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apacolypz
10-17-2012, 03:16 AM
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606

Damn well it is all starting to make sense....so Nagato was destined to use the Rinnegan and the Mazo. Madara made black zetsu with part of his will. Gedo Mazo is in fact the shell of the Juubi. The Mazo was made before the actually flower/zetsu's. Only part I am having issues with is the whole he gave his eyes away without knowing part?Lol how would Nagato not notice his eyes being taken out and new ones implanted lol?! Madara taught Obito all yin/yang, Rikidou ninjutsu and Uchiha kinjutsu. So that is how he knew so much of the Uchiha history. Obito did in fact start his masquerade following Madara's death. More interesting is the fact Spiral Zetsu is still apart of him. Obito left Kakashi alive for his own reasoning. Also Obito started using Kamui. (or at least noticed) Not a bad chapter....clears up a few things....

Edit: Only using the Mazo's source can Madara/Obito actually use the moons eye plan....so if its destroyed....they have nothing left to power the ultimate genjutsu

Also...Madara did in fact awake his eyes late in his life...near the end, so did he transplant his EMS eyes to Nagato???? Nagato awoke the Rinnegan due to his heritage? Kinda confused..

also when he says befriend Nagato, I guess that is where/when he orchestrated Ataksuki...

kael03
10-17-2012, 03:26 AM
Well, that explains where the black zetsu came from and why it has a different personality from the white half.

DRAGONBPY
10-17-2012, 03:29 AM
lol 2 of my theories are wrong. I thought uzumaki dna was required not senju. Gamabunta you win. and Gedo Mazou is not made from Hashirama cell as I thought it was. I think Gamabunta took that one as well. Oh well nice chapter

AOTKorby
10-17-2012, 03:33 AM
Obvious (insane) solution for the good guys: blow up the fucking moon.

EDIT: With that out of the way, not a bad exposition chap. At the very least it makes Obito's desire to see the Moon's Eye Plan succeed much more believable. Now the depraved evil measures which he goes to in order to achieve it, that still really doesn't make much sense. It also, at least for me, gives the idea that Madara was a person with the potential to be good who became drunk with power. When he's old and weak he sincerely seems to be a less bastard-y character than EdoMadara. Still wish we knew what the hell prompted Kakashi to go full Vlad on Rin...

EDIT 2: Holy bleeding fuck I just realized Sasuke has been a red herring this whole fucking series (or at least as long as Tobito was set in stone in Kishi's head). Madara's ambition, the hatred, the quest for power of the Uchiha was never truly passed down to Sasuke as Hashirama's Will of Fire was to Naruto. Obito is the Madara to Naruto's Hashirama, not Sasuke at all. Shit.

k-lai
10-17-2012, 03:51 AM
This is stupid, so he left kakashi there without bothering to find out why he killed rin and the only excuse is he doesn't care if he lives or dies? Wtf

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 03:54 AM
Obvious (insane) solution for the good guys: blow up the fucking moon.

EDIT: With that out of the way, not a bad exposition chap. At the very least it makes Obito's desire to see the Moon's Eye Plan succeed much more believable. Now the depraved evil measures which he goes to in order to achieve it, that still really doesn't make much sense. It also, at least for me, gives the idea that Madara was a person with the potential to be good who became drunk with power. When he's old and weak he sincerely seems to be a less bastard-y character than EdoMadara. Still wish we knew what the hell prompted Kakashi to go full Vlad on Rin...

EDIT 2: Holy bleeding fuck I just realized Sasuke has been a red herring this whole fucking series (or at least as long as Tobito was set in stone in Kishi's head). Madara's ambition, the hatred, the quest for power of the Uchiha was never truly passed down to Sasuke as Hashirama's Will of Fire was to Naruto. Obito is the Madara to Naruto's Hashirama, not Sasuke at all. Shit.


Damn dude just thinking the same thing lol

kluang
10-17-2012, 04:37 AM
Nagato's Rinne Tensei was for Rin?

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 04:39 AM
Nagato's Rinne Tensei was for Rin?

possible but without knowing the time frame of which one can be restored...not sure....it does seem as if....Tobi wanted to use RT for himself....he also seemed to purposely delay the resurrection of Madara. Called Kabuto a mad man for wanting to bring out Edo Madara....so at this point his objective is slightly blurry..

kael03
10-17-2012, 04:41 AM
Nagato's Rinne Tensei was for Rin?

It was for Madara. Obito was going to use the blank slate of the infinite tsukuyomi to "resurrect" Rin.

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 05:10 AM
It was for Madara. Obito was going to use the blank slate of the infinite tsukuyomi to "resurrect" Rin.

So he aims to use I.T. to create canvas to resurrect the dead Rin. Changing the fate of what Kakashi did in this reality and turning it into his dream world. Odd
The plan was for R.T. to be used for Madara all along...but for some reason I feel Obito's impression of Madara returning and ruling...to not be a good thing...idk he kinda hesitated so many times.....I still believe he second guessed this dream world.. He has had ample time to bring Madara back the way it was planned...before he even sent Pain to Konoah.. He could of abducted Naruto when he was staring at his ass sleep...just too many points where they could of already concluded this..but here we are..

Wolverine
10-17-2012, 05:16 AM
I'm still finding it hard to wrap my head around the fact that all of this happened over a girl...

P.S. There goes our clarification for the suspicious mystery surrounding Rin's association/connection with the Mist.

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 05:18 AM
I'm still finding it hard to wrap my head around the fact that all of this happened over a girl...

P.S. There goes our clarification for the suspicious mystery surrounding Rin's association/connection with the Mist.

Damn I forgot all about that.....yeah out the window...he followed through with a lot but forgot the one thing that apparently could of led to why Kakashi did what he did....maybe next chapter he will go back to clear that up and then go back to the introduction of Nagato and Ataksuki lol

Wolverine
10-17-2012, 05:22 AM
Damn I forgot all about that.....yeah out the window...he followed through with a lot but forgot the one thing that apparently could of led to why Kakashi did what he did....maybe next chapter he will go back to clear that up and then go back to the introduction of Nagato and Ataksuki lol

I foresee the next chapter returning to real time and that is where Kakashi might throw some light on the situation and the reasoning behind his actions, whether deliberate or accidental.

Though I'm more certain that it might be forgotten considering we have Obito's reasoning for what he did. After all, it's Obito's Flashback!

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 05:32 AM
I foresee the next chapter returning to real time and that is where Kakashi might throw some light on the situation and the reasoning behind his actions, whether deliberate or accidental.

Though I'm more certain that it might be forgotten considering we have Obito's reasoning for what he did. After all, it's Obito's Flashback!

No I don't see it going back directly, since this chapter ended with the statement the truth behind the beginnings..so I believe Kishi will actually show the progress made within the year or whatever before the bout with Minato. Kishi still has a few things to clear up...The Mist, Itachi, Massacre, Akatsuki, the transitional period between Madara's death and Tobi's birth. It would be fitting if Kishi cleared all this up and then maybe we get a chapter where Kakashi and him face off since they will be fighting one another. I agree though Kakashi will turn Obito slowly into seeing reality over desire...telling him the reasoning behind him killing Rin.

Dagoro
10-17-2012, 05:55 AM
Lame.

All I got from this chapter is that Obito wants to live in the Uchiha matrix where he can continue to chase after Rin ( probably fail ) for all time. So moon is a sealing stone and not the moon itself....I wonder if that was planned or did Kishi come down from w/e drug binge he was on and realize how retarded that shit sounded when he first said it.

Numinous
10-17-2012, 06:36 AM
Well, folks, more plot holes incoming your way!


We see Madara already a geezer just like in this flashback when he awakened the Rinnegan... despite Nagato having the Rinnegan for roughly 20 years before this flashback. Oops!
Now Nagato isn't Uzumaki, he's Senju despite the manga insisting on the former. Could be a bad translation, though.
We see the Ame orphans fine and dandy when Obito approached them. Funny, considering both Kannabi Bridge Battle and Akatsuki vs Hanzou and Danzou were closing acts of the Third Shinobi World War. It seems Yahiko is a Schroedinger's Cat wannabe.

emachina
10-17-2012, 07:04 AM
Rin. The most useless, undeveloped, unliked, and all around piss poor MacGuffin in the history of fiction folks.

Gamabunta
10-17-2012, 07:09 AM
lol 2 of my theories are wrong. I thought uzumaki dna was required not senju. Gamabunta you win. and Gedo Mazou is not made from Hashirama cell as I thought it was. I think Gamabunta took that one as well. Oh well nice chapter

Dragon i didn't win, it was already implied in the manga by kabuto.

mykewin777
10-17-2012, 08:11 AM
@Num, Madara was at least a few generations before Nagato so I don't have a huge issue with him being an old fart by the time he awakens his Rinnegan. Seeing Obito become so unbalanced really makes me advocate for child psychology (I'm a social worker) and with the techniques that Madara said he would teach Obito, I guess that was how he was able to battle Namikaze...... Overall decent chap with some cool (albeit late) exposition and back story........

mykewin777
10-17-2012, 08:16 AM
I wonder, Obito "deactivated" the level of his Sharingan to the 3-tomoe in order to touch Rin, did he share with Madara his groovy new ability or is it just assumed that Zetsu copied all information and Madara was well aware of what Obito could do? Also, Hashirama had to be an absolute beast of a ninja and I see why the SO6P saw it so important to separate the physical from the ocular....

Amuro
10-17-2012, 08:19 AM
Well I'm good. This chapter was good to me it cleared up sme questions I had. Like it or not it gave answers. To me, this also makes orochimaru look like a fucking BOSS. He too was able to pass his will on and continue to survive even after death without having to rely on the rinnigan for his resurrection. It also makes me feel like orochimaru knows a lot about what happened between obito and madara and how madara was able to survive after his death with his interest in recreating harishma. I know this by what kabuto knew about madara and his rinnigan. In my opinion, kabuto is corny. He didn't do anything spectacular to me. He just fed off of orochimaru a notes and his use of edo wasn't impressive either, regardless of the scale he used it on. To me oro was trying to get the rinnigan as well he already did his research on hashi cells and all he needed was a powerful uchiha body, which was sasuke. I understand his obsession...he was SOOO close. I think coming up were gonna learn a lot more about oro and what he knows. Good chap. Not great but good..

Numinous
10-17-2012, 08:19 AM
@Num, Madara was at least a few generations before Nagato so I don't have a huge issue with him being an old fart by the time he awakens his Rinnegan.

Except 20 years in Madara's case would be very noticeable, since he was 50~60 years old when Nagato was born and I think anyone can notice the difference between a 50~60 years-old man and a 70~80 years-old geezer. But, somehow, Rinnegan Madara and flashback Madara look the exact same, thus the plot hole.

Amuro
10-17-2012, 08:26 AM
Except 20 years in Madara's case would be very noticeable, since he was 50~60 years old when Nagato was born and I think anyone can notice the difference between a 50~60 years-old man and a 70~80 years-old geezer. But, somehow, Rinnegan Madara and flashback Madara look the exact same, thus the plot hole.

Man stop reaching. He was old as shit wen nagato was born...and he was old as fuck when he met obito. Stop looking for these things and just enjoy the manga..

mykewin777
10-17-2012, 08:29 AM
But if Madara IMO was so F'd up after the fight with Hashirama and he couldnt utilize the healing abilities of his (the 1st's) DNA until he was "old" and activated the RG then it seems plausible at least that his old ass was in bad shape (when you are sick or struggling to survive, you can appear to age dramatically or have energy drained from other aspects of your body in order to compensate for parts that need more help or tending to) i.e. cancer patients or folks with chronic illnesses, stress etc.... IMO, Madara was FUBAR'd and that why even though Obito "lost it" he was only Crazy Jr. While Madara was Crazy Sr. aka Big Crazy Eyes!!!

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 08:30 AM
Well, folks, more plot holes incoming your way!


We see Madara already a geezer just like in this flashback when he awakened the Rinnegan... despite Nagato having the Rinnegan for roughly 20 years before this flashback. Oops!
Now Nagato isn't Uzumaki, he's Senju despite the manga insisting on the former. Could be a bad translation, though.
We see the Ame orphans fine and dandy when Obito approached them. Funny, considering both Kannabi Bridge Battle and Akatsuki vs Hanzou and Danzou were closing acts of the Third Shinobi World War. It seems Yahiko is a Schroedinger's Cat wannabe.



Could it be Num that Madara gave his actual EMS eyes to Nagato knowing Uzumaki being Senju lineage could awaken the Rinnegan. As Zetsu said having both powers awakens it. Also could it be that Obito here tries to win over Akatsuki but is turned down. He could of somehow setup the alliance between Danzo and Hanzo. Being that his relationship with Danzo is about to pick up. Remember right before Tobi confronts Danzo, Danzo or Tobi says last time I saw you was the night of the Massacre... Maybe Obito sets up Nagato to give him further misery and pain. Making his reach not toward a peace but toward his own flawed vision of peace. So it is possible Kishi will follow the timeframe of Kannabi bridge and the strife between Hanzo and Nagato...

Numinous
10-17-2012, 08:30 AM
Man stop reaching. He was old as shit wen nagato was born...and he was old as fuck when he met obito. Stop looking for these things and just enjoy the manga..

Sorry, I won't shut down my brain just because you ask. Specially in this flashback, this is the do-or-die moment for Kishimoto and he's pretty much fucking it up.

Edit:
Could it be Num that Madara gave his actual EMS eyes to Nagato knowing Uzumaki being Senju lineage could awaken the Rinnegan.

That's even worse in terms of the plot hole because he had EMS before Rinnegan, so the age difference would be bigger.

At the rest, you didn't get what the plot hole is. The timeframe you mention was already spent up, Akatsuki vs Hanzou and Danzou already happened by this point and, somehow, Yahiko is alive when he should be dead. Mind you that Kakashi and Rin vs Kirigakure nins happened AFTER the war, since Kirigakure never partook in any war before the Fourth. So, if what you say happens, it doesn't somehow cover up the plot hole, it only makes it deeper.

mykewin777
10-17-2012, 08:34 AM
Did Madara already have pre-existing knowledge of the ability hax that was coupling Senju and Uchiha DNA or did he realize it when he awakened the Rinnegan and a tree started growing out of his chest???

Amuro
10-17-2012, 08:35 AM
Sorry, I won't shut down my brain just because you ask. Specially in this flashback, this is the do-or-die moment for Kishimoto and he's pretty much fucking it up.

I'm not asking you to it's cool, I'm jus sayin we all had SOOO many questions about madara and obito. This chapter gave a lot of answers and your complaining about how "old" old ass madara looked when nagato was born? He didn't look young enough for you so your screaming plot hole? Do your thing, it just looks like reaching to me but I'll let you be..

DRAGONBPY
10-17-2012, 08:40 AM
When did Madara teach Obito kinjutsu and ying-yang and give him sharingan. He presumably died right after seeing Obito off (due to disconnecting himself from juubi)

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 08:44 AM
When did Madara teach Obito kinjutsu and ying-yang and give him sharingan. He presumably died right after seeing Obito off (due to disconnecting himself from juubi)

I am believing the panel to be over time...Kishi kinda drew that funky so to me it did seem like it was overnight... but I think it was as he said he will make him into this savior...he went on to show him many things within his genjutsu so it could be possible as he did with Zetsu he could of transferred his will or maybe knowledge.

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 08:47 AM
Sorry, I won't shut down my brain just because you ask. Specially in this flashback, this is the do-or-die moment for Kishimoto and he's pretty much fucking it up.

Edit:


That's even worse in terms of the plot hole because he had EMS before Rinnegan, so the age difference would be bigger.

At the rest, you didn't get what the plot hole is. The timeframe you mention was already spent up, Akatsuki vs Hanzou and Danzou already happened by this point and, somehow, Yahiko is alive when he should be dead. Mind you that Kakashi and Rin vs Kirigakure nins happened AFTER the war, since Kirigakure never partook in any war before the Fourth. So, if what you say happens, it doesn't somehow cover up the plot hole, it only makes it deeper.

I hear ya on the wars and the bridge timeframe as I didn't look it up...but the eyes can make sense....Remember the panel shows one eye...his eye that he replaced...he could of simply gave his actual eyes...before rinnegan to Nagato and awoke his rinnegan in his sole replaced eye.

Numinous
10-17-2012, 08:49 AM
I'm not asking you to it's cool, I'm jus sayin we all had SOOO many questions about madara and obito. This chapter gave a lot of answers and your complaining about how "old" old ass madara looked when nagato was born? He didn't look young enough for you so your screaming plot hole? Do your thing, it just looks like reaching to me but I'll let you be..

Sorry, what answers? The only answer we got that wasn't already implied before is Black Zetsu's origin.

The pertinent questions weren't answered AT ALL. How did Madara know of Nagato? Why did Kirigakure want Rin for? Why didn't Obito wonder what the fuck was going on? Why Obito spared Kakashi if he was the source of his grief?

If you are honestly entertained by so little, be my guest, but don't even try to act condescending towards me.

Edit:

but the eyes can make sense....Remember the panel shows one eye...his eye that he replaced...he could of simply gave his actual eyes...before rinnegan to Nagato and awoke his rinnegan in his sole replaced eye. No. Notice what happens when people use Rinnegan: they can't turn it off. EdoMadara still has Rinnegan eyes despite not using them for quite some time and the same goes for Nagato and Obito. If that Rinnegan was indeed from the replacement eye, it would show, but it didn't.

Myth
10-17-2012, 09:03 AM
U people are hilarious its a fiction manga stop talking about plot holes lmOoo and enjoy it.
This is a mana where Kids can creatig energy shit from their hands, an you expect it to be without plot holes.

jekyl_hyde
10-17-2012, 09:05 AM
I haven't read all of the posts, but I'll be the first if no one is ready to do this.... you were right KYF. From the GM to the "apparent" strong link between the Uzumaki and Senju.

With that being said.... this pretty f'n sad and messed up. I think we're averaging 2 major shitholes a chapter. I thought Nagato was Uzumaki... not Senju.

krurk
10-17-2012, 09:09 AM
I am assuming with Madara references Senju lineage about Nagato he is saying that the Uzumaki are like the first sons of the Senju, something like that.

Two Rin theories:

1. Obvious one, Obito was in genjutsu and this never happened the way he thought.

2. Rin was Uzumaki and was going to be taken by the Mist to hold a tailed beast, and when there was no way left before Obito arrived on scene she asked Kakashi to kill her so she would not be taken by the enemy after what the Rock ninja did to her.

Numinous
10-17-2012, 09:10 AM
U people are hilarious its a fiction manga stop talking about plot holes lmOoo and enjoy it.
This is a mana where Kids can creatig energy shit from their hands, an you expect it to be without plot holes.

So, in your opinion, fiction has plot holes by its nature? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7LrViaPq7M)



I haven't read all of the posts, but I'll be the first if no one is ready to do this.... you were right KYF. From the GM to the "apparent" strong link between the Uzumaki and Senju.

With that being said.... this pretty f'n sad and messed up. I think we're averaging 2 major shitholes a chapter. I thought Nagato was Uzumaki... not Senju.

Care to expand on the first paragraph?

About Nagato being Senju, I'd hold my horses and wait for another translation/raw to confirm it. I think it'd stupid from Kishimoto to say Nagato was Uzumaki over and over again and now say he's Senju.

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 09:16 AM
Did Obito just rape Rins corpse? WTF am I reading?!?

AOTKorby
10-17-2012, 09:21 AM
Odds are we're going to find out what happened to Rin from Kakashi after this flashback is over. This is technically limited by Obito's memory, so if he never learned the reason it's not going to be in his flashback.

Madara being old as fuck on both ends of a twenty year timeframe isn't inherently plothole-ish. He'd been using the GM to extend his lifespan quite drastically as it was; it's not a far stretch to assume he was just as much of a geezer when he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato as when he met Obito given that he's shown to be using means to extend his lifespan past what it should have been. As for why he looked old way back then, it's again worth remembering that he's connected to the GM. When Nagato tried that shit he went from looking like 20 to looking about 60. I dunno. Doesn't seem bad compared to the horseshit we've seen before.

As for Yahiko not being dead, Nagato is still in "not fucking wheelchair-bound" mode. Ergo, the Hanzo incident hasn't happened yet. It also falls in line with Obito's statements when he was fighting Konan, since he said that he was the one who convinced Yahiko to form Akatsuki. The three Ame orphans are totally alone at this point, no apparent sign of an organized group of allies working with them yet. For the "war should be over by this point" statement with the Mist, we have to remember that we saw A and KB up against Minato during the Third War even though the Lightning country wasn't one of the big three warring nations. There's a definite sense that, even if they're not all-out parts of the battle, all the 5 great villages become entangled in the Great Wars, hence their significance (Leaf and Cloud had a 1 v 1 after Minato's death and that wasn't a "great war").

I'm just saying. We've seen so much worse than this.

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 09:26 AM
So wait now that Tobi is revealed to be Obito Madara's actual clone was Black Zetsu? So let me get this straight Madara's clone was captured by the Mizukage & her fodder group? Herp derp...

O yeah everything is Madara's plan. Obito can die now.

ACt
10-17-2012, 09:27 AM
So... that's it? He witnesses the target of his wallflower obsession killed by a teammate he looked up to, wanted to best and eventually honoured with his own eye, kills a whole squad of ninja, kneels down to say good bye to the dead girl... and leaves?!

No Kakashi what happened. No I'm gonna kill you. No take your goddamn eye back. Just a "Ok, Madara, I'm in." sigh.

Oh, inb4 "But Obito, that's not what happened..." Kakashi flashback midbattle.


EDIT: No, seriously, what was the decision behind the Kakashi heart punch to Rin? Just seeing Kakashi beaten and Rin killed by enemy ninja is enough to push Obito down this path. His odds with Konoha would be naturally explained that they propagate the ninja violence and death. Why did Kakashi have to be the one to kill Rin? Seems unnecessary and Obito's reaction is completely discordant with it. Who doesn't dwell on the "why" of it? (Yes, I'm aware this is potentially all manipulation by Madara since he can create a whole world and suck you into it.)

Numinous
10-17-2012, 09:30 AM
Well, AOTK, that makes (a bit more) sense, although I still have issues:


Nagato didn't look old when hooked to Gedou Mazou, but rather eerily ill
Kannabi Bridge and Akatsuki vs Hanzou were both closing acts of the Third War, so they should happen in a similar timeframe, not months upon months like the flashback is implying
Akatsuki as a force beyond the Ame Orphans happened before/in the beginning of the Third War, not after/in the end of it.

Amuro
10-17-2012, 09:32 AM
Sorry, what answers? The only answer we got that wasn't already implied before is Black Zetsu's origin.

The pertinent questions weren't answered AT ALL. How did Madara know of Nagato? Why did Kirigakure want Rin for? Why didn't Obito wonder what the fuck was going on? Why Obito spared Kakashi if he was the source of his grief?

If you are honestly entertained by so little, be my guest, but don't even try to act condescending towards me.

Edit:

No. Notice what happens when people use Rinnegan: they can't turn it off. EdoMadara still has Rinnegan eyes despite not using them for quite some time and the same goes for Nagato and Obito. If that Rinnegan was indeed from the replacement eye, it would show, but it didn't.

W.e like I said if u wanna complain about madara not looking "young" enough in a flash back ill let u be. Your pertinent questions..ill try to hlp you out. How did madara know about nagato? The color of his hair and the fact that he has multiple zetsu that can travel anywhere they want. Probably scouting around for what he's looking for. Why did kirigakure want rin? That's going to be answered by kakashi when the flash backs are over. To me that's obvious. Kakashi is going to tell obito why he killed rin. He didn't just kill her for lol's there was a reason. Obito didnt bother to ask because he didn't care, rin was dead. I got the impression that it didn't matter why to him it's the fact that she died. I don't even think he was pissed that kakashi killer her if he was he would have killed him. He just didnt want rin to die that was the promise. If he wanted kakashi dead he could have killed him then, any time in part 1 and any 1 of the many times he encountered kakashi in part 2. His reasoning will PROBABLY be explain later. That's the only unknown that in my opinion can't be deduced rite now. Just chill and wait for it..

Edit: damn ppl beat me to it...but you see evn other ppl cn see your answers coming up. Just wait for it..

krurk
10-17-2012, 09:34 AM
Rin should have been in Kabuto's secret coffin. Would have been more interesting.


Anyone think Rin will be brought back to life with the intention of explaining what happened?

AOTKorby
10-17-2012, 09:39 AM
Well, AOTK, that makes (a bit more) sense, although I still have issues:


Nagato didn't look old when hooked to Gedou Mazou, but rather eerily ill
Kannabi Bridge and Akatsuki vs Hanzou were both closing acts of the Third War, so they should happen in a similar timeframe, not months upon months like the flashback is implying
Akatsuki as a force beyond the Ame Orphans happened before/in the beginning of the Third War, not after/in the end of it.


http://www.mangapanda.com/93-452-11/naruto/chapter-447.html Not to the same extent as Madara would have to be, but he definitely doesn't look quite his age there.

Kannabi Bridge still happened roughly a year before Obito attacked Konoha, no? There has to be time accounted for in which Obito recovers from the ridiculous-that-he-survived rocks, but that still leaves time for the Hanzo incident and Rin's death to occur. Especially given Obito's out-of-fucking-nowhere "natural proficiency" with all of Madara's powers.

Didn't know that last point, I don't think you're bullshitting but could you spare a panel? Just need confirmation. If that's the case, either it's a plot hole or Obito was lying out the ass. As he has been want to do.

Numinous
10-17-2012, 09:41 AM
Amuro, I'm not gullible enough to accept pure speculation. All I want from this flashback is answers and I'm not getting them, all I see is more questions and the plot getting hurled around.

I'm truly waiting for this flashback to end to decide if this manga is worth following anymore or not and if the flashback fails at clinging positive attention from me, so I won't sit and have faith on something because you say so. It either gives the warranted answers or not, simple as that.

You may convince yourself of anything, but don't think I'll be convinced by the same fickle reasons. I'm a skeptic first and a reader only after.

Edit:
Kannabi Bridge still happened roughly a year before Obito attacked Konoha, no? There has to be time accounted for in which Obito recovers from the ridiculous-that-he-survived rocks, but that still leaves time for the Hanzo incident and Rin's death to occur. Especially given Obito's out-of-fucking-nowhere "natural proficiency" with all of Madara's powers.Possible, but it's a REALLY tight schedule that is being advocated there. We have less than an year between Kannabi Bridge and Kyuubi incident, the war was already over by some time in the latter and Obito already spent many months in Madara's hideout if the hair is to be believed.

Didn't know that last point, I don't think you're bullshitting but could you spare a panel? Just need confirmation. If that's the case, either it's a plot hole or Obito was lying out the ass. As he has been want to do. If Obito was lying around Konan, it's possible it's one more lie to count. But, as you asked, here's a panel suggesting Akatsuki with multiple members was already a thing in the (beginning of) Third War. (http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-8/naruto/chapter-509.html)

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 09:45 AM
"No. Notice what happens when people use Rinnegan: they can't turn it off. EdoMadara still has Rinnegan eyes despite not using them for quite some time and the same goes for Nagato and Obito. If that Rinnegan was indeed from the replacement eye, it would show, but it didn't."

Actually Madara can switch his eyes from SG, EMS to RG they simply don't stay the same..because his eyes actually evolved...Obito didn't evolve his eyes he simply took Madara's old pair.... and in fact only took one to use with his SG....

Numinous
10-17-2012, 09:53 AM
Actually Madara can switch his eyes from SG, EMS to RG they simply don't stay the same..because his eyes actually evolved...Obito didn't evolve his eyes he simply took Madara's old pair.... and in fact only took one to use with his SG....

Pardon, can you provide me a panel with EdoMadara with a non-Rinnegan doujutsu after he used Rinnegan for the first time? Only then you can say he can switch around.

apacolypz
10-17-2012, 10:11 AM
Pardon, can you provide me a panel with EdoMadara with a non-Rinnegan doujutsu after he used Rinnegan for the first time? Only then you can say he can switch around.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/4
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/10
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/14

Actually I didn't find him switching them after activating them...other than maybe he is deciding to use the Rinnegan continuously... He is using all the dojutsu's in one eye set. Obito is unable to do that due to him not naturally having that evolution take place..so he has to use the pair of SG+RG. Nagato never had another dojutsu so he wouldn't be capable of switching around. so right now you're correct until proved otherwise..

MrAdam
10-17-2012, 10:15 AM
Lets say Obito resurrects Rin. Then What? Hes like 30 years old, she would be like 12-13. He is adult, he wants sex, Rin is still child.

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 10:17 AM
So Hashirama is like the bad STD that just won't go away.
Lets say Obito resurrects Rin. Then What? Hes like 30 years old, she would be like 12-13. He is adult, he wants sex, Rin is still child.
I wouldn't put it past him. Afterall he did just rape her corpse this chapter.

NeoKakarott023
10-17-2012, 11:36 AM
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/4
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/10
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/14

Actually I didn't find him switching them after activating them...other than maybe he is deciding to use the Rinnegan continuously... He is using all the dojutsu's in one eye set. Obito is unable to do that due to him not naturally having that evolution take place..so he has to use the pair of SG+RG. Nagato never had another dojutsu so he wouldn't be capable of switching around. so right now you're correct until proved otherwise..

Im kinda with you here, from my memory when Edo-Madara came out of the casket he had his Full Sharingan, at one point he hit MS, then Rinnengan, switched off to EMS for the Susanno clones, and Ultimate Susanoo. HE was using the Rinnengan, which makes sense because it was the last eye he unlocked and never got to use. Remember it unlocked in the cave after he was already old. So it kinda makes sense that he was blowing through all of the eyes and jutsu's, as Itachi would say 'to test his limits and abilities'. Him using so many of Harashirmas techs make sense too, he's like a kid in the candystore of the highest know Kinjutsu's to exist. He was unbeatable to the Kages they actually stood no shot.

Stars
10-17-2012, 11:37 AM
Thought it was a good chapter! Happy to learn where black zetsu came from. And so the Gedo Mazou is the empty shell of the Juubi? Thought that was nifty.. It's not really a beast, the Juubi is humanoid looking.

I don't think Madara has any intention of following through with the Moons Eye Plan and simply wants to resurrect the Juubi and seal it in himself. Moons Eye Plan might have just been a way to manipulate Obito into being his accomplice.

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 12:24 PM
So wait during this time Obito hasn't even killed Minato yet? So Obito at the age of 13-14 is basically going to convince a young adult(Nagato) that he's a 80 year old man? Am I reading this right?

Konnaha_yellow_flash
10-17-2012, 12:32 PM
So it is the juubi's body as duhh, already said by obito on a couple occasions which is likely how madara was able to awaken the RG... SYnching to it's power with it already also cultivating the hashirama cells... it was enough to boost the EMS into the RG...

It's cannonz now Uchiha+senju=RG no more arguing...

Allot was revealed in this one chapter for the love of god... should have been called "here fuckers, this is what you wanted to known"...

Still, the attack on konaha, the most Incident... ect... when is that going to be revealed...?


EDIT: ANd what was that about the inyouton jutsu creating the PAWNS (zetsu)??? DOes that mean that the sage's Izanagi created them...

Also, what madara is intending on doing is just the inyoton jutsu Izanagi...

He can already create genjutsu with the YIN power of the SG, but cannot bring it to life... However, by gaining the power of the juubi's true power by becoming it's jink... he could use the Inyonton jutsu Izanagi to bring that genjutsu to life, making it real...

This explains why madara wants the juubi to be revived for this... not only because of it's massive power... but because of the quality of power which allows the true power of the RG which also includes the SG's power...

Also, nagato's RG was always in RG mode because it was a transplanted eye like every other SG too... it supposed to stay in RG mode if it is transplanted like that...

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 12:41 PM
It's funny because Sasuke should already have Senju DnA because of his constant fluid transfer with Karin. Don't be surprised if Sasuke magically shits out Rinnegan.

Konnaha_yellow_flash
10-17-2012, 12:43 PM
It's funny because Sasuke should already have Senju DnA because of his constant fluid transfer with Karin. Don't be surprised if Sasuke magically shits out Rinnegan.

I think kishi already has that covered... sasuke will either use SM+EMS to create a RG or just implant his eye's in naruto, an uzumaki, which is of senju lineage so it will create the RG...

AniMeFaN
10-17-2012, 01:13 PM
So wait during this time Obito hasn't even killed Minato yet? So Obito at the age of 13-14 is basically going to convince a young adult(Nagato) that he's a 80 year old man? Am I reading this right?

I dont think you are. Obito is 13-14 when he returns to the cave. We see him then with black zetsu asking about whether Nagatos eyes were Madaras, we saw Madara told him about leaving his eyes to Nagato in the genjutsu flashback part. We see later that before Madara offs himself and removes his connection to the mazo he creates black zetsu as his will to work with Obito. When he approaches Nagato time has passed from what im seeing.

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 01:17 PM
I dont think you are. Obito is 13-14 when he returns to the cave. We see him then with black zetsu asking about whether Nagatos eyes were Madaras, we saw Madara told him about leaving his eyes to Nagato in the genjutsu flashback part. We see later that before Madara offs himself and removes his connection to the mazo he creates black zetsu as his will to work with Obito. When he approaches Nagato time has passed from what im seeing.
But Obito hasn't even killed Minato yet so he's 13-14 since he was 13 when he got smashed by boulders & 14ish when he killed Minato.

So basically Obito is going to walk up to Nagato claim he's Madara & Nagato is supposed to take that at face value? I can't be the only one who finds this stupid right?

I honestly want to see one scene where Obito tries that shit & the person laughs in his face. Like with Kisame or something.

Obito: I am Uchiha Madara! (reveals face)

Kisame: LMAO Madara my ass you're like what 16 years old? If you really want to play make believe don't showoff that ugly mug of yours. You do realize that there's a giant statue of the man in the valley of the end right? I mean really now everyone who's anyone knows what Madara is supposed to look like.

Obito: Hmmm I'll take that into account next time.

AniMeFaN
10-17-2012, 01:37 PM
But Obito hasn't even killed Minato yet so he's 13-14 since he was 13 when he got smashed by boulders & 14ish when he killed Minato..

I dont know, I guess we will see. Maybe the timeline is really messed up.

Konnaha_yellow_flash
10-17-2012, 01:48 PM
Madara said he implanted hashirama's cells into his wound he gained form the fight with hashi, but nothing happened... but somehow, years and years later before he life span was almost over... his eyes became the RG...

This make sense of what he was saying and I think I know he was able to awaken the RG with limited hashirama power...

Madara's natural life span was about to be over when hashirama's power charged up his EMS into the RG... which then he transplanted them into nagato uzumaki and synced himself to the juubi's body to sustain his life beyond it's natural span...

anyways, just look at shisui's eyes... Without hashirama's power, it takes 10 years to awaken the Kotoamatsukami MS in his eyes... but with madara... he had a small amount of hashirama's cells implanted in his wound only... and just like with shisui's eyes with regular chakra... after charging up for years and years, but with the small amount of hashirama power created from the cells in his wound...
he was able to awaken the RG... it makes sense now at least...

However, to sustain it's power he would need a better source of power and he found nagato uzumaki... a member of the senju lineage with the closest power to hashirama's so he was able to maintain the eyes with his power...




EDIT: As I was thinking before... This whole "moons eye plan" is to gain control of the world and use the Sage's Inyoton no Izanagi to control and create as he sees fit...
The power of the SG already offers madara the ability to make a new reality, by creating anything and controlling anything in it, by using genjutsu. Basically a reality only limited by his own IMAGINATION...

But in order to make that alternatereality/illusion created by his imagination, into actualREALITY... He needs the power of the Senju to make the illusion world he creates with his imagination literally real...
Just as obito said with the Inyoton Izanagi...

The power of YIN is based on spiritual energy and the application of IMAGINATION in order to create shape and form out of nothing... basically the ability to use genjutsu is what YIN is described as offering...
And the power of YANG is based on life/physical energy that can BRING TO LIFE the form and shape created by the YIN power, making it real...

So obito bringing back the juubi without the full 8 and 9tails power is because even with an incomplete version, by combining it's power all together, it will recreate the juubi's chakra thus reviving the true RG power the sage once used to control and create the world...
So the massive amount of power the juubi offers is not exactly what obito wants... he just wants the quality chakra that the juubi has in order to gain the power to use the sage's Inyoton Izanagi to create a world where RIN still lives... and make it real...

minato uchiha
10-17-2012, 04:29 PM
So White Zetsu existed before the Black one. This is also means, when B..Zetsu commented on Itachi being invincible, that was Madara's Will talking. Lol, me and all fellow Itachi wankers love that type of recognition for our man.

So how did Madara know about Nagato and its not like he was the only one with Senju lineage alive at the time. Or was he? Idk

I've always wondered who the child of Hashirama and Mito was, the one whose birth almost released the kyuubi. It couldn't have being Nagato but maybe that child was his father or relation.

How did Madara know that combining Senju/Hashirama cells with his own will awaken the rinnegan? The Uchiha Tablet is probably the source of that information, directly or indirectly. I really thought the unique power that Itachi spoke off which came with Madara's Ems was Zetsu, but it seems like it was a red herring along.

Speaking of the tablet, now we know why Obito sneaked into Konoha to inspect it. He was told by Madara about how much the Ms can decipher it and he wanted to see for himself. Interestingly, both Madara and Nagato have never actually read the tablet with their rinnegan, unless they somehow infiltrated Konoha to read it. Madara was too old and dependant on GM to do so himself and the manga never mentioned Nagato going to Konoha until he destroyed it. What the fuck does the tablet really say when read with the rinnegan?

I have a lil theory. Maybe Nagato's 'parents' were in fact Zetsu clones all along and that's how Madara gave his eyes to the unsuspecting child. Say his real parents were killed and cloned and Madara ordered his androids to transplant his eyes to an infant Nagato. Its a real quick operation, as we saw when Rin transplanted Obito's eye to Kakashi and Kakashi was able to use it straight away. Lol, but Kishi fucked up by making Sasuke wait for ages because he had to recover after the eye transplant operation. But I digress.

Nagato as a child was always shown with his hair covering his eyes and wouldn't his real parents know that their child had weird looking eyes? Hence why I'm beginning to think, they were Zetsu clones and maybe even the 'Konoha shinobi' that attacked them, were part of the same diabolical scheme, to force and induce Nagato to use the rinnegan in a stressful position.

Obito was probably the one who orchestrated Hanzo's betrayal of the Akatsuki, hoping that Nagato will use his rinnegan and summon GM. I still don't know what to make of the black rods being Madara's will, why Obito and Madara wanted spare sharingan's, and why Obito wanted to sync Sasuke with GM. Lol, plus why he lied to Konan when he had no reason to do so. So yeah, more questions than answers....

ACt
10-17-2012, 04:52 PM
Wait a minute... White Zetsu is of Hashirama ... Black Zetsu is of Madara... that makes the whole Zetsu one part Senju... one part Uchiha...

O. M. G.

ZETSU IS THE REINCARNATION OF THE SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS!!!! It all makes sense now...

minato uchiha
10-17-2012, 05:09 PM
^ techincally you're right however both the White and Black are the weaker and downgraded versions of their original(s) so that's why they are NOT the Sage. Good point though, never thought of it like that

freedom07
10-17-2012, 05:39 PM
a lot of people guessed that zetsu was part madara part hashirama

especially when we got confirmation that zetsu had something to do with hashirama

its the whole ying yang thing

jericho Uzimaki
10-17-2012, 05:54 PM
Obito DID NOT KILL MINATO.

now, the time line is screwy but her goes.

third Ninja WAR:

Kannabi bridge Mission

Rin Dies

Obito goes to the Dark side

After War:

Minato is Hokage.

Minato VS. Tobito

Naruto is born

A.N.B.(After birth of Naruto), keep in mind this is a 14 year period below!

During this time the Zetsu armor is dis guarded due to Obito growing on his own. some how he kept the mask.

Madara dies passes on responsibility to Obito.

Mizukage is controlled/ Kisame meets Obito (posing as Madara)

Tobi(Good Boy) and Zetsu joins Akataski (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/14)-click-

Reveals himself as Madara to Nagato (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/18)-click-

(don't believe he was aware that his eyes wear transplants. If he knew then he would have spoke of Madara and the ACTUAL plan. Instead his plan was to have all the Bijuu to keep all the countries at bay and peaceful.)

Yahiko Dies to Save Konan, Nagato summons Gedo Mazou.

resurrects Yahiko and assembles Akataski as we know it,under Tobdara's guidance.
Akataski turns into a Terrorist Organization.

Orochimaru joins Akataski.

Itachi incident(Danzo,Meeting "Madara", and Massacre)
Orochimaru is defeated by Itachi

Orochimaru leaves Akataski
A.N.D.(after Nagato's Death):

Tobi reveals himself as Madara(to the Kages).

hints of his true intentions are mentioned, if you look back on it.

"He was supposed to use that on me",-Obito in reference to Nagato bringing the
village back to life.


reveals the true plan.

Starts war.


My Point, all things we seen in those panels were just flashes of what has happened thus far. Basically just to fill in the blank, where needed. It should be Kakashi's turn to have a flash back to explain why he killed Rin.

the fact he doesn't care whether people live or die is explained as well. He believes in this dream world. but the thing is, Madara said, "...Create a world exactly as I want it''. (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/13)-click-

Obito says, "..will be in the world we are about to create...tell me how to create a dream world" (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/11).-click-

I think ONLY one person can control the dream world. I think they were supposed to resurrect Madara right after they Met Nagato, didn't need the Bijuu to do it JUST RG. (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/16)-click-


I think that Kaskashi and Obito will give their eyes to Naruto. I don't think Sasuke will have any intentions on fighting Naruto anymore. That subplot is over. (that's what happens when you have to rush to an ending,Kishimoto!!!!)

ckraizitee
10-17-2012, 05:54 PM
Well, folks, more plot holes incoming your way!


We see Madara already a geezer just like in this flashback when he awakened the Rinnegan... despite Nagato having the Rinnegan for roughly 20 years before this flashback. Oops!
Now Nagato isn't Uzumaki, he's Senju despite the manga insisting on the former. Could be a bad translation, though.
We see the Ame orphans fine and dandy when Obito approached them. Funny, considering both Kannabi Bridge Battle and Akatsuki vs Hanzou and Danzou were closing acts of the Third Shinobi World War. It seems Yahiko is a Schroedinger's Cat wannabe.


Number 1 is not a plot hole, Madara in this chapter said he awakened the eye shortly before he was soon to die. He used the eye to unseal gedo mazo, which he used to to create the hashi flower, now instead of dying, the mazo's power kept him alive from when he gave away his eyes till he met obito.
Basically, a laptop that has its battery pulled out will stay on till disconected from the charger.
Madara "dead" but was now connected to the mazo.

Number 2 not a plot hole, read the chapter again, all he said was he is from the lineage of senju, which could mean though both clans existed at the same period, Uzumaki descended from Senju at sometime in historyand some certain Senju descendants were unique enough to be a clan of their own.

Vengeance
10-17-2012, 06:23 PM
Obito DID NOT KILL MINATO.
Obito's actions resulted in Minato's death. Meaning Obito killed Minato.

jekyl_hyde
10-17-2012, 06:36 PM
[B]
Care to expand on the first paragraph?

About Nagato being Senju, I'd hold my horses and wait for another translation/raw to confirm it. I think it'd stupid from Kishimoto to say Nagato was Uzumaki over and over again and now say he's Senju.

I've went at it with KYF about the GM not being the body of the juubi. This chapter seemed to be the final nail in that coffin. Also, myself and others have blasted him on his theories between the Uzumaki and Senju. With the crap that Kishi is trying to shove down our throats, I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi is getting his ideas from KYF now.

Tmoore
10-17-2012, 08:53 PM
What i gained that has not been mentoined was how they were to revive madara. He said they had to use blqck zetsu in tandem with rinne tensei which makes me question obitos true motives

krurk
10-17-2012, 09:37 PM
Two interesting things about Minato in the past two chapters.

1. Minato was not at the battle where Rin died, assuming this was NOT genjutsu, is it possible Minato did die before this battle and Madara had another Uchiha doing his bidding? I mean, when Minato was fighting Tobi, Tobi had no understanding of his technique it seemed, and I would assume being trained by Minato he would have explained the basic idea of how the technique worked.

2. Everyone needs to stop saying Obito killed Minato, Minato technically committed suicide, he could have survived and live on but he chose to give his life so Kushina could spend 2 chapters of a manga with her child, Obito got his ass handed to him, if anyone killed Minato it was the Kyuubi.

CrustaceaN
10-17-2012, 10:21 PM
Wait a minute... White Zetsu is of Hashirama ... Black Zetsu is of Madara... that makes the whole Zetsu one part Senju... one part Uchiha...

O. M. G.

ZETSU IS THE REINCARNATION OF THE SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS!!!! It all makes sense now...
Actually if you think about it, if Zetsu is Rikudou Sennin, then Rikudou Sennin must look like
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/sport/img/13763_michael_jackson_black_white.jpg

Uchiha = Black Michael
Senju = White Michael

Encon Uchiha
10-17-2012, 10:40 PM
Wow... So we pretty much learned everything this chapter.

I was right about Senju+ Uchiha = Rinnegan. Jus wanna point that out haha ;)

So Madara teaches Obito all about the Uchiha history and kinjutsu (Izanami, Izanagi, Susanoo, Tsukuyomi,an Amaterasu) and about his life. He always teaches him rikidoes jutsu? Im guessing thats the jutsu where you create anything out of nothing ? Not sure aboht that one.

Btw Madara said Nagato is Senju when hes an Uzumaki...soo Uzumaki basically means your also a Senju. Sasukes whole purpose in this manga is to give his eyes to Naruto So he can be a true reincarnation of SO6P. Im calling it now lol .

Tobi pushes Nagato to start Akatsuki. Yahiko becomes leader and dies . Nagato kills Hanzo. Tobi unleashes Kyubi on Konoha.Tobi gathers strong ninja to be apart of Akatsuki. So far its Nagato, Konan and Zetsu. Im sure he finds Kakuzu ,then Sasori. Then Orochimaru, then controls Mizukage and gets Kisame on his side. Then helps Itachi massacre the clan. Itachi then joins. Orochimaru leaves ,so then Deidara joins. Hidan joins last.

Is Obito's motives stupid?Doing all this for a girl? Well if my girl died like that,and there was a way that i could see her alive again..i would do it haha. I love her more than anything in the world,and im plannin on marrying her as soon as im done with college and i get a job,maybe before that.

BUT, Rin doesnt even love Obito like that an their like 14 lmao...sooo yeah its stupid. If they were lovers then i could understand his motives but his love was unrequited so the motive is stupid. Im sorry but i hope Obito isnt final villain. It better be Madara.

The Special One
10-17-2012, 11:52 PM
So basically Obito is going to walk up to Nagato claim he's Madara & Nagato is supposed to take that at face value? I can't be the only one who finds this stupid right?

It's as bad as it sounds.

I honestly want to see one scene where Obito tries that shit & the person laughs in his face. Like with Kisame or something.

Obito: I am Uchiha Madara! (reveals face)

Kisame: LMAO Madara my ass you're like what 16 years old? If you really want to play make believe don't showoff that ugly mug of yours. You do realize that there's a giant statue of the man in the valley of the end right? I mean really now everyone who's anyone knows what Madara is supposed to look like.

Obito: Hmmm I'll take that into account next time.

That's the major issue with Obito being Tobi. Though, I think it was pretty clear that Tobi and all other masked wearing characters were the same person due to deductive reasoning, Obito actually being Tobi lacks any logical sense for that focal point. This must be a joke to Kishi or something.

Obito's descent into darkness is just as melodramatic and sappy as anyone could have predicted. What the hell's up with Obito not asking Kakashi, why? I just don't quite understand that. Like seriously, did Obito really just leave Kakashi there, and insert whatever interpretations about reality that he saw fit?

You'd think he'd want to know why his best friend killed his "lover." Also, exactly what happened in that mission involving Kakashi and Rin is still rather unclear. How and why was she experimented on? These chapters brings up an scenario to convince us why something is, but the scenario is vague and left fully unexplained.

What kind of shit is that?

Just like how Nagato got Madara's eyes. "Oh, well, I stuck them on him without him noticing when he was a child," business. How the hell did that even happen? Would have liked to of seen that played out. How did Madara know Nagato was of Senju lineage?

Kishi has dropped the ball on these parts in this chapter.

NeoKakarott023
10-18-2012, 12:28 AM
Obito's actions resulted in Minato's death. Meaning Obito killed Minato.

This is his the "cycle of hate" ends. Naruto forgave Nagato for killing both of his Sensei's and decimating his birthplace, forgiving Obito will be cake.

Btw Obito is kinda like Madara, his MS was on tap, and seemingly Sasuke, and Madara are weaker, or less interested in genjutsu, opposite of Itachi, and Obito. Sasuke made a version of Itachi vs. Danzou, Obito fooling Kisame, too hard, brainiac he was far from. Nagato and crew were nomads after J.Man left, with no direction, and running from Hanzo. Santa could've walked up and hired them as elves and they would have joined him.

kael03
10-18-2012, 01:35 AM
To the people claiming they accurately predicted Senju + Uchiha = rinnegan, congrats. You predicted what everyone has known since the introduction of the sage.

AOTKorby
10-18-2012, 01:47 AM
This is his the "cycle of hate" ends. Naruto forgave Nagato for killing both of his Sensei's and decimating his birthplace, forgiving Obito will be cake.

Btw Obito is kinda like Madara, his MS was on tap, and seemingly Sasuke, and Madara are weaker, or less interested in genjutsu, opposite of Itachi, and Obito. Sasuke made a version of Itachi vs. Danzou, Obito fooling Kisame, too hard, brainiac he was far from. Nagato and crew were nomads after J.Man left, with no direction, and running from Hanzo. Santa could've walked up and hired them as elves and they would have joined him.

Honestly looking at this chapter and realizing how much more directly Obito parallels the Elder Son of the RS than Sasuke and thus contrasts Naruto, I think what is going to end up happening is that the "cycle of hatred" shit can only be broken by Sasuke. Sasuke will probably have to choose to reject the legacy of the Uchiha. Naruto effectively cannot break the cycle of hatred himself because he cannot force Sasuke to reject retribution. If he destroys Sasuke he only proves that his "peace love and other rainbow magic" philosophy doesn't hold up. IMO, with the "Child of Prophecy" shit I think the choice which will decide that fate, saving the world or dooming it, is going to be Naruto choosing whether to spare Sasuke's life (because who the fuck are we kidding, Sasuke doesn't have a prayer against the fullest power of Kurama).

Vengeance
10-18-2012, 02:07 AM
FlyBoyKhi Review. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AQY6y7mkJI&feature=g-user-u)

minato uchiha
10-18-2012, 02:07 AM
Kuruma is a pet of the Uchiha. Kuruma at full power was controlled with ease by Madara and all Ms Uchiha's have that ability. So I wouldn't say Sasuke doesn't stand a chance against Naruto.

Xethorsiph
10-18-2012, 03:20 AM
Questions I'd hoped this chapter might answer:

1.) Why did Obito go completely bat shit insane over the death of a girl who never knew his feelings for her and instead loved his rival?
2.) Why did this confrontation end with Kakashi and Obito interacting at all?
3.) Why did Kakashi kill Rin?
4.) How did Madara know what was going to happen to Rin? He seemed pretty confident that Obito would come back and join him, how'd he know?
5.) Why did Madara leave his precious rinnegan eyes in a child in the middle of a war torn country in constant strife and just hope he'd survive long enough to be manipulated into killing himself to bring Madara back?

Questions that WERE answered:
1.) Where did the black Zetsu come from?
2.) Can kishi make more plot holes.

Well....thanks I guess.

Wolverine
10-18-2012, 03:23 AM
Kuruma is a pet of the Uchiha. Kuruma at full power was controlled with ease by Madara and all Ms Uchiha's have that ability. So I wouldn't say Sasuke doesn't stand a chance against Naruto.

Not all MS users have the ability to control Kurama. And even if you talk about control, it only applies to Bijuus alone. Also, this time, Kurama and Naruto are fighting together and I doubt Sasuke can control either just like that...

Emissary of Justice
10-18-2012, 05:02 AM
It was for Madara.I have a hard time believing Obito still intended to follow that through as the years passed.

Nagato had well past matured. Obito could've had him bring back Madara if it were possible or if that was what he wanted. Instead, he was gladly continuing to let him rot and called Kabuto a mad man for bringing him back.

apacolypz
10-18-2012, 05:05 AM
I have a hard time believing Obito still intended to follow that through as the years passed.

Nagato had well past matured. Obito could've had him bring back Madara if it were possible or if that was what he wanted. Instead, he was gladly continuing to let him rot and called Kabuto a mad man for bringing him back.

Yeah....exactly almost word for word what I said..but at least you agree......too much time on his hands to be a complete failure in the end......

minato uchiha
10-18-2012, 05:10 AM
Not all MS users have the ability to control Kurama. And even if you talk about control, it only applies to Bijuus alone. Also, this time, Kurama and Naruto are fighting together and I doubt Sasuke can control either just like that...

According to Itachi, Sasuke and the Uchiha Tablet, MS Uchiha's can control the kyuubi. So what makes you think these sources are wrong? Think how easily Madara controlled the REAL Kuruma as opposed to this one, with half its power sealed away.

Also, Sasuke can easily break the new found link between Naruto and Kuruma, which at the very least, will provide him an opening.

apacolypz
10-18-2012, 05:16 AM
According to Itachi, Sasuke and the Uchiha Tablet, MS Uchiha's can control the kyuubi. So what makes you think these sources are wrong? Think how easily Madara controlled the REAL Kuruma as opposed to this one, with half its power sealed away.

Also, Sasuke can easily break the new found link between Naruto and Kuruma, which at the very least, will provide him an opening.


Not even Madara could summon Kurama once he was brought back with Edo...Naruto and Kurama are synched completely together..No genjutsu can break that connection..Not only that..If the connection could be easily broken by someone of Sasukes caliber then Madara at this moment would already have both Hachibi and Kyuubi. At this point breaking their seals, connection is anything but easy.. Naruto has an even stronger connection to his bijuu unlike that of KB. So to say Sasuke could just enter Naruto's consciousness and seal away the chakra source so Naruto couldn't tap into is wrong. Sasukes reach with Naruto is so far off.. If his ems status has really boosted his own skill we have yet to see it..

minato uchiha
10-18-2012, 06:32 AM
Not even Madara could summon Kurama once he was brought back with Edo...Naruto and Kurama are synched completely together..No genjutsu can break that connection..Not only that..If the connection could be easily broken by someone of Sasukes caliber then Madara at this moment would already have both Hachibi and Kyuubi. At this point breaking their seals, connection is anything but easy.. Naruto has an even stronger connection to his bijuu unlike that of KB. So to say Sasuke could just enter Naruto's consciousness and seal away the chakra source so Naruto couldn't tap into is wrong. Sasukes reach with Naruto is so far off.. If his ems status has really boosted his own skill we have yet to see it..

I didn't say summon the kyuubi, I said break their link. Also, Madara is only NOW facing Naruto and the Kyuubi so its yet to be seen how hard it will be for him to break their connection. Previously, he tried to summon the kyuubi when facing Naruto's clone. This is actually the first time he will be facing them.

I was too rash saying Sasuke will break their link easily however, I still believe he can, albeit, a lil harder

apacolypz
10-18-2012, 06:43 AM
I didn't say summon the kyuubi, I said break their link. Also, Madara is only NOW facing Naruto and the Kyuubi so its yet to be seen how hard it will be for him to break their connection. Previously, he tried to summon the kyuubi when facing Naruto's clone. This is actually the first time he will be facing them.

I was too rash saying Sasuke will break their link easily however, I still believe he can, albeit, a lil harder

Either way...just think about it this way..Mito stole Kurama from Madara..by sealing him within her...in the process they somehow synched to where Naruto was with his base rikudou mode. If it was easy to split apart their connection Mito would of never got ahold of Kyuubi. Kishi builds up the connection thing to only weaken it to have Madara strip Kurama from Naruto..I don't see it coming or happening.. Without these powers Naruto and KB would have zero chance and the bad guys would win.... Now only way Kishi could save it is if Naruto does in fact become the real Resurrection of the Sage of Six Paths. Then he would not need to rely on Kurama's power. But hey man we both could be wrong or right..since Kishi hasn't hinted at going this direction :)

Konnaha_yellow_flash
10-18-2012, 11:52 AM
Madara already showed that if he tries to summon the kyuubi it puts naruto on his knees in pain... so that is a matter of control an uchiha can have over naruto... but, is irrelevant now since perfect sasanoo surpasses the bijuu, and guess what kurama is... Yea...

Perfect sasanoo is sasuke's way of surpassing kurama mode naruto... control of the kyuubi and naruto with the MS is no longer necessary... despite plausible considering naruto's genjutsu weakness and kurama's slavery to the MS....

Emissary of Justice
10-18-2012, 02:07 PM
Not even Madara could summon Kurama once he was brought back with Edo...Naruto and Kurama are synched completely together..No genjutsu can break that connection..Not only that..If the connection could be easily broken by someone of Sasukes caliber then Madara at this moment would already have both Hachibi and Kyuubi.He's referencing early part II. Sasuke with the standard 3 tomoe Sharingan walked into Naruto's inner world and suppressed that chakra (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-314-7/naruto/chapter-309.html).

Either way...just think about it this way..Mito stole Kurama from Madara..by sealing him within herHashirama stole Kurama and Mito sealed him. (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-54942-5/naruto/chapter-500.html)

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 12:30 AM
He's referencing early part II. Sasuke with the standard 3 tomoe Sharingan walked into Naruto's inner world and suppressed that chakra (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-314-7/naruto/chapter-309.html).

Hashirama stole Kurama and Mito sealed him. (http://www.mangapanda.com/93-54942-5/naruto/chapter-500.html)

Um...I know what he is referring to...did I not say Sasuke entering Naruto's subconsciousness? And the matter is not that Hashi helped her...it's the fact that if it was simple to just waltz in and take..Madara would of left with his pet....

Pritha
10-19-2012, 12:54 AM
^if all tht is possible he could have done it when he was fighting hachibi right?
I guess going hand in hand with a tail beast might have some perks of its own. Remember Son Goku said that "that mask man cannot come in here" or something like that which is even with a SG, MS and RG.
So i guess naruto has a better adv over sasuke in that aspect

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 12:59 AM
^if all tht is possible he could have done it when he was fighting hachibi right?
I guess going hand in hand with a tail beast might have some perks of its own. Remember Son Goku said that "that mask man cannot come in here" or something like that which is even with a SG, MS and RG.
So i guess naruto has a better adv over sasuke in that aspect

Exactly Son Goku did say that..when your connection is so strong you can hinder Genjutsu or even Uchihas from entering a consciousness at that depth...


Also @KYF, Madara attempting to summon the Kyuubi means nothing esp when you'ere mentioning Naruto going down on his knees pain. Naruto never felt that before..it was new to him. Were all the clones shown doing that? Was Naruto in extreme pain? NO. If Madara or Uchihas are so capable of ripping the Kyuubi from their hosts then why did Obito act only when Kushina's seal was weakened? Why hasn't Obito captured or controlled the tail beast in Naruto..simply they can not.

NeoKakarott023
10-19-2012, 01:52 AM
^if all tht is possible he could have done it when he was fighting hachibi right?
I guess going hand in hand with a tail beast might have some perks of its own. Remember Son Goku said that "that mask man cannot come in here" or something like that which is even with a SG, MS and RG.
So i guess naruto has a better adv over sasuke in that aspect

I think Kyuubs, Kurama, specifically can be controlled, (prolly not fully when Naruto is sync'd) but even when Obito was trying to yank from Moms Kusina, the Bijuu had Sharingan controlled eyes until Minato did the seal shit.

Summons have been susceptible too, Sasuke did the same to Manda, but other Bijuu haven't been shown to 'bow' to Uchihia eyes, best example KB vs. Sasuke. Possibly though Sasuke could've entered Naruto's mind because of they're bonds, as well, that would be some Grant Hill, Kishi shit.

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 01:55 AM
I think Kyuubs, Kurama, specifically can be controlled, (prolly not fully when Naruto is sync'd) but even when Obito was trying to yank from Moms Kusina, the Bijuu had Sharingan controlled eyes until Minato did the seal shit.

Summons have been susceptible too, Sasuke did the same to Manda, but other Bijuu haven't been shown to 'bow' to Uchihia eyes, best example KB vs. Sasuke. Possibly though Sasuke could've entered Naruto's mind because of they're bonds, as well, that would be some Grant Hill, Kishi shit.

I mean it not that I don't agree that bijuu or Kurama can be controlled..it's that as you said when they are synced as they are now...its just not happening..Just like with KB, Naruto's is just stronger.....

Edit: Obito only struck Kushina when she was weak and the seal was weak...and even then as the flashback showed, she held him at bay. Obito only acted when he knew he could force Kyuubi from her.

kluang
10-19-2012, 03:40 AM
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/TobiUchiha111/O__Obmp.jpg

so why there's a dog and cat on madara's wall?

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 03:51 AM
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/TobiUchiha111/O__Obmp.jpg

so why there's a dog and cat on madara's wall?

Madara used to watch Nickelodeon...he is still pissed they cancelled CatDog

Human Rasengan
10-19-2012, 05:33 AM
So does this mean naruto is senju?

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 06:14 AM
So does this mean naruto is senju?

It means that Kishi has decided to make it concrete that the Uzumaki come from the Senju family tree. Since the Sage's sons became Uchiha and Senju..without Zetsu or Madara going into detail about the lineage I assume he just said Naruto/Mito and Tsuanade are Senju.

Human Rasengan
10-19-2012, 06:30 AM
It means that Kishi has decided to make it concrete that the Uzumaki come from the Senju family tree. Since the Sage's sons became Uchiha and Senju..without Zetsu or Madara going into detail about the lineage I assume he just said Naruto/Mito and Tsuanade are Senju.

Ok I was just checking.. Man I sooo want to remove the spoiler tags from my signature but I'll digress.It's kinda weird hearing someone else say it with me over a hundred chapters later. Welcome!

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 06:45 AM
Ok I was just checking.. Man I sooo want to remove the spoiler tags from my signature but I'll digress.It's kinda weird hearing someone else say it with me over a hundred chapters later. Welcome!

I got lost edit lol! I was still talking about bloodlines lol!

Human Rasengan
10-19-2012, 06:54 AM
YEP! I HEAR YA BUD honestly I don't get what the big fuss was....Shit they are all cousins and relatives if you look back at their bloodline..

Yea but I was saying it from clues of the kage system numinous even gave me flack for linking tsunades candidacy for hokage was tied to family ties to naruto. He was the one who made the screaming lady in my signature

apacolypz
10-19-2012, 07:05 AM
Yea but I was saying it from clues of the kage system numinous even gave me flack for linking tsunades candidacy for hokage was tied to family ties to naruto. He was the one who made the screaming lady in my signature

Oh ok I gotya now...man I am at work literally dying to get out of here...Brain stopped functioning some hours ago lol!

emachina
10-19-2012, 07:28 AM
So, is there anything left from P1 that Kishi hasn't fucked over? So far destiny, teamwork, character development for every character, the timeline, each generation surpassing the previous, and just within the past five chapters Obito's noble sacrifice and villains with legitimate reasons for being evil. Did I miss anything?

I know all these points have been brought up time and time again, but every new chapter I can't help but feel like the joy this manga used to have is just gone. I don't think Kishi enjoys doing this anymore.

Numinous
10-19-2012, 09:20 AM
Oh, how could I forget about HR and the fact he can't stand still for a second and think that, even if the translation is correct, it could be true only to Nagato?

Jumping into conclusions is fun!

jericho Uzimaki
10-19-2012, 11:47 AM
I just realized I called the statue being the "moon" in the Moon's Eye Plan, lol.

Yep just check out the last page of the "Just a thought" thread. I finally got one! Yaaaahhhhh ME!

I may not be completely right in my details but said it was a stone body the So6P created, that people refer to as the moon.

Okay enough self back patting....

jekyl_hyde
10-19-2012, 01:24 PM
Anyone else wishing that this is some big f'n genjutsu by a Shisui-type character on the entire Narutoverse?

Pritha
10-19-2012, 04:10 PM
^actually i did think that from the moment shisui was introduced :P

two stupid things
1.tsunade is a senju and a uzumaki. So here is the stupidest part :P
tsunade is blonde=>senju char dominates uzumaki
naruto is blonde too+we know he is a uzumaki=>some other character dominates=>minato is a senju ... yippeee (Sry folks am just bored at work)

2. Moon's Eye plan, just a food for your thoughts, what happens if you activate the moon's eye plan during day time?
so if the hachibi and kyuubi is captured during the day, they still have time to fight till night to recover the stolen artifact?

jekyl_hyde
10-19-2012, 06:19 PM
^actually i did think that from the moment shisui was introduced :P



My point is, that I'm at the point of wishing it, not thinking it. This manga has sunk to such a low level.... I mean I respect Kishi for creating this manga, what this manga has accomplished on a worldwide level.... but it just needs to end, period.

Pritha
10-19-2012, 07:20 PM
^point noted

btw i dont know where i read it but nagato knew abt moon's eye plan.
tobi says so when fighting against konan
just pointing out

Darth-Nero
10-20-2012, 12:18 AM
Obito don't care about kakashi's reasons, his not gonna ask him why he killed her.
Obitos words were literally "..Because you let Rin die" not " why you killed Rin"
and when Kakashi said "ain't you gonna blame me, nigga?" he was like "nah,is cool. i don't care about a reality that imma change soon enough"

This is what's it all about, The moment Obito saw Rin die he rejected that reality and everything else that comes with it. He even rejected his own identity and re-write it with whatever else because who he is doesn't matter in this reality.
He only sees himself as a tool capable of turning a dream into reality, A dream where all that survived is Happiness,love and fuckin' rainbows which was clearly pointed out in that chapter.

Am having mixed feelings about this whole miss, like i used to hate naruto alot but right now naruto fulls under my category of "too bad, it's actually good"

Pritha
10-20-2012, 02:29 AM
I know i had voted tobi not to be the final villain but since everyone is of the opinion that tobi will betray madara , it would be great if its other way aaraound where after the completed task (either capture of the tailed beast or completion of ten tails) tobi can betray madara . That would be great too as DN says

Amuro
10-20-2012, 04:29 PM
ok with all of the flash back aside. What do you think is going to happen to Madara? You think Obito is going to change sides and take him out? or do you think Orochimaru is going to be the one to end him? I REALLY think oro is going to tell or teach sasuke something VERY important. When you re read 593 sasuke says he wants to talk to the "man that knows everything" whos that? the sage? Whats in the scroll? suigetsu tells sasuke that he probably want oro back so he can tell him how to use the "power" in the scroll but sasuke himself can learn it if he took his time... new power up? then he talks about it being impossible to use the "shiki" seals on oros arms...whats that? Then saskue talks about meeting "them" and wanting to know everything for himself so he can know how to act...the sages? iunno I have a lot of questions...

Rasenganja
10-20-2012, 05:15 PM
Is it just me or are fight scenes extremely lackluster now? I mean i havent seen a good fight in this manga since hmmm.. I'd say Kakuzu+hidan? Ive been looking forward to alot of fights in both the manga and anime but it seems kind of like power ranger battles. What do you guys think the last quality fight was?

kluang
10-21-2012, 07:22 AM
Is it just me or are fight scenes extremely lackluster now? I mean i havent seen a good fight in this manga since hmmm.. I'd say Kakuzu+hidan? Ive been looking forward to alot of fights in both the manga and anime but it seems kind of like power ranger battles. What do you guys think the last quality fight was?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oMtTPxqJRI&feature=endscreen&NR=1

better fight scene

jekyl_hyde
10-21-2012, 10:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oMtTPxqJRI&feature=endscreen&NR=1

better fight scene

Makes me miss the old school Power Rangers.

shinobido
10-21-2012, 12:48 PM
I think the next chapter will explain Obito reason to help ending the uchiha clan...

NeoKakarott023
10-23-2012, 01:07 AM
Btw, all of this time since Madara has been Black Zetsu, he's been riding Itachi's dick since forever, and seemed 'amazed' at the Amaretsu.

I was just thinking, Madara + Obito's style with Hara is more creating, earth based. Itachi + Sasuke style destructive Armaretsu, fire based.

I will say that Madara has had the most retarded Fire Jutsu of every Uchiha, and or Fire User in the manga to this point. But something tells me the Lightineng element is going to cause some issues.

Now before everyone goes crazy, I do understand what is 'supposed' to be with MS/EMS Jutsus, Tsukiyomi, Amaretsu, Susanno (and supposedly something else). I understand why Obito hasn't it kinda requires 2 eyes, one to activate and 2 to deactivate, but Madara... makes no sense that it wasn't used vs. any of the Kages. That would'a made tons more sense that Susanno Shadow Clones time 5 per opponent.


This begs the question though, Raichu moved so fast Sasuke had to protect with Susanno AND Enton eventually, correct? I also understand this is the same Raichu that was beating the top Bijuu down like toys, with the Super Lightning shield that supposedly protects against Genjutsu, and zero know Uchiha has even be spoken of as fast as him, that got crushed, by what exactly? He gave his arm to Armeratsu, but crumbled to what? I understand Rinnengan, so what, means shit without lots of clones or extra eyes, give Madara omnipotence, fine. But make the shit make some kind of sense.

minato uchiha
10-23-2012, 04:21 AM
Btw, all of this time since Madara has been Black Zetsu, he's been riding Itachi's dick since forever, and seemed 'amazed' at the Amaretsu.

I was just thinking, Madara + Obito's style with Hara is more creating, earth based. Itachi + Sasuke style destructive Armaretsu, fire based.

I will say that Madara has had the most retarded Fire Jutsu of every Uchiha, and or Fire User in the manga to this point. But something tells me the Lightineng element is going to cause some issues.

Now before everyone goes crazy, I do understand what is 'supposed' to be with MS/EMS Jutsus, Tsukiyomi, Amaretsu, Susanno (and supposedly something else). I understand why Obito hasn't it kinda requires 2 eyes, one to activate and 2 to deactivate, but Madara... makes no sense that it wasn't used vs. any of the Kages. That would'a made tons more sense that Susanno Shadow Clones time 5 per opponent.


This begs the question though, Raichu moved so fast Sasuke had to protect with Susanno AND Enton eventually, correct? I also understand this is the same Raichu that was beating the top Bijuu down like toys, with the Super Lightning shield that supposedly protects against Genjutsu, and zero know Uchiha has even be spoken of as fast as him, that got crushed, by what exactly? He gave his arm to Armeratsu, but crumbled to what? I understand Rinnengan, so what, means shit without lots of clones or extra eyes, give Madara omnipotence, fine. But make the shit make some kind of sense.

Ay along with other shinobi's, fought the Hachbi in the SPECIAL CHAMBER and Ay was able to cut one of his horns. Lol so how can you intrepret that as Ay beating the top Bijuu like a toy?

Also, who said his shroud was suppose to protect him from genjutsu? His speed was what protected him from it, since its nigh impossible to keep up with him. Other than that, his shroud gives him no special protection against it.

About speed: true Ay is the fastest since Minato in terms of raw movement, but he doesn't shit on all Uchiha's in all aspects of speed. Example, Itachi's movements and hand signs speed is faster than Ay's non dojutsu eyes to see. Tobi imo can warp just as fast if not faster than Ay in lv2.

Madara was trolling them and gauging their abilities, knowing that he had a regen body and unlimited chakra. If this was a mortal Madara in a fight to the death with Ay, his tactics and true speed would have being vastly different than what we saw.

And lets not forget Sasuke. He easily kept up with Ay in lv1, in fact he landed the first hit when they both chatged at each other. Furthermore, when Ay went to lv2 and dodged amatersau, Sasuke's reactions were still fast enough to activate enton before Ay was able to get to him.

NeoKakarott023
10-23-2012, 10:09 AM
Ay along with other shinobi's, fought the Hachbi in the SPECIAL CHAMBER and Ay was able to cut one of his horns. Lol so how can you intrepret that as Ay beating the top Bijuu like a toy?

Also, who said his shroud was suppose to protect him from genjutsu? His speed was what protected him from it, since its nigh impossible to keep up with him. Other than that, his shroud gives him no special protection against it.

About speed: true Ay is the fastest since Minato in terms of raw movement, but he doesn't shit on all Uchiha's in all aspects of speed. Example, Itachi's movements and hand signs speed is faster than Ay's non dojutsu eyes to see. Tobi imo can warp just as fast if not faster than Ay in lv2.

Madara was trolling them and gauging their abilities, knowing that he had a regen body and unlimited chakra. If this was a mortal Madara in a fight to the death with Ay, his tactics and true speed would have being vastly different than what we saw.

And lets not forget Sasuke. He easily kept up with Ay in lv1, in fact he landed the first hit when they both chatged at each other. Furthermore, when Ay went to lv2 and dodged amatersau, Sasuke's reactions were still fast enough to activate enton before Ay was able to get to him.

Oh but that was the 'rave' when Raichu came out with the Lightening Shield, it was stated a bunch 'because of the lighnening he's impervious to genjutsu, it wouldn't work against him', anyone else remember that farce that was preached?

Additionally, speed...no.... when Sasuke and Raichu were charging each other Sasuke had the Sharingan advantage and dodged his blow, that has nothing to do with sheer speed. Sheer speed Sasuke couldn't track him, even with his Sharingan when Raichu was moving around to attack, thats why not only did Sasuke use Susannoo, additionally he had to throw Enton in because though he was impervious inside Susanno, I'm one to believe the power of the blows were so great that it made Sasuke use more charka on Susanno than his 'base skeleton protect mode' just to withstand it.

I said the Madara omnipotent thing can be the only thing, but no possible way even Madara could've kept up with Raichu on the move, additionally his power prolly meant nothing to Madara seeing the way he dispelled a Bijuu Rasengen like nothing though.

minato uchiha
10-23-2012, 11:36 AM
Oh but that was the 'rave' when Raichu came out with the Lightening Shield, it was stated a bunch 'because of the lighnening he's impervious to genjutsu, it wouldn't work against him', anyone else remember that farce that was preached?

Additionally, speed...no.... when Sasuke and Raichu were charging each other Sasuke had the Sharingan advantage and dodged his blow, that has nothing to do with sheer speed. Sheer speed Sasuke couldn't track him, even with his Sharingan when Raichu was moving around to attack, thats why not only did Sasuke use Susannoo, additionally he had to throw Enton in because though he was impervious inside Susanno, I'm one to believe the power of the blows were so great that it made Sasuke use more charka on Susanno than his 'base skeleton protect mode' just to withstand it.

I said the Madara omnipotent thing can be the only thing, but no possible way even Madara could've kept up with Raichu on the move, additionally his power prolly meant nothing to Madara seeing the way he dispelled a Bijuu Rasengen like nothing though.

Hmmm, yes and no. Sasuke kept up with him with ease in v1, even Shee remarked how surprised he was that both Juugo and Sasuke could keep up with Ay. Of course when he went v2 he couldn't but Sasuke is not the ultimate Uchiha.

The fact that Itachi moved faster than Sasuke sharingan could follow and this was a fatigued, dying and lethargic Itachi, speaks volumes to me about his true speed. In my opinion, just because Sasuke's sharingan couldn't follow Ay in v2, does not mean the same applies with Itachi. What do you think man?

NeoKakarott023
10-23-2012, 04:01 PM
Hmmm, yes and no. Sasuke kept up with him with ease in v1, even Shee remarked how surprised he was that both Juugo and Sasuke could keep up with Ay. Of course when he went v2 he couldn't but Sasuke is not the ultimate Uchiha.

The fact that Itachi moved faster than Sasuke sharingan could follow and this was a fatigued, dying and lethargic Itachi, speaks volumes to me about his true speed. In my opinion, just because Sasuke's sharingan couldn't follow Ay in v2, does not mean the same applies with Itachi. What do you think man?
Sheer speed, Raichu is second only to Naruto, and in that light id say prolly not consistently though.
That's what the whole Jinks vs. Raikage was about, Naruto speed surpassed, and KB power surpassed.
Saying Madara took their best shots but it didn't matter cause he's on a level far higher, that I can understand, but it more worked out as Raichu said fuck it I'm no punk, rather than caught by speed.