VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!] [Archive] - Page 37

ask me anything

12-10-2010, 08:14 PM

Chill out dude, didn't you read Gara vs Deidara fight? Gara blocked all his explosions including the one that would have destroyed the sand village. vs Rock Lee Gara was not yet at the kage lvl and he only used the sand from his gourd. Now Gara can use the sand from his surroundings.
And he can fly, meaning he is out of Killerbee's reach if he wants to be. Ofc Killerbee would win if he goes as close to Gara as Rock Lee did, the lightning blades can cut through his ultimate sand defense, but I am arguing that Gara would keep his distance, in short it is a case of range vs melee. And I prefer range.

There's a big difference between a blast, and a blade. I shouldn't even have to explain this, but whatever.

A blast spreads out in every direction. Every square inch of the sand is simultaneously absorbing the impact. A lightning infused sword targets a precise point in the sand, and channels all it's power through it. As such it has far more penetrating power then the blast does.

Just to drive the point home, you can take the fight between Gaara and Kimimaro. Gaara's ultimate defense came very close to being destroyed (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c217/10.html). Now if that's from just using a sharpened bone, I'm sure a lighting enhance blade would be much stronger. Gaara doesn't use that technique all the time either. It takes time to ground down the mineral in the earth, and gather them for that technique. This means if KB can deliver a sword attack on par with Gaara's Ultimate Defense, then any defense inferior to that won't work.

Now if Gaara tries to stay out of KB's range then fine, but it takes chakra to support the sand up in the air. It's a double edged sword for him to do that. On the one hand, if he has just enough sand to support him in the air, it won't be enough to stop a menacing ball blast, and he gets annihilated. On the other hand, if he does take a shitload of sand into the air with him, he has to expend a lot of chakra to keep it up there. KB can afford to wait for him to run low on chakra and come down. Gaara on the other hand can't afford to come down to the ground level. Because as soon as he does, KB goes tailed-mode and uses that insane speed and power of his attacks and takes his head off. It was shown when he and Raikage did their double lariat on the Kisame clone that their speed was about the same, as long as KB is in the tailed mode. So you see, it may seem Gaara is being smart by staying out of KB's range, but in reality KB's the one that's pushing him into a corner (so to speak). His chakra isn't infinite though, so at some point Gaara's gonna have to come down.

if its a simple battle with out hachibi gaara would when cause of his defense, killer bee would have to stay safe distance and use lighting pencil to atk gaara.

i agree with most ppl if its a biju battle hachibi will beat te shukaku cause its eight against one and bee has better control over his biju then gaara.

in terms of skill i would say gaara and bee are about even that is with out the biju's gaara did make kazekage after all and he has the skill and smarts to match.

I just got to point out, that Gaara still had his bijuu when he became hokage. They just let him keep his job after it got taken out because he's still a good shinobi without it. It didn't really take away from his skills by not having it, except for not having his automatic defenses anymore, and having less chakra, but that's not really a big deal.

I still think he's over hyped though. Besides from his siblings, former sensie, and Sasori, name a bad ass ninja from the sand village. The thing is their is none. The sand village was already the weakest village even before the war with konoha. After the war they should have been even more devastated. I mean we saw how short handed Konoha was afterwords, and they were the winners in that conflict. The fucking sand should have been on the verge of collapse.

My point with all this is simply this. The sand village is a shitty 2nd rate shinobi village. Being named the leader of that village isn't some big honor. It doesn't instantly make Gaara awesome and shit because he's Kazekage. It's basically the equivalent of being named Valedictorian of summer school, or telling somebody that out of all the idiots he's the least stupid guy.

itachikillsnaruto

12-10-2010, 08:59 PM

im a fan of gaara but i know what his capable of, i dont over hype but i agree that if killer bee and gaara fought, killer bee would win, but it wouldnt be an easy victory.

ask me anything

12-10-2010, 09:30 PM

^Cool. That's a fair statement. It wouldn't be easy by a long shot, and I'm sure Gaara would get some hits in.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying you were over hyping Gaara. I was just speaking about people in general. So I hope you don't think I was calling you out on shit or anything like that.

I do have to give Gaara credit for being patient. If their is an opening he'll wait to take advantage of it, instead of rushing in. Plus his sand does give him a bit more versatility in his attacks.

itachikillsnaruto

12-11-2010, 12:01 PM

IN my opinion gaara seems to share some of shikamaru's ability like waiting patiently in the mist of a battle to figure out the enemy's strategies or make preparations for a major atk.

ok next vs

Virgil from Devil may cry 3 vs killer bee, any thing goes.

Vengeance

12-22-2010, 02:21 PM

If Kirabi is trapped by sand coffin he'll simply bust out by using the Hachibi's chakra. Really now his lightning affinity doesn't even need to be factored into this fight. Kirabi is demoniacally fast to a point that Gaara wouldn't be able to keep track of his movements. Even if Gaara was lucky enough to trap Kirabi in sand (which he wouldn't be) it doesn't take that much force to brake free as shown with Kimimaru. Are people now trying to suggest that Kimimaru is physically stronger & or more durable than Kirabi? Stop smoking crack fools.

kael03

12-22-2010, 03:51 PM

I would call Kimimaro more durable that Killer Bee due to his kekkei genkai enabling him to increase the durability of his skeleton to diamond hardness. Other than that, I've been saying that KB would destroy Gaara (before you decide to pick an argument for the sake of arguing like you tend to do).

Vengeance

12-22-2010, 04:02 PM

I would call Kimimaro more durable that Killer Bee due to his kekkei genkai enabling him to increase the durability of his skeleton to diamond hardness.
Well you'd be wrong since Gaara was able to brake Kimi's hardest bone with sand. Kirabi's regeneration & raw force because of his chakra would make Kirabi more durable in comparison.

Other than that, I've been saying that KB would destroy Gaara (before you decide to pick an argument for the sake of arguing like you tend to do).
My comment was directed at anyone who thinks Gaara would win because well they're all stupid.

kael03

12-22-2010, 05:25 PM

Well you'd be wrong since Gaara was able to brake Kimi's hardest bone with sand.

Orly? I don't remember that. I remember Gaara breaking Lee's arm and leg. But the fight with Kimimaro wasn't like that. Kimimaro hardened his bones to steel and diamond durability, Gaara buried him in sand and Kimimaro made that bone forest to escape. He never had a bone broken by Gaara.

Kirabi's regeneration & raw force because of his chakra would make Kirabi more durable in comparison.

He's shown regeneration? When? The only jink i've seen regenerate is Naruto.

Either way, Killer Bee would decimate Gaara. His lightning affinity, the power difference between the Hachibi and the Ichibi, a combination of those, all poont to Gaara being beaten by Killer Bee.

ask me anything

12-22-2010, 05:49 PM

Vengeance

12-22-2010, 05:52 PM

Orly? I don't remember that. I remember Gaara breaking Lee's arm and leg. But the fight with Kimimaro wasn't like that. Kimimaro hardened his bones to steel and diamond durability, Gaara buried him in sand and Kimimaro made that bone forest to escape. He never had a bone broken by Gaara.
Yes really it did happen so clearly you remembered wrong.

This is the thickest bone in my body. (http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-216/12/)

Here is an image of this so called hardest bone shattering. (http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-217/02/)

He's shown regeneration? When? The only jink i've seen regenerate is Naruto.
Whenever Kirabi uses the 8 tails power to a point where a blood aura is formed the top layer of his skin is burned off just like with Naruto. (http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-413/15/)

So yes Kirabi can regenerate as seen here his face is perfectly fine. (http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-419/14/)

Either way, Killer Bee would decimate Gaara. His lightning affinity, the power difference between the Hachibi and the Ichibi, a combination of those, all poont to Gaara being beaten by Killer Bee.
Lightning affinity has little to nothing to do with this battle. I mean seriously the raw power & speed alone is enough to warrant Kirabi the win.

kael03

12-22-2010, 05:59 PM

Ok, I forgot about the drill arm thing in 2nd stage. Like I said "I don't remember" it's not that I remembered wrong, I just plain didn't remember. So you can chill on the hostility, veng. Not everything is a fight. I'll say it again: "I don't remember". I never said "I remember differently".

As for your links about Killer Bee regenerating, that wasn't a blood aura. That was simply him going 8-tailed in a dramatic fashion. If it was a blood aura he would've looked like Naruto when he went 4-tails.

Vengeance

12-22-2010, 06:05 PM

As for your links about Killer Bee regenerating, that wasn't a blood aura. That was simply him going 8-tailed in a dramatic fashion. If it was a blood aura he would've looked like Naruto when he went 4-tails.
He has the human cow mode which is his equivalent to Naruto's fox/blood aura. The point is simple though his skin is burned from his face yet it quickly regenerates when he goes back to normal. Which proves the original point about how Kirabi is capable of regeneration.

BoyThisIsAwkward

12-22-2010, 06:11 PM

He has the human cow mode which is his equivalent to Naruto's fox/blood aura. The point is simple though his skin is burned from his face yet it quickly regenerates when he goes back to normal. Which proves the original point about how Kirabi is capable of regeneration.
game. set. match

ninjalostboy95

12-22-2010, 06:20 PM

That was massive fail kael03. Jinks heal, that's manga fakts 101 yo.

kael03

12-22-2010, 07:56 PM

That was massive fail kael03. Jinks heal, that's manga fakts 101 yo.

Not necessarily or else the other jinks wouldn't have been captured/killed by akatsuki. We never saw Shukaku heal Gaara, the 2 tailed cat had plenty of time to heal the jink while she was strung up. Same goes for the other jink Kisame and Itachi caught. Had plenty of time to heal him while they were returning to base.

Vengeance

12-22-2010, 08:54 PM

Not necessarily or else the other jinks wouldn't have been captured/killed by akatsuki.
Huuu?? What does regeneration have to do with whether or not Akatsuki has the ability to capture jinks? Really now the whole premise behind it is that the Bijuu heals its host for its own self preservation or some shit. This isn't an ability limited to only the Kyuubi as seen with the Hachibi

We never saw Shukaku heal Gaara, the 2 tailed cat had plenty of time to heal the jink while she was strung up.
Just because someone could regeneration doesn't make them infallible to getting knocked out because of continuous pain caused by torture. Also we never really even saw the damn fight in the first place so WTF are you even getting at?

Same goes for the other jink Kisame and Itachi caught. Had plenty of time to heal him while they were returning to base.
Again huuuu??? You really need to stop now because you're sounding more & more like a dumbarse with each new response you make in regard to this topic. Again we never even saw the fight & FYI the jink was being carried around on Samehada.

kael03

12-22-2010, 09:12 PM

We've seen evidence of the bijuu taking over when the host is in danger or unconsciOus. Hell, shukaku fights at full power when the host is unconscious. Hence the insomnia of the host, shukaku takes over when they sleep. Don't tell me that the bijuu between 2 and 7 tails can't do the same. The hosts were in danger, they were unconscious, the bijuu were not, where were they to heal their hosts?

Vengeance

12-22-2010, 10:20 PM

Yeah more & more like a dumbarse.

The one with Kisame was drained of his chakra by Samehada obviously.

The two tails hell cat was tortured until she passed out. When she was actually shown she went into a two tailed state right away indicating that they first beat her down before tying her up so Hidan could have some fun. How is the hell cat going to protect her after its already been defeated?

You seem to be confusing regeneration with immortality or some shit. Just because something can regenerate doesn't make it totally immune to physical & mental damage. Naruto himself was knocked out by poison yet he has shown the ability to regenerate. See where I'm going with this yet or do you still want to act like a complete retard?

itachikillsnaruto

12-22-2010, 10:29 PM

Not necessarily or else the other jinks wouldn't have been captured/killed by akatsuki. We never saw Shukaku heal Gaara, the 2 tailed cat had plenty of time to heal the jink while she was strung up. Same goes for the other jink Kisame and Itachi caught. Had plenty of time to heal him while they were returning to base.

special jutsu were praobly used off panel.

itachi genjutsu on a jink

kisame absorb chakra tell ur out cold

hidan well jsut creepy stuff

ninjalostboy95

12-22-2010, 10:48 PM

Not necessarily or else the other jinks wouldn't have been captured/killed by akatsuki.

are you saying regeneration=immortality?

We never saw Shukaku heal Gaara, the 2 tailed cat had plenty of time to heal the jink while she was strung up. Same goes for the other jink Kisame and Itachi caught.

Actually Gaara did heal. Remember when Sasuke pirced his shoulder with chidori? When he went 1 tail and reverted or rather forced back, he was fine and the previous wounds were gone except for the headbutt wound Naruto gave him after.

Had plenty of time to heal him while they were returning to base.

they're K.O'd. Can't do much there.

kael03

12-22-2010, 10:56 PM

Yeah more & more like a dumbarse.

Having thoughts different from yours makes me a dumbass? How does that work exactly?

The one with Kisame was drained of his chakra by Samehada obviously.

Samehada has to be unwrapped enough for the scales to make physical contact with someone to drain their chakra. He was also put down while they were called to the meeting, and we've seen that resting restores chakra. Now, IKN's idea about him being in a genjutsu by Itachi would help for the times that he wasn't on Samehada.

The two tails hell cat was tortured until she passed out. When she was actually shown she went into a two tailed state right away indicating that they first beat her down before tying her up so Hidan could have some fun. How is the hell cat going to protect her after its already been defeated?

Simple, while Yugito was hanging and Hidan/Kakuzu was in the Akatsuki meeting, the 2 tailed could've recovered enough to start regenerating. The 2 tails doesn't have a physical body, the only way to physically affect a bijuu is to kill the host. We know that the bijuu will act if the host is unconscious and in mortal danger, and the cat didn't.

You seem to be confusing regeneration with immortality or some shit.

I'm not confusing it. I know exactly what regeneration is in the world of Naruto. It's a rapid healing that surpasses normal shinobi.

Just because something can regenerate doesn't make it totally immune to physical & mental damage.

Never said that. You assumed I was implying that. My point is that the bijuu themselves are not harmed because they are just chakra vessels sealed inside the host. They are only affected by the host dying (as has been linked with the Kyuubi and Naruto when Kabuto cut off his chakra vessels and almost killed Naruto).

Naruto himself was knocked out by poison yet he has shown the ability to regenerate.

This has been my point the entire time. The bijuu acts independently of the host, will protect the host when they are in mortal danger, that includes when they are unconcious. We've seen several jinks being knocked out with no sign of this regeneration you claim they all have.

See where I'm going with this yet or do you still want to act like a complete retard?

I see where you are going. I'm not acting like a retard (unlike you). I've admitted I was wrong before with Kimimaro. All I'm doing is presenting an argument from the other side, using the evidence you have presented for your own argument (which is flimsy at best) to support my own argument.

Here are the facts:

We've seen Naruto regenerate from grievious injuries with the Kyuubi cloak. We have NOT seen Killer Bee do the same. The entire fight with Sasuke before that page, he was in his bijuu cloak and didn't take any injuries. The peeling was a side effect of actually becoming the Hachibi.

Gaara turned into Shukaku after taking a Chidori to his shoulder, no regeneration.

Yugito had the shit kicked out of her, was strung up for some time while Hidan and Kakuzu were in the Akatsuki meeting, no regeneration.

Roshi, while draped over a sealed Samehada and dropped on the ground so Kisame and Itachi could attend the meeting, did not regenerate. Though the explanation here could be he was under a genjutsu from Itachi.

kael03

12-22-2010, 11:04 PM

are you saying regeneration=immortality?

No, I'm not saying they're the same. I know they are completely different. I'm saying that if they had the ability to regenerate they wouldn't have fallen to Akatsuki like they did (Kisame complained that Roshi used Lava release, showed no injuries. Hidan and Kakuzu just bitched)

Actually Gaara did heal. Remember when Sasuke pirced his shoulder with chidori? When he went 1 tail and reverted or rather forced back, he was fine and the previous wounds were gone except for the headbutt wound Naruto gave him after.

He never finished the initial transformation when Sasuke injured him, and the entire time he was fleeing with his siblings he was clutching his shoulder where Sasuke hit him with the Chidori. It was only when Shukaku started to take over that he was able to use his arm again, and he started transforming shortly after Sasuke attacked him in the woods.

Adrenaline is an amazing hormone. It allows people to ignore the more serious of injuries to do something they normally wouldn't do.

they're K.O'd. Can't do much there.

As pointed out by Veng, Naruto was regenerating from being poisoned while unconscious. Soooooo... just because the host is out doesn't mean the bijuu is.

Vengeance

12-24-2010, 10:56 AM

As pointed out by Veng, Naruto was regenerating from being poisoned while unconscious. Soooooo... just because the host is out doesn't mean the bijuu is.
Wow keal you really are stupid. My point about Naruto was that the Kyuubi couldn't fight off the poison even though he can regenerate. Sakura needed to give him an antidote you dumb fuck. Ignoring the rest of your post since there's no point in arguing with a moron. Just wanted to point that one thing out since you completely misunderstood the contents of my actual post.

kael03

12-24-2010, 11:57 AM

Wow keal you really are stupid. My point about Naruto was that the Kyuubi couldn't fight off the poison even though he can regenerate. Sakura needed to give him an antidote you dumb fuck. Ignoring the rest of your post since there's no point in arguing with a moron. Just wanted to point that one thing out since you completely misunderstood the contents of my actual post.

Oh? I misunderstood? How about we go back and look at the post in question to see if there was any misunderstanding.

You seem to be confusing regeneration with immortality or some shit. Just because something can regenerate doesn't make it totally immune to physical & mental damage. Naruto himself was knocked out by poison yet he has shown the ability to regenerate. See where I'm going with this yet or do you still want to act like a complete retard?

I even left the entire paragraph intact to avoid claims of editing for convenience.

Hmm.
@bold: I'm not confusing them. Never did claim they were the same.

@underlined: Agreed with. Again, never said they were immune to the damage.

@underlined&bolded: The point in question. You yourself said he was unconscious and poisoned, and regenerating. Which is my point about Roshi and Yugito. Had their beasts shown the ability to regenerate, there were plenty of opportunities to do so.

You never said anything about Sakura healing him, you only commented that Naruto was out cold and the fox was healing him from the poison. Therefore, YOU fucked up your argument. I never misunderstood anything based on the information YOU gave.

Now who's the moron?

Anyway, I'm done with this "fight". You hate it when someone proves you wrong or doesn't share your opinion and you act like a dick because of it.

ninjalostboy95

12-24-2010, 12:26 PM

He didn't say he showed the ability to regenerate from the poison, so it was more like "naruto himself was knocked out by poison but he has shown the ability to regenerate." The word "Yet" was used like that in this sentence. Let me make it simpler: "naruto himself was knocked out by poison even though he has shown the ability to regenerate." Any clearer? If not then: If you read his second sentence he stated "Just because something can regenerate doesn't make it totally immune to physical and mental damage" and that was before the sentence: "naruto himself was knocked out by poison yet he has shown the ability to regenerate." So if you put it together, the underlined sentence was the claim and the bolded sentence was the example/proof of his claim. You fucked up on that part kael.

Vengeance

12-24-2010, 12:44 PM

@bold: I'm not confusing them. Never did claim they were the same.
Why are you re-responding to an older post when I clearly already said that I'm ignoring the rest of your rant? Respond to what I said about you being a dumbarse for totally misunderstanding what I actually said.

@underlined: Agreed with. Again, never said they were immune to the damage.
Again what does this have to do with my latest post? I'm ignoring everything else that you're trying to say at this point because well you're a fucking idiot anyway.

@underlined&bolded: The point in question. You yourself said he was unconscious and poisoned, and regenerating.
I didn't say and he was regenerating while unconscious you stupid fuck.

"Naruto himself was knocked out by poison yet he has shown the ability to regenerate" is what I actually said.

Naruto being knocked out by poison is used to address the fact that Jinks can be knockout out/incapacitated even though they have Bijuu. The section of "yet he has shown the ability to regenerate" was mentioned to reinforce the point about how the Bijuu's power isn't infallible.

Which is my point about Roshi and Yugito. Had their beasts shown the ability to regenerate, there were plenty of opportunities to do so.
Again I could give two shits about your point since you're retarded anyway. My point is simple learn how to comprehend English if you're going to post on an English speaking forum.

You never said anything about Sakura healing him,
Why would I need to in the first place don't you read the fucking manga retard?

you only commented that Naruto was out cold and the fox was healing him from the poison.
Again simpleton I never said the Kyuubi was healing him from poison.

Therefore, YOU fucked up your argument.
LMAO I actually didn't fuck up my argument at all. You're just to much of a moron to actually comprehend it.

I never misunderstood anything based on the information YOU gave.
Actually you completely misunderstood a very simple statement.

Now who's the moron?
You of course as seen in your latest post.

Anyway, I'm done with this "fight".
So you acknowledge the fact that you're retarded?

You hate it when someone proves you wrong or doesn't share your opinion and you act like a dick because of it.
Actually you didn't prove me wrong. I act like a dick to people when they want to act like retards.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-25-2010, 12:44 AM

First off, Im going to go ahead and predict Gaara has the raw power to perform a Bijuu sized sand coffin which WOULD defeat KB one way or another... But, this isnt about predictions no matter how likely they are...

First thing to consider. Kbs a hand to hand fighter with ungodly power and Gaara is a long distance fighter with alot of power as well. Still, gaara has the advantage already cause gaara has distance...

Second, How stupid KB is!!!! Him and naruto are fucking retards basically. The Mice of men Ninja wjp in a real ninja world wouldnt last a day cause ninjutsu is about intelligence, not power.
And Gaara very intelligent and in charge of the entire army as its general over kakashi and shikamaru so, yea....!

The only way I see KB winning is by Gaara fleeing cause hes fighting KB on a mountain or terrain he cant use. Otherwise Gaara ends up suffocating KB in hachibi mode either by land or water (which ever one is around and more convenient IMO)

No samehada scenario:

Now while KB has super strength, speed and power. Gaara has all the tools and tactics to counter as well with distance to gauge KB, armour and ball to help block, clones to redirect attention, stealth to hide while watching the fight with his sand eye and best of all control of the terrain (unless on a mountain or giant rock)

So basically gaara would just hide and watch the fight with his sand eye so KB couldnt find him while preparing a giant sand burial for KB encase he does go bijuu mode in which case it still wont matter cause hes down too far and suffocate. I mean as leader of the army and originally kage of his village Gaara had to of known, especially by now how strong KB is and generally what hes capable of.

So KB doesnt get to be underestimated and SURPRISE gaara and bust through his sand shield and kill his ass. Nope, Gaara has to know basics enough by now to formulate a strategy to take down even KBs powerful ass.

Samehada scenario: Well the first thing to consider is would samehada even let KB use Bijuu mode effectively?? Samehadas is addicted to hachibi power and Im not sure how to trust a herion addict around the entire supply so what stops samehada from just absorbing the lionshare of hachibi power when KB calls it forth because it just loves it so much?

Samehada sounds like more of a liability in Bijuu mode of any kind cause of its love for the hachibis power. So, samehada kinda gives KB some help in base mode, but fucks in tailed modes IMO.

TheBaron

12-26-2010, 01:23 PM

I'd say that KB has a good chance of beating Gaara. Just like KYF said, KB is a close-combat fighter - which is why he can probably do the same thing as Naruto did; Beat Gaara. If the fighter is good enough at what he does, range does not matter quite as much. Remember, that Naruto beat Gaara without hax, only with a little help from Gama Bunta. KB has his Hachibi instead. And now Gaara don't have one. If KB transformed into his Hachibi, he would also become long-ranged.

Sensei-Q

12-26-2010, 01:55 PM

Ichibi vs Hachibi

Obvious winner is obvious.

ninjalostboy95

12-26-2010, 02:36 PM

TheBaron

12-26-2010, 02:40 PM

KYF don't be a retard. Gaara making a bijuu size sand coffin is like Naruto making a bijuu size rasengan. Not gonna happen. First of all a bijuu is the same size or bigger than Gamabunta. Second Gaara would a hella lot of chakra. Third of all, there's not that much fucking sand in his gourd so he'll have spend even more chakra grinding and compressing the dirt to use that much sand for his bijuu size coffin. KB would beat gaara, this isn't even debatable. He would pierce and/or counter any defense Gaara puts up and could just bijuu blast Gaara if he summons Shukaku since, you know, Gaara doesn't know how to bijuu blast or defend against(Sand isn't blocking that, if anyone says it can, I will laugh at you and call you a retard) and is asleep when Shukaku comes out, so he's not dodging thar. Even if Shukaku takes the hit, Gaara will be blasted away since he's on Shukaku's fucking head. KB wins.

Did Gaara not lose Shukaku, or did I miss something?

EDIT!
NVM - I didn't see, that for the sake of the discussion, Gaara had reatained Shukaku. Please continue :)

itachikillsnaruto

12-26-2010, 11:59 PM

Ichibi vs Hachibi

hachibi would win since its two on one. cause gaara and the shukaku have no mutual agreement. while killer bee and hachi work as a team.

Obvious winner is obvious.

KYF don't be a retard. Gaara making a bijuu size sand coffin is like Naruto making a bijuu size rasengan. Not gonna happen. First of all a bijuu is the same size or bigger than Gamabunta. Second Gaara would need a hella amount of chakra. Third of all, there's not that much fucking sand in his gourd so he'll have to spend even more chakra grinding and compressing the dirt to use the massive amount of sand for his bijuu size coffin. KB would beat gaara, this isn't even debatable. He would pierce and/or counter any defense Gaara puts up and could just bijuu blast Gaara if he summons Shukaku since, you know, Gaara doesn't know how to bijuu blast or defend against it(Sand isn't blocking that, if anyone says it can, I will laugh at you and call you a retard) and is asleep when Shukaku comes out, so he's not dodging thar. Even if Shukaku takes the hit, Gaara will be blasted away since he's on Shukaku's fucking head. KB wins.

to add to ur point shukaku cant do a huge dessert coffin cause he has no control over his biju and when he goes biju mode he puts himself to sleep so its only one mind fighting not two.

k-lai

12-27-2010, 04:31 AM

to add to ur point gaara cant do a huge dessert coffin cause he has no control over his biju and when he goes biju mode he puts himself to sleep so its only one mind fighting not two.

Fixed .

U seem to 4 get that gaara can be in semi-bijuu mode where he has some of his consciousness.

itachikillsnaruto

12-27-2010, 10:24 AM

true but he wont have a massive amount of chakra to make a huge dessert coffin. thats y its difficult for me and in that state he's just murderus intent nothing else his only thinking about killing not trying kill his opponent in one hit.

k-lai

12-27-2010, 01:35 PM

Hmmmmmmmm .

TheBaron

12-27-2010, 03:29 PM

Hmmmmmmmm .

That is not a response mate :)

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 09:37 PM

KYF don't be a retard. Gaara making a bijuu size sand coffin is like Naruto making a bijuu size rasengan. Not gonna happen. First of all a bijuu is the same size or bigger than Gamabunta. Second Gaara would need a hella amount of chakra. Third of all, there's not that much fucking sand in his gourd so he'll have to spend even more chakra grinding and compressing the dirt to use the massive amount of sand for his bijuu size coffin. KB would beat gaara, this isn't even debatable. He would pierce and/or counter any defense Gaara puts up and could just bijuu blast Gaara if he summons Shukaku since, you know, Gaara doesn't know how to bijuu blast or defend against it(Sand isn't blocking that, if anyone says it can, I will laugh at you and call you a retard) and is asleep when Shukaku comes out, so he's not dodging thar. Even if Shukaku takes the hit, Gaara will be blasted away since he's on Shukaku's fucking head. KB wins.

Dont be a fucking fanboy NLB!! Im not even adding shukaku into the equation if u read my post...

Facts are fact and KB is a freaking tard!!!! Hes all Braun no brain which is why kisame kicked his ass without even trying to kill him...

Gaara fights long range and can hide while fighting as well while KB plays "hulk smash".... Gaara waits for KB to go full hachibi then buries his ass 1 mile deep, game over cause he might not be crushed, but he will suffocate.

KBs too stupid to win, just like against kisame...

itachikillsnaruto

12-27-2010, 09:46 PM

Dont be a fucking fanboy NLB!! Im not even adding shukaku into the equation if u read my post...

Facts are fact and KB is a freaking tard!!!! Hes all Braun no brain which is why kisame kicked his ass without even trying to kill him...

Gaara fights long range and can hide while fighting as well while KB plays "hulk smash".... Gaara waits for KB to go full hachibi then buries his ass 1 mile deep, game over cause he might not be crushed, but he will suffocate.

KBs too stupid to win, just like against kisame...

dude ur forgetting the soul fact that the hachibi has a will of it own in the fight its not mindless like shukaku. bee can just let hachi take over the battle and beat shukaku.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 09:55 PM

dude ur forgetting the soul fact that the hachibi has a will of it own in the fight its not mindless like shukaku. bee can just let hachi take over the battle and beat shukaku.

Im not even adding shukaku in the fight cause he no longer has shukaku and it would just get gaara killed. Im talking gaara as he is vs KB...

Hes no mindless and blood thirsty anymore so hes just going to stand there and play indestructible against an enemy he would clearly already have info on as the sand kage and as the alliance general....

Gaara will have prior info and KBs a tard.....

ask me anything

12-27-2010, 09:56 PM

Dont be a fucking fanboy NLB!! Im not even adding shukaku into the equation if u read my post...

GTFO son. Shukaku was mention when this fight was proposed. Whether or not your taking him into consideration doesn't matter. The rest of us are.

Facts are fact and KB is a freaking tard!!!! Hes all Braun no brain which is why kisame kicked his ass without even trying to kill him...
Yeah, I'm sure Samehada had nothing to do with it now did it!!!!!!!

Seriously guy, Samehada healed any damage Kisame took, and sucked away KB's chakra. Gaara can't do either of those.

Gaara fights long range and can hide while fighting as well while KB plays "hulk smash".... Gaara waits for KB to go full hachibi then buries his ass 1 mile deep, game over cause he might not be crushed, but he will suffocate.
More like KB goes version 2, and clobbers Gaara in an instant. Ya know, since he's easily as fast and strong as Raikage in that mode, and gaara doesn't have a sharigan that can allow him to keep up with his movements (not that it helped sasuke much anyway). -___-

KBs too stupid to win, just like against kisame...Kisame's not the sharpest tool in the shed either, so what's your point.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 10:06 PM

GTFO son. Shukaku was mention when this fight was proposed. Whether or not your taking him into consideration doesn't matter. The rest of us are.

Use what u want, I purposely took him out cause gaara no longer has him and even mentioned it so get over it...

Yeah, I'm sure Samehada had nothing to do with it now did it!!!!!!!

Seriously guy, Samehada healed any damage Kisame took, and sucked away KB's chakra. Gaara can't do either of those.

Samehada healed kisame, we dont know how same will work for KB as I said in my fisrt post. Samehada is a hachibi junkie and just may take it as he leases when bijuu mode is invoked cause of his love for it... U assuming shit when kisame had years to bond with that sword and learn how to use it while KB has yet to even test it in battle so right now, realistically, its just another sword until proven to work with KB otherwise...

More like KB goes version 2, and clobbers Gaara in an instant. Ya know, since he's easily as fast and strong as Raikage in that mode, and gaara doesn't have a sharigan that can allow him to keep up with his movements

Yea because gaaras going to know about a jink and just leave himself out in the open LMAO... now ur making gaara sound like the tard! Fact is gaaras leader of the alliance and has info on all his soldiers including KB so ur idea is flawed like a naruto vs ??? scenario cause hes the main character and they just do that for him...

(not that it helped sasuke much anyway. -___-

U would bring that up... But it was still more then enough for naruto to admit he cant beat sasuke even though he PNJed past nagato lol.

Kisame's not the sharpest tool in the shed either, so what's your point.

Thats ^^ where u prove u wouldnt know intelligent from dur, dahdurr stupid by a statement like that. Kisame is smart as shit and out thought KB and the alliance when he fought gai as well.

AOTKorby

12-27-2010, 10:41 PM

ask me anything

12-27-2010, 10:44 PM

Samehada healed kisame, we dont know how same will work for KB as I said in my fisrt post. Samehada is a hachibi junkie and just may take it as he leases when bijuu mode is invoked cause of his love for it... U assuming shit when kisame had years to bond with that sword and learn how to use it while KB has yet to even test it in battle so right now, realistically, its just another sword until proven to work with KB otherwise...

You completely missed what I said.

I didn't say anything about KB using Samehada. I said Kisame had a huge advantage over KB from using it, and that Gaara doesn't have that same advantage. Gaara cannot absorb chakra or heal himself rapidly. Your making it sound like Kisame kicked KB's ass, when it was Samehada that won that fight for him. Without it Kisame would have died when KB used the Lariat on him.

Yea because gaaras going to know about a jink and just leave himself out in the open LMAO... now ur making gaara sound like the tard! Fact is gaaras leader of the alliance and has info on all his soldiers including KB so ur idea is flawed like a naruto vs ??? scenario cause hes the main character and they just do that for him...
Gaara might be 10 times smarter then KB, but that doesn't matter if he isn't physically capable of keeping up. We already went through a miniature version of this fight with rock lee vs. sasuke before the chuunin exams. Saskue was all like "I'mma genius and I got a sharingan, so I can see through anything you can do.", and Lee was like "I don't care what you see. You still can't keep up Bi-otch." Same thing applies here.

U would bring that up... But it was still more then enough for naruto to admit he cant beat sasuke even though he PNJed past nagato lol.
What the hell is this even in reference too??? Why the hell should I care about naruto and PNJ??? I'm talking about this fight. Don't try to change the subject.

Thats ^^ where u prove u wouldnt know intelligent from dur, dahdurr stupid by a statement like that. Kisame is smart as shit and out thought KB and the alliance when he fought gai as well.
O'rly??? Last time I checked all that was madara plan. He designed the ploy to sneak Kisame in, and had Zetsu's clone fool everybody. All he had to do was lay low for a bit and ease drop on conversations.

How does sitting there doing nothing, showcase Kisame's intelligence. I'm pretty sure 95% of the characters in this manga could just sit there and keep quiet.

What exactly did kisame do after he got caught anyway. Seems like he hauled ass. If he was half as smart as you say, he should have thought up a way to get away better, other then "TEAM ROCKET IS BLASTING OFF AGAIN".

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 10:48 PM

Is this seriously still being debated?

This should have been over the second we figured out that 8 Tails > 1 Tail. Gaara doesn't have shit that can stop KB, and KB has everything to trump Gaara's techs. This should have been a one-post, 10-0 competition.

Anyone suggesting that Gaara would win because "his sand defense could totally stop a Menacing Ball"...yeah no. Deidara's C3 was barely contained by Gaara taking control of all the sand in the immediately surrounding desert. Gaara was practically passed out after this. C3 doesn't have shit on the 8-Tails Menacing Ball. And unlike Gaara's strongest possible defense, KB can use the Menacing Ball as much as he fucking wants. This never should have been a contest.

Thats where u and so many others fail! This isnt fing DBZ its naruto! And guess what? SHikamaru beat Hidan cause of prior knowledge and flawlessly at that cause intelligence plus prior info on the enemy=super saiyan powers in this series and ques whos super intelligent, has all the tool, tactics and prior info kn KB? Yes, Gaara!!

Do the math.. The only way gaara loses is if he fights KB on a mountain of huge slab of rock he cant manipulate in which case he would escape..
Otherwise KB ends up a mile deep underground suffocated, crushed or drowned under a large body of water by where theyre fighting using sand to hold him there...

ninjalostboy95

12-27-2010, 10:50 PM

Dont be a fucking fanboy NLB!! Im not even adding shukaku into the equation if u read my post...

that's even worse. His chakra is very limited now.

Facts are fact and KB is a freaking tard!!!! Hes all Braun no brain which is why kisame kicked his ass without even trying to kill him..

it's "Brawns" and Naruto beat Gaara so yeah, brains don't really matter.

Gaara fights long range and can hide while fighting as well while KB plays "hulk smash" Gaara waits for KB to go full hachibi then buries his ass 1 mile deep.

Gaara fights mid ranged KYF. Also burying Hachibi takes a lot of chakra and since Gaara doesn't have Shukaku, he'll tire himself out. Besides, if Gaara pulls it off, KB can revert back to normal and since it's a mile deep, he has plenty of space to raiton his way out or bijuu blast out.

KBs too stupid to win, just like against kisame.

Just like you against me? Oh burn.

ask me anything

12-27-2010, 10:57 PM

it's "Brawns" and Naruto beat Gaara so yeah, brains don't really matter.

THIS....so damn much. Oh, and to add to this, Naruto didn't even go fox cloak for that shit. Hahaha.

Just like you against me? Oh burn.

GAME OVER

AOTKorby

12-27-2010, 10:59 PM

Thats where u and so many others fail! This isnt fing DBZ its naruto! And guess what? SHikamaru beat Hidan cause of prior knowledge and flawlessly at that cause intelligence plus prior info on the enemy=super saiyan powers in this series and ques whos super intelligent, has all the tool, tactics and prior info kn KB? Yes, Gaara!!

Look at the characters you're dealing with. Gaara exclusively uses large-scale Sand attacks. His Taijutsu and Genjutsu are garbage, and "strategy" for Gaara boils down to "overwhelm them with fucking sand". That would never fucking work against someone like KB who overpowers Gaara by such a huge degree.

Do the math.. The only way gaara loses is if he fights KB on a mountain of huge slab of rock he cant manipulate in which case he would escape..
Otherwise KB ends up a mile deep underground suffocated, crushed or drowned under a large body of water by where theyre fighting using sand to hold him there...

Or if KB blitzes him straight through the sand because it is not strong enough to stop him.

Or if KB spams Menacing Ball and runs Gaara right out of chakra.

Or if KB keeps the fight in close range, where Gaara is completely impotent.

Or if KB decides to use the power of the Hachibi, which is easily great enough to raze a country to overwhelm everything Gaara tries.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 11:05 PM

You completely missed what I said.

I didn't say anything about KB using Samehada. I said Kisame had a huge advantage over KB from using it, and that Gaara doesn't have that same advantage. Gaara cannot absorb chakra or heal himself rapidly. Your making it sound like Kisame kicked KB's ass, when it was Samehada that won that fight for him. Without it Kisame would have died when KB used the Lariat on him.

Oh please, kisame had same and KN had a bijuu, theyre even!!! No, kisame strategically picked KB apart and ur inability to notice this is why I shouldnt even debate it with u...

Gaara might be 10 times smarter then KB, but that doesn't matter if he isn't physically capable of keeping up. We already went through a miniature version of this fight with rock lee vs. sasuke before the chuunin exams. Saskue was all like "I'mma genius and I got a sharingan, so I can see through anything you can do.", and Lee was like "I don't care what you see. You still can't keep up Bi-otch." Same thing applies here.

Gaara has no need to keep up when he can hide some where, use sand clone and see the battle with his sand eye thing... Gaaras sand is quick enough to keep up with deidei on his bird so he has speedy attacks so keeping up offensively is no problem while he stays hidden... Its all a mater of time until KB get buried deep underground to suffocate...

What the hell is this even in reference too??? Why the hell should I care about naruto and PNJ??? I'm talking about this fight. Don't try to change the subject.

U suggested gaara would just sit there and let his ass get lariated... which was PNJ BS considering gaaras info he should have on KB by now.

O'rly??? Last time I checked all that was madara plan. He designed the ploy to sneak Kisame in, and had Zetsu's clone fool everybody. All he had to do was lay low for a bit and ease drop on conversations.

It was tobis plan, but was kisames to get to that point. Kisame played KB like a fiddle and did it flawlessly... The same way he outsmarted the alliance on the turtle island and got info out for tobi... Hes smart as shit and u know it..

How does sitting there doing nothing, showcase Kisame's intelligence. I'm pretty sure 95% of the characters in this manga could just sit there and keep quiet.

U need to reread the fight with KB cause ur just dumbfounded at this point IMO... Kisame played KB like a fool with use of proper jutsu and tactics...

What exactly did kisame do after he got caught anyway. Seems like he hauled ass. If he was half as smart as you say, he should have thought up a way to get away better, other then "TEAM ROCKET IS BLASTING OFF AGAIN".

wtf r u talking about?? Who plans for the tard of the kyuubi to magically be able to sense evil intentions??? That was just random and he still got his info out which is the proof of his intelligence.....

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 11:08 PM

THIS....so damn much. Oh, and to add to this, Naruto didn't even go fox cloak for that shit. Hahaha.

GAME OVER

LMAO, naruto fought gaara in 1tail mode and magically hit his weak spot (PNFINJ) so dont tell me shit... Sasuke had already wounded gaara twice before naruto showed up to PNJ past what was left :rolleyes: Quit deluding ur selves...

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 11:15 PM

Look at the characters you're dealing with. Gaara exclusively uses large-scale Sand attacks. His Taijutsu and Genjutsu are garbage, and "strategy" for Gaara boils down to "overwhelm them with fucking sand". That would never fucking work against someone like KB who overpowers Gaara by such a huge degree.

Thats retarded!!! Gaaras the general of the whole alliance cause thats all hes capable of... Last I checked when lee overwhelmed him he used a replacement jutsu... And last I checked when kimimarro overwhelmed him he buried his ass and end game.... Gaaras not a one tactic pony like KB so quit BSing...

Or if KB blitzes him straight through the sand because it is not strong enough to stop him.

Or if KB spams Menacing Ball and runs Gaara right out of chakra.

Or if KB keeps the fight in close range, where Gaara is completely impotent.

Or if KB decides to use the power of the Hachibi, which is easily great enough to raze a country to overwhelm everything Gaara tries.

This is all just BS!!! Ur ignoring the fact gaara as leader of the alliance will have knowledge of KBs abilities so him sitting there is retarded antifanning at its worse.. Gaaras a tactician who will force KB to blow through chakra while setting traps (while hiding wherever he pleases and watching with his sand eye)

So KBs out in the open to get pounded on by endless sand attacks until he finally gets buried.... Nothing more to discuss. KBs power and speed mean nothing when he cant find gaara as hes getting pounded on... Point, match, game.

AOTKorby

12-27-2010, 11:15 PM

LMAO, naruto fought gaara in 1tail mode and magically hit his weak spot (PNFINJ) so dont tell me shit... Sasuke had already wounded gaara twice before naruto showed up to PNJ past what was left :rolleyes: Quit deluding ur selves...

Lolwhat?

Sasuke got thrown around like a ragdoll by not-even-1-tail mode. Naruto was the one that got hits in on mini-Shukaku and "beat" full Shukaku.

Remember kids, defending Naruto is only okay if it's done to retort the idiocy of an Uchihatard.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

12-27-2010, 11:19 PM

Lolwhat?

Sasuke got thrown around like a ragdoll by not-even-1-tail mode. Naruto was the one that got hits in on mini-Shukaku and "beat" full Shukaku.

Remember kids, defending Naruto is only okay if it's done to retort the idiocy of an Uchihatard.

Hey dumbass!!! How is it naruto isnt getting blitzed like sasuke was? How is it he gains power beyond what he used against neji in kyuubi mode? How is it he managed to hit gaaras weak spot magically after having no idea about it? It was fucking main character PNJ so naruto could beat a character he otherwise never could!!!

U just want to delude ur self that naruto could actually of won otherwise lol. thats the reality of the situation...

ask me anything

12-27-2010, 11:41 PM

Oh please, kisame had same and KN had a bijuu, theyre even!!! No, kisame strategically picked KB apart and ur inability to notice this is why I shouldnt even debate it with u...

Your an idiot. They're not even!!!! It's the fact that KB (don't know who this KN guys is???) had a bijuu that gave Kisame the advantage. That just meant more chakra for him to absorb, and the greater samehada's healing ability would be. If you don't know that, then you shouldn't be arguing with anyone....ever. Oh, and way to not actually respond to what I said. Good job bro -_-b

Gaara has no need to keep up when he can hide some where, use sand clone and see the battle with his sand eye thing... Gaaras sand is quick enough to keep up with deidei on his bird so he has speedy attacks so keeping up offensively is no problem while he stays hidden... Its all a mater of time until KB get buried deep underground to suffocate...

KB>>>gaara in speed. That's not even debatable. If he goes into hiding then KB start spamming menacing balls until he comes out or gets hit.

U suggested gaara would just sit there and let his ass get lariated... which was PNJ BS considering gaaras info he should have on KB by now.

If he's not fast enough to defend himself he might as well be sitting there.

It was tobis plan, but was kisames to get to that point. Kisame played KB like a fiddle and did it flawlessly... The same way he outsmarted the alliance on the turtle island and got info out for tobi... Hes smart as shit and u know it..

Playing the part doesn't take intelligence. It just takes good acting. Naruto's as dumb as a brick, but even he can follow a plan. Your not proving your point at all here.

U need to reread the fight with KB cause ur just dumbfounded at this point IMO... Kisame played KB like a fool with use of proper jutsu and tactics...

KB stabbed him with a knife, and Samehada absorbed the chakra from it.

KB went version 2 and ripped open Kisames chest. Samehada healed him.

What exactly did Kisame do again. Do elaborate.

wtf r u talking about?? Who plans for the tard of the kyuubi to magically be able to sense evil intentions??? That was just random and he still got his info out which is the proof of his intelligence.....

Anybody with some sense knows to expect the worst. He didn't have to plan for Naruto exactly, but he should have made a plan in case somebody (anybody at all) discovers him, and had counter attacks ready to go. Especially when he's spent the last couple of day hanging around these guys, and should have knowledge of them and their jutsu's. If he had any intelligence he should have developed counters for them, but he didn't.

ask me anything

12-27-2010, 11:48 PM

... And last I checked when kimimarro overwhelmed him he buried his ass and end game.... Gaaras not a one tactic pony like KB so quit BSing...

O'rly? So Kimimaro didn't escape from Gaar's SUPER DUPER ULTIMATE SAND COFFIN. I guess I just imagined all that huh. Oh, and last time I checked, disease killed Kimimaro. Otherwise neither Gaara or Lee would be alive right now.

And what else does Gaara use besides sand??? I THOUGHT SO. Sounds like a one trick pony to me.

MANGA FCATS!!!:p:p:p

Hey KYF. Whatever happened to that fail argument you made a while back about how Gaara's sand is a DOTON. Do you still stick by that now?

Sensei-Q

12-28-2010, 05:34 AM

to add to ur point shukaku cant do a huge dessert coffin cause he has no control over his biju and when he goes biju mode he puts himself to sleep so its only one mind fighting not two.

You ruined my post. The agreements don't have to have anything to do with it. The Hachibi rapes Ichibi. End of story.

itachikillsnaruto

12-28-2010, 09:49 AM

^ actually my post should help ur post cause or the fact that they have an agreement. with this kind of power they pawn ichbi.

Thor

12-29-2010, 08:45 AM

ahhhh, how i missed KYF...

ask me anything

12-29-2010, 06:39 PM

ahhhh, your the only one who did... :D

Gakure

01-01-2011, 04:58 AM

A standstill fighter like Gaara cannot even hope to beat someone like Bee. Yes gaara has long range ability but that is overwhelmed by Bee's speed, which can outrun his sand.

The cloak form speed is already outstanding(sasuke was able dodge for the mere fact that he had SG and Bee moved in a straight line) how much more v1 and v2. (Bee winz 9:1)

I have a strategy for Gaara though. He just have to airborne on his sand(fight from the air) and watch out for Bijuu balls. Shikaku shdnt be brought out, cos Bee would stomp the crap out of it since all it does is a dodge-able fuuton ball. (Bee winz 6:4)

k-lai

01-01-2011, 07:26 AM

hmm I don't know. I think having prior info. about an opponent b4 a fight coupled with intelligence can sometimes if not always win the day no matter how haxed the opponent is

superninja

01-09-2011, 01:17 PM

Wolverine

01-10-2011, 01:24 AM

Gara managed to block raikages leg punch and raikage normally breaks through stone walls and is fast so if Gara can block that with his sand then he has a chance vs Killerbee. Gara also blocked amateratsu with his sand or something like that. If Kishi wants Gara to win, then Gara can win, he showed enough power before to back it up as well. This is not a matter of whether the one tailed demon beast is stronger than the 8 tails, that doesn't matter, akatsuki members have no tail beasts but they were capturing the jinchurikis regardless, it is individual skill of the ninja that matters.

Just because he stopped Raikage's leg punch doesn't automatically make him better. For starters, Raikage was never focusing on Gaara so he was caught off guard. The other thing you forget is that Gaara is a defensive fighter, none of his offensive capabilities seem to be strong enough to take out Bee who works in complete cohesion with the Hachibi. This is not a case of controlling the Hachibi's power, since the Hachibi has a mind of his own and will readily help Bee kill Gaara. Plus, Bee has never used the Bijuu ball, probably since it has too much power.

What one can make of your arguments is that Bee cannot hurt Gaara. It does not necessarily mean that Gaara can beat Bee.

P.S. Please do not compare Gaara to Akatsuki Members. Gaara lost to Deidera when he was surrounded by sand. Yes, I agree that it was plot... but he still lost to a guy who then lost to Sasuke, who was totally outclassed by Bee in terms of sheer speed and sheer strength.

superninja

01-10-2011, 08:36 AM

Just because he stopped Raikage's leg punch doesn't automatically make him better. For starters, Raikage was never focusing on Gaara so he was caught off guard. The other thing you forget is that Gaara is a defensive fighter, none of his offensive capabilities seem to be strong enough to take out Bee who works in complete cohesion with the Hachibi. This is not a case of controlling the Hachibi's power, since the Hachibi has a mind of his own and will readily help Bee kill Gaara. Plus, Bee has never used the Bijuu ball, probably since it has too much power.

What one can make of your arguments is that Bee cannot hurt Gaara. It does not necessarily mean that Gaara can beat Bee.

P.S. Please do not compare Gaara to Akatsuki Members. Gaara lost to Deidera when he was surrounded by sand. Yes, I agree that it was plot... but he still lost to a guy who then lost to Sasuke, who was totally outclassed by Bee in terms of sheer speed and sheer strength.

All I'm saying is that Gara is uber strong, but Kishimoto didn't show him fight since Deidara fight. The fight between Gara and Killerbee would be a spectacle, it could last for a long time. Also, in my version, Gara uses sand clones to further mislead his opponent and can dive through earth by using sand tunnels. I know I kind of made that one jutsu up, but it is logical that he could use stuff like that by now.

On whether Gara can hurt Killerbee, Gara fought against Kimimaro who had an absolute defense and buried him with sand deep down to the center of the earth, after the time skip he used sand attacks of greater magnitude vs Deidara, so if we take the attack he used vs Kimimaro and make it bigger since he can use bigger jutsus after time skip, then it is logical to conclude gara could bury Killerbee deep down if he catches him, and he can catch him by creating a field of quick sand with a greater diameter than what he used vs Kimimaro.

itachikillsnaruto

01-10-2011, 10:29 AM

AOTKorby

01-10-2011, 03:42 PM

Because the fact that Deidara didn't use 3 of his strongest techniques doesn't offset that at all. He never used C2 Dragon against Gaara, he never used C4 against Gaara, and he obviously didn't use C0 against him. Gaara wouldn't have had a prayer against any of those. So people saying "Gaara totally woulda won if not for Suna" are kidding themselves.

Seriously, why is this continuing? Before you try to come up with some reasoning Gaara could conceivably beat Bee, ask yourself again: WHY THE FUCK IS THIS EVEN CONTINUING!? There is just plain no way Gaara could beat Bee. Bee has him outclassed on every level. EVERY level.

Sensei-Q

01-10-2011, 03:48 PM

Bee has him outclassed on every level. EVERY level.

For starters; He's black.

KillerNN

01-10-2011, 03:57 PM

Sakura vs. Hinata
http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/5070101/PROBLEM-U-MAD.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=trollface

Sensei-Q

01-10-2011, 04:06 PM

Sakura vs. Hinata
http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/5070101/PROBLEM-U-MAD.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=trollface

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/087/635/original/trollmasknewface.png?1292152248

Hinata wins in every possible way. HINATA FTW.

superninja

01-10-2011, 05:33 PM

WHY THE FUCK IS THIS EVEN CONTINUING!?

It's continuing coz I'm bored. hahahehe

C2 dragon would do nothing against Gara, Gara would just block the projectile explosives with his sand. C4 and C0, one of those is a suicide move that creates giant explosion right? The other is a microbomb attack. So to conclude, Deidara going kamikaze is a draw, and he could probably pull that and succeed vs almost any ninja in the series, including Killerbee. Microbombs would defeat Gara, they would also defeat Killerbee and anyone that doesn't have sharingan or byakugan to see them.
But Deidara was a perfect match against Gara coz he can fly, imagine if he was a fighter that was earth bound...Gara would have crushed him in the desert very quickly using giant sand burial jutsu.

There is just plain no way Gaara could beat Bee. Bee has him outclassed on every level. EVERY level.

Gara has greater range and his attacks cover greater area, he can fly so he is more mobile. Gara is a kazekage so it is only natural that he can compete against kage lvl shinobis like Killerbee, Tsuchikage, Naruto etc. Kishimoto wouldn't make him a weakling if he was to draw a fight between the two, that would be lame.

AOTKorby

01-10-2011, 06:06 PM

It's continuing coz I'm bored. hahahehe

C2 dragon would do nothing against Gara, Gara would just block the projectile explosives with his sand. C4 and C0, one of those is a suicide move that creates giant explosion right? The other is a microbomb attack. So to conclude, Deidara going kamikaze is a draw, and he could probably pull that and succeed vs almost any ninja in the series, including Killerbee. Microbombs would defeat Gara, they would also defeat Killerbee and anyone that doesn't have sharingan or byakugan to see them.
But Deidara was a perfect match against Gara coz he can fly, imagine if he was a fighter that was earth bound...Gara would have crushed him in the desert very quickly using giant sand burial jutsu.

C2 Dragon has something Gaara doesn't: spam. Gaara can't handle spam.
Bee could survive C4 the exact same way Sasuke did, at least think about what you're saying.

Gara has greater range and his attacks cover greater area, he can fly so he is more mobile. Gara is a kazekage so it is only natural that he can compete against kage lvl shinobis like Killerbee, Tsuchikage, Naruto etc. Kishimoto wouldn't make him a weakling if he was to draw a fight between the two, that would be lame.

If by "greater range and area" you mean "less range and area than the Bijuu Bomb/Menacing Ball". The Bijuu bomb alone would be enough to wreck Gaara's shit harder than Lee, Kimimaro, and Deidara combined. Bee is physically stronger than Kimimaro, faster than Lee, and more powerful than Deidara in pure destructive force. He has everything anyone could need in beating Gaara. I love that you say "WELL HE CAN FLY" here while saying Deidara had an advantage against Gaara because he could fly. It's so incredibly contradictory and hypocritical. KB's speed and power overwhelm everything Gaara could even attempt. End of story.

Wolverine

01-11-2011, 01:31 AM

Sakura vs. Hinata
http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/5070101/PROBLEM-U-MAD.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=trollface

You just had to do that, didn't you? You dog... :p

superninja

01-13-2011, 11:31 AM

C2 Dragon has something Gaara doesn't: spam. Gaara can't handle spam.
Bee could survive C4 the exact same way Sasuke did, at least think about what you're saying.

I would like you to clarify how could Bee survive the C4 the exact same way Sasuke did.

Gara can't handle spam? I don't know what to say about that, he only has the absolute defense when he creates a sand sphere around himself so if you spam him with long range attacks it would do nothing unless they can pierce the sphere. While he is in the sphere he can create a sand eye that gives him vision of what is going on outside so he can even create additional sand walls around him to block the incoming projectiles.

If by "greater range and area" you mean "less range and area than the Bijuu Bomb/Menacing Ball". The Bijuu bomb alone would be enough to wreck Gaara's shit harder than Lee, Kimimaro, and Deidara combined. Bee is physically stronger than Kimimaro, faster than Lee, and more powerful than Deidara in pure destructive force. He has everything anyone could need in beating Gaara. I love that you say "WELL HE CAN FLY" here while saying Deidara had an advantage against Gaara because he could fly. It's so incredibly contradictory and hypocritical. KB's speed and power overwhelm everything Gaara could even attempt. End of story.

So Bee spams the menacing balls now? I never saw him fight like that in the manga. I didn't know Bee is a menacing ball spammer. Bijuu bomb would be either evaded or blocked with a giant wall of sand, you can pick one of those two options coz Gara is capable of doing either.
When I said Deidara had the advantage of flying I was comparing him with the guys that can't fly, so I say Deidara was best suited to fight Gara. Deidara is better suited to fight Gara than Killerbee is. You don't respect gingers enough, that is the root of the problem lmao. I know what the real problem is though, you guys are underestimating Gara way too much, I hope Kishi will show him doing some gigantic sand attack soon so you can see the power and area of Gara's attacks.

Just had a great idea, imagine if Killerbee started to charge his bijuu ball and Gara catches his feet with sand and trips him to land on his face. Gara can even redirect his attack.

AOTKorby

01-13-2011, 05:08 PM

I would like you to clarify how could Bee survive the C4 the exact same way Sasuke did.

Bee = Raiton user. Fucking pathetic.

Gara can't handle spam? I don't know what to say about that, he only has the absolute defense when he creates a sand sphere around himself so if you spam him with long range attacks it would do nothing unless they can pierce the sphere. While he is in the sphere he can create a sand eye that gives him vision of what is going on outside so he can even create additional sand walls around him to block the incoming projectiles.

C2 Dragon's projectiles are far, FAR stronger than anything C1. Spamming that would break holes in Gaara's defense exactly the same way Lee's blitzing did. A mere blitz from Bee would be several times stronger than a C2 projectile.

So Bee spams the menacing balls now? I never saw him fight like that in the manga. I didn't know Bee is a menacing ball spammer. Bijuu bomb would be either evaded or blocked with a giant wall of sand, you can pick one of those two options coz Gara is capable of doing either.
When I said Deidara had the advantage of flying I was comparing him with the guys that can't fly, so I say Deidara was best suited to fight Gara. Deidara is better suited to fight Gara than Killerbee is. You don't respect gingers enough, that is the root of the problem lmao. I know what the real problem is though, you guys are underestimating Gara way too much, I hope Kishi will show him doing some gigantic sand attack soon so you can see the power and area of Gara's attacks.

So what you're saying is that the Bijuu Bomb, which is fully capable of utterly destroying an entire city, would be blocked "easily" by Gaara? When Gaara couldn't even fully block C3 with all the sand of a fucking desert? Given that Bee stated that the Bijuu bomb is, quote, "the first technique any Jinchuuriki learns", yeah, I'd say he's perfectly capable of using it a lot. Especially since it didn't weaken Bee or Naruto using it the same way Samehada draining chakra did, so it obviously does not take huge amounts of Bijuu chakra to use the tech.

We're obviously underestimating Gaara by not assuming that he can do all manner of shit that he has never shown or ignoring manga evidence of the actual power of his techniques.

Just had a great idea, imagine if Killerbee started to charge his bijuu ball and Gara catches his feet with sand and trips him to land on his face. Gara can even redirect his attack.

Because that worked so well for Pain. Oh wait, no it didn't. It got him and a 2km radius around him blown up. From an incomplete, 6-tails Menacing Ball.

superninja

01-14-2011, 08:19 AM

Bee = Raiton user. Fucking pathetic.

Let me clear something out first - C4 are microbombs, right? How the fuck would Killerbee even see them or know about them? He wouldn't so he wouldn't be able to counter that. Sasuke had sharingan.

C2 Dragon's projectiles are far, FAR stronger than
anything C1. Spamming that would break holes in Gaara's defense exactly the same way Lee's blitzing did. A mere blitz from Bee would be several times stronger than a C2 projectile.

How do you know an ordinary explosion would break holes in Gara's defense. Even if it breaks holes Gara can mend them quickly.
Lee was before time skip and Gara was not as proficient then as he is now.
How will Bee blitz Gara when Gara is 100 meters in the air standing in his sand sphere?

So what you're saying is that the Bijuu Bomb, which is fully capable of utterly destroying an entire city, would be blocked "easily" by Gaara? When Gaara couldn't even fully block C3 with all the sand of a fucking desert? Given that Bee stated that the Bijuu bomb is, quote, "the first technique any Jinchuuriki learns", yeah, I'd say he's perfectly capable of using it a lot. Especially since it didn't weaken Bee or Naruto using it the same way Samehada draining chakra did, so it obviously does not take huge amounts of Bijuu chakra to use the tech.

Gara did block that explosion from Deidara otherwise the sand village would have been destroyed.

We're obviously underestimating Gaara by not assuming that he can do all manner of shit that he has never shown or ignoring manga evidence of the actual power of his techniques.

There is manga evidence that Gara can block an explosion that would destroy an entire city. Maybe he would be low on chakra after that though.

Because that worked so well for Pain. Oh wait, no it didn't. It got him and a 2km radius around him blown up. From an incomplete, 6-tails Menacing Ball.

Gara can solo Yahiko Pein.

Look, we obviously don't agree on Gara's overall strength, so there is no point on arguing this vs anymore. At least admit Bee would have a hard time against Gara and we can move on to the next fight.

k-lai

01-14-2011, 09:25 AM

Wolverine

01-14-2011, 10:00 AM

Vengeance

01-14-2011, 03:49 PM

Sakura vs. Hinata
http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/5070101/PROBLEM-U-MAD.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=trollface
Had this debate a thousand times. Sakura wins 8-2.

Wolverine

01-14-2011, 03:55 PM

Kabuto vs Orochimaru...

Please do not include Edo-Tensei in this fight. I want to know which of the two is the better fighter.

Vengeance

01-14-2011, 04:07 PM

Kabuto vs Orochimaru...

Please do not include Edo-Tensei in this fight. I want to know which of the two is the better fighter.
Kabuto since he's the only dude in history to give Oro the finger & lived to tell the tale.

-SassyLady-

01-14-2011, 04:32 PM

Kabuto Hands Down ;)

superninja

01-14-2011, 04:57 PM

Ok I'm calling it now killer bee vrs pain(all bodies)
I say that bee stands a good chance of winning although I do not dispute the fact that pain is the shit but a partially acquired sage mode jiraiya was able to get rid of 3 bodies and only lost b'cos of a l'il mistake. Probably a draw or a win for either one with great chakra loss

I don't know, I think Pein would win with all his 6 bodies working synchronized against just one person that is Killerbee. If Killerbee can use the samehada then he has better chances. But still, Pein wins.

Kabuto vs Orochimaru...

Please do not include Edo-Tensei in this fight. I want to know which of the two is the better fighter.

I don't know how that fight would go, but I pick Oro as the winner. Reason is I like him better. They both look like snakes now and have big regeneration if they get hurt. Kabuto knows medicine so he might be able to kill Oro with his knowledge, Oro might know his snake form weaknesses so he might use that against Kabuto. Oro is more courageous and willing to take risks than Kabuto is and that could be his advantage. Kabuto is more aware of his limitations and doesn't overestimate himself and that could be his advantage.

AOTKorby

01-14-2011, 06:45 PM

Let me clear something out first - C4 are microbombs, right? How the fuck would Killerbee even see them or know about them? He wouldn't so he wouldn't be able to counter that. Sasuke had sharingan.

Remember that Sasuke also figured out that the microbombs existed because Deidara refused to fly in their radius in a very obvious fashion.

How do you know an ordinary explosion would break holes in Gara's defense. Even if it breaks holes Gara can mend them quickly.
Lee was before time skip and Gara was not as proficient then as he is now.
How will Bee blitz Gara when Gara is 100 meters in the air standing in his sand sphere?

If kicking something hard can break it, then blowing it up will break it harder. C2 Dragon spams like nothing else. Gaara wouldn't be able to repair a defense that is constantly getting blown to hell.

How will KB blitz Gaara from 100m away when he's in the air? The exact same way he blitzed Hawk from half a mile away and completely annihilated the rock they were standing on.

Gara did block that explosion from Deidara otherwise the sand village would have been destroyed.

Parts of the village were destroyed.

There is manga evidence that Gara can block an explosion that would destroy an entire city. Maybe he would be low on chakra after that though.

If by "maybe" you mean "no shit sherlock". It happened exactly that way in the manga. You can't argue that Gaara would somehow be able to do the same shit and not be exhausted.

Taking up the sand from an entire desert using up all of his chakra was barely able to contain most of C3. Again: 8-Tails Menacing ball is on a whole other level compared to C3.

Gara can solo Yahiko Pein.

what

Look, we obviously don't agree on Gara's overall strength, so there is no point on arguing this vs anymore. At least admit Bee would have a hard time against Gara and we can move on to the next fight.

If by "hard time" you mean "one shot".

Oh, and Veng, your points for why Sakura would "totally beat Hinata lolol" were shit then and they're worse now that it's confirmed she can use Air Palm.

KillerNN

01-14-2011, 08:29 PM

Had this debate a thousand times. Sakura wins 8-2.

I agree, but it was a troll. Hence, the trollface.

Vengeance

01-15-2011, 12:21 PM

Oh, and Veng, your points for why Sakura would "totally beat Hinata lolol" were shit then and they're worse now that it's confirmed she can use Air Palm.
1. Sakura defeated Lee, Kiba, & Sai at the same time with a simple sleeping powder bomb.
2. Sakura's poison is powerful enough to take down the nine tails Jink.
3. Sakura is physically stronger & faster than Hinata.
4. Hinata has never injured a single person in the manga whenever she fought.
5. Hinata can't close chakra points.

Sensei-Q

01-15-2011, 12:47 PM

Was the Oro vs Kabuto a troll attempt, or are you serious? Dunno why I thanked that post though.

superninja

01-15-2011, 04:43 PM

If by "hard time" you mean "one shot".

I didn't want to continue this, but since there is not much else going on I might as well explain how Gara's defense and offense work so you can appreciate the character better.
Gara can use two types of sand in combat, his gourd sand and the sand form the environment. The gourd sand moves faster and creates stronger defense around Gara and Gara uses that sand to create a sphere around himself or to launch fast attacks - that is his final defense. The sand from the environment moves slower and is not as compact most of the time, but there is a lot of it so it is useful for gigantic attacks or defense. In the fight against Deidara, Deidara's explosions were only damaging the weaker sand but the sphere built from the stronger sand was intact the entire fight. That is why Deidara had to sacrifice his arm so he can circumvent Gara's defense, otherwise his explosions would have never gotten through.
So much about C2 Dragon, huh? It's projectiles could be either blocked by the weaker sand far before they reach Gara, and while they would damage that sand structure it wouldn't make much difference to Gara. Or they would reach the sand sphere and they probably wouldn't damage it at all. The only time the sphere was damaged was with chidori. Lee's punches didn't go through the fully formed sand defense, Lee was moving fast enough to circumvent Gara's defense before it fully forms so Lee was breaking through not completely compact sand.
Gara probably used his gourd sand to block raikage's leg chop because he was fast enough to block raikage before raikage or anyone noticed him. Gara can use that fast sand to stall a fast close range fighter like raikage or killerbee long enough for him to go long range.

AOTKorby

01-15-2011, 05:32 PM

1. Sakura defeated Lee, Kiba, & Sai at the same time with a simple sleeping powder bomb.
2. Sakura's poison is powerful enough to take down the nine tails Jink.
3. Sakura is physically stronger & faster than Hinata.
4. Hinata has never injured a single person in the manga whenever she fought.
5. Hinata can't close chakra points.

1. Would have lasted about 10 seconds against Sai if Lee and Kiba hadn't taken her side. Like retards.
2. Fair enough. Shizune's design, but Sakura does have it and use it.
3. Stronger in terms of raw force, yes. Gentle fist doesn't rely on raw force, so this is null, however. Speed is a valuable point.
4. She's fought two people: Neji and Pain. Two people that virtually no one could injure. Setting bar very very very very high. (Thank you for saying "injured" instead of "hit", since I had to prove that she did in fact hit Neji plenty during their fight last week and I don't feel like doing it again).
5. Your only proof is that she couldn't do so as a Genin. That doesn't mean she will never be able to.

6. She is confirmed to have Air Palm. Having a reliable, powerful projectile gives her significant points.

Based solely on feats, Sakura would win at most 7-3. Based on actually thinking about shit, I'd say it's 6-4 Sakura or 5-5.

EDIT:

Super, just stop. The explosives that Gaara's defense was blocking were all C1. C1 is far weaker than C2. KB's swords are just as strong as Chidori. He's easily as fast as Lee. And he hits about 20x harder than his brother. Just accept that Gaara would get his ass kicked. This is fucking stupid.

The Special One

01-15-2011, 05:58 PM

Kabuto vs Orochimaru...

Please do not include Edo-Tensei in this fight. I want to know which of the two is the better fighter.

Orochimaru is the better fighter hands down, however, Kabuto (current) would destroy Orochimaru based off hype and his mastery of the White Snake form, which benefits Kabuto a lot more than it did Orochimaru.

I don't like how Kabuto fights. He's too cheap, that's why Orochimaru's the better fighter in my opinion. So yeah, fact is, Kabuto is superior in every way if they fought... I don't particularly like his style though.

Wolverine

01-16-2011, 01:55 AM

Orochimaru is the better fighter hands down, however, Kabuto (current) would destroy Orochimaru based off hype and his mastery of the White Snake form, which benefits Kabuto a lot more than it did Orochimaru.

I don't like how Kabuto fights. He's too cheap, that's why Orochimaru's the better fighter in my opinion. So yeah, fact is, Kabuto is superior in every way if they fought... I don't particularly like his style though.

Thank you for sharing and stating the exact sentiments I had in mind. I kinda had the same feeling myself, but clearly Kabuto is superior now, and hence I stated, "I want to know who the better fighter is."

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 02:02 AM

@SK: Hinata did not hit Neji. Half assed attacks don't count.

Wolverine

01-16-2011, 02:40 AM

@SK: Hinata did not hit Neji. Half assed attacks don't count.

Dude... let's just end it here man. :)

superninja

01-16-2011, 10:55 AM

Ok, whatever. I don't know what can Kabuto do besides edo tensei, since it's Kabuto vs Oro without edo tensei. I think Oro should win since most of Kabuto's strength now comes from edo tensei. Who can dish more damage between the two? They are probably both immune to poison and can regenerate small cuts, and in Oro's case big cuts. Oro has the magical katana so that is a plus for him.

Sensei-Q

01-16-2011, 12:01 PM

but it seems like the shinobi world was 'nutless' to attempt besides Sasuke. Think it, Itachi was a criminal, with a bounty on his head, and nobody was even seeking him out besides dumb assed Orochimaru.

Alrighty then, Neo.

Raikage vs Itachi. What if?

Wolverine

01-16-2011, 12:35 PM

Alrighty then, Neo.

Raikage vs Itachi. What if?

If A is caught in the Tsukiyomi, then he is in big trouble. That alone would screw him up. Secondly, the Sword of Totsuka along with Mirror of Yata make Itachi almost invincible as long as he can stay alive...

Sensei-Q

01-16-2011, 12:41 PM

Would A last any longer than Oro?

Wolverine

01-16-2011, 12:55 PM

Would A last any longer than Oro?

His speed would give him an advantage and keep him alive longer.I don't know of his resistance to Sharingan Genjutsu, but yes, Itachi's Tsukiyomi would be almost too much for him...

superninja

01-16-2011, 03:36 PM

There is a theory that raikage is immune to genjutsu because of raiton armor, the electricity is stimulating his nervous system or something like that so genjutsu might be difficult to pull against him. Secondly, raikage is fast and it's dangerous to attempt to catch him with genjutsu (if it fails you get supercharged fist to the head).
But Itachi would win using amateratsu or Susano probably.
I predict Itachi trying to catch raikage with genjutsu using his clone first, then raikage is all like "genjutsu is useless" and smashes the clone. Then Itachi comes out and says something like "there are all kind of illusions in this world of ours"
and then raikage is all like "ha, you brat! Don't talk so big"
And then Itachi does amateratsu but raikage evades using his superspeed, Itachi loses the sight of raikage and raikage gets behind his back, Itachi creates a kage bunshin to protect his blind spot using his superfast hand seals he has (maybe at the same time he did amateratsu), raikage charges to pwn Itachi but Itachi's clone tips him off so they both jump away in time.
raikage:"ha, you're fast!"
Itachi's clone appears behind raikage's back with a kunai and throws two kunais at him.
raikage:"when did he have the time to make another clone?" Raikage blocks the kunais with his hand.
Raikage: "what?" black flames catch raikages hand
raikage: "so you engulfed one of the kunais with amateratsu?"
raikage:"haaaaaaa!" raikage chops his arm off. raikage goes super charged.
Itachi does amateratsu but raikage evades, raikage smashes all of Itachi's clones. Real Itachi protects himself with Susano. (they were fighting in a closed room, all of the walls are on fire)
Itachi: "I have you cornered now"
Itachi stabs raikage with the sword of Totsuka. Killerbe goes like :"noooooooooo"

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 03:41 PM

Don't want to rain on your parade but scenarios are biased no matter how you put it.

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 03:50 PM

Why do people assume that any given opponent for Itachi is going to be magically immune to the instakilling Totsuka Sword and be able to break through the everything-blocking Yata Mirror? There's a damn reason Itachi wins 99% of his matchups.

superninja

01-16-2011, 04:03 PM

Don't want to rain on your parade but scenarios are biased no matter how you put it.

That is true.

Why do people assume that any given opponent for Itachi is going to be magically immune to the instakilling Totsuka Sword and be able to break through the everything-blocking Yata Mirror? There's a damn reason Itachi wins 99% of his matchups.

Well, it is dangerous for Itachi to use Susano or amateratsu too much and really all raikage needs to do when he sees Susano is move away from it and not let himself get hit with the sword.

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 04:12 PM

Well, it is dangerous for Itachi to use Susano or amateratsu too much and really all raikage needs to do when he sees Susano is move away from it and not let himself get hit with the sword.

That's like saying that current Naruto can't wreck the shit out of 90% of the characters in the series because RSM is dangerous for him to use and they can "just dodge" his Shunshin blitzes. Naruto may be a fag, but he's an overpowered fag.

Dodging a sword that can change its size and shape at will is not even close to easy. And if even the slightest grazing touch can kill you, you really don't have a prayer.

superninja

01-16-2011, 06:36 PM

That's like saying that current Naruto can't wreck the shit out of 90% of the characters in the series because RSM is dangerous for him to use and they can "just dodge" his Shunshin blitzes. Naruto may be a fag, but he's an overpowered fag.

Dodging a sword that can change its size and shape at will is not even close to easy. And if even the slightest grazing touch can kill you, you really don't have a prayer.

I agree that Naruto is an overpowered fag. Kishimoto must have been thinking like "lets give him super strength, lets give him super speed, lets give him improved regeneration, lets give him stone skin, lets give him unlimited chakra, lets give him good combat intelligence, lets give him improved extra sensory perception, and I'll say he is the underdog lmao"

Anyway raikage is also fast, so IF genjutsu doesn't work on him then Itachi would have his hands full.

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 06:44 PM

I agree that Naruto is an overpowered fag. Kishimoto must have been thinking like "lets give him super strength, lets give him super speed, lets give him improved regeneration, lets give him stone skin, lets give him unlimited chakra, lets give him good combat intelligence, lets give him improved extra sensory perception, and I'll say he is the underdog lmao"

Anyway raikage is also fast, so IF genjutsu doesn't work on him then Itachi would have his hands full.

Did you completely ignore the whole "dodging a sword that can change size and shape at will is incredibly hard" thing? Raikage can't touch Itachi thanks to Susano'o, and if he is hit even once he's dead.

ask me anything

01-16-2011, 06:48 PM

There is a theory that raikage is immune to genjutsu because of raiton armor, the electricity is stimulating his nervous system or something like that so genjutsu might be difficult to pull against him.

Against regular genjutsu he's immune, but Tsukuyomi is debatable. It's on a vastly higher level then anything else. I don't know that he would be completely immune from it.

Secondly, raikage is fast and it's dangerous to attempt to catch him with genjutsu (if it fails you get supercharged fist to the head).
But Itachi would win using amateratsu or Susano probably.

Amaterasu and Susanoo would be definite wins. Yata mirror would be devastating to Raikage, since it doesn't just block attacks it actually repels them with equal force. I remember when sasuke tried to charge itachi and his ass flew backwards after he hit the mirror. Given that Raikage would hit it as insanely fast speeds, it should have a devastating backlash against him.

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 06:52 PM

Actually SK, that genjutsu thing only works if you pierce someone with the sword, not if you cut them, so a graze wouldn't instakill him. Though I agree with everything you said.

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 07:02 PM

Actually SK, that genjutsu thing only works if you pierce someone with the sword, not if you cut them, so a graze wouldn't instakill him. Though I agree with everything you said.

The "eternal genjutsu" thing is a legend associated with the sword. The stated reality is that the sword has an incredibly powerful sealing technique on the blade. There's no reason that a specific type of blow would matter for activating a sealing tech.

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 07:38 PM

Yes it does. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo) Read second paragraph.

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 07:41 PM

Yes it does. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo) Read second paragraph.

Bottom Left Panel (http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-392/16/). The blade is enchanted with a powerful sealing technique. A sealing technique that hits on contact would not require a specific type of strike to activate.

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 07:54 PM

In the same panel it states "Anyone and anything it pierces becomes trapped in a blissful dream-like genjutsu for all eternity......or so the legend goes." Own yourself much?

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 07:57 PM

In the same panel it states "Anyone and anything it pierces becomes trapped in a blissful dream-like genjutsu for all eternity......or so the legend goes." Own yourself much?

Piercing is only mentioned in the hearsay legend associated with the sword. The reality is that it has a uber sealing tech on it. Uber sealing tech ain't gonna require a stab just to activate.

If you wanna get real technical, even a "grazing blow" will pierce body tissue. That's what a cut is. It would be plain and simply retarded if the sword's seal only activated by complete impalement.

ask me anything

01-16-2011, 08:02 PM

Bottom Left Panel (http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-392/16/). The blade is enchanted with a powerful sealing technique. A sealing technique that hits on contact would not require a specific type of strike to activate.

THIS
Also if you want to get technical, any sized cut could be considered "piercing" the skin, so that doesn't contradict the manga either.

I honestly wish some of you guys would use common sense every once in a while. What would be the point of a sword that only seals if it stabs the fuck out of you? For 99.9% of the ninja in this manga a massive sword in the gut is a death sentence without any sealing powarz needed. So you see how it would be retarded to expect such an action to only take place if some ridiculous overkill prerequisite is met to begin with. Edit: SK beat me to it. :(

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 08:07 PM

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-16-2011, 08:10 PM

Itachis the man, but Raikage knows all about the MS (even sasanoo now) and wouldnt fall for the same tricks twice which gives him the advantage...

Honestly, with the raikage not mad and being calm and calculating I thin he could win possibly...

Raikage goes supermode and then Itachis just boned because he wont be able to follow his movements and if itachi uses sasanoo for too long it will kill him...

Remember, itachis stamina, power and health r limited cause of his disease... this plus rais infon on the MS almost guarentees him a V IMO...

However, itachi without the disease would murder the raikage and anyone else!!

Healthy itachi would have the chakra to strategically take raikage out by taking away his strength (super speed)..

: itachi would amaterasu a circles around him and the raikage cutting off freedom of movement and trapping the raikage between him (sasanoo with super sword) and black killer flame wall. Then slowly draw the flames inward as the raikage dodges itachis sword attacks without him noticing until the raikage is right up against sasanoo and has nowhere to run, but into the sword of totsuka or amaterasu flames....

Itachis badass like that^^^^

Granted itachi should be able to do that even with his disease, but using that much chakra should kill him IMO which would make it a draw...

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 08:10 PM

Orochimaru was pierced and got sealed. When Susanoo cut off some of the snake's heads, did they get sealed? No. It wasn't until after he pierced Orochimaru. I can't believe you're even arguing this. /facepalm.

http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-392/13/

The seal isn't going to work on soulless snakes generated from Oro's body. Only hitting Oro himself is going to affect him. Oro's body wasn't exposed until he, you know, exposed it.

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 08:17 PM

Did you miss the part where it stated "Anyone and Anything it pierces is sealed?" Seriously just stop it's getting sad now. I hope you're trolling otherwise goddamn.

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 09:00 PM

Did you miss the part where it stated "Anyone and Anything it pierces is sealed?" Seriously just stop it's getting sad now. I hope you're trolling otherwise goddamn.

Considering that that is once again part of the Legend, rather than the stated fact, would you like to explain how it could send something inanimate and soulless, like a pot or something, into an "eternal blissful dream"? Oro's snakes are just as soulless. Oro's true body, the part that his soul occupies, is JUST the human form/the snakey thing. Not any of the white snake techniques that grow snakes out of his body.

By your logic, Sasuke would have been sealed too just because his body was connected to Oro's hugeass mass of snake. EDIT: God this sounds so wrong...

Basically, the Totsuka sword would have to hit your actual body, but it doesn't need to fucking impale you just to seal you. Hitting clothes or something wouldn't have an effect.

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 09:35 PM

AOTKorby

01-16-2011, 09:59 PM

Orochimaru's soul is seperate from Sasuke's. That's why both of them weren't sealed. Since these soul less creatures were A PART OF OROCHIMARU they were sealed too, simple. The inanimate object still falls into the category of ANYTHING so it would be sealed in the jar but wouldn't undergo genjutsu since it has no senses. So it would still be sealed but not sealed under a genjutsu but rather the jar. It does need to impale you to seal you in genjutsu, can you read? Seriously it was told in legend and legend makes it true in this manga. Anything the legend says it can do, it can do. The Yata mirror reflects all fucking attacks, right? The Rinnegan was a myth and look what happened, it was real in the manga. All the mystical faggy weapons are legends and do exactly what the legend states it can. Legend=true, in the manga. Goddamn, you must be trolling.

So what you're saying is that you can freely pick and choose what parts of the "legend" must be true in order to prove your point? "OH, THE WHOLE GENJUTSU THING DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN, BUT THE SEAL STILL FUNCTIONS EXACTLY LIKE THE LEGEND SAYS IT DOES!!!"

Legend and Hearsay do not equal true. "Legend" has it that the Sharingan came from the Byakugan. Well that's pretty much dead now isn't it? "Legend" says that Madara was killed fighting Hashirama. "Hearsay" had that the Rinnegan was a genetic fluke, yeah fucking right.

The snakes were created from Oro's body. They did not have any part of Oro's soul in them. Oro's soul had yet to separate from Sasuke's body when Itachi was cutting the heads off. Once Oro separated himself from Sasuke, he got hit with the Totsuka and got sealed. The snakes are like the "clothes" as I stated earlier. They're on Oro's body, but they aren't truly connected to it by soul. They're just generated by White Snake techniques. When Oro was hit, HIS soul was sealed, and the Snakes generated from him HAD no soul, which meant that nothing but Oro's White Snake tech (which was gone) tethered them to reality. So they got sealed too.

Seriously, do you understand what you're arguing? You're saying that only a stab can activate the Totsuka's seal. That's just stupid, and it contradicts the meaning of pierce (piercing the skin happens from any kind of cut). Your argument is inherently stupid. It is stupid by its very foundation.

ninjalostboy95

01-16-2011, 10:26 PM

It was rumored Byakugan came from sharingan. It was thought Madara died but it wasn't true. Rinnegan was an actual legend and turned out to be true. Did you understand what I told you? I said all the mystical weapons can do what legend says it can do. Which is true. Orochimaru's snakes came from his body, correct? So of course they would be sealed with him. Common sense. You seem to be fitting in your own definitions which is stupid. The manga specifically states that it can seal anyone and anything it pierces. The snakes fall under the any-fucking-thing category. The sword pierced Orochimaru, if it could be done anyway, why not just scrape or cut him? Why not just chop through the snakes and Orochimaru in one sweep and get it over with instead of stabbing him? You see how stupid your argument is? Pierce is in reference to the damn sword. When it pierces the target you stab the damn target. I said the object would be sealed in the jar but wouldn't be in a genjutsu because it's senseless. Speculation though.

k-lai

01-17-2011, 01:54 AM

Totally agree with u on that itachi

superninja

01-17-2011, 07:01 AM

Tien from DBZ transplanted rinegan, sharingan, and byakugan (he has three eyes) vs Goku? Would he be able to beat him now?

Wolverine

01-17-2011, 10:27 AM

Tien from DBZ transplanted rinegan, sharingan, and byakugan (he has three eyes) vs Goku? Would he be able to beat him now?

No.

Because a Super Saiyan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any shit from Naruto.

EDIT: Superninja... never make such a post again, lest you want to lose respect in everyone's eyes...

superninja

01-17-2011, 01:32 PM

No.

Because a Super Saiyan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any shit from Naruto.

EDIT: Superninja... never make such a post again, lest you want to lose respect in everyone's eyes...

I thought it was cool idea. Oh well.

Vengeance

01-18-2011, 09:35 AM

Itachi vs Kirabi (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c415/3.html). Any questions?

AOTKorby

01-18-2011, 02:20 PM

Only question: do they know about each others' abilities?

If "yes", I'd say 5.5-4.5 Itachi, if "no" I'd say 8-2 Itachi.

superninja

01-18-2011, 03:48 PM

Itachi all the way.
Here, instead of studying I will describe how the fight goes:

First Itachi tries to catch Killerbee in his genjutsu (not tsukuyomi). Killerbee's tailed beast gets him out of genjutsu but Killerbee pretends to be affected. Then Killerbee throws his lightning imbued pencil at Itachi as a surprise attack. Itachi evades. Then they have the formal introduction "host of the 8tailed demon and a poet, Killerbee", "my name is of no consequence to you (Itachi)". Then they exchange in a taijutsu fight where Killerbee draws his 8 blades and Itachi his kunai. When Killerbee and Itachi collide, Itachi creates two clones to block Killerbees blades that are attacking him from the sides and he blocks the blades that are coming directly at him. Killerbee channels lightning into blades and they go through the clones and Itachi. But that was just an illusion as Itachi managed to cast tsukuyomi before Killerbee finished his swing. A thousand Itachis appear and one of them says: "in this illusion I control the time so it is impossible to break".
That is how I give victory to Itachi.

AOTKorby

01-18-2011, 07:18 PM

Tsukuyomi would be the only MS technique Itachi has which couldn't work on KB. A bijuu sealed in a Jink is the only thing that can release (not break) Tsukuyomi. KB has that.

The reason I gave Itachi the edge in the "doesn't know" is because he can hit KB with Amaterasu and the bullshittingly powerful Totsuka Sword. The reason I gave him the edge in the "knows" is because, while Amaterasu wouldn't work, he'd still have the bullshittingly powerful Totsuka Sword.

superninja

01-19-2011, 07:20 AM

Tsukuyomi on Itachi's lvl is very debatable since his tsukuyomi controls time. That means that the tailed demon inside Killerbee has some control over time so he can get Killerbee out, or that the tailed demon shares Killerbee's illusion. Even then, there is probably a time that is needed to break genjutsu. Since Itachi can control time, he can prolong his jutsu indefinitely if you know what I mean. But ok, lets say tsukuyomi wouldn't work.

I think Itachi's real strength doesn't necessarily lie in his overpowered MS jutsus like tsukuyomi, amateratsu and Susano with the magic sword and shield. Those jutsus are one hit wonders capable of beating anyone though so they help. Itachi's real power comes from the fact that he has mastered the basics, his hand seals and his speed of activating jutsus is unprecedented. He always thinks about his steps while he is fighting. When you combine that with one hit k.o moves he has then Itachi is really much stronger than even kage lvl shinobis. He could, imo, beat all the present kages, Kabuto (without edo tensei) and Tobi is questionable (but probably him also).

Numinous

01-19-2011, 07:57 AM

superninja

01-19-2011, 09:16 AM

-.-'

After all the time people spent telling KYF that none of the MS techniques are T/S jutsu (except Kamui) 5 months ago, and you didn't get the memo?

Hi Numinous :)

Anyway Itachi makes one second into two days in his illusion, so I don't know what to call that. Lets say Killerbee can't break that illusion by himself and he needs help from his animal friend. The 8tails bull sends his chakra to break genjutsu, well by the time all of this happens Itachi has spent 2 days torturing Killerbee or something like that. This is just a guess on my part though.

Obviously what happens is that Itachi takes his soul and the soul of his victim to another place, another dimension where time moves differently. It's more than a simple illusion imo.

I am saying that because thoughts and senses have a certain speed to them, in one second it is impossible to experience 2 days of something.

PS: I got this idea partially because I read some of your manga scripts where you have the human world and demon world and in demon world they count their years differently. I haven't read all of it yet I just browsed through. So this is your idea maybe.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 11:40 AM

Hi Numinous :)

Anyway Itachi makes one second into two days in his illusion, so I don't know what to call that.

It's called altering the perception of time of the victim of Tsukuyomi.

Lets say Killerbee can't break that illusion by himself and he needs help from his animal friend. The 8tails bull sends his chakra to break genjutsu, well by the time all of this happens Itachi has spent 2 days torturing Killerbee or something like that. This is just a guess on my part though. Errr... no. Killer Bee would think he was tortured 2 days, but he was only mind-raped for a couple of seconds.

Obviously what happens is that Itachi takes his soul and the soul of his victim to another place, another dimension where time moves differently. It's more than a simple illusion imo.What the...

Tsukuyomi=Genjutsu. Simple as that. The reason why it's so famous is because it's the paragon of Genjutsu, it has no T/S aspect to it.

I am saying that because thoughts and senses have a certain speed to them, in one second it is impossible to experience 2 days of something.Yes, it is, if the perception of time of the victim is altered enough to do so. And even in real life, that can happen (due to time dilatation).

PS: I got this idea partially because I read some of your manga scripts where you have the human world and demon world and in demon world they count their years differently. I haven't read all of it yet I just browsed through. So this is your idea maybe.Just a clarification about the time difference: 1 second on Europa is VERY close to 1 second on Earth. The reason why they have different time parameters is because they have different references.

Humans have the rotational period (0,997 d) and the orbital period (365,256 d) of Earth as references, that's why we have 365 days per year and 366 on leap years (1 in every 4) to correct the difference left by the slight inaccuracy of the Sumerian duodecimal system of counting time: 60 seconds (12*5) per minute, 60 minutes per hour, 24 hours (12*2) per day.

Now things are VERY different for someone who would live in Europa: Europa is tidally locked to Jupiter, so rotational and orbital periods are the same (3,551 d), so I needed something else to rely on. And since Europa is a Juvian moon, I had to take Jupiter's orbital period (4 331,572 d). And, most importantly, make it so that a device like a clock would be as simple as possible.

Math ahead:

If we consider a rotational period of Europa as a day and the orbital period of Jupiter as an year:

Days per year: 4331,572/3,511 = 1219,817 days.

Since the result is very easily associated with 12, I made 12 months per year.

Days per month: 1219,817/12 = 101,65 days.

So rounding it up below, it's 101 days per month, up to 1212 days per year. But then you see there's a discrepancy between the calendar and the math, so I made the month of Dinah, which 86 days every leap year (1 in 12), so the discrepancy would be only 1 day per 137 years (1624 human years). Not as perfect as I wanted, but passable.

Now for days... it was a little tricky. Europa's rotational period is exactly 306 806 seconds, so the best I could get was the 10:10:55:55 time units (which translate to 302 500 Europa seconds). Not exactly the same, as obvious, but the difference between 1 Earth second and 1 Europa second is slim (1 Europa second=1,014 Earth seconds).

So, you see, although the calendar and time unites are different, the passage of time is practically the same.

Edit: Forgot to thank you for reading :)

stubborn_d0nkey

01-19-2011, 11:48 AM

nice to see that you've done your research.
I might play around with the numbers to see if i could make a better system (unless you think you couldn't change the system)

Numinous

01-19-2011, 12:05 PM

nice to see that you've done your research.
I might play around with the numbers to see if i could make a better system (unless you think you couldn't change the system)

I'd be appreciative if you came up with more accurate system, but changing it or not depends on how different it is from mine, because days and months already have assigned names.

stubborn_d0nkey

01-19-2011, 12:56 PM

what are the names of the days and months (maybe theyll make me inspired :b)

what did you mean by "so I made the month of Dinah, which 86 days every leap year"? you shorten it to 86?

oh and, how important is similarity to our system?

is the first 10 in 10:10:55:55 thee number of days in a week, or did you add some new unit?

if its not weeks and similarity in system is more important than similarity in the length of a second then you could use:

24:115:115 at least it has 24 hours :b

if accuracy of the second is important i had a system (forgot it) that had ~304k seconds

will look more at the calendar, but you could do a similar knuckle counting system as we have here, with the days in the months going like

102 101 102 101 102 101 102 102 101 102 101 102

superninja

01-19-2011, 01:01 PM

omg, stop with the numbers, I don't like the numbers.
But seriously, I am not very good at math or science, I thought the idea of the dimension with it's own time that is separate from our world is a cool one. Numinous, you are writing about demons and fantastical beings so you might as well make them live in a dimension with it's own time and not make it a Jupiter's moon. (that way that girl from middle ages can meet our contemporary "heroes" coz she spent some time in the demon world).

Back to tsukuyomi, I think Itachi said "in this dimension I control time" so even he called it a different dimension and not simply an illusion. The signal from nerves to brain takes time, the amount of thoughts we generate in a second probably also has a limit. There is no way Kakashi or Sasuke could experience two days in a second, they were probably functioning normally during that time with their thinking and everything. I hope Kishimoto reads this and says "tsukuyomi is a space time jutsu fuckers!".

stubborn_d0nkey

01-19-2011, 01:22 PM

he wont, because it isnt :P

oh yeah, try staring at a clock with no second hand for an hour, and tell me time perception wont fuck with you.

also, its not t/s. the victims body stays put. also him t/sing there souls to a different dimension doesnt make much sense. why? well, if he can put the soul in another dimension, why bring it back? just leave it there- tsukuyomi would be an instant ohko.

@num, i, for myself, havent excluded the possibility of amateratsu being t/s. its not likely, but its possible, and slightly hinted at.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-19-2011, 01:55 PM

-.-'

After all the time people spent telling KYF that none of the MS techniques are T/S jutsu (except Kamui) 5 months ago, and you didn't get the memo?

Bullshat captain delusional. Are u kishi?? Didnt think so... now keep ur subjectively bias opinions what they are, OPINIONS, not FACTS:)

Tsukuyomi Controlling time in phenomenological reality of physical reality makes no difference... It manipulation of Time and thats all that matters..

Amaterasu which summons black flames from nowhere onto the target isnt even freaking debatable except to the subjectively dense of you...

Kamui punches a hole in space so obvious T/S jutsu...

and sasanoo is really the only debatable one of them all... Its summoned from wherever the hell it exists, but is made up of the users chakra. Its summoned which would make it an obvious T/S jutsu, but is made up of the users chakra, not its own. So its close enough IMO... Its an entity separate of the user like the kyuubi, but made of the users chakra.... Its tricky!

So Technically all are forms of T/S jutu like amaterasu is a elemental T/S ninjutsu and tsukuyomi is a T/S genjutsu... ect ect.

BOT: Killer bee vs itachi?

Killer bees bijuu cant stop KB from being mind raped by tsukuyomi for 3 days straight cause tsukuyomi would only attack KB, not his bijuu which is separate from him and would have no clue anythings wrong until KB was already back from tsukuyomi and about to collapse, fight over!!!!

kael03

01-19-2011, 01:59 PM

Tsukuyomi Controlling time in phenomenological reality of physical reality makes no difference... It manipulation of Time and thats all that matters..

It alters the PERCEPTION of Time, not time itself. Time will continue to flow at the normal rate for the person affected by Tsukuyomi and those around that victim. The victim will perceive time flowing at a different rate. Tsukuyomi is NOT a T/S jutsu because it does NOT alter time itself, nor does it alter space since everything it does is in the victim's mind.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 02:01 PM

what are the names of the days and months (maybe theyll make me inspired :b)

I named the days after the Semitic alphabet (22 letters= 22 days in a week) but that can easily be changed, since it's rarely mentioned. The months are named after the sons of Jacob (they're 12 more Dinah, the odd daughter), so...

what did you mean by "so I made the month of Dinah, which 86 days every leap year"? you shorten it to 86?
No, I added a 13th month every 12 years.

oh and, how important is similarity to our system?
It depends. The structure day-month-year and months having similar number of days is essential. A week span can vary, since I don't care that much for it. Now for daily time units, as long as 1 clock can work practically without people having to extrapolate a lot (that's why for me 10:10:55:55 was good, since all of them are multiple of 5, like our 24:60:60 is based on 12).

is the first 10 in 10:10:55:55 thee number of days in a week, or did you add some new unit?New unit. It's Juvian Moon:Hour:Minute:Second. The first is inspired by the rotational period of Jupiter, but for the sake of clock practicallity, it is not the same (9,925 h of rotational period vs 8,402 h of a Juvian Moon).

if its not weeks and similarity in system is more important than similarity in the length of a second then you could use:

24:115:115 at least it has 24 hours :bAgain, clock practicality is priority. That system would require 2 independent systems, since 24 has no common divisor with 115.

will look more at the calendar, but you could do a similar knuckle counting system as we have here, with the days in the months going like

102 101 102 101 102 101 102 102 101 102 101 102That'd make 4 extra days on leap years (1 in 5). Very good for leap year simplicity, but worst for accuracy, since it would be 1 day off every 60 years vs 1 day off every 1644 years I had (I forgot to do all the math and was stuck on 137 years, silly me).

omg, stop with the numbers, I don't like the numbers.
But seriously, I am not very good at math or science, I thought the idea of the dimension with it's own time that is separate from our world is a cool one. Numinous, you are writing about demons and fantastical beings so you might as well make them live in a dimension with it's own time and not make it a Jupiter's moon. (that way that girl from middle ages can meet our contemporary "heroes" coz she spent some time in the demon world).4095 a.L =/= 2009 (or 1481, for that matter). Due to the nature of the Gate of Alecto (traveling through time), the current events on Europa are NOT simultaneous to the events on Earth. They're only presented at the same pace for narrative sake.

@num, i, for myself, havent excluded the possibility of amateratsu being t/s. its not likely, but its possible, and slightly hinted at. I don't think it's a T/S by the principle of Occam's Razor, but I know why people might interpret it that way.

EDIT:

@ KYF, STFU.
Kamui punches a hole in space so obvious T/S jutsu...After all the time people spent telling KYF that none of the MS techniques are T/S jutsu (except Kamui) 5 months ago, and you didn't get the memo?

And...

Bullshat captain delusional. Are u kishi?? Didnt think so... now keep ur subjectively bias opinions what they are, OPINIONS, not FACTS:)

Projection much?

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-19-2011, 02:11 PM

It alters the PERCEPTION of Time, not time itself. Time will continue to flow at the normal rate for the person affected by Tsukuyomi and those around that victim. The victim will perceive time flowing at a different rate. Tsukuyomi is NOT a T/S jutsu because it does NOT alter time itself, nor does it alter space since everything it does is in the victim's mind.

It does not control time, it controls time??? Lol!!

All ur doing is breaking down what happens in phenomenological reality while just calling physical realties time, TIME... which is asinine!!!

In physical reality all that happens is ur sensory organs gather info and u put it together into a perception of what u think is going on... u see something change, feel as though time has passed (awareness of said change) or see a clock show a different number then before... Basically all u can do to try and grasp reality in the physical sense.

And physical reality wouldnt exist without the consciousness of phenomenological reality to be aware of time and change....

Now quit calling a potatoe a Patatto and accept tsukuyomi as a T/S genjutsu because thats what it is...

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-19-2011, 02:15 PM

@ KYF, STFU.

And...

Projection much?

Damn numi, thats^^^ just weeeeeaaak!!

Im not the one going around trying to canonize my opinion lol... Im projecting some Enlightenment on to the blind:)

kael03

01-19-2011, 02:22 PM

It does not control time, it controls time??? Lol!!

I did not say that. I said it controls the perception of time. Time is a physical constant in reality. It flows at a constant pace (near as physicists can tell) unless something, like a black hole, alters it.

All ur doing is breaking down what happens in phenomenological reality while just calling physical realties time, TIME... which is asinine!!!

Your posts are asinine. I'll say it again. Time is a constant. It flows at a constant rate regardless of how we measure it.

In physical reality all that happens is ur sensory organs gather info and u put it together into a perception of what u think is going on... u see something change, feel as though time has passed (awareness of said change) or see a clock show a different number then before... Basically all u can do to try and grasp reality in the physical sense.

Perception of an event =/= that event. I can do nothing, time will seemingly pass more slowly for me. Or I could be doing something and time will seemingly pass faster. I'm not altering the rate time flows for me, it's purely a matter of perception. Exactly what Tsukuyomi does. It alters the victim's PERCEPTION of Time rather than Time itself.

And physical reality wouldnt exist without the consciousness of phenomenological reality to be aware of time and change....

Really? We make physical reality happen by being aware of it? If you were gone, physical reality would still exist.

Now quit calling a potatoe a Patatto and accept tsukuyomi as a T/S genjutsu because thats what it is...

It's not a T/S genjutsu. It's a powerful genjutsu that alters one's perception of the flow of time to royally mind fuck someone in about a second. There is no altering of the flow of time other than how someone perceives it.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 02:28 PM

And physical reality wouldnt exist without the consciousness of phenomenological reality to be aware of time and change.... Did KYF just say that physical reality wouldn't exist without us and our perception of it? I've heard many things from anthropocentrism, but this takes the cake any day.

Im not the one going around trying to canonize my opinion lol... Im projecting some Enlightenment on to the blind:)

Err... you got this situation backwards, dimwit.

superninja

01-19-2011, 02:35 PM

also, its not t/s. the victims body stays put. also him t/sing there souls to a different dimension doesnt make much sense. why? well, if he can put the soul in another dimension, why bring it back? just leave it there- tsukuyomi would be an instant ohko.

Ok, you got me there. I thought it sounds cool, drag someone's soul into another dimension.

But seriously Numinous and kal el, your "perception of time" doesn't cut it. I already explained why.

kael03

01-19-2011, 02:53 PM

Ok, you got me there. I thought it sounds cool, drag someone's soul into another dimension.

But seriously Numinous and kal el, your "perception of time" doesn't cut it. I already explained why.

You mean the whole dimension thing? It's not an alternate dimension. Everything that happens during Tsukuyomi happens in the victim's mind. There's no manipulation of the Space/Time barrier here. It's an illusion placed on the victim to make them think that time is passing at the rate Itachi wants them to think. He's not actually manipulating time (as I explained to KYF). He's manipulating his target's perception of the passing of time to mind fuck them.

Also, Kal el? WTF? I'm not Superman.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 02:58 PM

But seriously Numinous and kal el, your "perception of time" doesn't cut it. I already explained why.

That's because you are putting an arbitrary limit on how stretched the perception of time can be. Electrical signals between the sensory organs and the brain occur in less than a milisecond, and there are millions of nerves between them, so if the brain was forced to send as many signals as possible to the sensory organs, the perception of time would be far more slower (I don't know the possible ratio between real time and apparent time with the brain's at full speed, but Tsukuyomi's potential can't be far off)

If you ask "so why doesn't our brain do that normally", it's because it would require a LOT of metabolic energy directed only to the brain and sensory organs to keep up with such a process, which is probably why Kakashi fainted after being victim of it.

superninja

01-19-2011, 03:58 PM

That's because you are putting an arbitrary limit on how stretched the perception of time can be. Electrical signals between the sensory organs and the brain occur in less than a milisecond, and there are millions of nerves between them, so if the brain was forced to send as many signals as possible to the sensory organs, the perception of time would be far more slower (I don't know the possible ratio between real time and apparent time with the brain's at full speed, but Tsukuyomi's potential can't be far off)

If you ask "so why doesn't our brain do that normally", it's because it would require a LOT of metabolic energy directed only to the brain and sensory organs to keep up with such a process, which is probably why Kakashi fainted after being victim of it.

I am putting an arbitrary limit. We have a rate at which our thoughts occur and come to our consciousness. 1 second to 48 hours, that is 172 800 times faster than a normal brain would function. That is, in my opinion, impossible.

AOTKorby

01-19-2011, 04:02 PM

superninja

01-19-2011, 04:11 PM

Ninja. Magic.

Well, yeah. But in that case I could be right about Itachi transporting his and the other guys mind into a dimension where time flows differently, one second in our world would be 5 days in that dimension. It's a theory of relativity (I don't understand the theory but I am using it since it says similar stuff).

Now Numinous will read a book about theory of relativity and start writing the formulas down lmao. Don't try, no one can understand that shit.

Besides what is more probable, that Kakashi's mind worked 170 000 times faster than normal so he could experience 48 hours, or that Itachi transported his mind into another dimension? I have the science on my side.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 04:14 PM

I am putting an arbitrary limit. We have a rate at which our thoughts occur and come to our consciousness. 1 second to 48 hours, that is 172 800 times faster than a normal brain would function. That is, in my opinion, impossible.

Again, you are putting an arbitrary limit to arbitrary terms. You were the one who came up with "2 days in 1 second", while the manga says "3 days in a moment", and doesn't specify how long that moment was. Also, "172 800 times faster than a normal brain would function"? The brain doesn't have a default perception of 1 second, it can change wildly depending on what the sensory organs are sending to the brain.

Well, yeah. But in that case I could be right about Itachi transporting his and the other guys mind into a dimension where time flows differently, one second in our world would be 5 days in that dimension. It's a theory of relativity (I don't understand the theory but I am using it since it says similar stuff). (I don't understand the theory but I am using it since it says similar stuff).

If you don't know what it means, it's better not use it or you're pulling a KYF.

Time dilatation depends on the velocity and/or gravity of the object/environment.And for such a stark difference in time dilatation, Tsukuyomi's hypothesized dimension would be in cosmic body moving absurdly close to the speed of light or with a huge gravity force that would make Kakashi's body crush due to his own weight.

Besides what is more probable, that Kakashi's mind worked 170 000 times faster than normal so he could experience 48 hours, or that Itachi transported his mind into another dimension? I have the science on my side.

Occam's Razor says that is more probable to modify the perception of time 170 000 times faster than Kakashi surviving 3 days in Tsukuyomi's dimension. I have the science on my side.

AOTKorby

01-19-2011, 04:21 PM

Well, yeah. But in that case I could be right about Itachi transporting his and the other guys mind into a dimension where time flows differently, one second in our world would be 5 days in that dimension. It's a theory of relativity (I don't understand the theory but I am using it since it says similar stuff).

Now Numinous will read a book about theory of relativity and start writing the formulas down lmao. Don't try, no one can understand that shit.

Besides what is more probable, that Kakashi's mind worked 170 000 times faster than normal so he could experience 48 hours, or that Itachi transported his mind into another dimension? I have the science on my side.

What, are you trying to argue that Num's argument is somehow invalid because you don't know enough about shit to know what the fuck he's saying?

Which is more likely? Given that Tsukuyomi CONTROLS THE MIND, AS IT IS A GENJUTSU, the former is infinitely more likely. It ever occur to you that the sheer stress that Tsukuyomi puts the mind under, in tandem with the perceived pain it causes the victim to feel, IS WHAT CAUSES THE MENTAL BREAKDOWN?

The passage of time is an entirely perceived trait, and the speed at which times passes is NOT BASED ON "HOW HARD YOUR BRAIN IS WORKING". You know how time seems to slow to a crawl when you're bored as fuck or put in a situation that would cause an adrenaline rush? You know how time seems to go so much faster when you aren't paying attention to it? Seconds aren't somehow changing in length, they just seem to last a different amount of time because of perception. Tsukuyomi controls that perception of time.

For your claim that "the brain only goes so fast...", no. Conscious thought may seem to "take time", but subconscious brain activity is damn-near-instant

superninja

01-19-2011, 05:00 PM

SeninKorby, why are you so aggressive, you gonna make me cry. "I don't know the shit I'm talking about", well as Socrates once said "I never claimed to know".

Listen to this, the nerve impulses have a speed of travel, that speed is determined. I don't know what that speed is and I am too lazy to google it, but in one second you have a limited amount of nerve impulses because that speed is limited. You won't be able to fit three days of nerve impulses into one second because of physical limitations.

And you said I don't know what I'm talking about. Well compared to people that study I sure as hell don't, but the little I know I will say. And repeat again and again and again.

AOTKorby

01-19-2011, 05:31 PM

SeninKorby, why are you so aggressive, you gonna make me cry. "I don't know the shit I'm talking about", well as Socrates once said "I never claimed to know".

Socrates' methods were also the same ones that gave us the Geocentric theory. The one that was completely wrong. Philosophy and logic are fine and dandy, but without legitimate facts, proving a point is a guessing game, rather than a science.

Listen to this, the nerve impulses have a speed of travel, that speed is determined. I don't know what that speed is and I am too lazy to google it, but in one second you have a limited amount of nerve impulses because that speed is limited. You won't be able to fit three days of nerve impulses into one second because of physical limitations.

That's called reflexes. You know how fast you can cause parts of your body very far away from the brain to do something just by nerve impulse? Really. Effing. Fast. Do you understand just how fast electrical impulses are? Literally as fast as lightning. You think lightning couldn't strike thousands upon thousands of times in a second (without factoring in the sheer amount of static electricity necessary)?

And you said I don't know what I'm talking about. Well compared to people that study I sure as hell don't, but the little I know I will say. And repeat again and again and again.

That's not an admirable trait. That's stubbornness. That's refusing to acknowledge fact. That's refusing to listen to reason.

superninja

01-19-2011, 05:59 PM

That's called reflexes. You know how fast you can cause parts of your body very far away from the brain to do something just by nerve impulse? Really. Effing. Fast. Do you understand just how fast electrical impulses are? Literally as fast as lightning. You think lightning couldn't strike thousands upon thousands of times in a second (without factoring in the sheer amount of static electricity necessary)?

Nice try. Two nerve cells are not directly connected so the electrical impulse doesn't travel as fast, they have to send messenger molecules to signal the next nerve cell in line. That takes time. Polarizing and depolarizing of the nerve cells takes time.

But it's better for us not to talk about science coz we are no experts. Numinous might show up and humiliate the both of us lol. She is like that, she likes science. I brought manga evidence instead - http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-17/naruto/chapter-142.html

Itachi calls it a "world". It's a different dimension all right?

kael03

01-19-2011, 06:04 PM

Itachi calls it a "world". It's a different dimension all right?

It's an illusory world in which Itachi reigns supreme. You have to remember that Tsukuyomi is a GENJUTSU. It's all an ILLUSION. It's not real and, therefore, it doesn't affect space/time. It affects how one perceives the flow of time. Hence why in the illusion, 3 days pass, but outside the illusion there's a passage of about a second. Kakashi was made to perceive the passage of 3 days while under an illusion that controls all of the senses.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 06:14 PM

Listen to this, the nerve impulses have a speed of travel, that speed is determined. I don't know what that speed is and I am too lazy to google it, but in one second you have a limited amount of nerve impulses because that speed is limited. You won't be able to fit three days of nerve impulses into one second because of physical limitations.

Nice try. Two nerve cells are not directly connected so the electrical impulse doesn't travel as fast, they have to send messenger molecules to signal the next nerve cell in line. That takes time. Polarizing and depolarizing of the nerve cells takes time.

Nervous signals last a few milliseconds.
Synaptic lag AND action potential only lasts between 0.2 and 1 milliseconds.
Neurons can handle more than one nervous signal at a given time due to the saltatory nature of signal conduction. And the longer the neuron is, the more signals it can handle at a given time. Of course neurons usually don't conduct as many signals as they can.
Each nerve has millions of neurons, which adds up to a few billions if you only count the sensory organs and sensory parts of the brain, which are relevant to Tsukuyomi. And considering that a human has trillions of neurons, if one was to direct the signals only to the relevant parts for a couple of seconds and intensifies the number of signals, the perception of time would be incredibly stretched.

She is like that, she likes science.

Holy Mother of all Revelations, I grew a vagina and didn't know about it!

Itachi calls it a "world". It's a different dimension all right?

And the metaphor flew right above your head.

ask me anything

01-19-2011, 06:26 PM

Goddamn why did this topic have to be brought up again. This is like the 10th time, already. I'm ending this shit now.

Tsukuyomi is NOT a T/S jutsu. Everyone that agrees, yaaaah. Everyone that doesn't boooooo!!!!!

Tsukuyomi is not set in some sort of alternate dimension. It's in the mind. It's basically nothing more then a dream state. Here's a fun fact. A dream that feels like it lasts for hours is actually only a few minutes in reality. It's time distortion bitches. Genjutsu works by affecting the mind. Do I have to draw you picture or can you connect the strings yourself??? Goddamn.

stubborn_d0nkey

01-19-2011, 06:35 PM

I named the days after the Semitic alphabet (22 letters= 22 days in a week) but that can easily be changed, since it's rarely mentioned. The months are named after the sons of Jacob (they're 12 more Dinah, the odd daughter), so...

No, I added a 13th month every 12 years.

It depends. The structure day-month-year and months having similar number of days is essential. A week span can vary, since I don't care that much for it. Now for daily time units, as long as 1 clock can work practically without people having to extrapolate a lot (that's why for me 10:10:55:55 was good, since all of them are multiple of 5, like our 24:60:60 is based on 12).

New unit. It's Juvian Moon:Hour:Minute:Second. The first is inspired by the rotational period of Jupiter, but for the sake of clock practicallity, it is not the same (9,925 h of rotational period vs 8,402 h of a Juvian Moon).

Again, clock practicality is priority. That system would require 2 independent systems, since 24 has no common divisor with 115.

That'd make 4 extra days on leap years (1 in 5). Very good for leap year simplicity, but worst for accuracy, since it would be 1 day off every 60 years vs 1 day off every 1644 years I had (I forgot to do all the math and was stuck on 137 years, silly me).

ok, just popping out some ideas. didnt really get that much into the numbers (didnt have paper by me, math without paper doesnt just feel right) will dive into it when i am able to (probably tomorrow). i pretty much got a feeling for what you are looking for now so it will be easier

if you want added accuracy you could always do what we do, add leap leap years (when a year that should be a leap year isn't a leap year). actually, that wouldnt work that well, since a leap year on europa doesnt add one day.

well, ill look into it more tomorrow (a bit tonight also).

edit: would to wouldn't

Numinous

01-19-2011, 07:56 PM

ok, just popping out some ideas. didnt really get that much into the numbers (didnt have paper by me, math without paper doesnt just feel right) will dive into it when i am able to (probably tomorrow). i pretty much got a feeling for what you are looking for now so it will be easier

if you want added accuracy you could always do what we do, add leap leap years (when a year that should be a leap year isn't a leap year). actually, that would work that well, since a leap year on europa doesnt add one day.

well, ill look into it more tomorrow (a bit tonight also).

Using your previous module of 4 days every 5 years and adding the non-leap year on every 60th year, it'd be 1 day off every 1200 years.

Now, if I use my module and make every 1644th year a non-leap year instead on a leap one, that would make 1 day off every 531 012 years (6,3 million human years), which by me is pretty good (knowing that the Gregorian Calendar is 1 day off every 8000 years). I guess having the oddity of an extra month popping up now and then pays off greatly in accuracy in the long run.

Oh and thanks for doing this, it's nice to have someone helping in this kind of matters that, although seemingly irrelevant to a normal plot of a manga, it has its impact.

stubborn_d0nkey

01-19-2011, 08:04 PM

Using your previous module of 4 days every 5 years and adding the non-leap year on every 60th year, it'd be 1 day off every 1200 years.

Now, if I use my module and make every 1644th year a non-leap year instead on a leap one, that would make 1 day off every 531 012 years, which by me pretty good (knowing that the Gregorian Calendar is 1 day off every 8000 years). I guess having the oddity of an extra month popping up now and then pays off greatly in accuracy in the long run.

Oh and thanks for doing this, it's nice to have someone helping in this kind of matters that, although seemingly irrelevant to a normal plot of a manga, it has its impact.

no problem, if you any kind of similar help (math/physics) let me know, ill help if i can.

just a suggestion, why not make every 1200th year a leap year. yeah it is kinda more complicated but the numbers are nice, and no added month.
well its your choice, you could continue that pattern of leaping as far as you'd like if youd really like supreme accuracy.

also, you should take into account the lifespan of europaens, since how it could/should influence how much accuracy you "need".

superninja

01-19-2011, 08:25 PM

Nervous signals last a few milliseconds.
Synaptic lag AND action potential only lasts between 0.2 and 1 milliseconds.
Neurons can handle more than one nervous signal at a given time due to the saltatory nature of signal conduction. And the longer the neuron is, the more signals it can handle at a given time. Of course neurons usually don't conduct as many signals as they can.
Each nerve has millions of neurons, which adds up to a few billions if you only count the sensory organs and sensory parts of the brain, which are relevant to Tsukuyomi. And considering that a human has trillions of neurons, if one was to direct the signals only to the relevant parts for a couple of seconds and intensifies the number of signals, the perception of time would be incredibly stretched.

Holy Mother of all Revelations, I grew a vagina and didn't know about it!

And the metaphor flew right above your head.

One millisecond is a 1000th part of the second..... 72 hours is 259 200 times more than one second. So you are saying that since there are a lot of neurons the stimulation gets divided somehow...between the neurons to create the needed effect. The problem is this is your speculation and not a proven fact. The brain works as hard as it can already and there are certain areas that create the effect, not all neurons do the same thing. To create a sensation in real time a lot of neurons are involved already so I don't understand what new neurons would be employed to process thoughts and sensations 200 000 times faster.

AOTKorby

01-19-2011, 09:05 PM

One millisecond is a 1000th part of the second..... 72 hours is 259 200 times more than one second. So you are saying that since there are a lot of neurons the stimulation gets divided somehow...between the neurons to create the needed effect. The problem is this is your speculation and not a proven fact. The brain works as hard as it can already and there are certain areas that create the effect, not all neurons do the same thing. To create a sensation in real time a lot of neurons are involved already so I don't understand what new neurons would be employed to process thoughts and sensations 200 000 times faster.

If each neuron can send a signal in a millisecond and each neuron can send hundreds of signals at a time and there are trillions of neurons in the body, then your argument is still terrible.

Numinous

01-19-2011, 09:09 PM

no problem, if you any kind of similar help (math/physics) let me know, ill help if i can.

just a suggestion, why not make every 1200th year a leap year. yeah it is kinda more complicated but the numbers are nice, and no added month.
well its your choice, you could continue that pattern of leaping as far as you'd like if youd really like supreme accuracy.

I think I'm happy now with my leap year module with your suggestion of the non-leap year. I know the concept of a whole new month sounds incredibly odd, specially on the financial aspect (I mean, one extra pay check every 12 months? Employers would hate long-term contracts), but in the other hand, I think that "every month has 101 days, except the month of Dinah, which only exists every 12 years and has 86 days" is easier to memorize than "January, March, May, July, August, October and December have 31 days; April, June, September and November have 30 days; February has 28, except on leap years that occur every 4 years, when it has 29 days".

also, you should take into account the lifespan of europaens, since how it could/should influence how much accuracy you "need".In a matter of fact, the accuracy I truly need is 0. Why? Because in my manga, the continent of Daiwa has a fixed season due to the fact that the artificial sun has the same pattern across the sky every single time and they can't see the night sky under the ice sheet that covers Europa. But still, I personally prefer to assume a calendar that would work on an Earth-like planet, just to be properly prepared against the nitpickers that would say "but this calendar is so random!" if I didn't do otherwise.

About lifespans, normally they live up to 80 years (949 human years), due to much slower metabolism, but of course there are exceptions (the immortals, which are already on the 4100+ years/almost 50 000 human years). So yeah, they're old...

stubborn_d0nkey

01-20-2011, 01:40 AM

^just popping out ideas :)

btw. is the knuckle counting system taught to kids in portugal? its used to distinguish long and short months?

Numinous

01-20-2011, 06:51 AM

^just popping out ideas :)

btw. is the knuckle counting system taught to kids in portugal? its used to distinguish long and short months?

No, it's not taught, we have to do learn it the long way. Also, it wouldn't work on my manga, because some demons have 4 fingers and other 6 fingers.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-22-2011, 03:10 PM

Did KYF just say that physical reality wouldn't exist without us and our perception of it? I've heard many things from anthropocentrism, but this takes the cake any day.

The context of my statement rains true numnutts... (I like that nickname better, dont u :))

Ur forgetting that physical reality isnt even detectable without our sensory organs and theyre ability to come together to form perception which even allows for awareness of whats referred to as "TIME"... That shitz fundamental and u dare bitch at me... U just cant grasp the simple concept so u back peddle with insults...

Again, ur playing the patatoe patato game... taking the same thing and calling it something else...

Err... you got this situation backwards, dimwit.

Dimwit? U cant even understand fundamentals of perception, time and definition of "existence"....

Again, you are putting an arbitrary limit to arbitrary terms. You were the one who came up with "2 days in 1 second", while the manga says "3 days in a moment", and doesn't specify how long that moment was. Also, "172 800 times faster than a normal brain would function"? The brain doesn't have a default perception of 1 second, it can change wildly depending on what the sensory organs are sending to the brain.

Arbitrary my ass! Ur just trying to over complicate the argument to try and skew the context of time for ur reality of discussion. B....... S........!!!

If you don't know what it means, it's better not use it or you're pulling a KYF.

Time dilatation depends on the velocity and/or gravity of the object/environment.And for such a stark difference in time dilatation, Tsukuyomi's hypothesized dimension would be in cosmic body moving absurdly close to the speed of light or with a huge gravity force that would make Kakashi's body crush due to his own weight.

Now ur just trying to pull physics from ur ass... Physics says time moves differently the faster u go and once up to the speed of light it slows down dramatically, yet nothing even close to 3 days in an instant....

And gravity!?! Clearly not even applicable in this situation....

Occam's Razor says that is more probable to modify the perception of time 170 000 times faster than Kakashi surviving 3 days in Tsukuyomi's dimension. I have the science on my side.

No, Occams Razor says ur a jackass trying to call the same thing (time) something else due to ur bias stance in this debate...

The simplist, most logical, most likely answer is itachi, is in fact, manipulating time itself...

Each individual person has theyre own reality and thus, only manipulating the time in one of those realities still constitutes time manipulation...

Ur argument that its only the perception of times isnt wrong, just that u dont understand time in any reality is nonexistent without the perception itself...

Phenomenological realities time (of the mind)
or physical reality (what we call the "Real" world)

Ur stuck on the real part as if its in actuality when more likely some vague notion u pretend to comprehend... Controlling the perception of time is controlling TIME, because its only relevant time to man...

"REAl" so called time is only a time we believe we perceive and yet the mind is a tricky thing so good luck buddy....

Still, both remain the same in that one (real time) doesnt exist without the Perception to recognize change and be aware of whats called TIME... and with that, Tuskuyomi does control time.... and while it doesnt have too much of an effect on the physical world, it does effect the being/shinobi hit with tsukuyomi which is good enough of an effect on the physical world...

The shitz canon!!! T/S jutsu effect space and TIME.... It was not specified only physical time as perceived by man otherwise kishi wouldve elaborated as to what form of time....

AOTKorby

01-22-2011, 04:42 PM

The context of my statement rains true numnutts... (I like that nickname better, dont u :))

Ur forgetting that physical reality isnt even detectable without our sensory organs and theyre ability to come together to form perception which even allows for awareness of whats referred to as "TIME"... That shitz fundamental and u dare bitch at me... U just cant grasp the simple concept so u back peddle with insults...

Again, ur playing the patatoe patato game... taking the same thing and calling it something else...

Something will exist whether or not anything actually perceives its existence. This is why "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound" questions are fucking retarded. Time passes whether anything recognizes that passage or not. A rock on the ground is going to exist whether or not anyone can see it. Perception is not required for reality to happen. The billions and billions of years that went down before any form of life evolved prove this.

Dimwit? U cant even understand fundamentals of perception, time and definition of "existence"....

A rock on the ground doesn't exist solely because I see it there. It exists because the atoms that it consists of formed a compound, and those compounds were bonded to form a mineral, which was broken down until it formed the rock. Perception is based on reality, not the other way around, you fucking dumbass.

Arbitrary my ass! Ur just trying to over complicate the argument to try and skew the context of time for ur reality of discussion. B....... S........!!!

How does mentioning the fact that time is absolute while the perceived passage of time is not "skew the context of time"? Super is claiming that the brain can't POSSIBLY have its perception of time manipulated to experience the illusion of three days in but a moment, based on a claim that the brain can't possibly work that hard. Which it can.

Now ur just trying to pull physics from ur ass... Physics says time moves differently the faster u go and once up to the speed of light it slows down dramatically, yet nothing even close to 3 days in an instant

Relativity does not work that way. Of course it's "nothing even close to 3 days in an instant". It works THE OTHER WAY. Tsukuyomi slows down the perception of time, relativity SPEEDS TIME ITSELF UP. Years would pass in normal time while mere moments would pass in speed-of-light time. Tsukuyomi is an illusion that manipulates how the brain perceives a moment by making the victim experience torture over what FEELS LIKE 3 days. It's not actually 3 days, it's just a moment.

No, Occams Razor says ur a jackass trying to call the same thing (time) something else due to ur bias stance in this debate...

No, no, no, no, Jesus Christ you are retarded. How the brain experiences time and time itself are not the same thing. At all. An illusionary technique manipulating the mind of the victim is far more likely than an illusionary technique TELEPORTING DA MIND OF TEH VICTIM INTOO ANOTHURR DIMENSHUN WHERE THE USER CONTROLS TIME ITSELF AND HAS ABSOLUTE POWURR!!!

The simplist, most logical, most likely answer is itachi, is in fact, manipulating time itself...

No, it really fucking isn't.

Each individual person has theyre own reality and thus, only manipulating the time in one of those realities still constitutes time manipulation...

Ur argument that its only the perception of times isnt wrong, just that u dont understand time in any reality is nonexistent without the perception itself...

Phenomenological realities time (of the mind)
or physical reality (what we call the "Real" world)

Ur stuck on the real part as if its in actuality when more likely some vague notion u pretend to comprehend... Controlling the perception of time is controlling TIME, because its only relevant time to man...

"REAl" so called time is only a time we believe we perceive and yet the mind is a tricky thing so good luck buddy....

Still, both remain the same in that one (real time) doesnt exist without the Perception to recognize change and be aware of whats called TIME... and with that, Tuskuyomi does control time.... and while it doesnt have too much of an effect on the physical world, it does effect the being/shinobi hit with tsukuyomi which is good enough of an effect on the physical world...

The shitz canon!!! T/S jutsu effect space and TIME.... It was not specified only physical time as perceived by man otherwise kishi wouldve elaborated as to what form of time....

Oh shut up. Bullshit philosophy is not on the same level of fact with actual physics, biology, and psychology. You can't fucking understand how the brain works, or you're deliberately ignoring how everyone knows it works just to try to make an argument. If you know something that is fact which contradicts an argument, DON'T TRY TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT. For fuck's sake.

Phenomenological Reality is complete bullshit. Do you honestly believe time didn't pass until fully sentient life evolved? Do you really think nothing existed until there was life to perceive its existence? Do you understand how stupid everything you're claiming is? Time is relative to EVERYTHING, you fucking idiot. Unstable isotopes decay at random rates over TIME. Stars burn through the elements that allow them to undergo fusion over TIME. Planets are formed from the residue of nebulae that have formed stars as dust and the like are slowly compressed into solid not-quite-spheres. OVER TIME. Pressure from the buildup of magma underneath a volcano grows steadily OVER TIME. You really think that those things wouldn't be happening without living beings to observe that passage of time? You god damn retard.

Numinous

01-22-2011, 05:01 PM

The context of my statement rains true numnutts... (I like that nickname better, dont u :))

No, it doesn't remain (or rains, by your piss poor English) true because what you said is just hilariously stupid.

And oh look, another faggy nickname! Geez, if you want a piece of me that badly, at least be honest!

Ur forgetting that physical reality isnt even detectable without our sensory organsWut? You serious? The sensory organs' function is to detect the most of the physical reality they can within their limitations.

and theyre ability to come together to form perception which even allows for awareness of whats referred to as "TIME"... And time still exists without us perceiving it. Now our perception of time might vary due to what our sensory organs capture.

That shitz fundamental and u dare bitch at me... U just cant grasp the simple concept so u back peddle with insults...

Again, ur playing the patatoe patato game... taking the same thing and calling it something else...

Dimwit? U cant even understand fundamentals of perception, time and definition of "existence"..Good old projection. Oh KYF, you adorable little moron.

Arbitrary my ass! Ur just trying to over complicate the argument to try and skew the context of time for ur reality of discussion. B....... S........!!!You're the one spouting pure bullshit here, son. Superninja was puting arbitrary limits to arbitrary terms and I called him on it. Don't come out as if you knew what the heck he was talking about, because he admitted he didn't either.

Now ur just trying to pull physics from ur ass... Physics says time moves differently the faster u go and once up to the speed of light it slows down dramatically, yet nothing even close to 3 days in an instant....You clearly haven't read anything on Einstein's theory of relativity, or you'd facepalm at such stupidity.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Time_dilation.svg/380px-Time_dilation.svg.png

See this graph? It correlates speed to time dilatation, and the function it follows it's EXPONENTIAL, with a limit to POSITIVE INFINITY. Meaning that 3 days in a few seconds is possible if the approximation to the speed of light is enough.

And gravity!?! Clearly not even applicable in this situation....You don't want to apply it because you know it just crushes any possibility of a different dimension for Tsukuyomi.

No, Occams Razor says ur a jackass trying to call the same thing (time) something else due to ur bias stance in this debate...

The simplist, most logical, most likely answer is itachi, is in fact, manipulating time itself...

Each individual person has theyre own reality and thus, only manipulating the time in one of those realities still constitutes time manipulation... This is unbelievable. You just can't be this stupid. It's humanly impossible!

Let me rephrase your quote for it to make sense.

No, Occams Razor is a tool to indicate that the argument that takes the least leaps is the most logical.

The simplist, most logical, most likely answer is itachi, is in fact, manipulating the perception of time of his victim...

Each individual person has their own perception of reality and thus, only manipulating the perception of time in their minds constitutes the only way for Tsukuyomi to work without killing the victim in the spot Ur argument that its only the perception of times isnt wrong, just that u dont understand time in any reality is nonexistent without the perception itself...Stupidity on its best. Time exists since the birth of the Universe, and there wasn't any organisms to have a perception of it for billions of years. And unless you're a wacky Young Earth Creationist, you just shot your own foot.

Phenomenological realities time (of the mind)
or physical reality (what we call the "Real" world)Two completely different concepts that you're mixing up what precedes the next.

Ur stuck on the real part as if its in actuality when more likely some vague notion u pretend to comprehend... Controlling the perception of time is controlling TIME, because its only relevant time to man...And again, stupidity all over the place. Miburo already gave the clock example, which even a 4 year old would get. I can mess with the perception of time of someone without altering mine or time itself. It's common sense 101, dumbass.

"REAl" so called time is only a time we believe we perceive and yet the mind is a tricky thing so good luck buddy....

Still, both remain the same in that one (real time) doesnt exist without the Perception to recognize change and be aware of whats called TIME... Let me point out a thing I learned in high school psychology: there's a moment in a person's development where we acquire the notion of the permanent object. In common words, if something can't be perceived but we know it exists and we know the last time we have seen it, we know where to get it. Do you know when humans acquire such notion? WHEN WE ARE BABIES. And since you clearly didn't acquired it, YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A BIG, FAT BABY THAT KNOWS SHIT OF SCIENCE (EXCEPT THE SUMMARIES OF WIKIPEDIA THAT YOU STILL GET WRONG) AND EXPECT THAT WHAT COMES OUT OF YOUR DIAPER IS ACCEPTABLE FOR OTHERS' NOSES AND YOU CRY YOUR EYES OUT WHEN I'M MEAN TO YOU! SO GO FETCH YOUR MOMMY'S NIPPLE, SUCKLE ON IT AND STFU!!!!

*calms self down*

We have a variable perception of it, and denying such is futile.

and with that, Tuskuyomi does control time.... and while it doesnt have too much of an effect on the physical world, it does effect the being/shinobi hit with tsukuyomi which is good enough of an effect on the physical world...Wrong. Physical world =/= perception of said world.

The shitz canon!!! T/S jutsu effect space and TIME.... It was not specified only physical time as perceived by man otherwise kishi wouldve elaborated as to what form of time....Kishi didn't expect anyone still on his diapers to read the manga anyway, so assumed everyone knew what time is.

ask me anything

01-22-2011, 05:15 PM

Here we go again.

Goddamn KYF. I'm going to turn off my monitor now. I can't hear you, nor see you, nor smell you, nor touch you, nor taste you(eww!! at the thought). Therefore by my sensory perception you cease to exist.

You still there??? -______- you fail

Sensei-Q

01-22-2011, 05:53 PM

Let me see what I can do about this. I'm sure I can drag some truth out of his logical theory.

So Technically all are forms of T/S jutu like amaterasu is a elemental T/S ninjutsu and tsukuyomi is a T/S genjutsu... ect ect............

So Technically all are forms of T/S jutsu...........

all are forms of T/S jutsu...........

forms of T/S jutsu...........

T/S jutsu

I give up.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 07:24 PM

Something will exist whether or not anything actually perceives its existence. This is why "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound" questions are fucking retarded. Time passes whether anything recognizes that passage or not. A rock on the ground is going to exist whether or not anyone can see it. Perception is not required for reality to happen. The billions and billions of years that went down before any form of life evolved prove this.

That is absolute BULLSHIT!!! Something cannot exist without the ability to actually perceive/recognize/be aware of w/e it is..... What ur referring to is BELIEVING not existing....

If a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to hear it, then a sound is not made.... merely BELIEVED to have been made. Sound exists only because we can sense it.... Otherwise it would just be a vague notion of something we dont understand and just BELIEVE to exist...

Ur still missing the difference between existing and believing...

A rock on the ground doesn't exist solely because I see it there. It exists because the atoms that it consists of formed a compound, and those compounds were bonded to form a mineral, which was broken down until it formed the rock. Perception is based on reality, not the other way around, you fucking dumbass.

No, a rock exist because u can see, feel and understand HOW its is what is is through the sensing of its atoms formed into molecules, ect ect through a sight "sense" enhancing Microscope u jackass....

The only proof of the existence of anything is through ur own sense and perception u jackass....

Lol, reality the is the world u perceive through what u accept as real and fake...

How does mentioning the fact that time is absolute while the perceived passage of time is not "skew the context of time"? Super is claiming that the brain can't POSSIBLY have its perception of time manipulated to experience the illusion of three days in but a moment, based on a claim that the brain can't possibly work that hard. Which it can.

The time of physical reality doesnt even exist without our ability to perceive it! To be aware of it!!! U only accept its there because ur aware of because of ur ability to perceive it...

Relativity does not work that way. Of course it's "nothing even close to 3 days in an instant". It works THE OTHER WAY. Tsukuyomi slows down the perception of time, relativity SPEEDS TIME ITSELF UP. Years would pass in normal time while mere moments would pass in speed-of-light time. Tsukuyomi is an illusion that manipulates how the brain perceives a moment by making the victim experience torture over what FEELS LIKE 3 days. It's not actually 3 days, it's just a moment.

Ur speaking or two different realities (Physical and phenomenological)when there is actually millions in the naruto world (im assuming the world populous number...)
There is no physical reality time, but each persons perception of how time passes which differs with each person....

Just because 3 days passed in kakashis reality while 1 instant passed in itachi, kisame, asuma and kurenais reality doesnt mean time was manipulated lol...
The manipulation of time in even one reality is enough to make tsukuyomi a T/S genjutsu....

No, no, no, no, Jesus Christ you are retarded. How the brain experiences time and time itself are not the same thing. At all. An illusionary technique manipulating the mind of the victim is far more likely than an illusionary technique TELEPORTING DA MIND OF TEH VICTIM INTOO ANOTHURR DIMENSHUN WHERE THE USER CONTROLS TIME ITSELF AND HAS ABSOLUTE POWURR!!!

Ur the retard calling time, a different kind of time.... U JACKASS!!!

Manipulating the perception of time is manipulating time for the love all that is holy!!!!!! Whats more important is never was it specified what form of time has to be manipulated to be dubbed a T/S jutsu....

Oh shut up. Bullshit philosophy is not on the same level of fact with actual physics, biology, and psychology. You can't fucking understand how the brain works, or you're deliberately ignoring how everyone knows it works just to try to make an argument. If you know something that is fact which contradicts an argument, DON'T TRY TO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT. For fuck's sake.

WRONG! Facts are merely Info u Accept as true or real.... Thats unfortunately all a fact can be when perceived by most human beings cause were clouded by emotions, prejudice, bias and preconceived notions... Like trying to see through a thick fog and only seeing a vague Image of whats REALLY there...

Facts are facts, but with about 7 billion different realities and concepts of FACTS.. the word becomes far too ambiguous.

Phenomenological Reality is complete bullshit. Do you honestly believe time didn't pass until fully sentient life evolved? Do you really think nothing existed until there was life to perceive its existence? Do you understand how stupid everything you're claiming is? Time is relative to EVERYTHING, you fucking idiot. Unstable isotopes decay at random rates over TIME. Stars burn through the elements that allow them to undergo fusion over TIME. Planets are formed from the residue of nebulae that have formed stars as dust and the like are slowly compressed into solid not-quite-spheres. OVER TIME. Pressure from the buildup of magma underneath a volcano grows steadily OVER TIME. You really think that those things wouldn't be happening without living beings to observe that passage of time? You god damn retard.

Ur still missing the point! TIME is a conception of man u jackass and its measurements and flow are based on our perception of it... The universe did what it did and does because we perceive it... Without our senses or perception then there would be no universe, stars, etc etc...

U INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THIS JUST SHOWS HOW SHALLOW U TRULY ARE... Ur perception and beliefs make ur reality what it is and ur jackassery to not understand there is 7 billion others coexisting with urs so times passage varies greatly and the physical world time is based on our own perception as well....

In lamens terms... Tsukuyomi is a fucking T/S genjutsu.....

kael03

01-29-2011, 07:33 PM

I believe you don't exist. Does that mean you really don't exist?

ask me anything

01-29-2011, 07:38 PM

goddamn KYF that's by far the most retarded thing you ever said. I bet you can't beat this record.

kael03

01-29-2011, 07:39 PM

Thanks for that clarification edit, ama. I was hoping you weren't talking to me with the original version.

KillerNN

01-29-2011, 07:39 PM

goddamn KYF that's by far the most retarded thing you ever said. I bet you can't beat this record.

I dunno about this ama.

AOTKorby

01-29-2011, 07:44 PM

e_O

What? Please tell me you're not serious, KYF. Please. Please tell me you are not honestly stupid enough to believe that everyone and everything only exists because something perceives it. Spare yourself some shred of dignity and self-respect. For the love of God.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 07:51 PM

[QUOTE]

And oh look, another faggy nickname! Geez, if you want a piece of me that badly, at least be honest!

Wut? You serious? The sensory organs' function is to detect the most of the physical reality they can within their limitations.

And time still exists without us perceiving it. Now our perception of time might vary due to what our sensory organs capture.

Good old projection. Oh KYF, you adorable little moron.

Nope, U believe it exists merely because ur already aware of it.... Try again Numnutts....

You're the one spouting pure bullshit here, son. Superninja was puting arbitrary limits to arbitrary terms and I called him on it. Don't come out as if you knew what the heck he was talking about, because he admitted he didn't either.

My post didnt have much to do with SNs...... So... yea....

You clearly haven't read anything on Einstein's theory of relativity, or you'd facepalm at such stupidity.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Time_dilation.svg/380px-Time_dilation.svg.png

See this graph? It correlates speed to time dilatation, and the function it follows it's EXPONENTIAL, with a limit to POSITIVE INFINITY. Meaning that 3 days in a few seconds is possible if the approximation to the speed of light is enough.

Yea, well Einstein has nothing to do with ninja mind magic and the argument of u calling time, not time.....

You don't want to apply it because you know it just crushes any possibility of a different dimension for Tsukuyomi.

This is unbelievable. You just can't be this stupid. It's humanly impossible!

Let me rephrase your quote for it to make sense.

Correction, u dont understand that Phenomenological time, is TIME u fool!!! The very perception of time and any manipulation of it constitutes a T/S jutsu... Ur still calling a tomato a tammato....

Stupidity on its best. Time exists since the birth of the Universe, and there wasn't any organisms to have a perception of it for billions of years. And unless you're a wacky Young Earth Creationist, you just shot your own foot.

No, Time Exist ever since we conceived the concept..... Get it right!!!!

Two completely different concepts that you're mixing up what precedes the next.

And again, stupidity all over the place. Miburo already gave the clock example, which even a 4 year old would get. I can mess with the perception of time of someone without altering mine or time itself. It's common sense 101, dumbass.

changing the numbers on a clock isnt changing time.... the analogy was crap! Fact of the matter is, time is a conception of man and our perception of it is why it even exist.... So, the manipulation of even one persons reality of time is a T/S jutsu.....

Let me point out a thing I learned in high school psychology: there's a moment in a person's development where we acquire the notion of the permanent object. In common words, if something can't be perceived but we know it exists and we know the last time we have seen it, we know where to get it. Do you know when humans acquire such notion? WHEN WE ARE BABIES. And since you clearly didn't acquired it, YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A BIG, FAT BABY THAT KNOWS SHIT OF SCIENCE (EXCEPT THE SUMMARIES OF WIKIPEDIA THAT YOU STILL GET WRONG) AND EXPECT THAT WHAT COMES OUT OF YOUR DIAPER IS ACCEPTABLE FOR OTHERS' NOSES AND YOU CRY YOUR EYES OUT WHEN I'M MEAN TO YOU! SO GO FETCH YOUR MOMMY'S NIPPLE, SUCKLE ON IT AND STFU!!!!

*calms self down*

If u took psychology then u would know ur a delusion fool then lol... And that ur incapable of a objective point of view due to the childish emotions that rule ur psyche and the prejudice towards my every idea.... But, like everyone else, no matter how smart u are, ur still limited by ur inability to perceive clearly due to the reasons Ive already stated..

We have a variable perception of it, and denying such is futile.

Wrong. Physical world =/= perception of said world.

Kishi didn't expect anyone still on his diapers to read the manga anyway, so assumed everyone knew what time is.

Again, ur a absolute jackass!!! U believe time started at the beginning of everything and accept it, thus making it true in ur meager reality when in fact time is the conception of man, not the universe......

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 07:54 PM

Kinako

01-29-2011, 07:56 PM

Wtf is this shit???

KillerNN

01-29-2011, 08:00 PM

Konnaha don't do this to your self man.

Just because I can't see you, or hear you, doesn't mean you aren't there. That is like saying a blind, mute, deaf man is surrounded by people but because he can't see, hear, or speak to them they aren't there. Thats fucking stupid.

AOTKorby

01-29-2011, 08:00 PM

then what is there without perception???

Matter. Energy. Time. Space. Reality.

Are you saying that things like Black Holes and Galaxies did not exist until we invented instruments strong enough to see them? Are you saying The Fucking Sun didn't exist until living beings were there to perceive it? You're literally suggesting that time does not exist without something to perceive it? Are you fucking high? Mathematics say you're wrong. Physics say you're wrong. Chemistry says you're wrong. Astronomy says you're wrong. Geology says you're wrong. Radiology says you're wrong. Psychology says you're wrong. Biology says you're wrong. Everything except the unimaginably retarded philosophy you're trying to use says that your point is utter horseshit.

Think about the speed of light. We can't observe something way out in the universe until the light from it reaches Earth. Say a star is formed, then the first light from that star reaches Earth 200 years later. Did that star not actually exist until we knew about it? OF COURSE IT EXISTED.

Jesus Fucking Christ. This is a level of stupid possibly beyond even...Young Earth Creationists!

Kinako

01-29-2011, 08:06 PM

If a fat bitch fell down in an empty aisle in a supermarket, who would be there to laugh??

If you got beat by a one legged man in an ass kicking contest, how could you act tough afterwards?

If I couldn't see, touch, taste, hear, or think about something....wouldn't that just make me a senseless motherfucker????

Just fuckin around people.....continue with this discussion

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 08:21 PM

[QUOTE]Matter. Energy. Time. Space. Reality.

Are you saying that things like Black Holes and Galaxies did not exist until we invented instruments strong enough to see them? Are you saying The Fucking Sun didn't exist until living beings were there to perceive it? You're literally suggesting that time does not exist without something to perceive it? Are you fucking high? Mathematics say you're wrong. Physics say you're wrong. Chemistry says you're wrong. Astronomy says you're wrong. Geology says you're wrong. Radiology says you're wrong. Psychology says you're wrong. Biology says you're wrong. Everything except the unimaginably retarded philosophy you're trying to use says that your point is utter horseshit.

Reality is based on what one accepts as real.... The use of perception to gauge ones own reality lets say.... The sun, earth, ect were all here before us because we deduced such info through our perception... mathmatics, science, ect is all the same....

Time is a word we give to a phenomena we believe to understand, but is still our conception....

To Christians God exist.... He actually exist to them and yet because they truly believe he/it does... and yet also, some believe black holes, anitmatter ect, is BS despite our ability to perceive and deduce its existence yet, because they believe it, its true.... Thats whats called reality...

Time is no different... Each person has theyre own reality and time flows differently in each reality depending on the person...

And without our sensory organs and theyre ability to allow us to interact with what we call the physical world then no, how could those things exist if we dont?

Think about the speed of light. We can't observe something way out in the universe until the light from it reaches Earth. Say a star is formed, then the first light from that star reaches Earth 200 years later. Did that star not actually exist until we knew about it? OF COURSE IT EXISTED.

How do u know?? How can u even begin to understand what it means to exist?? Yea, because u believe u do and accept u do, thats the only reason.

Jesus Fucking Christ. This is a level of stupid possibly beyond even...Young Earth Creationists!

And yet u cant even grasp the simple concept of reality....

Thor

01-29-2011, 08:30 PM

I want what flash is smoking, it seems good!

p.s. my philosophy teacher once tried a cliché act on a class.

He tried the chair trick. He asked the students to prove that a Chair placed in the center of the classroom was not actually real.

One smart-ass student said: The chair does not exist without my recognition of its existence, therefore i say the chair does not exist, i do not recognize its existence.

The other smart-ass picked up the chair and threw it at the first smart-ass face. Needless to say... they both found out that the chair was pretty damn real when it hit his nose, breaking it.

Veredict? The chair was real, so was the broken nose and so was the suspension the student suffered for throwing the chair.

p.s. the correct answer would be that the chair is a chair because we call it chair and use it as a chair, i say that if we use the chair as a table then it becomes a table.

Perception is a funny thing... it can mold objects through the use we give them... but it does not fucking erase them from reality.

AOTKorby

01-29-2011, 08:41 PM

Reality is based on what one accepts as real.... The use of perception to gauge ones own reality lets say.... The sun, earth, ect were all here before us because we deduced such info through our perception... mathmatics, science, ect is all the same....

Time is a word we give to a phenomena we believe to understand, but is still our conception....

To Christians God exist.... He actually exist to them and yet because they truly believe he/it does... and yet also, some believe black holes, anitmatter ect, is BS despite our ability to perceive and deduce its existence yet, because they believe it, its true.... Thats whats called reality...

Time is no different... Each person has theyre own reality and time flows differently in each reality depending on the person...

And without our sensory organs and theyre ability to allow us to interact with what we call the physical world then no, how could those things exist if we dont?

How do u know?? How can u even begin to understand what it means to exist?? Yea, because u believe u do and accept u do, thats the only reason.

And yet u cant even grasp the simple concept of reality....

If I choose to believe the fucking Earth is flat, it doesn't mean that the Earth is flat. Anyone can tell that the Earth is not-quite-but-damn-close-to spherical. If I completely ignore these facts and honestly believe that the Earth is flat, it does not make the Earth flat. The hypothetical Christians that you say "believe Black holes and shit are a myth" aren't in some separate reality where they're a myth...THEY'RE JUST FUCKING WRONG.

You are aware of how your statement that "we knew the Sun and Stars and shit existed before us" is completely contradictory to your entire argument. Nothing perceived their existence before life came into existence, therefore they should not have existed, by your batshit insane logic.

If "nothing can exist without our ability to perceive it", then the entire universe would cease to exist the moment life ceased to exist. Do you actually believe that would happen?

Time is a phenomena that is not just demonstrated by our perception of it, you fucking tool. Ever heard of half-life? It's an estimation of the amount of time that it takes for half the atoms in a decaying substance to undergo nuclear change completely randomly. Do you think that these atoms would not decay at all if no one observed it?

You're basically arguing that Time does not exist. Time is among the most fundamental traits of the entire Universe. Absolutely nothing would happen, no force would be exerted, no movement would occur, no energy would be released and absorbed if Time did not exist. Time is literally a measure of existence itself. There's a reason that nothing can happen in a space of exactly Zero seconds. So long as the Universe exists, has existed, and will exist, time is the measure of things happening. If time solely relied on human perspective, then everything in the Universe's rate of occurrence would be variable based on how any given living thing feels time is passing.

If two people drop blocks off a 2-story building, but a guy who the "seconds feel like hours" for directly observes one, they'll still hit the ground at the same time. You know why? Because velocity is a measure of change in position over time. Time itself does not slow down or speed up for anyone just based on perception. Get it through your damn head.

ask me anything

01-29-2011, 08:47 PM

Ok, time to be serious...kinda. I'll try to limit my vocabulary so your 3rd grade level of intelligence can keep up.

That is absolute BULLSHIT!!! Something cannot exist without the ability to actually perceive/recognize/be aware of w/e it is..... What ur referring to is BELIEVING not existing....

If a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to hear it, then a sound is not made.... merely BELIEVED to have been made. Sound exists only because we can sense it.... Otherwise it would just be a vague notion of something we dont understand and just BELIEVE to exist...

Ever heard of the scientific method. I know that middle school level education, but listen up.

If a tree falls and it consistently makes a sound, then it's safe to say it's always gonna make a noise when it falls. You can test this if you want. Go jump of a very tall building, and see if gravity pulls you down. I mean, just because it so happens to "coincidentally" work like that in every other scenario doesn't mean it's gonna work when you try it, amirite.

No, a rock exist because u can see, feel and understand HOW its is what it is through the sensing of its atoms formed into molecules, ect ect through a sight "sense" enhancing Microscope u jackass....

The only proof of the existence of anything is through ur own sense and perception u jackass....

Lol, reality the is the world u perceive through what u accept as real and fake...

The time of physical reality doesnt even exist without our ability to perceive it! To be aware of it!!! U only accept its there because ur aware of because of ur ability to perceive it...No shit exists anyway, regardless of whether or not we are here to sense it.

What about shit that happened before you are born? If we weren't alive in the time of the dinosaurs, then how do we know it happened?

That's a trick question by the way. Letting you know ahead of time. I bet you won't answer it though.

Ur speaking or two different realities (Physical and phenomenological)when there is actually millions in the naruto world (im assuming the world populous number...)
There is no physical reality time, but each persons perception of how time passes which differs with each person....

Just because 3 days passed in kakashis reality while 1 instant passed in itachi, kisame, asuma and kurenais reality doesnt mean time was manipulated lol...
The manipulation of time in even one reality is enough to make tsukuyomi a T/S genjutsu....I gonna completely ignore these ramblings and get to the heart of the matter.

Do you believe that time is being altered when a person is asleep? I'm not talking about narutoverse specifically (though it does apply there too)or any bullshit. Just in general. When you go to sleep at night and have a dream that feels like it's lasting for hours or days, then wake up to find less then that amount of time has passed, then has your time been altered? I'm just curious how your phenomenological mumbo jumbo plays into that scenario.

Facts are facts, but with about 7 billion different realities and concepts of FACTS.. the word becomes far too ambiguous.
So if 7 billion different people in "different realities" experience the concept of time in the same exact way, then that's just a coincidence eh? 7 billion simultaneous coincidences. LOL

Ur still missing the point! TIME is a conception of man u jackass and its measurements and flow are based on our perception of it... The universe did what it did and does because we perceive it... Without our senses or perception then there would be no universe, stars, etc etc...

U INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THIS JUST SHOWS HOW SHALLOW U TRULY ARE... Ur perception and beliefs make ur reality what it is and ur jackassery to not understand there is 7 billion others coexisting with urs so times passage varies greatly and the physical world time is based on our own perception as well....
Time is not a human concept. LOL. You saying animals don't understand time either. So when I swat at a fly, it doesn't sense the velocity of my hand moving through space in conjunction to the passing of time, and decide "time to fly the fuck off".

The only truthful thing in this quote is that we developed measurements to break it down into smaller bits. That's because...wait for it...wait for it...ALL PEOPLE (7 BILLION OF US) RECOGNIZE THERE IS A UNIVERSAL RATE FOR THE PASSING OF TIME, THAT DOESN'T VARY FROM PERSON TO PERSON.

In lamens terms... Tsukuyomi is a fucking T/S genjutsu.....In laymens terms (can't forget the Y).. you are wrong.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 09:32 PM

[QUOTE]If I choose to believe the fucking Earth is flat, it doesn't mean that the Earth is flat. Anyone can tell that the Earth is not-quite-but-damn-close-to spherical. If I completely ignore these facts and honestly believe that the Earth is flat, it does not make the Earth flat. The hypothetical Christians that you say "believe Black holes and shit are a myth" aren't in some separate reality where they're a myth...THEY'RE JUST FUCKING WRONG.

Thats what u dont get.... Wether the earth is round or black holes really being out there is irrelevant! In reality, its the belief and acceptance that the earth is flat, ect ect that makes it real.... Even if its not to others... Its the same with god, Satan, ect.....

U merely believe blackholes exist because u were told they did... U have never actually seen and touched one yet u believe they are real.... why??? Because u accept the information u have been given....

You are aware of how your statement that "we knew the Sun and Stars and shit existed before us" is completely contradictory to your entire argument. Nothing perceived their existence before life came into existence, therefore they should not have existed, by your batshit insane logic.

I said we perceieved the sun and earth we around before us only due to our perceptive abilities to gather the info and deduce it.... which again, is only due to our perception which is already tricky enough... Dont skew my words to try and work work u in ur argument...

If "nothing can exist without our ability to perceive it", then the entire universe would cease to exist the moment life ceased to exist. Do you actually believe that would happen?

Whos to say Consciousness doesnt transcend mere "life" as u put it... But anyways, how could it...???

Time is a phenomena that is not just demonstrated by our perception of it, you fucking tool. Ever heard of half-life? It's an estimation of the amount of time that it takes for half the atoms in a decaying substance to undergo nuclear change completely randomly. Do you think that these atoms would not decay at all if no one observed it?

Do you think the atoms decay merely because thats what u believe ur observing.... Again, perceptions tricky....

You're basically arguing that Time does not exist. Time is among the most fundamental traits of the entire Universe. Absolutely nothing would happen, no force would be exerted, no movement would occur, no energy would be released and absorbed if Time did not exist. Time is literally a measure of existence itself. There's a reason that nothing can happen in a space of exactly Zero seconds. So long as the Universe exists, has existed, and will exist, time is the measure of things happening. If time solely relied on human perspective, then everything in the Universe's rate of occurrence would be variable based on how any given living thing feels time is passing.

Again, ur skewing my words... I said time exist as man conception..... Without our awareness/ability to perceive it, it wouldnt exist really.

If two people drop blocks off a 2-story building, but a guy who the "seconds feel like hours" for directly observes one, they'll still hit the ground at the same time. You know why? Because velocity is a measure of change in position over time. Time itself does not slow down or speed up for anyone just based on perception. Get it through your damn head.

Two different people live in two different realities so there should be a difference in perception of time.... so yes.....

And again, how the hell did the tsukuyomi argument get to this???

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 09:49 PM

Ok, time to be serious...kinda. I'll try to limit my vocabulary so your 3rd grade level of intelligence can keep up.

Says the tard... What?

Ever heard of the scientific method. I know that middle school level education, but listen up.

If a tree falls and it consistently makes a sound, then it's safe to say it's always gonna make a noise when it falls. You can test this if you want. Go jump of a very tall building, and see if gravity pulls you down. I mean, just because it so happens to "coincidentally" work like that in every other scenario doesn't mean it's gonna work when you try it, amirite.

Sound only exist because the sense of hearing so if no ones around to HEAR, there is no sound made... Its easy as fuck! Without a someone to hear it, it cant make a sound....

No shit exists anyway, regardless of whether or not we are here to sense it.

What about shit that happened before you are born? If we weren't alive in the time of the dinosaurs, then how do we know it happened?

That's a trick question by the way. Letting you know ahead of time. I bet you won't answer it though.

It happened because we accept it through the finding of bones, while other like religious fanatics dont accept it, thus it didnt happen... have fun with that!

I gonna completely ignore these ramblings and get to the heart of the matter.

Do you believe that time is being altered when a person is asleep? I'm not talking about narutoverse specifically (though it does apply there too)or any bullshit. Just in general. When you go to sleep at night and have a dream that feels like it's lasting for hours or days, then wake up to find less then that amount of time has passed, then has your time been altered? I'm just curious how your phenomenological mumbo jumbo plays into that scenario.

The perception of time changes due to the lack of consciousness smart ass lol... Time isnt being altered the perception is....

So if 7 billion different people in "different realities" experience the concept of time in the same exact way, then that's just a coincidence eh? 7 billion simultaneous coincidences. LOL

What u just said is impossible!!! And thus proves ur not just a dumbass, but a hypocrite for calling me one....

Time is not a human concept. LOL. You saying animals don't understand time either. So when I swat at a fly, it doesn't sense the velocity of my hand moving through space in conjunction to the passing of time, and decide "time to fly the fuck off".

LMAO, ur comparing the reflexes of a fly to time now.... WTF! Yes, its a human concept only (assuming aliens dont exist or do they because ur dumbass believes they do) ha haaaahaha...

The only truthful thing in this quote is that we developed measurements to break it down into smaller bits. That's because...wait for it...wait for it...ALL PEOPLE (7 BILLION OF US) RECOGNIZE THERE IS A UNIVERSAL RATE FOR THE PASSING OF TIME, THAT DOESN'T VARY FROM PERSON TO PERSON.

LOL, this is just ignantanous.... (yes I made my own word for u)

Everyone is not going to perceive time the same u jackass!!! Again, WTF! No more debating with u.. at least SK gives a decent argument...

In laymens terms (can't forget the Y).. you are wrong.

Nope, tsukuyomi is a T/S genjutsu... whats even worse is kishi says it manipulates time and u stcuk up fool still deny it because u BELIEVE ur right so u must be...:rolleyes: The falsities of ur realities.....

ninjalostboy95

01-29-2011, 09:50 PM

@KYF, let me mind fuck you really quick: Time is a perception and a perception is as much as the viewer perceives as reality so we label it as reality due to our awareness and knowledge but it's not reality because reality can be more than what we are aware of and can exceed our limitations so we view a fraction of reality, no matter how big or small. Just like you simply decided reality is as we perceive rather than saying what we perceive is a part of reality. Get it? Think of it as having tunnel vision, you don't get the whole picture but you get part of it. The areas you can't see(perceive) do exist but are beyond your awareness. Got it? Let me make this so simple any idiot can figure out what I'm saying. Before, people thought all matter was made up of elements(earth, water, fire, wind) because that's the limit to their awareness(knowledge) i.e what they perceive as reality. Now, reality is that all matter is made up atoms. Perception=/=all of reality, basically.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-29-2011, 10:03 PM

AOTKorby

01-29-2011, 10:34 PM

with all your "believe what u are told" bullshit, you're sounding like fucking Hipster cat, KYF. Facts are too mainstream, much?

If I had the exact same equipment and necessary knowledge as the astronomers and physicists who have determined the existence of black holes and shit, I too could find them and prove their existence. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, ESPECIALLY when other people see it just fine. Unless you're implying that every scientist on the planet has been fucking with humanity for the last 5000 years. It doesn't matter if I feel like time is moving real fuckin slow, because most everyone else perceives it as a "normal" amount. I'm not in some separate reality where time is different and constantly changing; my perception is just wrong.

ninjalostboy95

01-29-2011, 10:42 PM

Yeeeaaaa.....:rolleyes:

Victory?

:cool:

ask me anything

01-29-2011, 10:58 PM

Sound only exist because the sense of hearing so if no ones around to HEAR, there is no sound made... Its easy as fuck! Without a someone to hear it, it cant make a sound....

Way to not disprove anything I just said. So are you actually saying science doesn't exist now. Because scientifically speaking, if you can prove there are certain principles/patterns (can't find the right words here) that things always happen in, then it's assumed they will continue to happen that way even if we aren't around to see it. That is unless, future evidence is presented to counter that argument.

So yeah, your a dumbass. If a tree falls it's gonna make a sound, as long as it's under the same conditions that previous examples were observed in. Now if you want to change factors up that's different. If you were to say "What if a tree were to fall in the vacuum of space? Would it make a sounds." That would be different since there isn't air in space to transmit sound.

Basically your answer for the tree analogy is
http://www.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/674dog-i-dunno-lol.jpg

The perception of time changes due to the lack of consciousness smart ass lol... Time isnt being altered the perception is....
THIS!!! YOU JUST KILLED YOUR OWN ARGUMENT AND DON'T EVEN KNOW IT(yet).

So the minds PERCEPTION of time is altered in a dream state, and not the TIME itself. What do you think genjutsu is??? Illusions...yes, but how. You basically take your chakra use it to alter the enemies brain. Thus you alter their 5 basic senses. But that's only a tiny aspect of the brains functions. Control over the organs, memories, and yes even the perception of time are controlled by the brain. If you master the ability to control the minds perception of time, you can make 2 seconds feel like 72 hours, which is EXACTLY WHAT TSUKUYOMI DOES. Thus you just proved it's not a T/S jutsu.

Sucks to be you right now doesn't it.

What u just said is impossible!!! And thus proves ur not just a dumbass, but a hypocrite for calling me one....So your saying that's wrong. You mean my hour is 58 minutes while another guys hour is 66 minutes, while another guys hour is 106 minutes, etc.....

I don't think so. Fuck I know so.

LMAO, ur comparing the reflexes of a fly to time now.... WTF! Yes, its a human concept only (assuming aliens dont exist or do they because ur dumbass believes they do) ha haaaahaha...Pay attention here, and try to understand. Our existence is a 3 dimension world traveling through the 4th dimension of time. Our position in the present is at one specific place in time. Now draw a 3 dimensional line from the past to the present, forwards to the future. This change in your location during these time periods is called movement.

If that dumbed down enough for you. Now listen up, here's where it gets tricky (for you I mean).

Say a dog is sitting around under the sun just chilling. As the sun moves, his shadow will change positions. The animal won't see this as a threat, because he's aware that the movement isn't significant to him at all. Now if something moved at him lighting fast, he'd react. This is because he's aware of the velocity of the movement compared to the amount of time that has passed.

So yeah, animals are instinctively aware of the existence of time. If not they and nothing else could function.

LOL, this is just ignantanous.... (yes I made my own word for u)

Everyone is not going to perceive time the same u jackass!!! Again, WTF! No more debating with u.. at least SK gives a decent argument...
Glad to see your imagination is of some good use. What would we do if it weren't for you creating new words for us to use. The English language would be sooooo boring without you here. -___-

Nope, tsukuyomi is a T/S genjutsu... whats even worse is kishi says it manipulates time and u stcuk up fool still deny it because u BELIEVE ur right so u must be...:rolleyes: The falsities of ur realities.....Glad we finally agree I'm right. Good job

ninjalostboy95

01-29-2011, 11:21 PM

@KYF, let me mind fuck you really quick: Time is a perception and a perception is as much as the viewer perceives as reality so we label it as reality due to our awareness and knowledge but it's not reality because reality can be more than what we are aware of and can exceed our limitations so we view a fraction of reality, no matter how big or small.I think this is most appropiate for you now that I read your stupid sound analogy thing. In your example, the person can't hear so he came to the conclusion sound doesn't exist, right? Hearing(sound) exceeds his limitation, so he perceives it as sound is not existent, right? But his perception is wrong because sound does exist, he just can't hear it because it's beyond his limitations since he's deaf. Got ya ;o.

Thor

01-30-2011, 06:16 AM

No one quoted my post, i feel lonely... someone put the forever alone guy here :(

Sensei-Q

01-30-2011, 07:46 AM

Holy shit. KYF.

Numinous

01-30-2011, 10:03 AM

Wow... just wow. Baby KYF still thinks he knows anything about what he's talking about. He's so damn cute I'm going to spend my Latin o make him cry and probably leave the forum to spare us from his insanity.

That is absolute BULLSHIT!!! Something cannot exist without the ability to actually perceive/recognize/be aware of w/e it is..... What ur referring to is BELIEVING not existing....The only proof of the existence of anything is through ur own sense and perception u jackass....You, me and every poster in this thread exist because we're made of matter and energy, not because people can perceive us. If existence was dependable of perception and not matter & energy, NOTHING WOULD EXIST. That's how completely insane your thought process is.

If a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to hear it, then a sound is not made.... merely BELIEVED to have been made. Sound exists only because we can sense it.... Otherwise it would just be a vague notion of something we dont understand and just BELIEVE to exist...Sound is a mechanical wave that is the result of an oscillation of pressure of a given object. Since the very fact of the tree falling would cause an oscillation of pressure, it would make a sound. That's also why we can speak and hear: our vocal chords experience oscillations of pressures that result from muscle work and the air passing between the lungs and the nose/mouth, while the eardrum receives the sound and passes it through the ossicles and then to the brain. High School Physics and Biology just proved you wrong.

Ur still missing the difference between existing and believing...I know reality exists, but I don't believe God exists. At least I am 100% sure I know the difference.

No, a rock exist because u can see, feel and understand HOW its is what is is through the sensing of its atoms formed into molecules, ect ect through a sight "sense" enhancing Microscope u jackass....KYF, if there is anything that is a constant in the Universe, is the amount of energy+matter+antimatter (following Lavoisier's principle that is yet to be disproved). Time, electromagnetic force, nuclear forces, gravity, heat, pressure, volume, entropy and many, many others phenomena of the Universe can be altered, but not that the amount of energy+matter+antimatter.

And you'll find that, the more basic the phenomena is, the harder is to vary it, because more and more reactions depend on that phenomena. That's why the amount of energy+matter+antimatter is the ultimate constant: everything that exists depends of it, even time (since time dilatation derives from the speed of light and/or gravity, 2 phenomena derived from energy+matter+antimatter).

That's where Occam's Razor and the Law of Minimal Effort (it's not a gag for work, it's a very real scientific law) kick in: the Law of Minimal Effort says that the Universe ALWAYS works in processes that take less steps as possible, and Occam's Razor compliments it by stating that the answer that requires less steps is the most logical one.

Now let's take it into context: variation of perception of time only requires 1 being (it doesn't even need to have a brain, plants also have perception of time, variation of time itself requires the environment to be close to speed of lights and/or submitted to a strong gravitational field. The Law of Minimal Effort dictates that the variation of perception of time is the the process that takes less steps, and Occam's Razor says that if anyone is experiencing torture that seems like 3 days but took a moment, it was that person's perception of time that was changed, not time itself.

This is how science works and this is why your stupid pseudo-psychology fails at every step you make with it.

Lol, reality the is the world u perceive through what u accept as real and fake... Yet again, perception of reality =/= reality itself. I have the perception you are a stupid 12 year-old reject that hasn't acquired the concept of permanent object and fails so miserably at life that doesn't acknowledge where he's very, VERY wrong. Now tell me, is that the reality?

Just because 3 days passed in kakashis perception of reality while 1 instant passed in itachi, kisame, asuma and kurenais reality doesnt mean time was manipulated lol...Fixed and...

THAT WAS YOUR WHOLE POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE, YOU MORON! YOU ADVOCATED THAT TIME ITSELF WAS BEING MANIPULATED SO THAT KAKASHI COULD EXPERIENCE SUCH ADVENT.

The manipulation of time in even one reality is enough to make tsukuyomi a T/S genjutsu....Since there's only one reality in our universe and time wasn't manipulated in that specific point of the Universe (or else everybody there would experience Tsukuyomi), you're wrong. Accept it and move on.

Ur the retard calling time, a different kind of time.... U JACKASS!!!You're the one mixing up stuff. As far as I know, you could call shit "chocolate fudge" and eat it like there's no tomorrow. I mean, they're brown and smooth, they must be the same, amirite?

Manipulating the perception of time is manipulating time for the love all that is holy!!!!!!
So if I photoshop the picture of my face, my face will transform too? For the love of all that is profane, your logic is beyond repair.

Whats more important is never was it specified what form of time has to be manipulated to be dubbed a T/S jutsu....Perception of time is NOT a form of time, you moron, perception of time it a form of, Captain Obvious moment here, PERCEPTION. Perception of time is more akin of vision that time itself, even considering that perception of time depends on time itself.

WRONG! Facts are merely Info u Accept as true or real....Fact: Scientology was created by a not-so-good sci-fi writer that was in dire need for publicity and quick cash.

Not a fact: Xenu exists and wants your yummy thetans. But that doesn't stop Scientologists from accepting Xenu as true and real. Why is not a fact? Because, unlike your stupid definition of fact, facts are information that can be tested thoroughly and still be verifiable.

Apples falling from the tress due to gravity? Fact. Pigs flying without external aid? Not a fact. Time and time perception being different things? Fact. You having a clue about what you're saying? Not a fact, since it's been tested by many people and it failed every test.

Facts are facts, but with about 7 billion different realities and concepts of FACTS.. the word becomes far too ambiguous.7 billion of different PERCEPTIONS of reality doesn't make the word "fact" ambiguous, on the contrary, for that amount of variables, the word "fact" and its definition are very defined and commonplace. Just because you want to deny the Universe doesn't mean it will magically change to whatever bullshit you want it to be.

U INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THIS JUST SHOWS HOW SHALLOW U TRULY ARE... Your inability of writing English, matched with your failed attempt of being "deep and artsy smart", show how you, KYF, are truly shallow. So stop pretending you are on the same league of logic that seemingly everyone else is and admit you were talking from your ass.

Numinous

01-30-2011, 10:44 AM

Try again Numnutts....You're still in the closet, eh? We just discriminate stupidity, not sexuality.

My post didnt have much to do with SNs...... So... yea....... SO WHY DID YOU RESPOND TO THAT PARTICULAR QUOTE, YOU JACKASS?

Yea, well Einstein has nothing to do with ninja mind magic and the argument of u calling time, not time.....Suspension of Disbelief doesn't cover the application of physics and Einstein's theory of relativity simply says you don't know jack of what you're saying. So my response is completely appropriate, don't try to avoid it just because it shatters your whole argument.

Correction, u dont understand that Phenomenological time, is TIME u fool!!! You poor fool, Phenomenological time is not physical time, you're the one not getting it.

No, Time Exist ever since we conceived the concept..... Get it right!!!!Time exists since the birth of the Universe. So either you admit you're a Young Earth Creationist, which is still pretty retarded but actually has a point on denying time existing, or you just are denying time because... because. You don't even have a decent reason to deny time, unless you deem that categorizing an illusion as a Time/Space spell is much more important than accepting one of the most basic phenomena of the universe.

changing the numbers on a clock isnt changing time.... the analogy was crap! Avoiding the bullet again? You're not Neo, son, you can't pull a Matrix backdrop and expect the bullets to pass right above you. The clock example is the most basic and accurate analogies one can conceive, since changing the arms on the clock is changing the perception of time of the person looking at i, but doesn't change time itself, therefore providing you proof that the two are not the same and you're just full of shit.

If u took psychology then u would know ur a delusion fool then lol... Projection again? You just can't get enough of it, amirite? Project all you want, you're still the one that lacks a concept that BABIES acquire.

And that ur incapable of a objective point of view due to the childish emotions that rule ur psyche and the prejudice towards my every
idea.... Projection, projection everywhere!

But, like everyone else, no matter how smart u are, ur still limited by ur inability to perceive clearly due to the reasons Ive already stated..Yes, I'm limited by what I perceive, because if I can't perceive I can't acknowledge, but no, it's not because reality is what I perceive.

To Christians God exist.... He actually exist to them and yet because they truly believe he/it does... and yet also, some believe black holes, anitmatter ect, is BS despite our ability to perceive and deduce its existence yet, because they believe it, its true.... Thats whats called reality...And in every church of the Christian Belt a priest wet his pants in an heavenly climax. Man, why didn't they already recruited you to be their spokesman, slapping them biatches known as evolutionists and atheists?

Scientifically speaking, God doesn't exist because proof of its existence is yet to appear. But if, in the future, such proof was found, does that mean that God didn't exist until said proof appeared? No, He existed before that, like every species that is found YEARLY in the rain forests existed before they were found by Humanity, but we just didn't have proof of their existence.

That's why reality exists independently of perception, because if they were one and the same, the world would be full of incredibly stupid events.

Each person has theyre own reality and time flows differently in each reality depending on the person... Care to explain why our perception of time varies within the same person and can be shared by more than one person (using the clock analogy, if the prank caught 2 or 3 people) if they're the same as time?

And without our sensory organs and theyre ability to allow us to interact with what we call the physical world then no, how could those things exist if we dont?You will die (duh). Your organs will no longer be able to do anything but to be digested by other organisms. Are you saying that the physical world will end because you died? After all, you can't perceive it when you're dead, so if perception of reality and reality are the same, the world just would phase out of existence.

How do u know?? How can u even begin to understand what it means to exist?? Yea, because u believe u do and accept u do, thats the only reason.Don't try to be Descartes, because that wasn't what Descartes meant by "Cogito ergo sum" (I suppose that's what you're aiming to, but that's already overestimating your intelligence). Go read about it and the concept of the "Butterfly Dream", Descartes never, EVER, discarded the idea that physical reality didn't exist, he just pointed out that our perception of reality can be entirely wrong.

See, even philosophy slaps your sorry face.

Numinous

01-30-2011, 11:56 AM

Thats what u dont get.... Wether the earth is round or black holes really being out there is irrelevant! In reality, its the belief and acceptance that the earth is flat, ect ect that makes it real.... Damn them Alaskans, how can they survive without falling in the IMPEDING CORNER OF DOOM?!!

Science marches on, believing that the Earth is flat will never make it real because it was already disproved by continuous analysis of the reality.

Even if its not to others... Its the same with god, Satan, ect.....I think somebody wants to pull their own agenda really desperately.

U merely believe blackholes exist because u were told they did... U have never actually seen and touched one yet u believe they are real.... why??? Because u accept the information u have been given....Or SK could go to an astronomical institute, spend a deluge of millions of dollars for the institute to stop current activities, look for black hole activity and point out the telescope for SK to see. If there's a very defined way to acknowledge black holes that everyone can do (given they have the resources), they exist, there is no space for buts in this. If you don't want to accept what is rather obvious, that is your choice, but don't act like it isn't deeply wrong.

Dont skew my words to try and work work u in ur argument..O'rly? So then how do you explain we can perceive that the Sun and other stars are older than us if we can't have perception of such before we even have perception? That's how cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs you are.

Whos to say Consciousness doesnt transcend mere "life" as u put it... But anyways, how could it...???^
|
And this is how you can spot a person that has 0 knowledge of what they're doing: they create a paradox that has no reason to be in the first place.

Do you think the atoms decay merely because thats what u believe ur observing.... That is true, in every lunch break I get I like to see Uranium decaying into Lead. It's pretty!

(It's sarcasm, if you didn't notice.)

Says the tard... What? I want you to have my ugly
I want you to have my disease
I want you to have my everything
As long as it’s free
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

I want you to have my drama
The touch of my stupidity
I want you to to adore my idiocy
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

I want you to have my horror
I want you to have my design
‘Cause I'm a criminal
As long as what is mine is yours
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection, num num!

I want you to have my Psycho
Because I'm stuck on a Vertigo stick
Want you in my Rear Window
Oh, baby I'm in the closet.
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection,
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection.

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
(‘Cause I’m a free bitch, baby!)
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
I’m a free bitch baby

I want Projection
And I want you to have my revenge
I want Projection
I don’t wanna be friends

J'veux ton abat-jour
Et je veux ton alfange
J'veux ton abat-jour
I don't wanna be friends

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence

(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
(Want your superior intelligence)
Crushed by superior intelligence
(Want your superior intelligence)

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

It happened because we accept it through the finding of bones, while other like religious fanatics dont accept it, thus it didnt happen... have fun with that!Newsflash, KYF, religious fanatics no longer disbelieve fossils. They just say that God didn't care enough for the dinosaurs to put them in the Arc. Yet another analogy fail by KYF.

The perception of time changes due to the lack of consciousness smart ass lol... Time isnt being altered the perception is....Oh, wow, that isn't shotting your feet, that's shooting your groin.

What u just said is impossible!!! And thus proves ur not just a dumbass, but a hypocrite for calling me one....I'm out of witty ways to point out the projection on this quote.

LMAO, ur comparing the reflexes of a fly to time now.... WTF! Since reflexes depend on time, YES.

(assuming aliens dont exist or do they because ur dumbass believes they do)
Hey guys, remember the graph in the spam area that correlates the amount of pirates and global warming? KYF s trying to do the same, correlating the existence of aliens with the existence of time. Thing is, pirate graph is funny, you're not.

LOL, this is just ignantanous.... (yes I made my own word for u)Liar, liar, pants on fire? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ignantatious) And you don't even know how to spell it... fail at its best.

whats even worse is kishi says it manipulates timeNo, he doesn't.

The falsities of ur realities..... ^
|
And this how you catch an hypocrite: saying that everyone has different realities that have different variants and calling some of them "false".

Well I'm done for now, let's see if KYF still has a drop of dignity to shut the fuck up about time.

KillerNN

01-30-2011, 01:41 PM

Way to not disprove anything I just said. So are you actually saying science doesn't exist now. Because scientifically speaking, if you can prove there are certain principles/patterns (can't find the right words here) that things always happen in, then it's assumed they will continue to happen that way even if we aren't around to see it. That is unless, future evidence is presented to counter that argument.

So yeah, your a dumbass. If a tree falls it's gonna make a sound, as long as it's under the same conditions that previous examples were observed in. Now if you want to change factors up that's different. If you were to say "What if a tree were to fall in the vacuum of space? Would it make a sounds." That would be different since there isn't air in space to transmit sound.

Basically your answer for the tree analogy is
http://www.randomfunnypicture.com/pictures/674dog-i-dunno-lol.jpg

THIS!!! YOU JUST KILLED YOUR OWN ARGUMENT AND DON'T EVEN KNOW IT(yet).

So the minds PERCEPTION of time is altered in a dream state, and not the TIME itself. What do you think genjutsu is??? Illusions...yes, but how. You basically take your chakra use it to alter the enemies brain. Thus you alter their 5 basic senses. But that's only a tiny aspect of the brains functions. Control over the organs, memories, and yes even the perception of time are controlled by the brain. If you master the ability to control the minds perception of time, you can make 2 seconds feel like 72 hours, which is EXACTLY WHAT TSUKUYOMI DOES. Thus you just proved it's not a T/S jutsu.

Sucks to be you right now doesn't it.

So your saying that's wrong. You mean my hour is 58 minutes while another guys hour is 66 minutes, while another guys hour is 106 minutes, etc.....

I don't think so. Fuck I know so.

Pay attention here, and try to understand. Our existence is a 3 dimension world traveling through the 4th dimension of time. Our position in the present is at one specific place in time. Now draw a 3 dimensional line from the past to the present, forwards to the future. This change in your location during these time periods is called movement.

If that dumbed down enough for you. Now listen up, here's where it gets tricky (for you I mean).

Say a dog is sitting around under the sun just chilling. As the sun moves, his shadow will change positions. The animal won't see this as a threat, because he's aware that the movement isn't significant to him at all. Now if something moved at him lighting fast, he'd react. This is because he's aware of the velocity of the movement compared to the amount of time that has passed.

So yeah, animals are instinctively aware of the existence of time. If not they and nothing else could function.

Glad to see your imagination is of some good use. What would we do if it weren't for you creating new words for us to use. The English language would be sooooo boring without you here. -___-

Glad we finally agree I'm right. Good job
Bro, I was tired and this was tl;dr at the moment, but I quoted because retarded dog is funny. I've read it now. :p
No one quoted my post, i feel lonely... someone put the forever alone guy here :(
Don't worry bro.
Damn them Alaskans, how can they survive without falling in the IMPEDING CORNER OF DOOM?!!

Science marches on, believing that the Earth is flat will never make it real because it was already disproved by continuous analysis of the reality.

I think somebody wants to pull their own agenda really desperately.

Or SK could go to an astronomical institute, spend a deluge of millions of dollars for the institute to stop current activities, look for black hole activity and point out the telescope for SK to see. If there's a very defined way to acknowledge black holes that everyone can do (given they have the resources), they exist, there is no space for buts in this. If you don't want to accept what is rather obvious, that is your choice, but don't act like it isn't deeply wrong.

O'rly? So then how do you explain we can perceive that the Sun and other stars are older than us if we can't have perception of such before we even have perception? That's how cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs you are.

^
|
And this is how you can spot a person that has 0 knowledge of what they're doing: they create a paradox that has no reason to be in the first place.

That is true, in every lunch break I get I like to see Uranium decaying into Lead. It's pretty!

(It's sarcasm, if you didn't notice.)

I want you to have my ugly
I want you to have my disease
I want you to have my everything
As long as it’s free
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

I want you to have my drama
The touch of my stupidity
I want you to to adore my idiocy
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

I want you to have my horror
I want you to have my design
‘Cause I'm a criminal
As long as what is mine is yours
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection, num num!

I want you to have my Psycho
Because I'm stuck on a Vertigo stick
Want you in my Rear Window
Oh, baby I'm in the closet.
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection,
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection.

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
(‘Cause I’m a free bitch, baby!)
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
I’m a free bitch baby

I want Projection
And I want you to have my revenge
I want Projection
I don’t wanna be friends

J'veux ton abat-jour
Et je veux ton alfange
J'veux ton abat-jour
I don't wanna be friends

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence

(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
(Want your superior intelligence)
Crushed by superior intelligence
(Want your superior intelligence)

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Newsflash, KYF, religious fanatics no longer disbelieve fossils. They just say that God didn't care enough for the dinosaurs to put them in the Arc. Yet another analogy fail by KYF.

Oh, wow, that isn't shotting your feet, that's shooting your groin.

I'm out of witty ways to point out the projection on this quote.

Since reflexes depend on time, YES.

Hey guys, remember the graph in the spam area that correlates the amount of pirates and global warming? KYF s trying to do the same, correlating the existence of aliens with the existence of time. Thing is, pirate graph is funny, you're not.

Liar, liar, pants on fire? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ignantatious) And you don't even know how to spell it... fail at its best.

No, he doesn't.

^
|
And this how you catch an hypocrite: saying that everyone has different realities that have different variants and calling some of them "false".

Well I'm done for now, let's see if KYF still has a drop of dignity to shut the fuck up about time.

QFT and badassery at its best.

The Special One

01-30-2011, 01:50 PM

Holy having hell! I was having a stressed as fuck out day until I read the past few pages...

KYF needs to post more, give him a blue ribbon for effort alone.

ask me anything

01-30-2011, 06:57 PM

Holy shit!!! That's the most comprehensive smack down I've ever seen. 3 fucking posts of brilliance. I stand in utter awe. Kudos to you Num.

I want you to have my ugly
I want you to have my disease
I want you to have my everything
As long as it’s free
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

I want you to have my drama
The touch of my stupidity
I want you to to adore my idiocy
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

I want you to have my horror
I want you to have my design
‘Cause I'm a criminal
As long as what is mine is yours
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection, num num!

I want you to have my Psycho
Because I'm stuck on a Vertigo stick
Want you in my Rear Window
Oh, baby I'm in the closet.
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection,
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection.

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
(‘Cause I’m a free bitch, baby!)
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
I’m a free bitch baby

I want Projection
And I want you to have my revenge
I want Projection
I don’t wanna be friends

J'veux ton abat-jour
Et je veux ton alfange
J'veux ton abat-jour
I don't wanna be friends

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence

(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
(Want your superior intelligence)
Crushed by superior intelligence
(Want your superior intelligence)

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

THIS. Holy shit, I laughed so hard at this. Lady Gaga was a very appropriate choice of lyrics to use.

Oh, wow, that isn't shooting your feet, that's shooting your groin.

QFT. I would seriously like to see KYF try to explain his way out of this. He completely killed his argument with that one statement. I guess an idiot is his own worst enemy.

Since reflexes depend on time, YES.
Exactly.

Liar, liar, pants on fire? (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ignantatious) And you don't even know how to spell it... fail at its best.
LOL

And this how you catch an hypocrite: saying that everyone has different realities that have different variants and calling some of them "false".

Well I'm done for now, let's see if KYF still has a drop of dignity to shut the fuck up about time.

Hypocrisy indeed. I'm surprised kyf hasn't responded. Yet this is typical of his behavior.

I suppose by the rules of "his reality" as long as you don't acknowledge your failure then it didn't happen. That could explain why after years of verbal abuse from just about every reasonable forum member, he's still able to present himself as the infallible kyf, that our "lesser minds" (lol) just can't grasp.

stubborn_d0nkey

01-31-2011, 03:40 AM

I want you to have my ugly
I want you to have my disease
I want you to have my everything
As long as it’s free
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

I want you to have my drama
The touch of my stupidity
I want you to to adore my idiocy
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

I want you to have my horror
I want you to have my design
‘Cause I'm a criminal
As long as what is mine is yours
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection, num num!

I want you to have my Psycho
Because I'm stuck on a Vertigo stick
Want you in my Rear Window
Oh, baby I'm in the closet.
I want Projection
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection,
Pro-jec-tion
I want Projection.

You know that I want you
And you know that I need you
(‘Cause I’m a free bitch, baby!)
I want it bad
Your superior intelligence

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence.

Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
Bitchy whining like crazy
Cry-cry, retarded baby
Work your
I’m a free bitch baby

I want Projection
And I want you to have my revenge
I want Projection
I don’t wanna be friends

J'veux ton abat-jour
Et je veux ton alfange
J'veux ton abat-jour
I don't wanna be friends

Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
Crushed by superior intelligence

(I don't wanna be friends)
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!
Oh-oh-oooh-oh-oh!
(Want your superior intelligence)
Crushed by superior intelligence
(Want your superior intelligence)

I want you to have my moping
And I want you to have my revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance
(Oh-oh-oh-oh-oooh!)
I want you to have my moping
All my love is revenge
I only know how to write a bad romance

going in my sig (dont worry, spoiler tagged!). But damn, I wish I knew how to sing!

fuck fuck fuck! its too long!

Numinous

01-31-2011, 07:34 AM

fuck fuck fuck! its too long!

And I didn't include the gibberish parts of the song (because while Gaga is melodic, KYF sounds like a detergent) or it'd be longer.

But you can always cut a good size of it, since, like all mainstream pop, is repetitive.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-31-2011, 05:31 PM

[QUOTE]Wow... just wow. Baby KYF still thinks he knows anything about what he's talking about. He's so damn cute I'm going to spend my Latin o make him cry and probably leave the forum to spare us from his insanity.

You, me and every poster in this thread exist because we're made of matter and energy, not because people can perceive us. If existence was dependable of perception and not matter & energy, NOTHING WOULD EXIST. That's how completely insane your thought process is.

U still dont get it!!! The very energy, matter u speak of us being made of is only a deduction due to perception... Without the ability to perceive the energy, matter.... what would we be then numi...?? Perception and beliefs determine ur entire world... This concept of the physical external world is merely a construct of ur senses, put together by ur perception and colored by ur Emotions, Prejudice, religious beliefs and preconceived notions.....

(note Im only going to quote some thing because u write way too fucking much!!!!!!!!)

Sound is a mechanical wave that is the result of an oscillation of pressure of a given object. Since the very fact of the tree falling would cause an oscillation of pressure, it would make a sound. That's also why we can speak and hear: our vocal chords experience oscillations of pressures that result from muscle work and the air passing between the lungs and the nose/mouth, while the eardrum receives the sound and passes it through the ossicles and then to the brain. High School Physics and Biology just proved you wrong.

Ur missing the POINT! SOUND has to be Detected by the sensory organ, to be classified as a sound..... And the question is wether a sound is made with no one able to HEAR it...

Sound is heard.... So, again, no!

I know reality exists, but I don't believe God exists. At least I am 100% sure I know the difference.

U know reality exists, but god doesnt??? OK, with all ur prattling from before, Im not sure u know what reality even is....

KYF, if there is anything that is a constant in the Universe, is the amount of energy+matter+antimatter (following Lavoisier's principle that is yet to be disproved). Time, electromagnetic force, nuclear forces, gravity, heat, pressure, volume, entropy and many, many others phenomena of the Universe can be altered, but not that the amount of energy+matter+antimatter.

And you'll find that, the more basic the phenomena is, the harder is to vary it, because more and more reactions depend on that phenomena. That's why the amount of energy+matter+antimatter is the ultimate constant: everything that exists depends of it, even time (since time dilatation derives from the speed of light and/or gravity, 2 phenomena derived from energy+matter+antimatter).

All the knowledge u speak of is a product of others perceptions and ability to deduce theyre reality around them.... Its is only through perception that these forms of measurements are made, ect ect... Why cant u see this?

That's where Occam's Razor and the Law of Minimal Effort (it's not a gag for work, it's a very real scientific law) kick in: the Law of Minimal Effort says that the Universe ALWAYS works in processes that take less steps as possible, and Occam's Razor compliments it by stating that the answer that requires less steps is the most logical one.

Now let's take it into context: variation of perception of time only requires 1 being (it doesn't even need to have a brain, plants also have perception of time, variation of time itself requires the environment to be close to speed of lights and/or submitted to a strong gravitational field. The Law of Minimal Effort dictates that the variation of perception of time is the the process that takes less steps, and Occam's Razor says that if anyone is experiencing torture that seems like 3 days but took a moment, it was that person's perception of time that was changed, not time itself.

Plants have perception now?? Seriously?? R U fucking high!!!!!

From dic.com itself "the act or faculty of apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding."

Plants have no senses and damn sure have no cognition lol... they live by means of Photosynthesis, end of story...

Occams Razor suggests tsukuyomi did in fact alter time for three days in the enemies reality.... which is all it takes to be a T/S jutsu... all one needs is to alter the time of even one reality... Ur just about it not being real, yet the mental damage, spiritual break down and memories of torture for three days is real.... Ur stuck on the altering of the external physical world which in itself is a product of perception and the conscious mind.... So either way, its a T/S genjutsu as Ive been stating...

This is how science works and this is why your stupid pseudo-psychology fails at every step you make with it.

Yet again, perception of reality =/= reality itself. I have the perception you are a stupid 12 year-old reject that hasn't acquired the concept of permanent object and fails so miserably at life that doesn't acknowledge where he's very, VERY wrong. Now tell me, is that the reality?

Thats ur sad reality where all ur Pretentious statements are true and ur not a whinny delusion mongering ass licker....

Fixed and...

THAT WAS YOUR WHOLE POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE, YOU MORON! YOU ADVOCATED THAT TIME ITSELF WAS BEING MANIPULATED SO THAT KAKASHI COULD EXPERIENCE SUCH ADVENT.

Time was being manipulated u jackass... However, just because its the time of only a single reality u claim it doesn't count which is retarded! Manipulating any form of time should classify a jutsu as a T/S, but ur jackassery knows no bounds so u refuse to accept so an easy concept....

Since there's only one reality in our universe and time wasn't manipulated in that specific point of the Universe (or else everybody there would experience Tsukuyomi), you're wrong. Accept it and move on.

Ur an idiot, thinking theres only one reality... If there was only one reality then everyones would see things the exact same way, experience things the exact same way.... Ur just too blinded by ur own mental handicaps to see....

You're the one mixing up stuff. As far as I know, you could call shit "chocolate fudge" and eat it like there's no tomorrow. I mean, they're brown and smooth, they must be the same, amirite?

Not exactly.... the sensory ability of people does vary cause of diseases, defect, ect ect... again... No, Urnotrite....

So if I photoshop the picture of my face, my face will transform too? For the love of all that is profane, your logic is beyond repair.

Ur face is more then a construct of a nose, mouth, eyes, eye brows, skin and features...

and Im not sure the context of the question and dont feel like going back three pages among all the freaking writing u did, to find out....

Yes, u write way too fucking much....

Perception of time is NOT a form of time, you moron, perception of time it a form of, Captain Obvious moment here, PERCEPTION. Perception of time is more akin of vision that time itself, even considering that perception of time depends on time itself.

Lol, thats an awfully ignorant thought and in no way is time akin to sight... See, u cant even understand perception yet u bitch at me about it, really??

Time is change, a concept we created based on experience and awareness of change perceived by the mind, not just seen from the eyes...

Fact: Scientology was created by a not-so-good sci-fi writer that was in dire need for publicity and quick cash.

Not a fact: Xenu exists and wants your yummy thetans. But that doesn't stop Scientologists from accepting Xenu as true and real. Why is not a fact? Because, unlike your stupid definition of fact, facts are information that can be tested thoroughly and still be verifiable.

Wrong again! Facts are unfortunately mere info we accept as real due to our inherent mental handicaps of "emotion, prejudice, religious beliefs and preconceived notions"... which render everything subjective...

Well, except to a very few who can actually overcome these handicaps and see things clearly without the fog of such handicaps...

Apples falling from the tress due to gravity? Fact. Pigs flying without external aid? Not a fact. Time and time perception being different things? Fact. You having a clue about what you're saying? Not a fact, since it's been tested by many people and it failed every test.

7 billion of different PERCEPTIONS of reality doesn't make the word "fact" ambiguous, on the contrary, for that amount of variables, the word "fact" and its definition are very defined and commonplace. Just because you want to deny the Universe doesn't mean it will magically change to whatever bullshit you want it to be.

Unfortunately it does!!! U can believe there is "truth" and "fact" in the world all u want, but one day u will grow up and realize its all just an illusion created through ur acceptance of them.... Granted there are measurable facts, but they too are mere constructs of perception and cognition...

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-31-2011, 05:32 PM

Your inability of writing English, matched with your failed attempt of being "deep and artsy smart", show how you, KYF, are truly shallow. So stop pretending you are on the same league of logic that seemingly everyone else is and admit you were talking from your ass.

Lol, says the guys who believes gaara uses fuuton despite the lack of evidence, but refuses to accept otherwise because of some preconceived notion of shukakugaara using it twice... Where ur so called Logic and reasoning in believing gaara has fuuton or the fact that tsukuyomi manipulates time (no matter what form), but shouldnt be a T/S jutsu.....

Its as Ive said, Ur so called facts ^^^^^are merely ur beliefs and nothing more... with no evidence to back them. See what "facts" and "truth" has become...

kael03

01-31-2011, 05:39 PM

I believe you don't exist. Does that mean you really don't exist?

Please, KYF. Answer this post already.

stubborn_d0nkey

01-31-2011, 05:52 PM

Please, KYF. Answer this post already.

How can he if he doesn't exist?

kael03

01-31-2011, 06:01 PM

How can he if he doesn't exist?

Very true.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-31-2011, 06:32 PM

Please, KYF. Answer this post already.

No U do not Truely believe I dont exist... Otherwise U wouldnt try and communicate with me now would u.... U do believe I exist so the question has no relevance...

Asking a question of existence and truly believing are two different things....

enough with this, someone create a match.......

Thor

01-31-2011, 06:37 PM

kael03

01-31-2011, 06:41 PM

KYF just stop with the tenth grade philosophy that some weed wacked out teacher told you... it's starting to get pathetic...

Starting? I believe "pathetic" has long since passed us by.

do you actually believe you are more enlightned than everyone else here? Do you actually believe that we, with our combined proofs that you are wrong are still right despite overwhelming evidence?

In a word: "yes"

Are you so afraid of being wrong that you actually believe that everything that you, and only you are saying is right?? Do you actually fell that special!?

He can't be wrong though. He has "MANGA FAKTZ!!!" to back him up. Aside from the fact that these "faktz" completely destroy his "theories" instead of helping him, his own actions discredit anything he's ever done (for example: bitching at me for using naruto wikia with a list of Space/Time jutsus and then going on to using wikipedia and not even understanding what it is he's trying to use).

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-31-2011, 06:46 PM

KYF just stop with the tenth grade philosophy that some weed wacked out teacher told you... it's starting to get pathetic... do you actually believe you are more enlightned than everyone else here? Do you actually believe that we, with our combined proofs that you are wrong are still right despite overwhelming evidence?

Are you so afraid of being wrong that you actually believe that everything that you, and only you are saying is right?? Do you actually fell that special!?

1. No, Im not trying to say Im more enlightened, deeper, smarter, more intelligent then anyone... Im just trying to point something out...

2. Hunh? What combined proofs? Since when are yall right with ur nonexistent evidence???

3. U clearly have no Idea whats been going on here do ya!?! (dont answer its rhetorical..)

I said enough of this stuff, make a match....

Dagoro

01-31-2011, 06:47 PM

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4254/2195158jdmprxw.gif

kael03

01-31-2011, 06:49 PM

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4254/2195158jdmprxw.gif

A normal post by KYF, nothing impressive or confusing (other than how he's able to keep breathing with the amount of brain damage/death he's suffered).

Konnaha_yellow_flash

01-31-2011, 06:55 PM

He can't be wrong though. He has "MANGA FAKTZ!!!" to back him up. Aside from the fact that these "faktz" completely destroy his "theories" instead of helping him, his own actions discredit anything he's ever done (for example: bitching at me for using naruto wikia with a list of Space/Time jutsus and then going on to using wikipedia and not even understanding what it is he's trying to use).

The rest was irrelevant, but WTF are u talking about here^^^

U are so full of shit its coming out of ur ears! Any theory I create is supported by the manga otherwise I wouldnt of created the theory in the first place....

And yes, using narutiwiki is BS... U need to use the Databooks or the manga in a debate which is why ur a dumbass...

Ur just like Numi... U bitch about my theories yet some have already come true (Yin/yang chakra theory, tentails in the moon theory, minatos FTG using smoke theory, ect ect....) And thats only the beginning.... compared to the one theory of sasuke with the other half of the kyuubi.. Im still 4/1 with others just on the verge of becoming canonz...

meanwhile wheres ur theories?? How come none of urs come true? Its because u dont make theories u just bitch about others.... And thats just sad.....

Numinous

01-31-2011, 07:05 PM

U still dont get it!!! The very energy, matter u speak of us being made of is only a deduction due to perception... Without the ability to perceive the energy, matter.... what would we be then numi...??

Senseless? Blind people don't perceive visual data, deaf people don't perceive sound, people without the sense of smell don't perceive odors, people without the sense of taste don't perceive taste, a person wrapped in Styrofoam can't perceive touch. You see, they still exist and still have the organs that should be perceiving the world around them.

Perception and beliefs determine ur entire world... Ur an idiot, thinking theres only one reality... If there was only one reality then everyones would see things the exact same way, experience things the exact same way.... Ur just too blinded by ur own mental handicaps to see....So if I believe that I can fly, I can fly? See, this is ridiculous. If that was true, why can't we change the mechanics of our reality? I mean, it's my reality, if I want to fly I should be able to bend the mechanics enough to allow me to do so. But I can't, because I share the same reality with trillions of beings that are subjected to the same mechanics. Now tell me, how does everyone and their mothers know that the World Trade Center came down on September 11, 2001 if we had different realities? Theoretically, in my reality it could not happen, I could still go to NYC and look at the towers in one piece.

Occam's Razor favors only one shared reality over everyone being in their particular reality.

This concept of the physical external world is merely a construct of ur senses, put together by ur perception and colored by ur Emotions, Prejudice, religious beliefs and preconceived notions.....So why would the hell I want Justin Bieber, Jersey Shore, Scientology, Creationism and other atrocities in my reality? For me to hate them for the sake of hating? Wouldn't I prefer my reality more suited to my tastes where I could leave in permanent bliss? Why would I want to be sad, angered, sorrowful, etc?

Reality is a bitch, deal with it.

(note Im only going to quote some thing because u write way too fucking much!!!!!!!!)Yes, u write way too fucking much....The amount of things that I write in our arguments are directly proportional to the amount of insults to the intelligence of others you make.

Ur missing the POINT! SOUND has to be Detected by the sensory organ,No, since deaf people can't detect sound but they have the notion that sound exists because, you know, it's a mechanical wave (you never felt your chest resonating to loud music? That's sound acting like the mechanical wave it is without being what we categorically call "sound").

And the question is wether a sound is made with no one able to HEAR it...It is answered by the explanation I gave and you just quoted. If you don't comprehend, too bad, it just says that you can't comprehend basic physics.

Sound is heard.... So, again, no!Sound is a mechanical wave, so yes!

U know reality exists, but god doesnt??? OK, with all ur prattling from before, Im not sure u know what reality even is.... Didn't I told you guys KYF wanted to pull his own agenda? I'm sorry, X-boy, but I laugh at your poor attempt of calling me insane because I don't believe in God and I won't buy that guy from you, of all people. I just pointed out I know the difference between existence and belief, and you, like the whiny brat you are, didn't accept.

All the knowledge u speak of is a product of others perceptions and ability to deduce theyre reality around them.... Its is only through perception that these forms of measurements are made, ect ect... @ bolded: I have tested and worked with Lavoisier's principle and it is true. It's my own experience that is shared by others, therefore we share the same reality

Why cant u see this?Because it's ridiculous would suffice.

Plants have perception now?? Seriously?? R U fucking high!!!!! From dic.com itself "the act or faculty of apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding."

Plants have no senses and damn sure have no cognition lol... they live by means of Photosynthesis, end of story...ROFLMAO

Oh boy, I have to share this with my biology partners, they'll piss their pants with all the laughter.

Newsflash, KYF: ALL LIVING BEINGS HAVE PERCEPTION. Yes, even bacteria. Because, without perception they wouldn't be able to survive since they couldn't acknowledge the reality around them. Plants not only have perception of time, they have perception of luminosity, heat, humidity, acidity and others. That's why each species of plant is confined to a niche ecosystem and will only thrive on that ecosystem (or in one that can satisfy the plant's needs).

Occams Razor suggests tsukuyomi did in fact alter time for three days in the enemies reality.... No, it doesn't. Alteration of perception of time is easier than alteration of time itself, therefore Occam's Razor is on my side.

which is all it takes to be a T/S jutsu...Yes, it'd be a T/S jutsu if it altered time, but it doesn't.

all one needs is to alter the time of even one reality... Since there is only one reality and time wasn't altered in it, it's still not a T/S jutsu.

Ur just about it not being real, yet the mental damage, spiritual break down and memories of torture for three days is real....I already clarified this one to superninja, altering the perception of time would cause exhaustion to the brain and the nervous system in general due to the overload of signals that had to be sent to cause the deep alteration of perception of time, making Kakashi faint due to said exhaustion.

And if the torture was real, wouldn't Kakashi be full of wounds caused by the Kunai and lots of loss of blood because of them? He did not have them? For shame, KYF!

Ur stuck on the altering of the external physical world which in itself is a product of perception and the conscious mind.... Because it's relevant. If the physical world is dependent of perception, altering perception would be altering the physical world. Basic logic, son.

So either way, its a T/S genjutsu as Ive been stating...How many no's do you have to receive until it reaches your brain? Raising you must have been an hell of a job if you kept deeming a "no" unacceptable.

Thats ur sad reality where all ur Pretentious statements are true and ur not a whinny delusion mongering ass licker....Since people thanked me for my posts and none of yours and I accept those people as real, I think the one reality we share backs me up and shits on you.

Time was being manipulated u jackass... However, just because its the time of only a single reality u claim it doesn't count which is retarded! Manipulating any form of time should classify a jutsu as a T/S, but ur jackassery knows no bounds so u refuse to accept so an easy concept....Easy concept? How about a wrong concept? There's only one reality that we all share, therefore changing how time works in our reality means that we all experience it, directly or indirectly. Now since perception of time is up to each individual, messing it up is not the work of the spacetime continnum being bent, is the work of an illusion.

Not exactly.... the sensory ability of people does vary cause of diseases, defect, ect ect... again... No, Urnotrite....So you don't deny you call shit "chocolate fudge" and eat it like there's not tomorrow? Nice knowing that, it gives me a more accurate perception of you. Now if I believe in that, will that make it real? If so, I want a pic of you with my nick on your forehead while you're eating your "chocolate fudge". Because, by fuck's sake, if I can bend reality by just perceiving it in a particular way, I'll use that to all the extent of my power!

Ur face is more then a construct of a nose, mouth, eyes, eye brows, skin and features...

and Im not sure the context of the question and dont feel like going back three pages among all the freaking writing u did, to find out....Photoshop has the picture of me, which is the perception of myself. If I alter the perception of myself, in your logic, I should be changing my reality. Which it doesn't, therefore you better stop your shenanigans.

Lol, thats an awfully ignorant thought and in no way is perception of time akin to sight...Funny, since both are the product of the brain decoding the information that it received from the sensory organs that perceived the reality around them.

See, u cant even understand perception yet u bitch at me about it, really??IRONY!

Time is change, a concept we created based on experience and awareness of change perceived by the mind, not just seen from the eyes...And way for my point to fly right above your head.

Numinous

01-31-2011, 07:06 PM

Wrong again! Facts are unfortunately mere info we accept as real due to our inherent mental handicaps of "emotion, prejudice, religious beliefs and preconceived notions"... which render everything subjective...Again, science (and English language, for that matter) disagrees with your bullshit and, since I have much more qualifications than you to talk on the matter, my definition of "fact" is better supported than yours.

Well, except to a very few who can actually overcome these handicaps and see things clearly without the fog of such handicaps...
-.-'

Stop pushing your stupid God-tastic agenda!

Unfortunately it does!!! U can believe there is "truth" and "fact" in the world all u want, but one day u will grow up and realize its all just an illusion created through ur acceptance of them... I'm a nihilist, but holy shit, Batman, not even Nietzsche would deny existence so vehemently. I mean, I believe that nothing has a purpose but to exist, but you just had to cross the line and believe that nothing exists. How can you even smile knowing that all is but smoke & mirrors?

Lol, says the guys who believes gaara uses fuuton despite the lack of evidence, but refuses to accept otherwise because of some preconceived notion of shukakugaara using it twice... Where ur so called Logic and reasoning in believing gaara has fuuton or the fact that tsukuyomi manipulates time (no matter what form), but shouldnt be a T/S jutsu.....

Its as Ive said, Ur so called facts ^^^^^are merely ur beliefs and nothing more... with no evidence to back them. See what "facts" and "truth" has become...You love strawmans, don't you? The manga backs me up, science backs me p, anyone sane backs me up. Cry, baby KYF, cry, that's the only thing you're good for.

How come none of urs come true? Its because u dont make theories u just bitch about others.... And thats just sad..... At least I make original fiction instead of getting others' fiction deeply wrong, so how's that, biatch?

ACt

01-31-2011, 07:14 PM

(Reads a few of the recent posts.)

http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4654800/eh-Get-off-my-lawn.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Bachelor-Grandpa

Goddamn kids...

superninja

01-31-2011, 07:15 PM

I have a feeling this thread has gone astray with this 7 pages long arguments that are tiresome to read. So lets discuss manga fights here guys.

Here, I have been wondering how much of a difference would Killerbee and Naruto make on a battlefield and would they be vulnerable or would they be invincible?

Naruto with Kakashi's division vs 7 edo swordsmen plus edo Haku and those other two edos.
Killerbee with Gara division vs 4 kages (but we don't know kage abilities so)

KillerNN

01-31-2011, 07:22 PM

(Reads a few of the recent posts.)

http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4654800/eh-Get-off-my-lawn.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Bachelor-Grandpa

Goddamn kids...

That is how I picture you ACT, all jokes aside. A few days ago an old guy with a cat on his shoulder walked out of his house on my way home from school, and my first thought was to go "Whats going on Chewtoy!". But then I remembered you are Canadian so it couldn't have been you.

kael03

01-31-2011, 07:24 PM

The rest was irrelevant, but WTF are u talking about here^^^

I didn't stutter my words so I said exactly what was written.

U are so full of shit its coming out of ur ears! Any theory I create is supported by the manga otherwise I wouldnt of created the theory in the first place....

And yet, you have. Sasuke containing the other half of the kyuubi chakra ring a bell? Manga pages stated, in several chapters I might add, that Minato sealed half of the kyuubi chakra with his soul in the Death God jutsu. This was established well before you "created" that "theory". Let's not forget you claiming Guy can punch a hole in the space/time continuum and create a black hole, which is physically impossible since it takes an immense amount of pressure to create something like that.

And yes, using narutiwiki is BS... U need to use the Databooks or the manga in a debate which is why ur a dumbass...

So is failing to use wikipedia, which you have done in the past. That not only makes you a dumbass, but a hypocrite.

Ur just like Numi... U bitch about my theories yet some have already come true (Yin/yang chakra theory, tentails in the moon theory, minatos FTG using smoke theory, ect ect....) And thats only the beginning.... compared to the one theory of sasuke with the other half of the kyuubi.. Im still 4/1 with others just on the verge of becoming canonz...

...what? Was there a coherent thought?

Also, how does Minato's FTG use smoke? When was that ever stated? Oh...wait...it wasn't. Minato's FTG uses a seal to reverse summon him to a particular spot (his kunai, a seal he placed elsewhere, etc.). No where has it been stated that he uses smoke for FTG. It also wouldn't make sense considering his nickname (Konoha's Yellow Flash) is based off the streak left behind by his blond hair when he teleports.

meanwhile wheres ur theories??

I never made any.

How come none of urs come true?

See above.

Its because u dont make theories u just bitch about others....

I only bitch about the ones that defy all logic and ignore all evidence to the contrary (contrary to your belief, I have posted evidence to kill your own theories, as have you. You ignored everything I/others say because you have to be right, no matter how idiotic you look). For example, Human Rasengan, you remember him? He decided to come up with this whack theory that Tsunade is Naruto's grandmother, making Naruto part Senju. Now, I used the timeline based on Naruto events to debunk this theory. His theory defied the logic of the series, and I called him out on it. Your "theories" defy the logic of the series, so I'll call you out on them.

And thats just sad.....

I think it's sad that you keep creating these bizarre theories that make absolutely no sense and you use evidence to shoot yourself in the foot.

Edit: Mistake on the nickname