Kakashi, and they've never been in cahoots with him?

Tobi did seem to have some beef with Danzo and is old enough to know both Gai and Kakashi. Its just an assumption anyway. Kagami has a better chance than Obito of being Tobi.

Edit: An as noted by SD Kagami was insignificant and as said by Tobi he is no one which he may have been said because the village might have forgotten him.

How about the prospect that Tobi is just Uchiha Madara's eyes in a Zetsu body? A mere construct with Madara's implanted memories? That would explain him saying he is no one, simply because he wasn't born a human with a distinct identity. That could explain how Kyubi recognized him, since he recognized Madara's chakra through the eyes.

How about the prospect that Tobi is just Uchiha Madara's eyes in a Zetsu body? A mere construct with Madara's implanted memories? That would explain him saying he is no one, simply because he wasn't born a human with a distinct identity. That could explain how Kyubi recognized him, since he recognized Madara's chakra through the eyes.

But if that is true then why didn't tobi know about edo tensai... He had to have kabuto explain the whole thing to him while madara knew so much that he could break out of it... clearly the two are completely different people IMO.

Again, there is only one other known uchiha who has come close to being the next madara before itachi and sasuke ever were... and it just happens that like madara, he also is supposed to be dead yet because of his missing body is likely still alive... meaning both madara and this person have this in common... (both were supposed to of died, but actually didn't)

:Madara uchiha was supposed to of died at the valley of the end, but somehow didn't...

:Shisui somehow is suppose to be dead having offed himself yet his body is missing meaning he is likely not dead either...

With there being only one other known uchiha in history that is supposed to be dead, but is likely still alive... I think its obvious who is behind the mask IMO... Uchiha shisui...

Think about it... out of the two known dead, but somehow still alive uchiha... Tobi tries to convince the world that uchiha madara is one still alive... when he is actually the one dead. Then if he is trying to convince the world that madara is alive when he is not then, he is clearly trying to convince the world that the other is actually dead... even though his body is missing... because he is one who is actually alive... its a tactic used to conceal his true identity... pretending to be the one who is actually dead because he is in reality the one who is still alive...
If tobi is not madara because he is actually dead, not alive... then he has to be shisui because he is actually alive... not dead as believed...

Tobi as someone young and from a more recent generation is validated further by the fact tobi wears a mask in the first place... its because he does not want to be recognized. Yet, madara uchiha is so old that only oonoki could possibly recognize him so why would uchiha madara show off his SG just to hide his face?
IMO, Tobi is uchiha, but can only show off his SG to try and convince people he is madara because before he dawned the mask and took over as madara.. He was very famous and obviously young enough that he would be recognized if he wasn't wearing the mask... thus why someone who would not even be recognized has to wear a mask in the first place... because hes young and famous enough that he could easily be recognized without it which would make posing as madara impossible...

Take from this what you will, but I think it says allot about who tobi really is when you consider it...

^I stopped reading when I saw Shisui's name.


Seriously, stop it. There is no evidence, at all, that points to Shisui being Tobi. In fact, all evidence says otherwise.

^I stopped reading when I saw Shisui's name.


Seriously, stop it. There is no evidence, at all, that points to Shisui being Tobi. In fact, all evidence says otherwise.

Sure it does because shisui wasn't in the mist, as recognized by AO, known for special chakra and a genjutsu that just happens to be so similar to the one that controlled the 4th mizukage ,that its shisui and his genjutsu that is suspected of being there doing the deed... when in reality its shown tobi is controlling the 4th mizukage, then shows up in konoha right after shisui disappears, for his own last appearene, just like shisui did hours before...

Shisui is not directly responsible for the creation of the last two MS of itachi's and sasuke's... then tobi did not go and make an EMS out of the MS's... connecting the two again...

Shisui is not capable of controlling people wihtout them knowing... meaning he could simply make the world or anyone else believe what ever he wants to... making his death, his nature/personality and life a mere illusion he made people believe... because that is what he was capable of with kotoamatsukmai...

Shisui, who only vaguely spoke of using Koto to try and stop the COUP and then lost his eye to danzou, SOMEHOW... as opposed to actually explaining what happened... and just happened to be using his other Koto eye while explaining all this to itachi... meaning he was trying to convince itachi of what he said with his genjutsu, which is why he was using it... just look at the panle, shisui is using his Koto eye while telling itachi alll this... I wonder why...

SHisui's body is not missing as confirmed by kabuto, the dead body hunter who was even capable of finding uchiha madara's... yet for some reason cannot find anything of shisui's...

SHisui who is supposed to be dead like madara was, just happens to be only one of two people in history to do such a thing... one was supposed to still be alive as tobi, but in reality was dead so who does that leave the the person who is actually alive... SHISUI!!!

Most of all... to awaken a MS beyond the basic as madara did with his, you need hashirama's chakra... (EMS to RG as shown with edo madara... and MS to MS+ with shisui that awakened kotoamatsukami) To use such a jutsu like Kotoamatsukami, one needs the same kind of chakra that is required to awaken it, hashiramam's... and with AO recognizing shisui's chakra in danzou right arm and shoulder, however, hashirama's chakra being the actual chakra in said arm, shoulder... obviously shisui had chakra very similar to hashirama's to the point the BG could not tell the idfference...

:Power needed to awaken Kotoamatsukmia, a MS beyond the basic... hashirama's...
:Power needed to use the doujutsu itself more then once a decade as shisui obviously did (even showing a pic of shisui when itachi made the comment)... hashirama's...
And the same power mistaken for shisui's by Ao himself who knew all about shisui's chakra and genjutsu... hashirama's...

Thats three separate times shisui is implied to have hashirama's chakra as a power source... two obviously the only way he could of had such a MS genjutsu and the power to use it more then once a decade... the other most fools want to think is because of an arm danzou never had...

Tell me theres no evidence again... I'll refer you to these point^^^

So now there is a MS+?

For the love of everything good on this planet, people, do not reply to KYF. The guy is recycling already debunked points, let the little idiot be and he'll probably go back to writing fan predictions and actually doing something useful.


In all honesty, I just wished Kishi had something like Oda's SBS to at least rule out Tobi theories that aren't canon. That'd be a brain saver, even if he'd still hold 3~4 people as possibilities.

I try to never hate on you KYF, but saying Shisui needed someone else's power, hasirama, to use his OWN MS move is just stupid.

An uchiha awakes an uchiha eye technique, but is only able to use it as well as he did because he had the power of someone else. So without him he unlocked a power he can use every 10years?

There's nothing that shows Shisui had to wait 10 years between using his technique. Only that a non-uchiha had to wait that long, without some kind of aid. There is plenty of evidence (kakashi) that shows even the normal Sharigan drains chakra faster, and that using MS takes a huge toll on the body, that even requires hospitalization.


Speaking of which, why is Kakashi still alive, much less moving around? He used Chidori a couple of times just fighting Zabuza, fought the other Swordsmen (off panel), ran all the way to where Naruto is now, fought some more, tried Kamui on the giant Power Rangers monster of the week, and used Chidori 2 more times.

Shouldn't he be seriously dead by now..again.

There's nothing that shows Shisui had to wait 10 years between using his technique. Only that a non-uchiha had to wait that long, without some kind of aid.

Actually, Itachi said that Shisui's Kotoamatsukami took 10 years to recharge, unless Hashirama's chakra was somehow involved (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v58/c550/12.html)(see: Danzo). He never said anything about Uchiha/Non-Uchiha.

So now there is a MS+?

Its the name I gave shisui's MS because its not an EMS, but is clearly more then just a basic MS... SHisui had a genjutsu that surpassed even tsukuyomi meaning he didn't have just a basic MS, but something more powerful... SO yes, I called it a MS+ without a proper term to use...

I try to never hate on you KYF, but saying Shisui needed someone else's power, hasirama, to use his OWN MS move is just stupid.

An uchiha awakes an uchiha eye technique, but is only able to use it as well as he did because he had the power of someone else. So without him he unlocked a power he can use every 10years?


Tobi, who is infused with hashirama's cells to produce his chakra, is able to produce a jutsu beyond amaterasu. his t/s ninjutsu. and edo madara, who also has hashirama's cell implanted which allowed his EMS (uchiha SG limit) to become the RG which is the SG's ultimate form...
obviously, Its the chakra of hashirama that takes the SG to another level and made tobi's and edo madara's SG become more powerful...

ANd since shisui has Kotoamatsukami which is beyond tsukuyomi and even takes hashirama's chakra to use more then once a decade... coupled with AO Mistaking shisui's chakra for hashirama's... there is obviously a connection between the two... as in shisui somehow had hashirama's chakra, likely from cell implantation like the others who had the same chakra...

Its the fact that shisui had to of used kotoamatsukmai more then once a decade otherwise at the age of thirty... even if he had awakened it at age 10... he would have only used it three times which still is not sufficient amount of usage to be able to know exact details which itachi obviously knew, thus shisui himself as the one who told him since itachi had never used the jutsu before...
SO if shisui used it more then once a decade then its obvious he had to of had hashirama's chakra... which is the very reason he had to of awakened the jutsu in the first place... so yes, shisui had hashirama's chakra... which is why him being tobi is so plausible considering tobi just happens to have the same chakra too... making shisui have the same hair, body, height and chakra as tobi making them so likely the same person its almost canon, just waiting for confirmation...


There's nothing that shows Shisui had to wait 10 years between using his technique. Only that a non-uchiha had to wait that long, without some kind of aid. There is plenty of evidence (kakashi) that shows even the normal Sharigan drains chakra faster, and that using MS takes a huge toll on the body, that even requires hospitalization.


Speaking of which, why is Kakashi still alive, much less moving around? He used Chidori a couple of times just fighting Zabuza, fought the other Swordsmen (off panel), ran all the way to where Naruto is now, fought some more, tried Kamui on the giant Power Rangers monster of the week, and used Chidori 2 more times.

Shouldn't he be seriously dead by now..again.

If u believe shisui did not have to wait a decade between each use of Kotoamatsukami then u ur self are admitting u believe shisui had hashirama chakra... since its the only chakra capable of using shisui's genjutsu more then once a decade...

and again, when itachi spoke of needing to have hashirama's chakra to use shisui's genjutsu (koto) more then once a decade... a picture of shisui facing an uchiha wall was shown... the same position shisui was in on the cliff from itahci's memory...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/550/16

Here u see the same position and black uchiha shirt warn by uchiha shisui...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/590/10

See, itachi was referring to shisui when talking about using hashirama's chakra with kotoamatsukami... why else would itachi have a memory about shisui when thinking about using Koto more then one a decade with hashirama's chakra... and since itachi knew nothing of danzou with hashirama's chakra then the reference could not of possibly come from him... it was because of shisui and itachi knew about him....

SHISUI UCHIHA HAD HASHIRAMA'S CHAKRA... not sure how, but he obviously did... blow it numi....

For the love of everything good on this planet, people, do not reply to KYF. The guy is recycling already debunked points, let the little idiot be and he'll probably go back to writing fan predictions and actually doing something useful.


In all honesty, I just wished Kishi had something like Oda's SBS to at least rule out Tobi theories that aren't canon. That'd be a brain saver, even if he'd still hold 3~4 people as possibilities.

you should have thrown him on your ignore list a long time ago i did it when he was in the prime of his stupidity it worked out great.

As for kishi ruling out possibilities it's unlikely he's going to milk this thing as long as he can being the end of the manga soon (2 years with the way he stretches shit maybe a year) he's going to ride this wave for a while..

It being obito would be so stupid cause logically it can't be him kakashi was still a kid by the kyuubi attack the one who attacked minato was his height it'd not obito it's shisui whoever this is they do know him but forgot about him probably faked his death.

we know that madara knows him so whoever the the fuck he is has been around since madara's time or at least since hiruzens prime time. then again he may pull something dumb and actually make it obito with some retraded explanation but i doubt it more because i honestly don't wanna see shisui or obito i want a new character we've never seen yet. he has to be an uchiha cause he spams his sharingan shit like crazy..

naruto should already switch to kurama mode and fucking beat tobi thats the only way..

i also refuse to believe obito or shisui(though not much is known about him) have progressed so far as to easily fight on part against these 3 lolll its fucking mental.

tobi isn't shisui or obito im sure of that.

Naruto should go Sage/Tailed beast mode combo. He would be beast and should be able to beat Tobi without much help

LOL@KYF. Dude has finally lost it.

1) There is no such thing a MS+. In terms of genjutsu strength you can't really compare it with Tsukuyomi. They obviously effect the brain in different ways. Tsukuyomi controls the PERCEPTION of time (not actual time kyf) and completely breaks a persons will, something Kotoamatsukami doesn't do. The closest thing it could do implant the idea "You are now a crybaby emo bitch" which the recipient would respond "Oh so I'm sasuke now. Roger that."

2) Shisui has never had Hashirama charkra. GTFO with that shit.



3) Perhaps I'm wrong about the time length between using Kotoamatsukami. I still think Shisui should have been able to use it more often then that being his own jutsu, but whatever.

MS+? I know there's an MS-DOS...

Does Konnaha_yellow_flash realize that it only takes one eye to use Kotoamatsukami? Does he also realize that Shisui had two eyes when he was alive? Therefore he could use it once, and then once more within the decade.

And if it takes Hashirama's chakra to surpass Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu with the MS then please explain how Kakashi seems to be the only one that can use Kamui (offensively)?

[QUOTE]LOL@KYF. Dude has finally lost it.

1) There is no such thing a MS+. In terms of genjutsu strength you can't really compare it with Tsukuyomi. They obviously effect the brain in different ways. Tsukuyomi controls the PERCEPTION of time (not actual time kyf) and completely breaks a persons will, something Kotoamatsukami doesn't do. The closest thing it could do implant the idea "You are now a crybaby emo bitch" which the recipient would respond "Oh so I'm sasuke now. Roger that."


MS+ is a term I use with shisui's MS because its not just a basic one, its much more obviously... thus the +...

Cannot compare in strength, right... Tsukuyomi is the most powerful genjutsu of the MS and itachi's was the best... however, it still does not compare to shisui's Kotoamatsukami that doesn't just control a persons perception... it controls the mind of whoever its used on... altering perception can create an illusion which can affect the enemy, but only in limited ways yet Koto by controlling what the enemy believes to be true and false literally controls the enemies perception of reality itself...

In a matter of strength tsukuyomi is the top genjutsu of the uchiha... but Kotoamatsumaki that is so powerful it controls the enemy without them knowing... is capable of controlling a jinchurriki who has control of his bijuu (yagura), can control an EMS user who not even naruto could convince (sasuke) and even defeat edo tensai which madara did, but needed to break his summoning contract with kabuto because even with a RG+EMS doujutsu he did not have a genjutsu capable of breaking it like Kotoamatsukami did when itachi used it...
No Kotoamatsukami is way beyond even a EMS or RG tsukuyomi otherwise madara would not of needed to break his contract with kabuto as opposed to breaking edo tensai's control over him like itachi did...

2) Shisui has never had Hashirama charkra. GTFO with that shit.

Yea, because The fact he was able to awaken Kotoamatsukami which is a MS beyond the regular which can only be attained by use of hashirama's chakra as shown by edo madara and tobi... two others who both used his power to increase the power of thier SG's... Apparently the whole "SHisui's Kotoamatsukami needs a whole decade to recharge, discounting senju hashirama's chakra that is..." as explained by itachi and referring to shisui, shown by the pic of him when its being explained... or just consider the fact shisui has clearly used his own genjutsu more then twice in his lifetime so he clearly had to have hashirama chakra to do that... thats three references to shisui with hashirama chakra...

1. Ao mistakes hashirama's chakra in danzou's arm and shoulder as shisui's...
2. Its confirmed that hashirama's chakra is what it takes to use shisui's Kotoamatsukami more then one a decade, meaning shisui without hashirama's chakra could of never used his own genjutsu more then twice in his lifetime without that power... The fact its recognized that hashirama's chakra needs to be used should explain everything... including its need to awaken such a genjutsu in the first place...
3. With the power of hashirama's chakra increasing the power of the SG as shown with edo madara and tobi... shisui's awakening of kotoamatsukami which is a doujutsu beyond the basic MS tsukuyomi, just as tobi's T/S jutsu is beyond amaterasu and the RG is beyond the EMS... meaning the use of hashirama's chakra like with the other two uchiha must have been used to take shisui's MS to another level as it was done before with the other two...


Thats three references to shisui having hashirama chakra... yea, get used to it... I just cannot wait for the manga to reveal it so I can throw it in so many faces...

3) Perhaps I'm wrong about the time length between using Kotoamatsukami. I still think Shisui should have been able to use it more often then that being his own jutsu, but whatever.

This is what I am trying to explain, its only logical that shisui had hashirama chakra due to the fact it was HIS GENJUTSU he awakened... meaning he should be able to use it as often as a original user should be able to considering he was strong enough to create the technique... Why would shisui have the POWER to awaken such a powerful genjutsu, but not actually use it... makes no sense... if hashirama's chakra is what it takes to use it then its only logical its what it would take to awaken it too, don't u think...

Look at tobi... he has the power awaken his T/S ninjutsu as well as use it whenever he wants too... Edo madara had the ower to awaken the RG and use it has he sees fit too... WHy shisui the only one who is recognized to awaken a genjutsu that needs hashirama's chakra to use regularly as an original user should, but shisui still somehow does not have hashirama's chakra... its not a logical conclusion which is why I do not understand the constant BS I get for my recognition of shisui with hashirama's chakra, which he would ahve to have in the first place to use his own genjutsu...

Does Konnaha_yellow_flash realize that it only takes one eye to use Kotoamatsukami? Does he also realize that Shisui had two eyes when he was alive? Therefore he could use it once, and then once more within the decade.

And if it takes Hashirama's chakra to surpass Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu with the MS then please explain how Kakashi seems to be the only one that can use Kamui (offensively)?

SO shisui used his own genjutsu four times in his life time... still not enough times for him to figure out how a completely new MS genjutsu works in detail... Still makes no sense considering shisui had the power to awaken such a genjutsu, but for some reason did not have the same power to use it like its suppose to, more then once a decade...
I Mean what about itachi's comment about shisui's genjutsu NEEDING hashirama's chakra to use regularly, then showing a pic of shisui from behind, is not self explanatory...

:SHisui awakened a genjutsu beyond the basic which is only a feat shown to be done by hashirama's chakra...

:Its confirmed that hashirama's chakra is whats needed to use the genjutsu too...

Obviosly shisui had to of had hashirama's chakra to awaken and use his own genjutsu... how else was it awakened and used more then once a decade... or how did itachi even know Kotoamatsukami needed hashirama's chakra to use it more then once a decade...



Judging by the new evidence of edo madara turning his EMS into a RG by adding hashirama's chakra to the mix... I think its likely that kakashi will turn out to have a direct link to the senju or uzumaki from the second son of RS... I guess through the hatake...

MS+? I know there's an MS-DOS...

Is that kind of like A+ (as in certification)?

:Its confirmed that hashirama's chakra is whats needed to use the genjutsu too

I'm sorry, but no it wasn't. It was only confirmed that using Hashirama's chakra reduced the cooldown from 10 years to 1 day (hence Danzo having Hashirama's cells implanted into Shisui's arm). Itachi never said "Hashirama's chakra is needed to use it, period."

SHISUI UCHIHA HAD HASHIRAMA'S CHAKRA... not sure how, but he obviously did.

It makes sense expect the part of how he got hashirama's chakra.

So did he use it once, realize he can't use it again till 10 years pass and try it again? How did he know to use his chakra to shorten the time? Too many questions there

KYF... I guess Shisui could use Kotoamatsukami regularly, but for an outsider to use it as effectively, it would need a strong chakra source like that of a Senju (Hashirama being the strongest). That is why Danzo implanted it in his arm, because it might have made it easier for an outsider to use it just like an Uchiha...

MS+, the new application for your iPad that allows you to brainwash your friends into voting for Mitt Romney without them even knowing, Much easier to use than MS' three-days-in-a-couple-of-seconds of Carly Mae Jepsen singing about the hole in her bucket as a torture device. Get it now for 4.99$ with a free service of making your body disappear after you drown yourself in a river and making idiots think you're still alive!

People, please, he's just repeating what he said in the last month. He has nothing new but complete nonsense.

Why would any Uchiha besides Madara and or Tobi have, and or gain access to Harashirmas DNA? How could the 2 ever even be in the same body besides Madara/Tobi? Senju was sparse, at the time Shusui lived the ONLY KNOWN SENJU ALIVE IS THE SAME ONE ALIVE NOW, TSUNADE WHOM WAS ON A HIATUS AWAY FROM KONOHA. I'm not one to believe Hara's was needed by Shusui, thats simply nonsensical in the set up and grand scheme of things.

KYF... I guess Shisui could use Kotoamatsukami regularly, but for an outsider to use it as effectively, it would need a strong chakra source like that of a Senju (Hashirama being the strongest). That is why Danzo implanted it in his arm, because it might have made it easier for an outsider to use it just like an Uchiha...

That's my guess too. Shisui would have needed to use the ability several times before he actually learned the extent of it. Probably the time factor was not a major problem for him, but if the eye got transplated, the ten year span should have come in effect.

I'm sorry, but no it wasn't. It was only confirmed that using Hashirama's chakra reduced the cooldown from 10 years to 1 day (hence Danzo having Hashirama's cells implanted into Shisui's arm). Itachi never said "Hashirama's chakra is needed to use it, period."

Its confirmed top use Kotoamatsukami regularly... as an original user should, considering th eguy had the power to awaken such a powerful genjutsu itself...

And DANZOU DID NOT HAVE SHISUI'S ARM, IT NEVER HAPPENED!!! SHow me where shisui's arm is used because multiple times only the stealing and tranplantation of shisui's eye is mention by Ao, itachi and even shisui himself in the flash back... explain to me why not only why danzou has shisui's arm without any mention what so ever...
But explain why shisui's arm is even necessary when danzou has hashirama's chakra from cell implantation which is the best chakra any shinobi can use... its 10x greater then any uchiha's power... which is why its hashirama's cells that are implanted to increase the power of the SG and not more uchiha's cells to produce more power... this is just a nonsensical argument considering how the manga has portrayed hashirama's power compared to even the uchiha's power...

KYF... I guess Shisui could use Kotoamatsukami regularly, but for an outsider to use it as effectively, it would need a strong chakra source like that of a Senju (Hashirama being the strongest). That is why Danzo implanted it in his arm, because it might have made it easier for an outsider to use it just like an Uchiha...

But it makes no sense... think about it... if Uchiha shisui was just a basic uchiha with basic uchiha chakra like that of sasuke, itachi, Izuna and madara then why could they not use the Kotoamatsukami eye as easily as shisui could??? If it was as simple as that then Itachi would of had the power, as a very powerful uchiha, to use shisui's eye regularly too... However, itachi knew that only the power of hashirama was capable of using the eye more then once a decade... which had to be from knowing its what shisui used since everything else itachi had to of learned about Koto was from shisui as well... plus itachi had no way to know danzou had hashirama's chakra...

Think about it, if hashirama's chakra is what it takes to use the genjutsu regularly then its the very power it should take to awaken the jutsu as well... otherwise any other uchiha should be capable of doing the same yet no other has... not even uchiha madara with his EMS or RG...

Why would any Uchiha besides Madara and or Tobi have, and or gain access to Harashirmas DNA? How could the 2 ever even be in the same body besides Madara/Tobi? Senju was sparse, at the time Shusui lived the ONLY KNOWN SENJU ALIVE IS THE SAME ONE ALIVE NOW, TSUNADE WHOM WAS ON A HIATUS AWAY FROM KONOHA. I'm not one to believe Hara's was needed by Shusui, thats simply nonsensical in the set up and grand scheme of things.

Nonsensical... really.. how??? So the fact only shisui could create and use Kotoamatsukami regularly which requires hashirama's chakra to do so means nothing to anyone, other then a nonsensical conclusion for it to be used by shisui despite everything...

Tell me everyone... if shisui was a regular uchiha, with regular uchiha chakra like all the other MS users then why was it only shisui awakened a genjutsu beyond tsukuyomi... the most powerful one known in the manga...??? WHy is it shisui's chakra was mitsaken for hashirama's... why was it itachi explained hashirama's chakra was needed to actually use Kotoamatsukami regularly like shisui... instead of once a decade... and why its been shown hashirama's chakra can take the SG to a whole other level when combined with the SG/MS/EMS as it did with edo madara...

WHy is it with three serious implications of shisui not only having, but needing hashirama's chakra to even have Kotoamatsukami... is it people still believe he has just basic uchiha abilities as well as power???

That's my guess too. Shisui would have needed to use the ability several times before he actually learned the extent of it. Probably the time factor was not a major problem for him, but if the eye got transplated, the ten year span should have come in effect.

Explain how this is a logical conclusion exactly??? SHisui can awaken and use Koto easily, but no other uchiha with the same power can... the only logical conclusion is that shisui had such a powerful chakra that it takes hashirama's chakra to equal its power to actually use shisui's Kotoamatsukami... don't you think.....

If hashirama's chakra is required for the use of Kotoamatsukami then shisui himself must of had an amazingly powerful chakra... which is why it had a special color... also why AO could not tell it from the hashirama chakra in danzou's arm and shoulder...

Also, you know why shisui's chakra was seen in danzou's right arm, shoulder and EYE... not because it was shisui's arm or that the power of his eye was flowing into the shoulder and arm... its because the hashirama chakra is what danzou was using to power the eye as its needed due to the power required to use the eye properly... The power being used in the eye was simply due to the fact hashirama's chakra was required to use the jutsu properly... as opposed to any other chakra of any uchiha....

If anything, just explain to me how shisui could create such a powerful genjutsu and use it so easily as its original user... but anyone else besides someone using hashirama's chakra, which is the strongest out there, is required to use shisui's genjutsu as he did too...

I know I keep having to repeat myself, allot, but its no sinking in for some reason...

How long have you been reading manga?

Ok you made me laugh right there.

Its confirmed top use Kotoamatsukami regularly... as an original user should, considering th eguy had the power to awaken such a powerful genjutsu itself...

And DANZOU DID NOT HAVE SHISUI'S ARM, IT NEVER HAPPENED!!! SHow me where shisui's arm is used because multiple times only the stealing and tranplantation of shisui's eye is mention by Ao, itachi and even shisui himself in the flash back... explain to me why not only why danzou has shisui's arm without any mention what so ever...
But explain why shisui's arm is even necessary when danzou has hashirama's chakra from cell implantation which is the best chakra any shinobi can use... its 10x greater then any uchiha's power... which is why its hashirama's cells that are implanted to increase the power of the SG and not more uchiha's cells to produce more power... this is just a nonsensical argument considering how the manga has portrayed hashirama's power compared to even the uchiha's power...



But it makes no sense... think about it... if Uchiha shisui was just a basic uchiha with basic uchiha chakra like that of sasuke, itachi, Izuna and madara then why could they not use the Kotoamatsukami eye as easily as shisui could??? If it was as simple as that then Itachi would of had the power, as a very powerful uchiha, to use shisui's eye regularly too... However, itachi knew that only the power of hashirama was capable of using the eye more then once a decade... which had to be from knowing its what shisui used since everything else itachi had to of learned about Koto was from shisui as well... plus itachi had no way to know danzou had hashirama's chakra...

Think about it, if hashirama's chakra is what it takes to use the genjutsu regularly then its the very power it should take to awaken the jutsu as well... otherwise any other uchiha should be capable of doing the same yet no other has... not even uchiha madara with his EMS or RG...



Nonsensical... really.. how??? So the fact only shisui could create and use Kotoamatsukami regularly which requires hashirama's chakra to do so means nothing to anyone, other then a nonsensical conclusion for it to be used by shisui despite everything...

Tell me everyone... if shisui was a regular uchiha, with regular uchiha chakra like all the other MS users then why was it only shisui awakened a genjutsu beyond tsukuyomi... the most powerful one known in the manga...??? WHy is it shisui's chakra was mitsaken for hashirama's... why was it itachi explained hashirama's chakra was needed to actually use Kotoamatsukami regularly like shisui... instead of once a decade... and why its been shown hashirama's chakra can take the SG to a whole other level when combined with the SG/MS/EMS as it did with edo madara...

WHy is it with three serious implications of shisui not only having, but needing hashirama's chakra to even have Kotoamatsukami... is it people still believe he has just basic uchiha abilities as well as power???



Explain how this is a logical conclusion exactly??? SHisui can awaken and use Koto easily, but no other uchiha with the same power can... the only logical conclusion is that shisui had such a powerful chakra that it takes hashirama's chakra to equal its power to actually use shisui's Kotoamatsukami... don't you think.....

If hashirama's chakra is required for the use of Kotoamatsukami then shisui himself must of had an amazingly powerful chakra... which is why it had a special color... also why AO could not tell it from the hashirama chakra in danzou's arm and shoulder...

Also, you know why shisui's chakra was seen in danzou's right arm, shoulder and EYE... not because it was shisui's arm or that the power of his eye was flowing into the shoulder and arm... its because the hashirama chakra is what danzou was using to power the eye as its needed due to the power required to use the eye properly... The power being used in the eye was simply due to the fact hashirama's chakra was required to use the jutsu properly... as opposed to any other chakra of any uchiha....

If anything, just explain to me how shisui could create such a powerful genjutsu and use it so easily as its original user... but anyone else besides someone using hashirama's chakra, which is the strongest out there, is required to use shisui's genjutsu as he did too...

I know I keep having to repeat myself, allot, but its no sinking in for some reason...

I actually get what u're saying, the question is how danzo knew of hashi's chakra being needed to pwer shisui's eye in the first place. Did he experiment several times b4 he found out or shisui himself told him?

I know I keep having to repeat myself, allot, but its no sinking in for some reason...

You know what, Eric Hovind must be saying the same thing. He's pretty much regurgitating his father's arguments, but somehow people still don't buy the Earth is 6000 years old, all the species fit in a tiny arc for 40 days and that "kinds" can be defined by comparing similar mammals to a banana. Gee, I wonder why...

Here is a hint to who tobi is:

http://i.imgur.com/FFweK.jpg

I'm just going out on a ledge here.

1. Scientifically(and sociably) it may be known that Hashirama had extremes amount of chakra( He created the forest around the Leaf village for goodness Sake's).
2. Danzou got his "power Ups" implanted via Orochimaru. (stated by Tobi)
3. Orochimaru knew the capabilities of Hashi DNA (ex: Yamato)
4. Uchiha's don't need extra accessories to use their OWN abilities. Obviously the guy (shusi) used his tech more than once. He more than likely had a moral code of his own that he didn't SPAM it. We don't know how much concentration it might takes.
5. Itachi was telling NARUTO that HE (as in Naruto)would NEED Hashirama Senju chakra to use the eye any sooner than 10 years. NOT everyone including Shisui. Keep in mind Naruto PROBABLY HAS the same amount as the 1st, BUT Itachi wouldn't know that.
5b. Danzo was injected with Hashi DNA strictly to maintain the Sharinghans and the jutsu he would use with them.


EDIT: More about the Mind control jutsu. You have to think it is NOT a battle primed jutsu you are literally making decisions THROUGH that person. You would have to plan it through to do it right. Except of course unless it is something simple like "I am jumping off this cliff".
BUT changing someone's mind AFTER you stop controlling them is a different story. Let's say he placed it on Danzou okay so what about The Uchiha that were planning the Coup ? He gonna do it to ALL of them? No cause then HE would be taking the free will from most of his clans leaders. He was similar to Naruto, that being said... if it was as simple as "Protect Konoha" I am sure it would have been done.
Danzou got his eye because he ordered him to give it to him. But far as him putting mind control on Itachi? No, what would the command be? "Love Konoha more than your people except Sasuke, pretend to be evil so he can be strong and oh yeah kill the clan too while your at it.PS, if you die and come back under Edo Tensei, this will still be in effect."

In other words If there was a trick pulled on Itachi then it wasn't THAT detailed just a simple facade (like he did to Sasuke) from a friend, NO MS genjutsu...lol.


I know a lot of you guys have high IQ's and degrees that mean your really smart. But sometimes, just sometimes it doesn't take so much thinking . My feeble 134 IQ is all it takes at times.

You know what, Eric Hovind must be saying the same thing. He's pretty much regurgitating his father's arguments, but somehow people still don't buy the Earth is 6000 years old, all the species fit in a tiny arc for 40 days and that "kinds" can be defined by comparing similar mammals to a banana. Gee, I wonder why...

This has no relevance to my argument. Thats an argument of belief based on nothing but the plagiarism of much earlier belief that the Egyptians already had, that was also based on nothing other then astrology and imagination itself... Nothing compared to an argument about reasoning of a genjutsu requiring something "hashirama's chakra" for proper use must also be whats required for the very awakening, creation of the genjutsu in the first place.

Its not hard...

:No Other chakra, but hashirama's can use shisui's eye but once a decade...

:SHisui's chakra has already been mistaken for hashirama's chakra.. after the use of his genjutsu because danzou was using it, with hashirama's chakra too... just as itachi said it has to be...

Conclusion: For some reason or another, shisui had hashirama's chakra...

I mean how exactly does hashirama's chakra become a requirement for proper use, because no other chakra will due, not even uchiha's chakra... but any other chakra or uchiha's could possibly awaken, create such a powerful genjutsu that requires hashirama's chakra for proper use...

Don't you think that it would be a more reasonable conclusion that if hashirama's chakra is a requirement for proper use then the power that had to of been used to actually awaken, create such a powerful genjutsu had to be the same chakra, or a chakra just as strong as the chakra that is required to power it properly...

IMO, shisui most likely got it from being an unknown survivor of Orochimaru's experiment in which he injected hashirama's blood into sixty children and one was known to survive... ANd as an uchiha, a descendant of RS himself, just as madara was to... who was able to fuse with hashirama's cells completely as seen in recent chapters. SHisui can likely do the same as well... So if he really was one of the children then he most likely would have survived...

And DANZOU DID NOT HAVE SHISUI'S ARM, IT NEVER HAPPENED!!! SHow me where shisui's arm is used because multiple times only the stealing and tranplantation of shisui's eye is mention by Ao, itachi and even shisui himself in the flash back... explain to me why not only why danzou has shisui's arm without any mention what so ever...
But explain why shisui's arm is even necessary when danzou has hashirama's chakra from cell implantation which is the best chakra any shinobi can use... its 10x greater then any uchiha's power... which is why its hashirama's cells that are implanted to increase the power of the SG and not more uchiha's cells to produce more power... this is just a nonsensical argument considering how the manga has portrayed hashirama's power compared to even the uchiha's power...

While the arm itself wasn't Shisui's arm itself, it contained his chakra network to sustain the Sharingan eyes, whose powers were complemented by the Shodai's cells in the very arm. As for the chakra power and potency, it's simply because Senju had the power of the body...

But it makes no sense... think about it... if Uchiha shisui was just a basic uchiha with basic uchiha chakra like that of sasuke, itachi, Izuna and madara then why could they not use the Kotoamatsukami eye as easily as shisui could???

While I agree that he isn't a basic Uchiha, he managed to develop his own unique technique like Tobi has (if he really is an Uchiha). Itachi used Tsukiyomi but Sasuke has never mentioned the technique's name when using his Genjutsu. Thus, we can assume that Shisui's unique MS jutsu manifested differently compared to the other Uchiha.

Itachi's ace was Tsukiyomi, Sasuke has his Enton Release, Kakashi has his Kamui and Shisui had his Kotoamatsukami.

If it was as simple as that then Itachi would of had the power, as a very powerful uchiha, to use shisui's eye regularly too... However, itachi knew that only the power of hashirama was capable of using the eye more then once a decade... which had to be from knowing its what shisui used since everything else itachi had to of learned about Koto was from shisui as well...

That doesn't compute. Either Shisui was just gifted in Genjutsu amongst Uchihas or his Kotoamatsukami was the only Genjutsu that afforded him that unique ability. Removing an Uchiha's eye from the body where it is fueled by Uchiha chakra makes the eye operate much less effeciently with higher requirements. Heck, Kakashi used it for a single fight and passed out after possessing the Sharingan for more than a decade, to accomodate his fighting style and chakra capacity to it. So, for anyone else, the application of a specialty Genjutsu should obviously be very taxing. However, that doesn't mean that Hashirama was needed to perform the jutsu simply because it is a Sharingan jutsu, which is independent of any sort of reliance on the Senju powers. That is like saying, Hashirama's forest jutsus would be made more effective with Uchiha DNA.

plus itachi had no way to know danzou had hashirama's chakra...

That is debatable. After the disappearance of Shisui's body, and to mention his own admittance of Danzo taking his eye, Itachi had more than enough reason to be wary of Danzo. If Ao could identify Shisui's chakra in Danzo's arm with the Byakugan, then Itachi could well have identified the chakra source of Hashirama and Shisui in Danzo's arm. He had the Uchiha eyes and the Senju chakras - the perfect combination.

With all that Itachi knows about Konoha, uncovering the truth about Danzo's misdeeds is rather feasible for Itachi, if he hadn't know it beforehand already.

Think about it, if hashirama's chakra is what it takes to use the genjutsu regularly then its the very power it should take to awaken the jutsu as well... otherwise any other uchiha should be capable of doing the same yet no other has... not even uchiha madara with his EMS or RG...

If Hashirama's chakra is needed to awaken special Sharingan abilities, then would the converse be applicable as well? Uchiha DNA to augment Senju abilities? No such mention of this has been made so its a bit of a moot point. I strongly believe that Hashirama's chakra was used to augment the frequency of the jutsu and maybe its potency on par with the original, however, simply due to the lack of the original Uchiha body, which is the originator of the jutsu.

Nonsensical... really.. how??? So the fact only shisui could create and use Kotoamatsukami regularly which requires hashirama's chakra to do so means nothing to anyone, other then a nonsensical conclusion for it to be used by shisui despite everything...

Already mentioned the context of relevancy of Hashirama's chakra.

Tell me everyone... if shisui was a regular uchiha, with regular uchiha chakra like all the other MS users then why was it only shisui awakened a genjutsu beyond tsukuyomi... the most powerful one known in the manga...??? WHy is it shisui's chakra was mitsaken for hashirama's... why was it itachi explained hashirama's chakra was needed to actually use Kotoamatsukami regularly like shisui... instead of once a decade... and why its been shown hashirama's chakra can take the SG to a whole other level when combined with the SG/MS/EMS as it did with edo madara...

Shisui is not a regular Uchiha. The regular Uchihas are the unnamed Uchihas. Also, comparing Tsukiyomi and Kotoamatsukami can't be compared on the same benchmark since they differ in application, perception and consequence.

Hashirama's chakra was used to ease the effort for others wanting to use Shisui's Kotoamatsukami. His chakra helped in evolving the Sharingan into a different Doujutsu, not augmenting the individual strength of their techniques.

WHy is it with three serious implications of shisui not only having, but needing hashirama's chakra to even have Kotoamatsukami... is it people still believe he has just basic uchiha abilities as well as power???

He was an Uchiha famed for his prowess and techniques, so he obviously wasn't a regular/basic/generic Uchiha.

Explain how this is a logical conclusion exactly??? SHisui can awaken and use Koto easily, but no other uchiha with the same power can... the only logical conclusion is that shisui had such a powerful chakra that it takes hashirama's chakra to equal its power to actually use shisui's Kotoamatsukami... don't you think.....

If hashirama's chakra is required for the use of Kotoamatsukami then shisui himself must of had an amazingly powerful chakra... which is why it had a special color... also why AO could not tell it from the hashirama chakra in danzou's arm and shoulder...

Also, you know why shisui's chakra was seen in danzou's right arm, shoulder and EYE... not because it was shisui's arm or that the power of his eye was flowing into the shoulder and arm... its because the hashirama chakra is what danzou was using to power the eye as its needed due to the power required to use the eye properly... The power being used in the eye was simply due to the fact hashirama's chakra was required to use the jutsu properly... as opposed to any other chakra of any uchiha....

If anything, just explain to me how shisui could create such a powerful genjutsu and use it so easily as its original user... but anyone else besides someone using hashirama's chakra, which is the strongest out there, is required to use shisui's genjutsu as he did too...

I know I keep having to repeat myself, allot, but its no sinking in for some reason...

I've already explained my reasons above. Deliberate on them a bit before responding.

I missed your post jericho...

[QUOTE=jericho Uzimaki;2116612]I'm just going out on a ledge here.

1. Scientifically(and sociably) it may be known that Hashirama had extremes amount of chakra( He created the forest around the Leaf village for goodness Sake's).
2. Danzou got his "power Ups" implanted via Orochimaru. (stated by Tobi)
3. Orochimaru knew the capabilities of Hashi DNA (ex: Yamato)
4. Uchiha's don't need extra accessories to use their OWN abilities. Obviously the guy (shusi) used his tech more than once. He more than likely had a moral code of his own that he didn't SPAM it. We don't know how much concentration it might takes.
5. Itachi was telling NARUTO that HE (as in Naruto)would NEED Hashirama Senju chakra to use the eye any sooner than 10 years. NOT everyone including Shisui. Keep in mind Naruto PROBABLY HAS the same amount as the 1st, BUT Itachi wouldn't know that.
5b. Danzo was injected with Hashi DNA strictly to maintain the Sharinghans and the jutsu he would use with them.


I think You are under the impression that it takes quantity of chakra judging by your post when I think its quality of chakra which only hashirama himself had, that we have not seen since naruto's own Yang chakra kyuubi mode which also reacted with ashirama's power/mokuton element...

IMO, with hashirama senju having abilities of both the senju and uzumaki clan...(physical energy, powerful chakra=senju and powerful life energy and vitality=uzumaki power as stated by the manga) Its why his chakra is so special IMO... With hashirama's close relationship to the uzumaki, I think its very likely considering the uzumaki and senju are probably both directly descended from RS's younger son who inherited the Yang portion of his fathers thus the juubi's power which is based on Physical energy and life energy...

EDIT: More about the Mind control jutsu. You have to think it is NOT a battle primed jutsu you are literally making decisions THROUGH that person. You would have to plan it through to do it right. Except of course unless it is something simple like "I am jumping off this cliff".
BUT changing someone's mind AFTER you stop controlling them is a different story. Let's say he placed it on Danzou okay so what about The Uchiha that were planning the Coup ? He gonna do it to ALL of them? No cause then HE would be taking the free will from most of his clans leaders. He was similar to Naruto, that being said... if it was as simple as "Protect Konoha" I am sure it would have been done.
Danzou got his eye because he ordered him to give it to him. But far as him putting mind control on Itachi? No, what would the command be? "Love Konoha more than your people except Sasuke, pretend to be evil so he can be strong and oh yeah kill the clan too while your at it.PS, if you die and come back under Edo Tensei, this will still be in effect."

Except clearly shisui can be seen wielding his kotoamatsukami while explaining his failure of stopping the coup while losing his eye to danzou... look...(shisui;s only eye is in MS form while shisui is explaining his vague and illogical story to itachi)http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/590/11

Then notice that when itachi got the eye from shisui, it was not in MS form, but in SG form instead which can only mean the MS was used from the time he was explaining his story to taking out his eye to give it to itachi... We know it had to be regular SG because itachi said himself that he could not use shisui's eye until ten years after that moment, thus it was not in MS form otherwise itachi could of used it to stop the Coup d'etat...

Think about it... why would shisui have his eye in MS form while trying to explain an unreasonable reason why he failed and had to die... then give it back in regular SG form...

IMO, because shisui used his Koto eye to make itachi, who knew just how strong he and his genjutsu was, believe it could actually fail so easily as well as shisui lose an eye to danzou in a fight... And the only reason shisui would possibly give his MS eye back in SG form is because he just used it and did not want itachi to have the power to stop the coup on his own...

think about it... there is a problem with shisui's logic... he wanted itachi to use his eye to protect the village which is the whole premise for his giving itachi his eye , but instead of giving it to itachi in MS form as it clearly was... in order to be used to mind control his father into stopping the coup, thus stopping a revolution that could tear the leaf village apart... instead it was given in SG form because shisui had just used it or just wanted the coup d'etat to happen...

:SHisui somehow fails to control anyone in the hierarchy of konoha or the uchiha... despite the fact Koto has the power to control and EMS user, even when being used by a crow with a simple comand implanted as well as break the control of edo tensai which not even madara's EMS+RG doujutsu could which is why he had to use a release of his summoning contract as opposed to breaking out by force with a more powerful mind control jutsu like itachi did...

:SHisui again fails to stop the coup by giving itachi his eye in basic SG form which cannot be used for mind control... despite the fact it was in MS form for use of Kotoamatsukami right before shisui gave itachi his eye, it was charged up and ready to used...

Obviously shisui did not want the coup to be stopped because he on two separate occasions had the opportunity to stop it with his genjutsu, but just didn't...

In other words If there was a trick pulled on Itachi then it wasn't THAT detailed just a simple facade (like he did to Sasuke) from a friend, NO MS genjutsu...lol.


I know a lot of you guys have high IQ's and degrees that mean your really smart. But sometimes, just sometimes it doesn't take so much thinking . My feeble 134 IQ is all it takes at times.

You are not taking into consideration the fact shisui clearly had his SG in MS form, charged up... yet once itachi got it, it was back in regular SG form meaning it had to of been used because the eye was already charged up as seen in the panel with shisui explaining his vague story of failure to stop the coup and protect his other eye...
And since itachi needed the decade it takes for his chakra to recharge the eye... itachi clearly did not get the eye back in MS form as it was just moments before itachi got it to somehow protect the village with its uselessness for another decade while the coup was merely days away...

You see what I am trying to point out here?

EDIT: SOmething to consider... how did tobi know about Orochimaru's experiments with hashirama's blood, cells and power? He knew of his ability to use hashirama's cells in experimentation as well as danzou's use of Orochimaru for his own purposes... Not even itachi knew of that... only hiruzen, Yamato, kakashi and now team kakashi also know of this... For tobi to know this he would of had to of been involved with Orochimaru and his experiments as a fellow shinobi scientist like Oro...

Oro even knew of his own plans to revive the juubi... making tobi wonder how much Oro really knew, showing anger and surprise as a reaction.

While the arm itself wasn't Shisui's arm itself, it contained his chakra network to sustain the Sharingan eyes, whose powers were complemented by the Shodai's cells in the very arm. As for the chakra power and potency, it's simply because Senju had the power of the body...

Were did you get "chakra network " From??? What was shown was hashirama's chakra in danzou's arm, shoulder and powering shisui's eye too, as its supposed to. It was reveled that the chakra in danzou's arm, shoulder and eye was shisui's because it had the same special color... such a special color AO could never forget... But in actuality, it was not shisui's chakra being used by that arm, but hashirama's chakra from cell implantation.

So in the end, AO had mistaken hashirama's chakra for shisui's because they both apparently have the same special color... which was the first imlication of shisui having hashirama chakra or something just as strong...

And the senju's do have a powerful body from powerful physical energy, but its only hashirama himself, the only senju in history, that had a powerful body equal or close to that of RS's younger son with both the physical energy of the senju as well as the powerful life force energy of the uzumaki...


While I agree that he isn't a basic Uchiha, he managed to develop his own unique technique like Tobi has (if he really is an Uchiha). Itachi used Tsukiyomi but Sasuke has never mentioned the technique's name when using his Genjutsu. Thus, we can assume that Shisui's unique MS jutsu manifested differently compared to the other Uchiha.

Itachi's ace was Tsukiyomi, Sasuke has his Enton Release, Kakashi has his Kamui and Shisui had his Kotoamatsukami.

But the basic genjutsu alongn with a ninjutsu awakened by an uchiha is Tsukuyomi as stated by the DB#3... And sasuke did use tsukuyomi here against danzou right after he was cursed then immobilized... Danzou confimrs sasuke is using tsukuyomi because he compares it to itachi's which can control time and space...

Then because Madara can use sasanoo... he has to have tsukuyomi and amaterasu as MS jutsu because their mastery is required for sasanoo's use as stated by the DB#3 too...

So itachi and sasuke had tsukuyomi... then if madara's eye's combined with his brother Izuna's then he as well had to of had tsukuyomi... meaning both izuna and madara had tsukuyomi and amaterasu for their MS jutsu just as itachi and sasuke did...

Yet, somehow shisui was able to awaken Kotoamatsukami which way surpasses tsukuyomi as a genjutsu... and just as the combining of hashirama's chakra with Edo madara's EMS... it was taken to a whole other level becoming the RG. Then tobi also having hashirama's chakra from cell implantation, just happens to have a T/S jutsu that surpasses amaterasu...
IMO, the use of hashirama's chakra must of been the reason for shisui awakening kotoamatsukami as opposed to the average tsukuyomi... this is aslo validated by the fact hashirama's chakra is required for Koto's proper use as well...

However, kakashi hatake was able to train his chakra and awaken a MS t/s barrier jutsu called kamui... and he does not have hashirama chakra... But with kamui being a mere time space barrier ninjutsu unlike tobi's time space jutsu that acts as a whirlpool in space that can draw anything in as well as spit it back out...
IMO, kakashi will end being directly related to the younger son of RS's through either the senju or uzumaki... which is why he could awaken a jutsu that surpasses amaterasu, but not quite as effective as tobi's...

That is debatable. After the disappearance of Shisui's body, and to mention his own admittance of Danzo taking his eye, Itachi had more than enough reason to be wary of Danzo. If Ao could identify Shisui's chakra in Danzo's arm with the Byakugan, then Itachi could well have identified the chakra source of Hashirama and Shisui in Danzo's arm. He had the Uchiha eyes and the Senju chakras - the perfect combination.

With all that Itachi knows about Konoha, uncovering the truth about Danzo's misdeeds is rather feasible for Itachi, if he hadn't know it beforehand already.

The SG cannot deduce chakra to the amount of detail the BG can... itachi even using his SG or MS could not of seen shisui's special chakra in danzou's arm, or hashirama's chakra either... Itachi would not even know what hashirama's chakra looked like unless shisui had the same chakra and itachi saw his, using it as an example...
There is just no evidence to show itachi knew anything about danzou's use of hashirama's chakra, ten SG's ect... only his use of shisui's eye because shisui told him he took it...

If Hashirama's chakra is needed to awaken special Sharingan abilities, then would the converse be applicable as well? Uchiha DNA to augment Senju abilities? No such mention of this has been made so its a bit of a moot point. I strongly believe that Hashirama's chakra was used to augment the frequency of the jutsu and maybe its potency on par with the original, however, simply due to the lack of the original Uchiha body, which is the originator of the jutsu.

No, the SG has no way to augment the body because it is a doujutsu... only a powerful body that produces a powerful chakra can augment a doujutsu because the doujutsu is used by the very same chakra produced by the body... It seems physical energy and life force energy breed spiritual and mental energy... which is why the SG's power (YIN nature chakra) becomes even more powerful...

Again, itachi said himself that ONLY hashirama's chakra could power Kotoamatsukami regularly, as opposed to any other including uchiha's chakra, that can only once a decade... WIth this in mind, how could shisui as a mere uchiha with basic uchiha chakra ever possibly awaken much less use his own genjutsu more then ocne a decade meaning he could only use his own genjutsu two times if he awakened it at age 12, supposedly dying at age 22 ten years later...

Shisui is not a regular Uchiha. The regular Uchihas are the unnamed Uchihas. Also, comparing Tsukiyomi and Kotoamatsukami can't be compared on the same benchmark since they differ in application, perception and consequence.

Hashirama's chakra was used to ease the effort for others wanting to use Shisui's Kotoamatsukami. His chakra helped in evolving the Sharingan into a different Doujutsu, not augmenting the individual strength of their techniques.

itachi, sasuke, madara and Izuna are regular uchiha's with regular uchiha chakra as well which is why they awakened MS jutu's tsukuyomi and amaterasu... as opposed to shisui who was not regular because he had a special chakra powerful enough to rival hashirama's which is why its required to use his genjutsu properly as he did...

And yes hashirama did augment the SG... with the RG being the final level of the SG after the EMS... then hashirama's chakra has to augment the SG's power to reacha whole other level. This same concept is used for shisui... as his Kotoamatsukami is tsukuyomi on a whole other level, with a four tomoe version of itachi's MS for a design...

He was an Uchiha famed for his prowess and techniques, so he obviously wasn't a regular/basic/generic Uchiha.
I've already explained my reasons above. Deliberate on them a bit before responding.

Obviously shisui was not a basic uchiha... However, I believe your idea of a basic uchiha is a bit off... a basic uchiha are those who have no other bloodlines of the sage... thus awaken the basic MS jutsu amaterasu, tsukuyomi and maybe even sasanoo...
think about it... If hashirama's chakra can increase the power of the EMS thus becoming the RG... then the use of hashirama's chakra must be capable of increasing the power of a basic SG to a whole other level I call a MS+... which is a MS beyond that of the basic MS... just as the RG is a MS beyond that of the EMS, as its final level...

SHisui had a four tomoe MS version of itachi's MS... the basic MS are three tomoe in design so its likely the way to measure its level... thus why a EMS is the combination of two three tomoe MSs that then become a six tomoe MS...

I understand what you are saying, but I think you missed allot of my points and should deliberate on them...

Comes in to check new post. Spots giant fucking wall of text from KYF. Leaves the page.

That's the reaction that most of us should have.

Yep, every week there is a debate over some small detail and it takes up 60% of a thread discussion. I see a long post with a bunch of quotes and just leave.

lol, you know what would be hysterical.

If Tobi's S/T jutsu had nothing to do with Sharingan, and the guy was just there for show so people thought he was an Uchiha. Man, that would put a kink in everybody's theory.

Kyf I kinda agree with Jericho. I think shisui could use the kotoama jutsu more often that once every ten yrs, it probably took a toll on him but I think shisui was extra ordinary uchiha that didn't get the chance to take his sharingan to its max. He has to be strong if he was itachis mentor (iirc).

I think that the jutsu is so powerful that you have to have powerful chakra to use the tech. The only person known to have chakra that strong that all of the old heads of Konoha knew was the first hokoge. That's y oro experimented with it soo much. That's y Danzo needed it to do what he did..

We all kno that if your using someone's sharingan and ur not a uchiha it has a tremendous effect on the body. Kakashi damn near dies from exhaustion using his... If he had naruto or the firsts chakra it wouldn't be that bad... U see? I think kotoama is so strong that even itach who isn't known for being a chakra tank wasn't able to use it like that and they eyes themselves has a cool down time of ten yrs..I mean how old was shisui wen he died? When did he first discover kotoama? 10? 12? Then again at 20 something??

I think that the jutsu is so powerful that you have to have powerful chakra to use the tech. The only person known to have chakra that strong that all of the old heads of Konoha knew was the first hokoge. That's y oro experimented with it soo much. That's y Danzo needed it to do what he did..

And I think all kyf is saying is dat since his strong chakra can be compared to hashirama then there may be the possibilty that he possessed the same chakra as hashirama.

This has no relevance to my argument. Thats an argument of belief based on nothing but the plagiarism of much earlier belief that the Egyptians already had, that was also based on nothing other then astrology and imagination itself... Nothing compared to an argument about reasoning of a genjutsu requiring something "hashirama's chakra" for proper use must also be whats required for the very awakening, creation of the genjutsu in the first place.Oh the irony, it's so delicious!


But since you're condemning Hovindian creationism, what's your stance on biological diversity? I'd be pleased if you talked about it more than "I'm pro-evolution". It'd be refreshing to have a clever discussion with you on something that isn't goddamn Naruto. I'm sure that you can come up with interesting arguments...

:No Other chakra, but hashirama's can use shisui's eye but once a decade...

:SHisui's chakra has already been mistaken for hashirama's chakra.. after the use of his genjutsu because danzou was using it, with hashirama's chakra too... just as itachi said it has to be...

Conclusion: For some reason or another, shisui had hashirama's chakra...... and suddenly I'm not so sure anymore.

what's your stance on biological diversity?
There's a stance to be had on biodiversity?

Kishimoto interview.

Trans of the five questions, some of them are slightly paraphrased because I wasn't sure exactly what certain parts meant:

Q1: The legendary shinobi is now immortal! Does Uchiha Madara have any weak point?
All strong people have some kind of weak point, but Madara does not. How will the fight from here on out go!? Please stay excited and wait to find out!!

Q2: I'm curious about the connection between Madara and Tobi!
I obviously can't give too many details, but the two do know each other. What kind of relation they have will be gradually revealed in the current story!!

Q3: Will Tobi's identity be revealed soon...!?
Indeed it will. In fact, it should be within the next few weeks!! Everyone, please wait and keep predicting until then!!

Q4: How will Naruto and Sasuke's story proceed now?
I think that they will meet up once again during this war. Please look forward to seeing what will happen then!

Q5: Now that we've entered the climax of the Great Shinobi World War arc, please tell us what some upcoming highlights will be!
Everything from here on out will be a highlight!! Everything's just going to get more and more exciting!! Everyone's favorite characters will gather together to play a big part!! Please continue enjoying Naruto now that the Great Shinobi World War is in its climax!

Tobi & Madara know each other. Pretty sure I've been saying that for awhile now.

So Madara has no weakness hey ?

Aizen is about to get a friend. Who else got spirit bomb vibes from the "Everyone will get together and play a big part" comment ?

So Madara has no weakness hey ?

Aizen is about to get a friend. Who else got spirit bomb vibes from the "Everyone will get together and play a big part" comment ?
I just thought they'd act like cheerleaders but spirit bomb is a viable option.

Wow. That interview. Kishi must be on uppers.

There's a stance to be had on biodiversity?

Yes, but of course anybody in their right mind knows what stance to pick. I only asked because saying "I'm pro-evolution" is fine and dandy, but asking to elaborate on it is simply asking if he knows what evolution really is.



@ interview: Kishimoto, answering questions with non-answers. A fine politician in the making.

Yes, but of course anybody in their right mind knows what stance to pick. I only asked because saying "I'm pro-evolution" is fine and dandy, but asking to elaborate on it is simply asking if he knows what evolution really is.
Biodiversity in a simplistic term refers to the variety of life on the planet. What I was asking is that how can a stance be taken on this? Everyone from your common atheist, creationist, & fanatical religious zealot would have to acknowledge the differences between various organisms around the world no? I mean are there really people out there who deny this?

Biodiversity in a simplistic term refers to the variety of life on the planet. What I was asking is that how can a stance be taken on this? Everyone from your common atheist, creationist, & fanatical religious zealot would have to acknowledge the differences between various organisms around the world no? I mean are there really people out there who deny this?

In those terms, nobody denies biodiversity, but why is there biodiversity is what has a (completely unnecessary) controversy around it and is what I'm referring to.

Well, in the scientific community, the only controversy going around is the evolutionary chain of turtles and even that is about one or two traits.

In those terms, nobody denies biodiversity, but why is there biodiversity is what has a (completely unnecessary) controversy around it and is what I'm referring to.

Well, in the scientific community, the only controversy going around is the evolutionary chain of turtles and even that is about one or two traits.
Well it really boils down to the differences in ecosystems organisms inhabit. When an organism's natural ecosystem changes the organism's genetics need to adapt to the change or they'll eventually end up dying out. Such changes in the ecosystem can be do to a number of things such as climate change, an introduction of a foreign species, or even migration. These changes made to adapt to their new surroundings cause variants or sub-species to be created. If these new species are able to thrive in their new habitat their numbers would multiply over time which in & of itself would have an impact on their current ecosystem. This in many cases causes even more species migration to transpire do to a necessity for resources(food) that may no longer be available do to the over population of a particular area. These organisms which migrated to new ecosystems would then adept their genetics to deal with their new surroundings creating even more biodiversity around the globe.

Yes I know there are many other different examples & reasons that cause biodiversity however I really don't feel like writing an essay on the issue.

Good Tobi's identity will be revealed within next few weeks...

Biodiversity in a simplistic term refers to the variety of life on the planet. What I was asking is that how can a stance be taken on this? Everyone from your common atheist, creationist, & fanatical religious zealot would have to acknowledge the differences between various organisms around the world no? I mean are there really people out there who deny this?

Well, I could hold the stance that we have too much biodiversity and humankind would be better off with fewer species competing with them for space. Or think that the current practice of terraforming is wrong as it decreases biodiversity which is important to a healthy planet.

So, yeah, you can have stances on biodiversity. Just not whether it is right or wrong. But then, people who put it in evolution terms or want to argue right and wrong there are equally off topic because evidence supports evolution pretty thoroughly, so saying it doesn't exist is dumb.

So... you're both right. Or both wrong.

Of course Madara and Tobi know each other. Madara talked in a chapter aswell about the moon's eye plan.

Of course Madara and Tobi know each other. Madara talked in a chapter aswell about the moon's eye plan.


Not only that but when Kabuto was speaking through Muu he spoke of assisting HIM. Madara seemed to acknowledge / understand without question who that was.

Random thought

If my memory serves me didn't Danzo say the last he saw of Madara was during the Massacre. Was that Madara or Tobi? Maybe I missed the explanation?

Well, I could hold the stance that we have too much biodiversity and humankind would be better off with fewer species competing with them for space. Or think that the current practice of terraforming is wrong as it decreases biodiversity which is important to a healthy planet.

So, yeah, you can have stances on biodiversity. Just not whether it is right or wrong. But then, people who put it in evolution terms or want to argue right and wrong there are equally off topic because evidence supports evolution pretty thoroughly, so saying it doesn't exist is dumb.

So... you're both right. Or both wrong.
This is more in line with humanities affect on the environment & how it effects life on this planet & not necessarily biodiversity in general. I was referring to biodiversity itself & not necessarily the impact we cause on it since that's an entirely different debate all together. The way num mentioned it in relation to evolution seemed like he was originally asking if KYF believes that biodiversity exist which is what prompted my original reply.

The way num mentioned it in relation to evolution seemed like he was originally asking if KYF believes that biodiversity exist which is what prompted my original reply.

Sorry for the confusion then, I thought referring to Hovindian creationism would clarify what exactly I was talking about.

No need to apologize I misunderstood what you were saying that's all.

1-3 more chapters before Tobi's identity. I'm telling you, his identity is not going to be "that" shocking. At the least, it'll provide some closure long as it's not some absurd answer.

1-3 more chapters before Tobi's identity. I'm telling you, his identity is not going to be "that" shocking. At the least, it'll provide some closure long as it's not some absurd answer.

@ bolded: I have to agree. I don't know if it's intentional but when he says:

Everyone, please wait and keep predicting until then!!


To me it sounds like "hey, keep misdirecting yourselves and maybe the reveal will shock someone!" instead of the mother of all twists.

Meh, a rasengan the size of a village would only destroy perfect Susano'os outer layer I tell you. There's going to be a magnificent anti-climax. Frieza survived it too. That would mean only one thing: ascend to super saiyan. Wait..

I hate these seemingly invincible villains, most of the time they meet a lame ass end. Madara is immortal, has unlimited chakra and some other BS. W/E Kishi has in store for him in terms of being defeated can't be good, specially when the guy can stay in his megazord indefinitely and spam mountain level slashes.

Bring Orihime from Bleach
Asks her to reject Madara's existence
????
Profit!

Still better than what I think Kishi will do to get rid of Madara.

A smart thing to do is have there be another way to end the Edo Tensei à la the mystery scroll, imo.

A smart thing to do is have there be another way to end the Edo Tensei à la the mystery scroll, imo.

That wouldn't be smart, that'd be lazy. Coming up with a scroll side plot just to undo something that could've been undone previously? But, considering Kishi, it's very probable.

Some are theorizing that Oro will put more edos on the field to fight the alliance. Either way it has a high chance of being retarded.

More edos = gay

Alliance doing anything useful against a god and Steve the intangible = makes no sense. These guys are stronger than 99% of the verse combined.

I don't see conventional methods putting Madara away at this point anymore. Madara shoots meters from space and has an impregnable defensive and cataclysmic offensive tool of destruction that spans 300 ft tall. The only possible way to make things worse is to do what Sensei Q suggests, which is to deploy a big fuckin' Rasengan that eradicates every fiber of the Edo Tensei, obstructing it from reconstructing. As annoying as everything else may appear, nothing will amount to this atrocity.

Madara shoots meters from space and has an impregnable defensive and cataclysmic offensive tool of destruction that spans 300 ft tall.

Some one scaled it on another site, it came to being over a kilometer tall.

Damn, I wouldn't be shocked.

Kyf I kinda agree with Jericho. I think shisui could use the kotoama jutsu more often that once every ten yrs, it probably took a toll on him but I think shisui was extra ordinary uchiha that didn't get the chance to take his sharingan to its max. He has to be strong if he was itachis mentor (iirc).

Or shisui knew he could not reach his full potential with the SG as himself, killed off his real identity to become a "no one" identity with the use of tobi for reference because he realized what itachi did because he taught it to him, which is why itachi thought that way as shisui's sasuke to him... little brother figure...

Itachi: "as i have just said now... don't judge others by your preconceptions or by your judgement of their appearance..."http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/222/16

Itachi: "The clan, the clan, you fail to measure your own capacity.. as well as see my own which is why you lie here, beaten.... you hold onto your orginization, your clan, your name... these things limit us, limit our capacity and should be shunned... it is foolish to fear what we have yet to see and know"... http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/222/17

What itachi is explaining is very similar to tobi's ideology... except itachi chooses just to not be uchiha... realizing such a thing limits him as a shinobi... Tobi, who I believe is shisui, would of had this same ideology, but was the one to pass it on to itachi as his mentor... Tobi has admitted he chooses to be "no one"... which is no identity of a clan, organization or name... I believe the very "truth" tobi speaks of will turn out to be just as itachi's was... identities limit shinobi... they force them to be trapped within the comfines of such a limited notion, as a clan or person... having no identity frees one up to reach his/her full potential with no limits... thus identity should be shunned, thrown away to create a more perfect identity of "no identity"...

WOW, I just went way off topic... anywho... I agree with ya...

I think that the jutsu is so powerful that you have to have powerful chakra to use the tech. The only person known to have chakra that strong that all of the old heads of Konoha knew was the first hokoge. That's y oro experimented with it soo much. That's y Danzo needed it to do what he did..

We all kno that if your using someone's sharingan and ur not a uchiha it has a tremendous effect on the body. Kakashi damn near dies from exhaustion using his... If he had naruto or the firsts chakra it wouldn't be that bad... U see? I think kotoama is so strong that even itach who isn't known for being a chakra tank wasn't able to use it like that and they eyes themselves has a cool down time of ten yrs..I mean how old was shisui wen he died? When did he first discover kotoama? 10? 12? Then again at 20 something??

Exactly... except I am trying to point out the reasonable conclusion that if such a powerful chakra is needed to use the jutsu, it must take the same chakra to awaken, create the genjutsu of the MS in the first place...

I am not sure if shisui had hashirama chakra, exactly... I assume that because I think he is tobi and tobi has hashirama's chakra from cell implantation just as madara has now... hashirama's chakra is not the only super powered chakra in the narutoverse... apparently Nagato Uzumaki's chakra was so powerful it was capable of awakening the RG just as hashirama's did within edo madara... and the kyuubi's Yang chakra naruto uses reacts with hashirama;s chakra as if its the same....

Still, because hashirama had a chakra that is the combination of both senju and uzumaki abilities... was known to have a close relationship with the uzumaki and the only senju in history to be so powerful with such a unique chakra...
I think its likely that hashirama was an uzumaki/senju hybrid... having been born with both clans bloodline traits which has not been seen since the younger son of RS inherited his fathers Yang half of power which was based on powerful Physical energy (senju power) and powerful life energy (uzumaki power). Hell, nagato could of been like hashirama, a hybrid of the two clans related to the younger son too... which is why he also could awaken the RG from what could only be assumed to of been either madara's EMS or a simple pair of SG eyes... do not know yet...

So, since I doubt shisui was an uchiha/senju/uzumaki hybrid who awakened all three of RS's direct bloodlines traits... I think shisui being a basic Uchiha, but because of the secret to the uchiha's bodies which allowed hashirama's cells to be fully integrated within him. SHisui was able to fuse with hashirama's cells as well... as an experiment of Oro's as one of the sixty kids in which yamato was known to survive... or as danzou's right hand man, danzou had Oro implant shisui with hashirama's cells in order to create a more powerful being to be used as his tool then eye power taken, then thrown away as a person... but still lives.. ahahahaaaa!

Got off topic again... ANyways, I do not think shisui had just any kind of powerful chakra like that of just senu or uzumaki.. no, if hashirama is so unique with a power of both the senju and uzumaki... and uchiha shisui's chakra is the exact same color and power to be able to use Kotoamatsukami as well as awaken it... I think its highly likely that shisui simply had hashirama's chakra, not some other powerful chakra...

And I think all kyf is saying is dat since his strong chakra can be compared to hashirama then there may be the possibilty that he possessed the same chakra as hashirama.

Pretty much, yea... agreed!

:SHisui's Kotoamatsukami can only be used properly with hashirama's chakra, not any other... it would take a decade with those... as explained by itachi himself.

:Shisui's chakra was mistaken for hashirama's in danzou's right arm and shoulder... while danzou was using hashirama's chakra to power shisui's Koto eye, as itachi said it is supposed ot be used...

:hashirama's chakra is shown to take the power of the SG to another level beyond what even an Uchiha can do with it...

:With uchiha like madara, izuna, itachi and sasuke being basic uchiha with basic uchiha chakra which awakened amaterasu, tsukuyomi and even sasanoo... but shisui awakened Kotoamatsukami which far surpasses tsukuyomi, thus a doujutsu exceeding what a basic uchiha can do which has only been shown to be done with hashirama's chakra...

Somehow, someway, shisui had (or has) Hashirama's chakra which is how he was able to awaken, create and properly use Kotoamatsukami... and could even be why shisui had such quick shushin no jutsu... (pure speculation) Imagine sasuke and itachi as uchiha's have extremely fast reflexes which is why they move so fast... (sasuke can move faster then the raikage in basic raiton armour mode, just not super mode)... but with the power of hashirama's to power their shushins and reflexes... just imagine how much faster they would have been, as uchiha shisui must have been...

Just look at naruto... by using a chakra just like hashirama's, the kyuubis yang chakra that reacts with hashirama's mokuton thus validating my statement. A power that increases anything even ninjutsu, genjutsu giving them more life, thus power... He is able to match if not surpass the Raikage super mode speed... and he is slow as piss without the yang chakra of the kyuubi... however, as an uchiha, even without hashirama's chakra, shisui should of been fast like itachi and sasuke with such quick reflexes...
Just imagine... shisui could have likely been even faster then the raikage in super mode if he really did have hashirama's chakra to power his shushin, thus his nickname "shisui of the shushin"

KYF, i agreee with most of that except about sasuke being faster than Raikage. That fight was pure plot protection. Goes back to what rock leee said, what good is sharingan if it cannot keep up with the speed of an opponent.

KYF, i agreee with most of that except about sasuke being faster than Raikage. That fight was pure plot protection. Goes back to what rock leee said, what good is sharingan if it cannot keep up with the speed of an opponent.

The Pope would convert to Islam before KYF recognizes Sasuke isn't that fast compared to the top tier in speed.

Speaking of the devil, why am I not surprised he spent an entire post stroking his theory as he pleased and didn't even bother to respond to my question? Surely such a person dedicated to theories would have an informed opinion on the origins of biodiversity.

In the Nardo verse you don't need to be fast when you have SusanoO.

KYF, i agreee with most of that except about sasuke being faster than Raikage. That fight was pure plot protection. Goes back to what rock leee said, what good is sharingan if it cannot keep up with the speed of an opponent.

I never said sasuke is faster then the raikages top speed in super mode, thus my comment "sasuke was capable of keeping up with raikage in raiton armour mode and even srupass him, avoiding an attack of his own while avoiding the raikages..."...

So sasuke>Raikage in basic raiton armour... but raikage in super mode raiton armour>Sasuke obviously...

The Pope would convert to Islam before KYF recognizes Sasuke isn't that fast compared to the top tier in speed.

Speaking of the devil, why am I not surprised he spent an entire post stroking his theory as he pleased and didn't even bother to respond to my question? Surely such a person dedicated to theories would have an informed opinion on the origins of biodiversity.

Sasuke is top tier fast so what manga are you reading???

You know the guy you believe is so damn fast because he could use the huge amount of yang chakra to increase his reflexes and power his shushin to avoid the raikages speed punch after getting a head start to make it easier to see raikages attack as well as react...
You know, naruto, the one who couldn't even get past raikage in basic raiton armour because he was too fast despite being in RSM yang chakra kyuubi mode.. seen here...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/4
and here...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/5
Naruto even recognizes raikages speed as something amazing because its able to keep up with and surpass his own even in kyuubi chakra mode...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/541/6

And you know, that same version of raikage was kept up with and even out maneuvered with a slight more speed by sasuke as shown here...
(Sasuke gets behind raikage attacking with chidori gatana, but its deflected leaving sauske to back off 10 meters to use a regular chidori... both charge at the same time, from the same distance...)http://www.mangapanda.com/93-31099-16/naruto/chapter-462.html
(Sasuke then out maneuvers raikage avoiding his elbow while landing his own attack which stops the raikage in his tracks)http://www.mangapanda.com/93-31674-1/naruto/chapter-463.html
See! sasuke out maneuvered the raikage which naruto in kyuubi chakra mode could not even do until he got a head big start...http://www.mangapanda.com/93-31674-2/naruto/chapter-463.html

Here naruto takes a head start, running in the direction of the raikages attack...(starts running in last panel)http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/10
(then continues to run even further which has to be a good distance considering naruto's speed in kyuubi chakra mode.. however, the raikage still caught naruto in an instant, showing his greater speed)http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/11
(but naruto avoided the attack using shushin which is why hes such a distance from raikage...)http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12

However, raikage is still obviously faster which is why he caught naruto in a instant despite his head start... Factually, the only reason naruto was able to avoid raikages punch is because as an object moving at a high rate of speed, watching the raikage, when the raikage moves, even though its faster then naruto, naruto perceives raikage as moving slower then he actually is, if he was stationary at rest....

Its a matter of naruto moving ahead of the raikage at 100mph, at his distance of 30 meters... and the raikage even though moving at 200MPH, is perceived as moving slower then he actually is... because naruto is already in motion at a high speed at half the speed of the raikage himself... its the only reason naruto was able to perceive the raikages movement and react in time to avoid it...

Its much different then standing still, stationary as naruto was before when competing against the raikage in speed, when he was losing... Naruto stationary as he was before could of never reacted and avoided the raikages speed punch... considering he could not even out maneuver the raikages regular speed attacks...

Anyways... sasuke is one of the top tier shinobi in speed... along with itachi, raikage, naruto, nagato himself and Killerbee in human bijuu form (the form he blizted kisame with, busting his chest open)

^ Spoken like a Pope.. With Nothing that make sense...

So... nothing on biodiversity? Okay, I just expected you to be better than to argue how a character that doesn't need speed at all somehow is the fastest hedgehog of the bunch, KYF.

Perhaps I overestimated your capability of running a conversation that doesn't include Naruto concepts.

So... nothing on biodiversity? Okay, I just expected you to be better than to argue how a character that doesn't need speed at all somehow is the fastest hedgehog of the bunch

run run as fast as you can you can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man

I never said sasuke is faster then the raikages top speed in super mode, thus my comment "sasuke was capable of keeping up with raikage in raiton armour mode and even srupass him, avoiding an attack of his own while avoiding the raikages..."...

So sasuke>Raikage in basic raiton armour... but raikage in super mode raiton armour>Sasuke obviously...



Sasuke is top tier fast so what manga are you reading???

You know the guy you believe is so damn fast because he could use the huge amount of yang chakra to increase his reflexes and power his shushin to avoid the raikages speed punch after getting a head start to make it easier to see raikages attack as well as react...
You know, naruto, the one who couldn't even get past raikage in basic raiton armour because he was too fast despite being in RSM yang chakra kyuubi mode.. seen here...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/4
and here...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/5
Naruto even recognizes raikages speed as something amazing because its able to keep up with and surpass his own even in kyuubi chakra mode...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/541/6

And you know, that same version of raikage was kept up with and even out maneuvered with a slight more speed by sasuke as shown here...
(Sasuke gets behind raikage attacking with chidori gatana, but its deflected leaving sauske to back off 10 meters to use a regular chidori... both charge at the same time, from the same distance...)http://www.mangapanda.com/93-31099-16/naruto/chapter-462.html
(Sasuke then out maneuvers raikage avoiding his elbow while landing his own attack which stops the raikage in his tracks)http://www.mangapanda.com/93-31674-1/naruto/chapter-463.html
See! sasuke out maneuvered the raikage which naruto in kyuubi chakra mode could not even do until he got a head big start...http://www.mangapanda.com/93-31674-2/naruto/chapter-463.html

Here naruto takes a head start, running in the direction of the raikages attack...(starts running in last panel)http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/10
(then continues to run even further which has to be a good distance considering naruto's speed in kyuubi chakra mode.. however, the raikage still caught naruto in an instant, showing his greater speed)http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/11
(but naruto avoided the attack using shushin which is why hes such a distance from raikage...)http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12

However, raikage is still obviously faster which is why he caught naruto in a instant despite his head start... Factually, the only reason naruto was able to avoid raikages punch is because as an object moving at a high rate of speed, watching the raikage, when the raikage moves, even though its faster then naruto, naruto perceives Raikage as moving slower then he actually is, if he was stationary at rest....

Its a matter of naruto moving ahead of the raikage at 100mph, at his distance of 30 meters... and the raikage even though moving at 200MPH, is perceived as moving slower then he actually is... because naruto is already in motion at a high speed at half the speed of the raikage himself... its the only reason naruto was able to perceive the raikages movement and react in time to avoid it...

Its much different then standing still, stationary as naruto was before when competing against the raikage in speed, when he was losing... Naruto stationary as he was before could of never reacted and avoided the raikages speed punch... considering he could not even out maneuver the raikages regular speed attacks...

Anyways... sasuke is one of the top tier shinobi in speed... along with itachi, raikage, naruto, nagato himself and Killerbee in human bijuu form (the form he blitzed Kisame with, busting his chest open)

hmm last I checked Sasuke and Naruto in matter of reflexes were the same.
Naruto when FIGHTING someone has made shadow clones,out maneuvered and even set up more clones that are using transformation jutsu to hide, in a matter of moments!

Sasuke VS. Raikage was an ACTUAL fight, Naruto was ONLY trying to pass him! The reason Naruto evaded Raikage on the last try is because RAIKAGE was trying to KILL HIM. (it became a FIGHT for that instance.)

Remember Naruto came form nowhere and saved Sakura from being stabbed while she was inches away from Sasuke, that is speed. Naruto's reflexes in taijutsu have kept up with (almost)everyone he has fought, including Sasuke.

Raikage can run fast and is powerful. Minato teleported in an instant.
Naruto is NOT SLOW as SHIT, He is not the fastest. BUT he damn sure aint the slowest. RS mode makes him MOVE as fast as Minato's reflexes.Kurama chakra makes his Shushin quick as teleportation, but it is short range, he can ONLY move where he is looking.( he just has figured THAT out yet.)

hmm last I checked Sasuke and Naruto in matter of reflexes were the same.
Naruto when FIGHTING someone has made shadow clones,out maneuvered and even set up more clones that are using transformation jutsu to hide, in a matter of moments!

Did you seriously just say sasuke and naruto's reflexes are about the same...!?!?

Sasuke's reflexes are ridiculous while naruto's are average at best... maybe not even that... sasuke has many feats of fast reflexes while naruto only has some while in kyuubi mode... at base naruto is slow...

Sasuke VS. Raikage was an ACTUAL fight, Naruto was ONLY trying to pass him! The reason Naruto evaded Raikage on the last try is because RAIKAGE was trying to KILL HIM. (it became a FIGHT for that instance.)

Again, did you just say that^^^!?!?! Naruto was trying to pulverize the raikage to get out of his way after he knew he simply could not escape because the raikage was too fast... just look...(using force, not simply trying to get by as you put it...)http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/541/8
However, the raikages too fast for naruto in raiton armour...
Again, this time he attacked raikage while he was off guard, ATTACKED not tried to escape as you put it...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/4
Again naruto fails...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/5
Then fails again, this time even though he had KB's assistance...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/7

Overwhelming evidence that naruto was trying to defeat the raikage in order to get by, not simply trying to escape... yet the raikage is clearly the faster shinobi...

Remember Naruto came form nowhere and saved Sakura from being stabbed while she was inches away from Sasuke, that is speed. Naruto's reflexes in taijutsu have kept up with (almost)everyone he has fought, including Sasuke.

What manga are you reading... Naruto didn't have a speed feat by grabbing sakura before sasuke stabbed her because he was not any known distance away... he was hiding, concealed making it was an ambush feat... use of surprise, not speed...

Naruto has in no way ever kept up with sasuke in base mode... not even with Kage bushin's assisting him... I just cannot understand which manga you are reading to say these things...

Raikage can run fast and is powerful. Minato teleported in an instant.
Naruto is NOT SLOW as SHIT, He is not the fastest. BUT he damn sure aint the slowest. RS mode makes him MOVE as fast as Minato's reflexes.Kurama chakra makes his Shushin quick as teleportation, but it is short range, he can ONLY move where he is looking.( he just has figured THAT out yet.)
[/QUOTE]

This takes the cake jericho... Naruto in RSM using shushin allows him to move as fast as minato's teleportation jutsu, the FTG...?!?!?! How do you see that exactly??? Minato's teleportation jutsu allowed him to move instantly between any distance... Naruto's RSM shushin coupled with a head start of moving full speed already ahead of the raikage in order to perceive his movements allowed him to dodge the raikages super punch... nothing more...
The raikage is still faster then naruto which he proved over and over in their many competitions against each other...

Hell, naruto's reflexes in RSM still are not as good as minato's at base because he was able to dodge a head on super punch while stationary giving him no advantages of perception.. he simply stood there and dodged the super punch which naruto did not do... he need a head start and enough distance between him and rai to avoid hi super punch...

Did you seriously just say sasuke and Naruto's reflexes are about the same...!?!?
Sasuke's reflexes are ridiculous while Naruto's are average at best... maybe not even that... sasuke has many feats of fast reflexes while Naruto only has some while in Kyuubi mode... at base Naruto is slow...


If he was slower than Sasuke he would NOT have lasted against him at VotE.
he created clones and transformed then ALL to rocks surrounding Pein, without Pein even noticing. = SPEED



Again, did you just say that^^^!?!?! Naruto was trying to pulverize the raikage to get out of his way after he knew he simply could not escape because the Raikage was too fast... just look...(using force, not simply trying to get by as you put it...)http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/541/8
However, the raikages too fast for naruto in raiton armour...
Again, this time he attacked raikage while he was off guard, ATTACKED not tried to escape as you put it...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/4
Again Naruto fails...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/5
Then fails again, this time even though he had KB's assistance...http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/543/7
Overwhelming evidence that Naruto was trying to defeat the Raikage in order to get by, not simply trying to escape... yet the Raikage is clearly the faster shinobi...

He passed his FASTEST ATTACK in the end meaning......{ Speed}


What manga are you reading... Naruto didn't have a speed feat by grabbing Sakura before sasuke stabbed her because he was not any known distance away... he was hiding, concealed making it was an ambush feat... use of surprise, not speed...

He was RUNNING he didn't WALK to save her HE didn't jump form behind and save her. Why in the world would Naruto OF ALL PEOPLE hide from Sasuke?! He ly in wait to ambush him AT ALL. he was coming up he saw what was happening he saved her, admit it. Naruto has ALWAYS come out of nowhere to save someone it's his M.O. he did it to save sasuke form the giant Snake and vs Gaara in part one, he did it stopping Kabuto's fist from hitting Tsunade. {Speed}


Naruto has in no way ever kept up with sasuke in base mode... not even with Kage bushin's assisting him... I just cannot understand which manga you are reading to say these things...


HAHA HAHAHAHA he has Always kept up with Sasuke in Base mode, Sasuke taijutsu was just better!
{Right now is hard to say because they have not faced each other since they became OP.}


This takes the cake Jericho... Naruto in RSM using shushin allows him to move as fast as Minato's teleportation jutsu, the FTG...?!?!?! How do you see that exactly??? Minato's teleportation jutsu allowed him to move instantly between any distance... Naruto's RSM shushin coupled with a head start of moving full speed already ahead of the Raikage in order to perceive his movements allowed him to dodge the Raikage's super punch... nothing more...
The Raikage is still faster then Naruto which he proved over and over in their many competitions against each other....

He had no intentions on fighting him just EVADING him. when Bee "assisted" him Raikage still tossed Bee into him. THAT IS WHY he didn't get passed him. Once he got hit by Raikage once he KNEW fighting him was a NO GO when he was gonna FIGHT him Bee stepped in, then Tsunade stepped in then Raikage tried to kill him and he EVADED the attack. {speed}


Hell, Naruto's reflexes in RSM still are not as good as Minato's at base because he was able to dodge a head on super punch while stationary giving him no advantages of perception.. he simply stood there and dodged the super punch which Naruto did not do... he need a head start and enough distance between him and Rai to avoid his super punch...

NO. Minato TELEPORTED out of the way to a kunai to evade the punch. He didn't duck,sway, bob or weave,lol. far as I have seen without FTG Minato didn't seem much different from Naruto in reflexes.

If you really wanna be technical, Naruto is FASTER then Minato. because Naruto CANNOT use FTG but gets similar results. Minato is very fast with his reflexes BUT he incorporates it with FTG. Minato FTG'd out of the way, Naruto moved out of the way.


Think about it Naruto was NOT fighting Raikage, he fought the Zetsu and Edo he met in combat. If he fought the Raikage then rasengans and rasenshurikens would have been used and Raikage would have LOST.
Minato speed plus wind element attack vs. lightning user would have canceled all of that SHIT,lol.



Okay I have made my point I am done anyone else wanna chime in? Whether you agree with ME or KYF, doesn't matter but let's vote and see who is on KYF side and who is on Jericho Uzimaki's

PS: this is just debating KYF I still think your awesome! especially with the predictions/fan fics!