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NeoKakarott023
04-06-2011, 05:02 PM
/headdesk. Holy fuck I didn't think anyone could be this dense.

For the last time, there was NO CONTEXT to that statement. That statement wasn't set in a particular time or fight. It was a blanket statement of her skills by comparing them to one of the best genjutsu users in Konoha. Kishi stated, in his own work, that Kurenai's skill with genjutsu rivals Itachi's. The genjutsu you keep alluding to Itachi flat out stated was below him, I've never argued that fact. Itachi said "a genjutsu of that level is useless against me", and then proceeded to say "as expected of Kurenai" in a form of praise when she broke his counter genjutsu, which means "BITCH STEP UP YOUR GAME!". He was telling her to stop holding back and take him seriously.

You keep fanboying Itachi when the damn author has proved you wrong. Give it up already.

Or he'll subtract whatever power vs. the opponent he desires to win, and call it plausible and ask you too agree with his hypothesis. How do I know, I USED TO DO THE SHIT ALL THE TIME. But like most things I evolved, stopped fanticizing so much, started dealing in faktz like them or not, and accept what is, and what is not. Example 2 people posted databook entries proving their point. Until u find, then pass on your theory of Hyuugas being immune to genjutsu I wouln't speak on that ever again, it would mean your credibility is nothing, your facts are infected with fantasy. This is like 'the Madness' in Soul Eater, you don't seem to know ur doing this.

kael03
04-06-2011, 05:06 PM
I noticed that he was trying to take away Kurenai's specialty to give a genin a shot at winning. And sorry, but until it's otherwise stated, the Byakugan doesn't render the user immune to genjutsu. The only thing it does is allow the use to see the chakra disruption on a genjutsu victim (as Ao did with Mifune during the summit) and trace it back to its origins.

NeoKakarott023
04-06-2011, 05:10 PM
I noticed that he was trying to take away Kurenai's specialty to give a genin a shot at winning. And sorry, but until it's otherwise stated, the Byakugan doesn't render the user immune to genjutsu. The only thing it does is allow the use to see the chakra disruption on a genjutsu victim (as Ao did with Mifune during the summit) and trace it back to its origins.

He does that a lot, with his created odds, which is interesting in a conversation, but in actual fights here we don't add or subtract abilities, thats mathematics. We deal in battles, whatever the puke was born by Kishi with, thats what his ass comes to the dance with.

superninja
04-06-2011, 08:12 PM
I don't know but I feel I've got to give my 2 cents, the discussion is part one Neji vs Kurenai right?
Well from what I've read so far if byakugan can see through visual type genjutsus it would help Neji a lot in that fight. But we don't know that for sure. I mean we could assume it gives some protection since byakugan is a very different sensory perception than normal sight or even sharingan. With byakugan everything is observed including the chakra that is being send towards you, if that helps we don't know. But another thing that could help Neji counter genjutsu is his good chakra control, Neji can send out his chakra from every pore in his body so that would suggest Neji has a good control over his body chakra flow. Since genjutsu works by changing the chakra flow of your opponent or manipulating the chakras of the opponent, Neji could easily notice something is wrong (in theory). That probably depends on the type of genjutsu though.
So basically it's a question of whether byakuugan counters visual genjutsu (links with byakugan users getting caught in such genjutsu would resolve that question, or links where byakugan user counters visual genjutsu).
I think someone with byakugan activated would be caught in a genjutsu, it would just be observed a little differently (through byakugan lens). BUT if the same user deactivates byakugan, then the picture will reset and he will release himself from genjutsu and vice versa (byakugan user with inactive byakugan could activate byakugan to change his perspective and release genjutsu).

NeoKakarott023
04-06-2011, 08:26 PM
I don't know but I feel I've got to give my 2 cents, the discussion is part one Neji vs Kurenai right?
Well from what I've read so far if byakugan can see through visual type genjutsus it would help Neji a lot in that fight. But we don't know that for sure. I mean we could assume it gives some protection since byakugan is a very different sensory perception than normal sight or even sharingan. With byakugan everything is observed including the chakra that is being send towards you, if that helps we don't know. But another thing that could help Neji counter genjutsu is his good chakra control, Neji can send out his chakra from every pore in his body so that would suggest Neji has a good control over his body chakra flow. Since genjutsu works by changing the chakra flow of your opponent or manipulating the chakras of the opponent, Neji could easily notice something is wrong (in theory). That probably depends on the type of genjutsu though.
So basically it's a question of whether byakuugan counters visual genjutsu (links with byakugan users getting caught in such genjutsu would resolve that question, or links where byakugan user counters visual genjutsu).
I think someone with byakugan activated would be caught in a genjutsu, it would just be observed a little differently (through byakugan lens). BUT if the same user deactivates byakugan, then the picture will reset and he will release himself from genjutsu and vice versa (byakugan user with inactive byakugan could activate byakugan to change his perspective and release genjutsu).

Then also take into the equation the time, we're talking about Neji during the Chuunin Exams, so thats even before his 'epic' battle with Kidomaru. His abilites in my honest belief weren't good enough to take down a Jounin, to the death???? Uh - uhn, nope.

AniMeFaN
04-07-2011, 07:19 AM
Then also take into the equation the time, we're talking about Neji during the Chuunin Exams, so thats even before his 'epic' battle with Kidomaru. His abilites in my honest belief weren't good enough to take down a Jounin, to the death???? Uh - uhn, nope.

well your honest belief in most cases is extremely delusional, you are seriously clueless is most arguements specially if sasuke is brought up.
i already showed you that genin lee would take down kurenai with out her genjutsu ability and im pretty sure everyone would agree. this was shown so that you would stop wiht this genin abilities arent good enough to win against a jounin because neji would counter her genjutsu most likely with whats been shown in the manga so it would be the same scenario of her with out genjutsu. on top of that lee at that time was saving the gates to fight neji so he could possiblly beat him. thats how strong he is. hes not just a genin, hes the hyuugas genius. whats the difference what rank, you think a genin naruto cant beat a jounin becuase hes a genin? thats all you say is hes a genin so he cant win, you dont have any good arguements at all, its not even worth responding.

NeoKakarott023
04-07-2011, 09:37 AM
well your honest belief in most cases is extremely delusional, you are seriously clueless is most arguements specially if sasuke is brought up.
i already showed you that genin lee would take down kurenai with out her genjutsu ability and im pretty sure everyone would agree. this was shown so that you would stop wiht this genin abilities arent good enough to win against a jounin because neji would counter her genjutsu most likely with whats been shown in the manga so it would be the same scenario of her with out genjutsu. on top of that lee at that time was saving the gates to fight neji so he could possiblly beat him. thats how strong he is. hes not just a genin, hes the hyuugas genius. whats the difference what rank, you think a genin naruto cant beat a jounin becuase hes a genin? thats all you say is hes a genin so he cant win, you dont have any good arguements at all, its not even worth responding.

I'm a realist Sasuke at that time woulda got assraped by every Jounin I've seen. Additionally look at the entire situation, and think about the entirety of it. At that time Sasuke had just got bitten by Oro, couldn't control the CS, and his power fluctuated like crazy because he just got it. He didn't have a real measure of control until he hooked up with the Sound Nin. So in the set situation of Sasuke during that time would perished to Kakashi, Asuma, Gai, Kurenai, Baki, Yamato, should I continue this list? The thing you're not putting into account also is this, beyond Kakashi learning Kamui, what new techs has these 'sorry', and 'beatable' Jounins learned that weve known about, NOTHING. So for example during the Chuunin Exams when Gai jumped down to save Rock, he had THE SAME ABILITIES HE USED TO TAKE KISAME APART AT THAT TIME. Now please don't add to the story and say he went on a pilgramage somewhere by himself outside of the manga since that time and did some heave training on his own. So be reasonable, 'Gaara was tired, thats why Gai could smack away his attack', go back to the manga watch Gai take Kisame apart, look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself the possibilites of a Genin defeating a Jounin. Don't go off on a tangent with your imagination, and what you wish were true, stick to whats in ink.

KISHI GAVE KURENAI GENJUTSU ABILITIES ON PAR WITH ITACHI, WHY WOULD I TALK TO YOU ABOUT AN IMAGINARY BATTLE IN WHICH YOU NEGATE WHAT THE AUTHOR CREATED. WHY NOT GIVE LEE A BIJUU WHILE YOUR AT IT AND AT LEAST A RINNENGAN THEN, NOW ASK THE DUMB ASSED QUESTION, 'WHO'D WIN'. ANSWER THE CHARACTER YOU RIGGED TO WIN IN THE FIRST PLACE. THESE ARE YOUR FANTASIES, FANTASIES HAVE NO PLACE IN BATTLES HERE.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-07-2011, 09:57 AM
Choji wins

superninja
04-07-2011, 10:08 AM
We don't know all of Kurenai's abilities, but she is probably strong (since she is a jounin). I think she would win against chuunin exam Neji because Neji was very unstable at that time and he would probably make a mistake of underestimating Kurenai, but Neji from the rescue Sasuke arc would win because he was more mature then.
This is all going on the assumption Neji would be good at defending against genjutsu.
In first case Neji would defend against a couple of genjutsus and then get all arrogant about byakugan thinking he will beat Kurenai with just his foot. Then Kurenai would win because she has other skills as well since she is a jounin and probably knows how to counter byakugan somehow. The other case is where Neji is mature enough not to underestimate her and keeps his guard up so he deflects all her attacks and wins.

Wolverine
04-07-2011, 11:39 AM
You guys do realize that Kurenai was just a "new" Jounin, but a Jounin nonetheless. Which means, she went through the same Jounin exams with the same rules and requirements as the other Jounin, which automatically puts her above a normal Genin, even a genius like Neji.

kael03
04-07-2011, 11:44 AM
You guys do realize that Kurenai was just a "new" Jounin, but a Jounin nonetheless. Which means, she went through the same Jounin exams with the same rules and requirements as the other Jounin, which automatically puts her above a normal Genin, even a genius like Neji.

We do. Animefan, however, wants to gimp her in any way to make her lose a fight against anyone. She specializes in genjutsu, so he wants to take her genjutsu away to let a genin like Lee win. He's giving the Byakugan abilities it doesn't have to let Neji (who lost to Naruto, I might add) win.

Vengeance
04-07-2011, 12:01 PM
In terms of actual skill they would be considered equal however Itachi has natural resistance & ability for genjutsu because of his sharingan. I'll try to dumb this down for the retarded. Two boxers with equal skill get into a fight. One boxer is 56 years old 5'4" 140LBS while the other boxer is 27 years old 6'3" 205LBS. Guess which boxer is going to win?

NeoKakarott023
04-07-2011, 12:54 PM
And sorry I've never seen Gaara tired, or worn out, I've seen him knocked unconsious by Deidara's explosives, or on total beast mode, I've never seen him breath hard, or send a half assed 'im tired' jutsu.

Vengeance
04-07-2011, 01:21 PM
Just wanted to add in that Kurenai caught both Itachi & Kisame in the genjutsu before it got reversed. Once reversed she was able to cancel it fast enough to duck & block hits from Itachi.

superninja
04-07-2011, 01:23 PM
In terms of actual skill they would be considered equal however Itachi has natural resistance & ability for genjutsu because of his sharingan. I'll try to dumb this down for the retarded. Two boxers with equal skill get into a fight. One boxer is 56 years old 5'4" 140LBS while the other boxer is 27 years old 6'3" 205LBS. Guess which boxer is going to win?

Itachi even without sharingan is faster at casting genjutsu than Kurenai, his finger genjutsu didn't require hand seals and he casted a two layer genjutsu on Naruto while fighting Kakashi at the same time. Itachi's hand seal speed is faster anyway so even for genjutsu that requires hand seals Itachi would be the one to cast the genjutsu faster if we assume Kurenai and Itachi have the same genjutsu knowledge.
With sharingan, it gives the extra advantage to Itachi because he can cast more genjutsus without hand seals and it gives him a defense against genjutsu.

Lastly, Itachi is probably smarter than Kurenai and that gives him an advantage in a genjutsu battle because it affects the way the genjutsu is used.
So, Itachi without sharingan vs Kurenai in a purely genjutsu battle, winner is Itachi.

Vengeance
04-07-2011, 01:43 PM
Itachi even without sharingan is faster at casting genjutsu than Kurenai, his finger genjutsu didn't require hand seals and he casted a two layer genjutsu on Naruto while fighting Kakashi at the same time.
Why are you rejects always trying to argue a point when there isn't one to be made? It's really fucking simple skill has nothing to do with things like strength or speed. Like really now do you dumbarses even know what the word skill even means? Kurenai's genjutsu is done by executing different hand signs while Itachi's are executed through the eyes or fingers. A different form of execution doesn't equate to greater skill.

Itachi's hand seal speed is faster anyway so even for genjutsu that requires hand seals Itachi would be the one to cast the genjutsu faster if we assume Kurenai and Itachi have the same genjutsu knowledge.
What part of speed has nothing to do with actual skill don't you understand? I swear the retards on this forum can be fucking annoying at times.

With sharingan, it gives the extra advantage to Itachi because he can cast more genjutsus without hand seals and it gives him a defense against genjutsu.
Guess you failed to grasp the concept of my analogy. I pointed all of this out already moron.

Lastly, Itachi is probably smarter than Kurenai and that gives him an advantage in a genjutsu battle because it affects the way the genjutsu is used.
How do you know if Itachi is smarter than Kurenai? I mean really now how do you know this? How does this even relate to what I was referring to in my post? You sound like fucking KYF right now.

So, Itachi without sharingan vs Kurenai in a purely genjutsu battle, winner is Itachi.
& you know this how? Last time I checked Itachi used his sharingan to reverse the genjutsu he was caught in by Kurenai. Without the Sharingan how exactly is he supposed to reverse it?

stubborn_d0nkey
04-07-2011, 02:43 PM
And sorry I've never seen Gaara tired, or worn out, I've seen him knocked unconsious by Deidara's explosives, or on total beast mode, I've never seen him breath hard, or send a half assed 'im tired' jutsu.

Deidara fight, saving the village? Dont remember exactly how he looked, but i do know it really fucked him up

NeoKakarott023
04-07-2011, 03:06 PM
Deidara fight, saving the village? Dont remember exactly how he looked, but i do know it really fucked him up

From what I saw, he wasn't even breathing hard, the first surprized or anything negative look I saw on Gaara during that battle was when Diedara's explosive clones came out, and was mixed all with his Ultimate Sand Shield, right after that, he was out cold, prior to that nah, nobody tired out Gaara. The point of Anime Fans delusions were that Rock Lee actually had a shot at defeating Gaara, at that time, lol. Rock Lee vs. any Jink, is laughable. I'd give him an outside shot at the fake one, thats a wannabe Naruto, but certain characters aren't allowed here so I won't even say his name.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Of course lee had no chance at winning

AniMeFaN
04-07-2011, 04:27 PM
Kurenai's genjutsu is done by executing different hand signs while Itachi's are executed through the eyes or fingers. A different form of execution doesn't not equate to greater skill.

your'e right, different form of excution can equate to better skill if the form of execution is superior. kurenai has to weave hand signs and itachi immidiately saw it was genjutsu being cast and reversed it, itachi doesnt even have to do anything but lift a finger or use his eyes and people dont even realize a genjutsu was even cast. seriously all the manga feats itachi has done he is clearly superior in skill, power, and intellect.


How do you know if Itachi is smarter than Kurenai? .

i dont know maybe when they fought he was thinking 10 steps ahead while all she did was cast a genjutsu. kakashi smarter then her as well because he also is thinking muliple moves ahead

AniMeFaN
04-07-2011, 04:31 PM
Of course lee had no chance at winning

no one said he did, this retard just likes to go off topic about shit no one is even talking baout because he doesnt even realise. he thinks all jounin are created equal, he thinks gaara after getting beat up and laying on his back using a sand move that got stopped by the strongest jounin in konoha eeasily equates to no genin can defeat a jounin. he cant understand that the point of me saying lee could beat kurenai with out being able to use genjutsu is to show that neji with his byakugan who could probably see through genjustu based on all the manga feats we have seen would be in a similiar scenario and can do quite well against kurenai but he cant understand that.

AniMeFaN
04-07-2011, 05:24 PM
From what I saw, he wasn't even breathing hard, the first surprized or anything negative look I saw on Gaara during that battle was when Diedara's explosive clones came out, and was mixed all with his Ultimate Sand Shield, right after that, he was out cold, prior to that nah, nobody tired out Gaara..

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/082/17
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/082/18
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/082/20
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/083/3
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/083/4
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/085/13
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/085/14
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/086

just some of the many panels of gaara being surprised, hurt etc since you cant remember. also lee with the gates open has power that far surpasses a normal jounin.

NeoKakarott023
04-07-2011, 05:40 PM
no one said he did, this retard just likes to go off topic about shit no one is even talking baout because he doesnt even realise. #1 he thinks all jounin are created equal,#2 he thinks gaara after getting beat up and laying on his back using a sand move that got stopped by the strongest jounin in konoha eeasily equates to no genin can defeat a jounin. he cant understand that #3 the point of me saying lee could beat kurenai with out being able to use genjutsu is #4 to show that neji with his byakugan who could probably see through genjustu based on all the manga feats we have seen would be in a similiar scenario and can do quite well against kurenai but he cant understand that.

#1 I never stated that one time, some Jounin are better than others in different areas, thats obvious.

#2 Listen to what you're saying, Gaara's advantage was his sand, Lee's was his speed, don't talk to me about power and Rock Lee, VERSUS A JINK THEY'RE GALAXIES AWAY ON LEES BEST DAY ON THE EARTH. My proof, Rock Lee inside the magnificent gates you seem to be addicted to, perfomed Kinjutsu vs. Gaara. Rock Lee was unconsious, then had an emergency surgery to save his broken bones and it could only be performed by the greatest known Medic in the manga, thats how fucked up he was. Re-read the manga, or watch the anime, GAARA WALKS AWAY UNCONCERNED. Did he hobble, limp, wipe away sweat, anything at the end? Just because the characters you dig hit they're opponent with 1 move, or whatever moves, what happened at the conclusion is most important, everybody gets hit. And know that the same power that defended Suna vs. Deidara's ridiculous bomb, was inside of Gaara at the same time, and Lee woulda did what? His 'famed' gates would have to own 2, Gaara & his Bijuu. If Jinks were so weak why would villages want one? According to you all they need is a bunch of Rock Lee's ROFLMAO!!!

#3 Isn't even worth discussing, ITS JUVENILLE. You set up the world like we're dueling monsters, then you take the abilities from Kishi's character, because you don't like what he wrote in his databook, you don't take anything away from the monsters on your side of the battlefield, and in that fantasy world everything is even and fair. Why don't you pull out a field spell like Skyskraper for Rock Lee while your at it?

#4 Shows me that not only are you someone how fanticizes too much, but you're also LAZY. You've been popping this shit about Hyuugas for 2 days as if they're immune from genjutsu, and haven't even looked anywhere to find proof. Then you continue your arguement as if its fact, now heres what I found about Hyuugas....

When the "Byakugan" is activated, the clan member gains an extra-sensory perception, which gives them penetrating sight and telescopic vision. This allows them to see the tenketsu; the internal chakra coils system 361 pressure points. This vision also grants the member a near 360° view of their surroundings, the higher the skill of the clan member, the further the distance from which they can sense incoming attacks. Unfortunately the vision does have a weakness, a small blind spot that extends outwards from the vertebra of the upper back.

The clan uses this ability in conjunction with their own chakra creating the Juuken (gentle fist) fighting style. The clan member can use their fingers or palms to emit chakra to flow into their opponents body's at the tenketsu points. When the hand draws close enough to strike, the clan member can stop or increase their opponent’s chakra flow. The internal chakra coils which spread throughout the body also wrap around the internal chakra producing organs. So if the internal coils are attacked, it also damages these internal organs. Because a ninja can not train their internal body, such damage can be a critical hit for even a highly skilled ninja. The tenketsu serve as the connectors and exit points for the chakra pathways. So when they are stopped by the Hyuuga clan member, the ninja greatly loses his or her ability to utilize their chakra for jutsu."

Now all of that is sexy, but more to the point where is your proof of Hyuuga's being 'genjutsu immune', just one thing in ink, ANYWHERE PLEASE. Stop assuming that people will look up shit you're spewing, this is being televised, your validity while not very high initially is dropping at mach speed with this entire conversation. Just letting you know, sometimes people don't know they're falling on the way down.

Vengeance
04-07-2011, 10:29 PM
Its funny how people are bashing Kurenai's use of genjutsu when her only example is against the fucking genjutsu god of this manga. There exchange went like this.

1. Kurenai cast a genjutsu which catches both Itachi & Kisame.

2. Itachi reverses the genjutsu.

3. Kurenai brakes the genjutsu fast enough to dodge & blocks hits from Itachi.

Final: Basically it ended in a stalemate trons.

NeoKakarott023
04-08-2011, 12:45 AM
Its funny how people are bashing Kurenai's use of genjutsu when her only example is against the fucking genjutsu god of this manga. There exchange went like this.

1. Kurenai cast a genjutsu which catches both Itachi & Kisame.

2. Itachi reverses the genjutsu.

3. Kurenai brakes the genjutsu fast enough to dodge & blocks hits from Itachi.

Final: Basically it ended in a stalemate trons.

Its called stupid math. Itachi was considered the 'Genjutsu God', MORE BECAUSE OF HIS SHARINGAN THAN ANYTHING ELSE. Uchiha's were seen as great with regard to genjutsu, but after the Uchiha Massacre there have been only 3 'true' Uchiha's left. So if some other character uses Genjutsu they can't be as good by birth because of the sharingan.

Dumb logic, additionally Kurenai has been around since the beginning of the manga, and wherever she's from, or whatever happened to her clan hasn't been discussed. Say whatever you want about Itachi's exchange with the Jounins, none of them were trying to kill Itachi, they were attempting to capture and detain him, and from the looks on their faces at the giddyup they knew it would be a tall order. They all looked like a Mike Tyson opponent back in the day, shelled before the first bell said ding.

Regardless, Itachi is one thing, Rock Lee though? The same dude that Gaara had to save his life because his lamed ass Jackie Chan Drunk Technique was starting to get him skewered by Kimmimaro?

What this dude ain't even thinking about also is that bijuu can seemingly heal their Jinks, or take tons of damage for them. Every Jink that has fought besides the ones grabbed by the Akatsuki, check them out 'after' the battle, their wounds gone, stamina back, heck Hachibi complained about losing several tentacles, and KB was kicking it.

For Rock Lee, and Gai, those Gates while sexy to some, are death sentences. The higher you go, the closer to death you come, and when the Crackhead moves are completed, if you're opponent is still standing, 'like Gaara', WTF do you do then? Its not even worth posting a panel of Gai after his highest gates to date vs. Kisame, he was carried to the Alliance.

Anime Fan, list all of these Jounins that Rock Lee pwns because of these Gates, and please manga faktz, stop trying to make everyone come to your Fantasy Land. What you're stating Kishi never wrote, ANYWHERE. Your assuming because you like him, definition FANNING.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-08-2011, 05:03 AM
I dont think the sharingan gives an inherent ability to counter all genjutsu, or at least the impact of the ability is not persistent throughout genjutsu types. I think it mostly affects visual-based genjutsu, I dont see a reason why it should have effect other genjutsu (as much) too. Though Uchiha might be more likely to have higher genjutsu potential(countering non visual-based) but thats just presumptuous.

superninja
04-08-2011, 08:19 AM
It's really fucking simple skill has nothing to do with things like strength or speed. Like really now do you dumbarses even know what the word skill even means? Kurenai's genjutsu is done by executing different hand signs while Itachi's are executed through the eyes or fingers. A different form of execution doesn't equate to greater skill.


Lol, if someone does the same thing faster than you than he is more skillful, how is that debatable? You think it's the same thing if Itachi casts his genjutsu in half a second and Kurenai needs a whole second to do it. Well, it's not the same, it means Itachi is actually more skillful at casting genjutsu than Kurenai.
I could use an analogy from real life here, but there are too many of them. Just think of something you're good at and imagine there's a guy who does the same thing two times faster. You should say that he is more skillful because it takes more skill to perform something fast than it does to do it slow. It's harder to be precise for the guy that is doing things faster and that takes skill.

What part of speed has nothing to do with actual skill don't you understand? I swear the retards on this forum can be fucking annoying at times.

What part of it takes skill to do something fast you don't understand.


How do you know if Itachi is smarter than Kurenai? I mean really now how do you know this? How does this even relate to what I was referring to in my post? You sound like fucking KYF right now.

How do I know...how about the fact Itachi can plan far ahead in his fights and is never caught off guard. Kurenai can also probably do some good thinking, but Itachi is one of the smartest characters in manga. He was playing Madara, Konoha, playing with Sasuke so he can defeat Orochimaru plus attack Madara through Sasuke. Put a fail safe in Naruto in case Sasuke gets corrupted by Madara. That is some serious planning ahead.
And how it does relate, well a smarter person will use genjutsu more efficiently.

& you know this how? Last time I checked Itachi used his sharingan to reverse the genjutsu he was caught in by Kurenai. Without the Sharingan how exactly is he supposed to reverse it?

Kurenai got free by biting her lip lmao. I think Itachi could break free out of that genjutsu without sharingan since he is so good at using genjutsu so that means he has experience. On the other hand Kurenai would be in his genjutsu before she does those hand seals if Itachi is seriously fighting her.

Its funny how people are bashing Kurenai's use of genjutsu when her only example is against the fucking genjutsu god of this manga.


So now he is a god of genjutsu, well we all know that. I am not saying Kurenai is weak, it's just that you guys were comparing Michael Jordan with a decent basketball player here. You were comparing Micheal Schumaher with some guy that also drives formula one. You were comparing Maradona to a decent football player. And so on.

NeoKakarott023
04-08-2011, 11:54 AM
We're getting way off topic here, Kurenai vs. Itachi was created by Anime Fan because of what Kishi put in his databook about her being on par with Itachi. Now on par, dosen't mean that Kurenai is better than Itachi at everything that is genjutsu, but it says to me that she would be a formidable opponent to him with her skill, moreso than anyone else Non Uchiha is what I got from it. This is proven because Kurenai attacked first against Itachi, it was simply reversed because of his obvious greater skill gained from battling more opponents, and also the sharingan hax. Kurenai on another occasion from my memory killed 2 shinobi with genjutsu, so bum she is not. Is all of this to say that she's above Itachi, no, but pitting her against Genin Level Characters I wouldn't even call disrespectful, I'd call it retarded, simply retarded. I'm not questioning whom is better between Itachi & Kurenai in the area of genjutsu from whats been seen, but one can't escape from the lack of jutsu's shown by her character, and add together the stats Kishi gave her, and assume that she's a nobody. Kishi's stats place her in the least 2nd behind Uchiha's in the story, I haven't seen Kishi compare any other character to Itachi in this area. If her son gets Asumas wind afinity as well as her genjutsu abilities, he has the tools become a monster.

kael03
04-08-2011, 11:57 AM
I'm not going to tear apart what superninja just posted. But I'll counter with "Kishi has stated Kurenai and Itachi are of equal skill in genjutsu in the databook entry I posted". Which, by the way, was made AFTER she fought Itachi, or else the comparison wouldn't have been necessary.

Wolverine
04-08-2011, 03:52 PM
I think digression is necessary here. How about a new fight?

Kakashi vs Darui?

stubborn_d0nkey
04-08-2011, 04:11 PM
Tenten wins

AniMeFaN
04-08-2011, 07:17 PM
choji wins

stubborn_d0nkey
04-09-2011, 05:28 AM
^You are doing it wrong

goldengod
04-09-2011, 10:24 PM
Kakashi vs darui
I think kakashi will pull this one off because of his sharingan.
Darui and kakashi is probably even in skill, it's only kakashi's sharingan separating the two.
Darui has shown better raiton justu than kakashi but kakashi is very versatile with his element jutsus. It would be a tuff battle for kakashi, unless he decides to use MS and finish darui from the get go. Which is unlike kakashi's character,so i wont consider it.

Vengeance
04-10-2011, 03:17 PM
Lol, if someone does the same thing faster than you than he is more skillful, how is that debatable?
Simple, you have two people one being a professional boxer & the other being some random Joe. If random Joe happens to throw a punch faster than the professional boxer does that automatically make the random Joe a more skillful boxer? Of course not obviously since the random Joe hasn't had the proper training in how to actually throw a punch, dodge, & or block hits. Skill isn't about speed or power but rather technique. This is the concept some of you have failed to grasp.

You think it's the same thing if Itachi casts his genjutsu in half a second and Kurenai needs a whole second to do it.
Who is the one who actually got caught in a genjutsu first? O yeah it was Itachi.

Well, it's not the same, it means Itachi is actually more skillful at casting genjutsu than Kurenai.
Databook states otherwise obviously.

I could use an analogy from real life here, but there are too many of them. Just think of something you're good at and imagine there's a guy who does the same thing two times faster. You should say that he is more skillful because it takes more skill to perform something fast than it does to do it slow. It's harder to be precise for the guy that is doing things faster and that takes skill.
Depends on the quality of craftsmanship & what is actually being done obviously.

I'll use another analogy for a second. You have two boxers of equal skill one is faster but can't take a punch while the other is stronger & actually could take a punch. This is what the result would be. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN6042XXKME)

What part of it takes skill to do something fast you don't understand.
Actually you could do something fast but sloppy which wouldn't take allot of skill to do.

How do I know...how about the fact Itachi can plan far ahead in his fights and is never caught off guard.
Kakashi caught him off guard in part 2 with a shadow clone.

Kurenai can also probably do some good thinking, but Itachi is one of the smartest characters in manga.
Actually Kakashi, Minato, Shikamaru, Shikaku, Madara, Danzou, & Sarutobi were more intelligent but that's nether here nor there.

He was playing Madara,
At the end of the day Itachi died & Madara still got his hands on Sasuke. More like Madara played Itachi.

Konoha,
Actually Konoha Elders played Itachi for a fool & convinced him it was necessary to exterminate his whole clan. If anything that should show a lack of intelligence on Itachi's end.

playing with Sasuke so he can defeat Orochimaru plus attack Madara through Sasuke.
Which failed miserably since Sasuke is now Madara's puppet.

Put a fail safe in Naruto in case Sasuke gets corrupted by Madara.
Which has done what exactly? Naruto already confronted Sasuke while he was already corrupted by Madara & nothing happened.

That is some serious planning ahead.
His master plan already failed from the moment Sasuke decided to side with Madara instead of Konoha.

And how it does relate, well a smarter person will use genjutsu more efficiently.
Read above.

Kurenai got free by biting her lip lmao. I think Itachi could break free out of that genjutsu without sharingan since he is so good at using genjutsu so that means he has experience.
Your stupidity truly amuses me. Itachi's use of genjutsu is clearly because of his sharingan. Take away the sharingan & Itachi is no longer a master genjutsu specialist. It's like taking an Olympic sprinter & pushing them in water to swim 500 laps. They wouldn't do so well since their used to running on land not swimming in water. This is a simple fact that you can't really dispute. Without Sharingan Itachi can't use Tsukuyomi which is pretty much the only type of genjutsu Kurenai wouldn't be able to handle. Anything else Itachi could conceivably come up with would simply be canceled.

On the other hand Kurenai would be in his genjutsu before she does those hand seals if Itachi is seriously fighting her.
Yet she caught Itachi first & Itachi never caught her in a genjutsu that he initially used. He simply reversed her genjutsu with the aid of sharingan. How is it that Itachi would magically be able to catch Kurenai in a genjutsu then? Also what makes you think Kurenai wouldn't be able to simply brake free when she's shown doing so in the past?

So now he is a god of genjutsu, well we all know that. I am not saying Kurenai is weak,
But that's exactly what you're trying to imply.

it's just that you guys were comparing Michael Jordan with a decent basketball player here. You were comparing Micheal Schumaher with some guy that also drives formula one. You were comparing Maradona to a decent football player. And so on.
Actually we weren't. We were comparing two jounin to one another. FYI their real time genjutsu exchange in the actual manga ended in a stalemate dumbarse.

NeoKakarott023
04-10-2011, 06:36 PM
Kakashi vs darui
I think kakashi will pull this one off because of his sharingan.
Darui and kakashi is probably even in skill, it's only kakashi's sharingan separating the two.
Darui has shown better raiton justu than kakashi but kakashi is very versatile with his element jutsus. It would be a tuff battle for kakashi, unless he decides to use MS and finish darui from the get go. Which is unlike kakashi's character,so i wont consider it.

I don't know but why has Darui shown better Raiton Jutsu, Kakashi was pulling off Raikiri when he was with Minato, and this is a move that Sasuke pierced Raichu with, wouldn't Kakashi's be better? Additionally Kakashi has more lightening attacks, including the ones used vs. Pein. Darui has pulled off Circus Laser, and the 'Black Lightening', and its better exactly why, because its new? IMHO Kakashi's experience, plus his sharingan, additionally with Kamui Hax would get Darui, its the set up of the manga.

kael03
04-10-2011, 06:43 PM
I don't know but why has Darui shown better Raiton Jutsu, Kakashi was pulling off Raikiri when he was with Minato,

Actually he was using Chidori back then. Raikiri is a slightly different animal since it's more focused than Chidori, and takes less hand signs (though that might be from training).

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 07:54 PM
Simple, you have two people one being a professional boxer & the other being some random Joe. If random Joe happens to throw a punch faster than the professional boxer does that automatically make the random Joe a more skillful boxer? Of course not obviously since the random Joe hasn't had the proper training in how to actually throw a punch, dodge, & or block hits. Skill isn't about speed or power but rather technique. This is the concept some of you have failed to grasp..

you fail to grasp that not having to weave hand signs but just lift a finger or a simple look of his eyes can catch someone in a genjutsu. that shows more skill in casting genjutsu which is a big part of genjutsu.

Who is the one who actually got caught in a genjutsu first? O yeah it was Itachi..

once in the genjutsu what happend, he reversed right away and in the genjutsu he had the upper hand so she had to find a way to cancel the genjutsu, why didnt she just reverse it, why didnt that level have no effect on her. thats why she caused herself actual pain/dmg to get out.


Databook states otherwise obviously...

it conflicts with what the manga has shown



Kakashi caught him off guard in part 2 with a shadow clone.

that wasnt actually itachi, it was some guy that was made to look like him through a technique and was the equilvalent to 30% of itachi. he couldnt use all his techniques and the ones he did werent nearly the same because of it.



At the end of the day Itachi died & Madara still got his hands on Sasuke. More like Madara played Itachi..

that is still up in the air as the manga isnt over yet

Actually Konoha Elders played Itachi for a fool & convinced him it was necessary to exterminate his whole clan. If anything that should show a lack of intelligence on Itachi's end...

we dont know itachis side, there were alot of factors in play so we dont know how things actually went down or what his intentions were.


Which failed miserably since Sasuke is now Madara's puppet..

maybe sasuke is playing madara for all we know, still alot of manga left.


His master plan already failed from the moment Sasuke decided to side with Madara instead of Konoha...

again you dont know what he was thinking.



Your stupidity truly amuses me. Itachi's use of genjutsu is clearly because of his sharingan. Take away the sharingan & Itachi is no longer a master genjutsu specialist. It's like taking an Olympic sprinter & pushing them in water to swim 500 laps. They wouldn't do so well since their used to running on land not swimming in water. This is a simple fact that you can't really dispute. Without Sharingan Itachi can't use Tsukuyomi which is pretty much the only type of genjutsu Kurenai wouldn't be able to handle. Anything else Itachi could conceivably come up with would simply be canceled....

its not just because of his sharingan, she couldnt even handle her own genjutsu and had to hurt herself to escape it. itachi took over her own genjutus and used it agains her like it was nothing

Yet she caught Itachi first & Itachi never caught her in a genjutsu that he initially used. He simply reversed her genjutsu with the aid of sharingan. How is it that Itachi would magically be able to catch Kurenai in a genjutsu then? Also what makes you think Kurenai wouldn't be able to simply brake free when she's shown doing so in the past?....

if you are going to keep claiming kurenai "caught" itachi in a genjutsu dont say how is he magically going to catch her in a genjutsu because thats a joke. you think she can catch him but not vice versa, common. also i like how you added never caught her in a genjutsu he "initially used"

Vengeance
04-10-2011, 07:59 PM
^I'll respond to the above bullshit later. I just got off work & am now going out for a drink.

PS: It's really funny how these fanboys are arguing a point that isn't even there to be made.

BoyThisIsAwkward
04-10-2011, 08:18 PM
^I'll respond to the above bullshit later.


ohhhhh shit. watch yourself....

kael03
04-10-2011, 08:25 PM
PS: It's really funny how these fanboys are arguing a point that isn't even there to be made.

Especially when they're argument was crushed by the author of the manga. Animefan, before you even respond, you need to understand that Kishi wrote the databook AFTER Kurenai and Itachi "fought".

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 08:30 PM
Especially when they're argument was crushed by the author of the manga. Animefan, before you even respond, you need to understand that Kishi wrote the databook AFTER Kurenai and Itachi "fought".

i really dont care what the author wrote. he could write kakashi is the strongest in the manga in the next data book, doesnt mean im going to believe or agree with it. his manga contradicts what he wrote in the databook.

kael03
04-10-2011, 08:37 PM
his manga contradicts what he wrote in the databook.

You mean the blatantly obvious stalemate between Kurenai and Itachi? Did you ever stop to think the reason she bit her lip open instead of reversing is because the pain would prevent further genjutsu from being cast on her? It's not any different than when Shikamaru broke his finger with his shadows during his fight with Tayuya.

AOTKorby
04-10-2011, 08:37 PM
@animefan....what.

ninjalostboy95
04-10-2011, 08:40 PM
^You're a retard. Databook is canon.

Itachi has sharingan. Sharingan can see through genjutsu/cast genjutsu/strengthen genjutsu. That doesn't necessarily mean the user's genjutsu skill is better than a person who excels at genjutsu. Just stop responding, it's getting sad. Just post something else.

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 08:41 PM
@animefan....what.

if he wrote in the data book that kurenai skills in genjutsu are equal to itachis then the manga contradicts that

kael03
04-10-2011, 08:42 PM
if he wrote in the data book that kurenai skills in genjutsu are equal to itachis then the manga contradicts that

You mean the blatantly obvious stalemate between Kurenai and Itachi? Did you ever stop to think the reason she bit her lip open instead of reversing is because the pain would prevent further genjutsu from being cast on her? It's not any different than when Shikamaru broke his finger with his shadows during his fight with Tayuya.

Read again.

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 08:44 PM
Read again.

i dont need to read again, why would she intentionally harm herself to escape a genjutsu that seh cast that was reversed like childs play on her if she was capable of just reversing it, why didnt she say this level of genjutsu has no effect on her. how come she has to weave signs to cast it

edit: seriously if it was stalemate she wouldnt have had to hurt herself to escape the genjutsu

AOTKorby
04-10-2011, 08:50 PM
this is fucking retarded goddamn. AniMeFaN, just shut up. You're basically trying to say your opinion > Kishi's Canon Publications in terms of legitimacy. Fucking idiocy.

kael03
04-10-2011, 08:51 PM
i dont need to read again, why would she intentionally harm herself to escape a genjutsu that seh cast that was reversed like childs play on her if she was capable of just reversing it, why didnt she say this level of genjutsu has no effect on her. how come she has to weave signs to cast it

The reason she had to and Itachi didn't is because of the Sharingan. Or did you not read the fight with Zabuza where Zabuza figured out that a 3 tomoe sharingan can cast an illusion on someone without hand signs. Just admit the fact that Kishi has stated they are equals and get the hell over it.


this is fucking retarded goddamn. AniMeFaN, just shut up. You're basically trying to say your opinion > Kishi's Canon Publications in terms of legitimacy. Fucking idiocy.

Why does this sound familiar? Who else do we know believes their opinion > Kishi canon?

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 08:55 PM
The reason she had to and Itachi didn't is because of the Sharingan. Or did you not read the fight with Zabuza where Zabuza figured out that a 3 tomoe sharingan can cast an illusion on someone without hand signs. Just admit the fact that Kishi has stated they are equals and get the hell over it.

he can cast genjutsu with just his finger. i remember them not looking at the sharingan. the reason she had to is because itachi took over the genjutsu and had the upper hand.

kael03
04-10-2011, 08:56 PM
My god, it really is like arguing with KYF. Seriously, just stop. Kishi trumps anything you believe. In the end, he has the final say and his final say was Kurenai and Itachi were equally skilled in Genjutsu.

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 08:57 PM
My god, it really is like arguing with KYF. Seriously, just stop. Kishi trumps anything you believe. In the end, he has the final say and his final say was Kurenai and Itachi were equally skilled in Genjutsu.

ok and the manga which he made before contradicts that

ninjalostboy95
04-10-2011, 09:03 PM
Wait, you guys are using databook for battle? Lmao. Don't do that. Databook is meant for how much the character has progressed until they reach their full potential in an area. For example, Minato gets a 5 in speed and Itachi gets a 5 in speed. Obviously, they aren't the same speed. But in this case, I guess you can say Itachi and Kurenai are equal.

Why does this sound familiar? Who else do we know believes their opinion > Kishi canon?

Me. I>Kishi Lmao.

kael03
04-10-2011, 09:06 PM
Wait, you guys are using databook for battle? Lmao. Don't do that. Databook is meant for how much the character has progressed until they reach their full potential in an area. For example, Minato gets a 5 in speed and Itachi gets a 5 in speed. Obviously, they aren't the same speed. But in this case, I guess you can say Itachi and Kurenai are equal.

We're not talking basic stats that one would see on the cards Kabuto was using, we're talking about the databook biography, which reads:

Yuuhi Kurenai Jounin Pg.163

Ninja Registration: 010881
Birthday: June 11th (28 Gemini)
Height: 169.1cm weight: 54.4kg, b/t: AB
Personality: Unyielding, honest and simple
Likes: Soju, Vodka, salted Octopus, Taking a glass of wine at night(or dinner)
Dislikes: Cake
Specialties: Types of Genjutsu

The peaceful Kunoichi who combines wit and beauty, leads astray with her Genjutsu
The Kunoichi has a firm aloofness...and is referred to as 'image', Kakashi's banter causes her cheeks to blush, making her
unexpectedly except her usual purity. She excels in genjutsu, catching Itachi with it, a game between their equal genjutsu skills developed.

"It ends with this"

See? Kishi flat out stated they were equals in genjutsu skills, and this was written after her fight with Itachi.

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 09:10 PM
that shit doesnt even make sense, you need a better translation

ninjalostboy95
04-10-2011, 09:26 PM
@kael: thanks for clarification.

@Animefan: Stfu and brush up on your comprehension skills. Goddamn.

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 09:29 PM
you are fucking stupid if you think that translation actually makes sense.

kael03
04-10-2011, 09:31 PM
you are fucking stupid if you think that translation actually makes sense.

Considering everyone but you can understand it, I'm guessing you are the fucking stupid one.

ask me anything
04-10-2011, 09:59 PM
you are fucking stupid if you think that translation actually makes sense.

There's nothing wrong with the translation. In the ACTUAL databook there are images that correspond to the text that give it more context. The page is laid out in such a way that the info text Kael posted was found in several different places on the page next to the image detailing it.

I know when it's all thrown together without the pictures it can seem a bit odd, but trust me it's 100% correct.

AniMeFaN
04-10-2011, 10:09 PM
thing is i said multiple times it looks like it is taken out of context and he said multiple times thats how it was written. i would like to see the actual page, where do i find it.

ninjalostboy95
04-10-2011, 10:56 PM
you are fucking stupid if you think that translation actually makes sense.

Yuo mad casue uoy cna't raed brah? Deos tihs maek sesne?

ask me anything
04-10-2011, 11:01 PM
thing is i said multiple times it looks like it is taken out of context and he said multiple times thats how it was written. i would like to see the actual page, where do i find it.

http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3B9%3Enu%3D5993%3E642% 3E256%3EWSNRCG%3D3367659%3A87347nu0mrj

Man it was hard as fuck to find this. Plus Photobucket wouldn't upload it for some reason, so I had to find another site to host this shit on.

So your welcome in advance.:cool:


Just accept the fact that your wrong and move on. It happens to the best of us champ.
































Some more then others.:p

NeoKakarott023
04-10-2011, 11:26 PM
i really dont care what the author wrote. he could write kakashi is the strongest in the manga in the next data book, doesnt mean im going to believe or agree with it. his manga contradicts what he wrote in the databook.

Because in your world Uchiha Itachi was this flawless character, that was perfect in all ways, and it was impossible in your fantasy world for Itachi to be touched, and of course it wasn't because of his sharingan, its because his full of your fanning juice that you provide to keep this conversation going.

Fact Itachi was caught in the Broads genjutsu off the giddyup, therefore your 'field spell' of invincibility is gone. Or you could bring out that other card that your hiding, "Itachi could see in the future with his MS ability and planned for the events with Kurenai, and also Sasuke's battle'.

I won't get into a Itachi vs. Kurenai battle with you just cause you don't like her. Fact is she hasn't fought enough for a legitmate battle with Itachi, but to pull random genin against her is simply retarded. How did she ever get promoted to Jounin, and get to be put in charge of a team, the lottery? For all the bashing, she graduate from the academy at age 9, THATS BEFORE EVERY UBER GENIN IN THIS STORY, AND A LOT OF OTHER CHARACTERS, MEN INCLUDED. If you want to pit her vs. these people at chuunin or above, thats plausible, but not only for her many peoples techs from that chuunin exam hasen't been upgraded yet, not enough information for an accurate battle.

Its okay to think Itachi is 'The Best Day Ever', it cool, but he's not real ya know. Sometimes you communicate as if you're in contact with him, and his pissed that the wrong informations out there about him. Think about that.

Vengeance
04-11-2011, 12:45 AM
you fail to grasp that not having to weave hand signs but just lift a finger or a simple look of his eyes can catch someone in a genjutsu. that shows more skill in casting genjutsu which is a big part of genjutsu.
Did you even read what you just quoted here? I mean really now what you're saying here has little to nothing to do with the analogy presented in what you actually quoted. Do you know who else totally ignores points & rambles on about nothing? KYF.

Anyway to answer what I quoted; Having a magic eye that has a natural ability for something does not equate skill. Note other analogies in regards to physical ability. The so called simple lift of a finger was used on Naruto who really has no inherent skill in the use of genjutsu. Hypothetically speaking that genjutsu would be less potent when compared to his sharingan genjutsu. It would also be something that Kuranei could easily cancel since she actually has years of experience with genjutsu.

once in the genjutsu what happend, he reversed right away
With his sharingan not actual skill.

and in the genjutsu he had the upper hand so she had to find a way to cancel the genjutsu,
& She did cancel it in like 1 second. Infact she canceled it fast enough to even dodge & block hits from Itachi. Meaning that genjutsu exchange ended in a stalemate dumbarse.

why didnt she just reverse it, why didnt that level have no effect on her. thats why she caused herself actual pain/dmg to get out.
She didn't reverse it because there would have been no point in doing so. Since you know Itachi has the magic eye which naturally allows him to see through such things.

it conflicts with what the manga has shown
Actually it corresponds with what was shown in the manga since their exchange in genjutsu ended in a stalemate.

that wasnt actually itachi, it was some guy that was made to look like him through a technique and was the equilvalent to 30% of itachi. he couldnt use all his techniques and the ones he did werent nearly the same because of it.
The clones were perfect physical copies that were controlled by the person whose form it was taking. 30% chakra is completely irrelevant since Kakashi never out chakra'ed Itachi in order to get the drop on him but simply outsmarted Itachi. Meaning Kakashi clearly caught Itachi off guard.

that is still up in the air as the manga isnt over yet
How is this up in the air exactly? Sasuke already sided with Madara, attacked the Kage summit & killed Danzou. Surely none of this was a part of Itachi's original plan right? Clearly Madara is the one who played Itachi.

we dont know itachis side, there were alot of factors in play so we dont know how things actually went down or what his intentions were.
Actually we do know Itachi's side in all of this. Please re-read the manga & note Sasuke's conversations with Madara & Danzou. We pretty much know everthing that needs to be known in regards to this subject. Itachi allowed himself to become a pwn in an effort to prevent war.

maybe sasuke is playing madara for all we know, still alot of manga left.
LMAO yeah ok I'm sure Sasuke may at some point try to revolt against Madara but that doesn't change the fact that he's attacked killed ninja from multiple countries, & killed Konoha's acting Kage. Meaning at this point in time he's Madara's puppet.

again you dont know what he was thinking.
Dude really now have you read the manga? Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to Konoha as a hero after killing Itachi. Obviously that's not the direction Sasuke took. Meaning Itachi's master plan blew up in his face.

its not just because of his sharingan, she couldnt even handle her own genjutsu and had to hurt herself to escape it. itachi took over her own genjutus and used it agains her like it was nothing.
Which he did with the fucking Sharingan dumbarse. So yes it very much is all about his sharingan.

if you are going to keep claiming kurenai "caught" itachi in a genjutsu dont say how is he magically going to catch her in a genjutsu because thats a joke.
But she did catch Itachi in a genjutsu. It's clearly drawn as such in the manga. I'm not making a claim I'm stating simple fact. My question is valid how exactly would Itachi get Kurenai in a genjutsu without the aid of sharingan?

you think she can catch him but not vice versa, common.
But she did catch him dumbarse.

also i like how you added never caught her in a genjutsu he "initially used"
Because it's the truth dumbarse.

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 07:24 AM
Did you even read what you just quoted here? I mean really now what you're saying here has little to nothing to do with the analogy presented in what you actually quoted. Do you know who else totally ignores points & rambles on about nothing? KYF..

yea you are talking about speed not being equated to skill. this is not the case in genjutsu because speed of casting is equated to skill when you dont have to weave hand signs.



With his sharingan not actual skill...

common man, you act like he was a normal uchiha and its just because he has a sharingan that he can do these things. pretty much all uchiha wouldnt be able to handle themselves with kurenai in genjutsu bit itachi was extremely skilled and thats why his sharingan was so powerful.


& She did cancel it in like 1 second. Infact she canceled it fast enough to even dodge & block hits from Itachi. Meaning that genjutsu exchange ended in a stalemate dumbarse....

actually it didnt end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stale mate in the genjutsu, she was infact in serious trouble and even when she did cancel it the fight was over anyway if not for kakashi.


She didn't reverse it because there would have been no point in doing so. Since you know Itachi has the magic eye which naturally allows him to see through such things.

then why did she do it in the first place? if she know who he is, why did she do it, is she just that stupid?


Actually it corresponds with what was shown in the manga since their exchange in genjutsu ended in a stalemate..


again it didnt end in a stalemate, the genjutsu ended with itachi having the upperhand, thats why she tried to cancel it out because she saw she was at a disadvantage.

The clones were perfect physical copies that were controlled by the person whose form it was taking. 30% chakra is completely irrelevant since Kakashi never out chakra'ed Itachi in order to get the drop on him but simply outsmarted Itachi. Meaning Kakashi clearly caught Itachi off guard...

the clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of itachi, but being controlled from somewhere else. his attacks were not the same level and he couldnt use alot of his techniques. you act like that was a fight with the real itachi, and that naruto would have been able to land a rasengan on him to fniish him, of course he wouldnt be able to, a 100% itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step wise then most. you think kakashi improved that significantly from part 1 where he was on his toes the entire time and overwhelmed thinking about the situation.


How is this up in the air exactly? Sasuke already sided with Madara, attacked the Kage summit & killed Danzou. Surely none of this was a part of Itachi's original plan right? Clearly Madara is the one who played Itachi....

we dont know that, we dont know what itachi had intended because we dont know his side. he was clearly aware that sasuke would come to and attack konoha because he spoke to naruto about it before he was even dead.


Actually we do know Itachi's side in all of this. Please re-read the manga & note Sasuke's conversations with Madara & Danzou. We pretty much know everthing that needs to be known in regards to this subject. Itachi allowed himself to become a pwn in an effort to prevent war.....

we dont know that, thats what we have been told by others, we dont know his actualy intentions coming from him, there were alot of factors in play so we dont know what he was thinking as of now.


LMAO yeah ok I'm sure Sasuke may at some point try to revolt against Madara but that doesn't change the fact that he's attacked killed ninja from multiple countries, & killed Konoha's acting Kage. Meaning at this point in time he's Madara's puppet..

he killed danzo who is a shinobi from the old days that lives with in an handles his businees with in the shadows, nobody trusted him or iwll miss him. that doesnt mean he madaras puppet, we dont know what he is doing right now, he may be playing madara and this was to gain his trust for all we know. he said his objectives lie within the shadows, those objectives are to rid the world of these shinobi such as orochimaru,danzo,madara etc so how is he a puppet.


Dude really now have you read the manga? Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to Konoha as a hero after killing Itachi. Obviously that's not the direction Sasuke took. Meaning Itachi's master plan blew up in his face......

you are going on what madara told you, you have no idea what itachi intended because he never told anyone that we know of.

Which he did with the fucking Sharingan dumbarse. So yes it very much is all about his sharingan..

i dont understand where you have read sharingan give you the ability to reverse genjutsu but i havent seen it, pretty much all sharingan user would lose to her in genjutsu but itachis skills were what allowed him to reverse it.


But she did catch Itachi in a genjutsu. It's clearly drawn as such in the manga. I'm not making a claim I'm stating simple fact. My question is valid how exactly would Itachi get Kurenai in a genjutsu without the aid of sharingan?..

im saying thats retarded, you thinking that she can catch itachi in a genjutsu but not viceversa, he didnt even have to cast a genjutsu to catch her lol, he caught her in her own.

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 07:25 AM
http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3B9%3Enu%3D5993%3E642% 3E256%3EWSNRCG%3D3367659%3A87347nu0mrj

Man it was hard as fuck to find this. Plus Photobucket wouldn't upload it for some reason, so I had to find another site to host this shit on.

So your welcome in advance.:cool:


Just accept the fact that your wrong and move on. It happens to the best of us champ.

thx for finding the page but i meant the page translated, that looks like alot of writing in another language

Numinous
04-11-2011, 09:14 AM
Animefan, we don't need a KYF 3.0 (since HR was the 2.0). I'll just point out the fallacies.

yea you are talking about speed not being equated to skill. this is not the case in genjutsu because speed of casting is equated to skill when you dont have to weave hand signs.

Fallacy of composition (taking a property of a part to describe the whole):


Someone skilled in Genjutsu cats them quick
Itachi is quicker than Kurenai when casting Genjutsu
Therefore, Itachi is more skilled in Genjutsu.

This fails because speed is PART of the skill, not the whole.

common man, you act like he was a normal uchiha and its just because he has a sharingan that he can do these things. pretty much all uchiha wouldnt be able to handle themselves with kurenai in genjutsu bit itachi was extremely skilled and thats why his sharingan was so powerful.

i dont understand where you have read sharingan give you the ability to reverse genjutsu but i havent seen it, pretty much all sharingan user would lose to her in genjutsu but itachis skills were what allowed him to reverse it.

Circular cause and consequence (the consequence is also the cause)


The Sharingan allows the user to cast excellent Genjutsu
Itachi's sharingan was so powerful can cast excellent Genjutsu

This fails because it's canon that the Sharingan is what allows the Uchiha to be masters of Genjutsu, and you're saying that was Itachi's skill in Genjutsu what made his sharingan so good.

actually it didnt end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stale mate in the genjutsu, she was infact in serious trouble and even when she did cancel it the fight was over anyway if not for kakashi.


again it didnt end in a stalemate, the genjutsu ended with itachi having the upperhand, thats why she tried to cancel it out because she saw she was at a disadvantage.

Nirvana's Fallacy (assuming the argument is invalid because the outcome isn't perfect)


The fight didn't end in a stalemate because Kurenai had to cancel the Genjutsu by biting her lip instead of reversing Itachi's genjutsu like he did

This fails because if she were to reverse the Genjutsu, that could start a loop of Itachi reversing Kurenai's genjutsu that was already reversing Itachi's reverse and so on. I don't know if you know, but Genjutsu consumes chakra and there were 2 more elements in the situation (Asuma and Kisame). Being on a Genjutsu loop would be futile, so her biting her lip was a valid way to counter Itachi, since he or Kisame could attack her at any given time.

then why did she do it in the first place? if she know who he is, why did she do it, is she just that stupid?

Historian's Fallacy (assuming the people making decisions had the same perspective and knowledge as the people analyzing the situation after it)


Kurenai knew who Itachi was and casted a Genjutsu on him
Itachi reversed her own Genjutsu
Therefore Kurenai is stupid for casting a Genjutsu

This fails because, although Kurenai knew who he was, she couldn't possibly know his exact skill on Genjutsu. She just happened to have the shorter end of the stick because he matched her skill.

the clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of itachi, but being controlled from somewhere else. his attacks were not the same level and he couldnt use alot of his techniques. you act like that was a fight with the real itachi, and that naruto would have been able to land a rasengan on him to fniish him, of course he wouldnt be able to, a 100% itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step wise then most.

Fallacy of necessity (placing unwarranted necessity in the conclusion)


Itachi's clone only had 30% of the original's chakra
Itachi can't perform as many jutsu at 30% as he can at 100%
Therefore, Itachi's clone can't possibly have the same jutsu Itachi does

This fails because the discrepancy of the quantity of chakra affects how many times a (sequence of) jutsu can be performed, not the quantity of jutsu that Itachi's clone can perform from his repertoire. For all we know, Itachi's clone could perform Susano'o, he probably didn't because he amount of chakra wouldn't let him have said jutsu active while casting others or the quality of Susano'o would be lower due to lower amounts of chakra, therefore not as effective as it would be.

you think kakashi improved that significantly from part 1 where he was on his toes the entire time and overwhelmed thinking about the situation.

Yet another case of Historian's fallacy.

we dont know that, we dont know what itachi had intended because we dont know his side. there were alot of factors in play so we dont know what he was thinking as of now.

you are going on what madara told you, you have no idea what itachi intended because he never told anyone that we know of.

Argument from ignorance (if not proven false, it must be true)


We don't know Itachi's version because he never told us directly without any corruption of the facts
Therefore anything I say about his intentions is valid.

This fails because what the story behind Itachi's actions was told by two separate persons (Madara and Danzou) and neither of them contradicted the other and all the possible questions were answered, so it's logical to say that Itachi's intentions are well known (and ultimately failed)

he killed danzo who is a shinobi from the old days that lives with in an handles his businees with in the shadows, nobody trusted him or iwll miss him. that doesnt mean he madaras puppet, we dont know what he is doing right now, he may be playing madara and this was to gain his trust for all we know.

Wrong direction (mixing cause with effect, trying to validate a point)


Sasuke killed Madara because he might be using Madara instead of the contrary

This fails because Madara set up the whole situation. If Madara didn't tell about Danzou's involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, if Madara didn't tell him that Danzou was in the Kage Summit and if Madara didn't put Sasuke right in front of Danzou to fight him, Sasuke would have 0 to work with Madara. Actually, if you remember, he bailed out of Akatsuki after "defeating" Killer Bee to set his own path, but Madara got on the way and he refused to get his brother's eyes when Madara proposed, which shouldn't happen if Sasuke was playing with Madara.

thx for finding the page but i meant the page translated, that looks like alot of writing in another language

Raising the bar (when confronted with valid evidence that contradicts one's point, s/he asks for better evidence)


The quote from the databook is not good enough because I don't know the context
The context is not good enough because I can't read it

For Cthulhu's sake, you have the page AND the translation. What the hell do you want more, Kishi himself telling you that?

stubborn_d0nkey
04-11-2011, 10:14 AM
Like I've said before, I dont see the uchiha (ie. the sharingan) having an inherent resistance to non-visual based genjutsu (or at least not nearly to the same extent).

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 10:28 AM
Fallacy of composition (taking a property of a part to describe the whole):


Someone skilled in Genjutsu cats them quick
Itachi is quicker than Kurenai when casting Genjutsu
Therefore, Itachi is more skilled in Genjutsu.

This fails because speed is PART of the skill, not the whole.


see the thing is you like to act really smart and point out fallacies but the fact is you lack understanding of what was actually wrtiten so many times when trying to do so. i never claimed he was greater in genjutsu because of his speed in casting, i only said it is a skill when looking at genjutsu because casting is a big part. not having to weave hand signs and just using a finger shows a greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of the whole.


Circular cause and consequence (the consequence is also the cause)


The Sharingan allows the user to cast excellent Genjutsu
Itachi's sharingan was so powerful can cast excellent Genjutsu

This fails because it's canon that the Sharingan is what allows the Uchiha to be masters of Genjutsu, and you're saying that was Itachi's skill in Genjutsu what made his sharingan so good.


it was his skill as a shinobi that made his sharingan so powerful, a normal sharingan user would not have beat kurenai in a battle of genjutsu because a lack of skill.


Nirvana's Fallacy (assuming the argument is invalid because the outcome isn't perfect)


The fight didn't end in a stalemate because Kurenai had to cancel the Genjutsu by biting her lip instead of reversing Itachi's genjutsu like he did

This fails because if she were to reverse the Genjutsu, that could start a loop of Itachi reversing Kurenai's genjutsu that was already reversing Itachi's reverse and so on. I don't know if you know, but Genjutsu consumes chakra and there were 2 more elements in the situation (Asuma and Kisame). Being on a Genjutsu loop would be futile, so her biting her lip was a valid way to counter Itachi, since he or Kisame could attack her at any given time.

the fight didnt end in a stalemate because the genjutsu battle ended with her trying to escape itachis advantage. she was at a disadvantage in the genjutsu and was forced to escape or be seriously injured. even after the genjutsu was escaped it was still itachis advantage. you are the one who is claiming she could reverse if she chose too but it wasnt the best move to factoring in the situation and chakra, that seems like all speculation to me.



Historian's Fallacy (assuming the people making decisions had the same perspective and knowledge as the people analyzing the situation after it)


Kurenai knew who Itachi was and casted a Genjutsu on him
Itachi reversed her own Genjutsu
Therefore Kurenai is stupid for casting a Genjutsu

This fails because, although Kurenai knew who he was, she couldn't possibly know his exact skill on Genjutsu. She just happened to have the shorter end of the stick because he matched her skill.

funny because itachi knew who she was and exactly what she was capable of.



Fallacy of necessity (placing unwarranted necessity in the conclusion)


Itachi's clone only had 30% of the original's chakra
Itachi can't perform as many jutsu at 30% as he can at 100%
Therefore, Itachi's clone can't possibly have the same jutsu Itachi does

This fails because the discrepancy of the quantity of chakra affects how many times a (sequence of) jutsu can be performed, not the quantity of jutsu that Itachi's clone can perform from his repertoire. For all we know, Itachi's clone could perform Susano'o, he probably didn't because he amount of chakra wouldn't let him have said jutsu active while casting others or the quality of Susano'o would be lower due to lower amounts of chakra, therefore not as effective as it would be. .

actually it does effect the quantity of jutsus that can be performed from his repetoire. he stated he could not use the mangekeyo, kakashi even commmented on the level of attacks being performed. i like how you say for all we know and you think its alright but when i do it im committing a fallacy some how as you said later in the post.





Yet another case of Historian's fallacy

Argument from ignorance (if not proven false, it must be true)


We don't know Itachi's version because he never told us directly without any corruption of the facts
Therefore anything I say about his intentions is valid.

This fails because what the story behind Itachi's actions was told by two separate persons (Madara and Danzou) and neither of them contradicted the other and all the possible questions were answered, so it's logical to say that Itachi's intentions are well known (and ultimately failed).


all that was said by danzo was that he ordered the massacre, that doesnt mean we know anything about itachis side of the story, we dont know his intentions or anything so to claim he intended this or intended that is not factual.


Wrong direction (mixing cause with effect, trying to validate a point)


Sasuke killed Madara because he might be using Madara instead of the contrary

This fails because Madara set up the whole situation. If Madara didn't tell about Danzou's involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, if Madara didn't tell him that Danzou was in the Kage Summit and if Madara didn't put Sasuke right in front of Danzou to fight him, Sasuke would have 0 to work with Madara. Actually, if you remember, he bailed out of Akatsuki after "defeating" Killer Bee to set his own path, but Madara got on the way and he refused to get his brother's eyes when Madara proposed, which shouldn't happen if Sasuke was playing with Madara..

he bailed out after capturing killer bee to do exactly what madara helped him do, go after the konoha elders. im not saying madara isnt tyring to manipulate sasuke thats obvious, im just saying it could be the other way around as well since we know his goal is to kill tobi and all.

Raising the bar (when confronted with valid evidence that contradicts one's point, s/he asks for better evidence)


The quote from the databook is not good enough because I don't know the context
The context is not good enough because I can't read it

For Cthulhu's sake, you have the page AND the translation. What the hell do you want more, Kishi himself telling you that?

1. that translation is horrible, 2. i cant read japanese so that page is uselse too me. 3. im not expert but it looks like more was written on that page.

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 11:47 AM
Chris Jerihico coined the phrase, and now I've actually seen one....

ASSCLOWN

This is beyond having a conversation with a wall. It'd be nice if the guy kept a consistent opinion about Itachi as well, it changes with the arguement. Sometimes he's more uber than the Broad because of his 'experience as a shinobi' (while he has feats, I've never heard other shinobi so in fear like he was a Battle God walking around slaying people, the Cat didn't even like to fight so beside the Uchiha Invasion that he overhaxxed the clan with Madara's help, where'd he get all of this 'experience'? Fighting a couple of jinks with help, and Deidara with moar help?), at other times his sharingan has bearing because its an undenyable hax, and you can't talk your way around it, no matter how you tried.

A genjutsu is an attack and unless the opponent has some instant dispel already activated, ANYONE can be caught in a genjutsu, such was the case with Itachi, it has less to do with either persons overall skill.

Numinous
04-11-2011, 12:04 PM
For the love of crap...

see the thing is you like to act really smart and point out fallacies but the fact is you lack understanding of what was actually written so many times when trying to do so. i never claimed he was greater in genjutsu because of his speed in casting, i only said it is a skill when looking at genjutsu because casting is a big part. not having to weave hand signs and just using a finger shows a greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of the whole.Hello, hypocrisy. You say you didn't say that casting speed was the reason you said he had greater skill, but you immediately state that the techniques he uses save time, therefore he had greater skill.

A canon example: both Itachi and Sasuke can cast Tsukuyomi, therefore they should be cast at the same speed. Funny thing is, Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is ridiculously lackluster while Itachi's Tsukuyomi is regarded as the best and there's where your fallacy of composition falls apart.

it was his skill as a shinobi that made his sharingan so powerful, a normal sharingan user would not have beat kurenai in a battle of genjutsu because a lack of skill.Nobody is saying that Itachi isn't skilled with his Genjutsu (just check the example I gave previously), but without Sharingan he wouldn't have such ability, and you, in previous posts, wanted to imply that Itachi's skill in Genjutsu is independent of his Sharingan, which is complete bullshit.

the fight didnt end in a stalemate because the genjutsu battle ended with her trying to escape itachis advantage. she was at a disadvantage in the genjutsu and was forced to escape or be seriously injured. even after the genjutsu was escaped it was still itachis advantage. you are the one who is claiming she could reverse if she chose too but it wasnt the best move to factoring in the situation and chakra, that seems like all speculation to me.
You're still on Nirvana's fallacy. Just think practically for a second and you'll see why Kurenai's best move was that.

Or if you don't come to that conclusion, I'll provide a theoretical situation akin to an RPG:

Say that you have 4 fighters with 1024 health points each:


Magic User A
Brawler A
Magic User B
Brawler B

Say that Magic User A has a spell to blast 50% of the target's current health that costs Y chakra and Magic User B has the ability to return spells he suffered back to the caster that costs Z chakra. Brawler B can do 64 points worth of damage.

Magic User A uses the spell, so Magic User B is down to 512 health points, but he returns the spell, so Magic User A is also down to 512 health points. Do you think the Magic User A should:


Use the spell again and again, for both magic users to have 256-->128-->64 (this if their chakra lasts that long), only to make an opening for Brawler B to attack Magic User A and take him down immediately or...
Accept that using the spell is futile if Magic User B will just return it and be ready in case either Magic User B or Brawler B attack him?

If you played any RPG, 2 is the obvious answer.

actually it does effect the quantity of jutsus that can be performed from his repetoire. he stated he could not use the mangekeyo, kakashi even commmented on the level of attacks being performed*sigh* Do you even read what I wrote? If he could use Sharingan, he could use Mangekyo Sharingan, simple as that. The problem with the clone is that it lacks a severe amount of chakra, therefore limiting how many jutsu can be performed or how powerful they are considering the amount of chakra. Because what good is casting Amaterasu if it lasts a moment and only burns a bush? That's where you plead to necessity of real Itachi for the whole repertoire, while logically that isn't exclusively necessary.

i like how you say for all we know and you think its alright but when i do it im committing a fallacy some how as you said later in the post.Except when I pointed out the fallacy, it wasn't for the expression used (that would be incredibly stupid), it was for the idea expressed.

all that was said by danzo was that he ordered the massacre, that doesnt mean we know anything about itachis side of the story, we dont know his intentions or anything so to claim he intended this or intended that is not factual.
Stop using arguments from ignorance where there's plenty of canonical evidence saying otherwise.

he bailed out after capturing killer bee to do exactly what madara helped him do, go after the konoha elders.Except, if Madara didn't appeared in front of Team Taka, Sasuke would still be pressing forward toward Konoha and who knows what would have happened. The fact is, without Madara, Sasuke wouldn't possess that information.

im just saying it could be the other way around as well since we know his goal is to kill tobi and all.Pardon me, but wut? I probably missed that part, but when exactly did Sasuke say "My goal is to kill Uchiha Madara" or something like that?

1. that translation is horribleAnd yet, a non-native English speaker like me understood it. Go figure that one out.

2. i cant read japanese so that page is useless too me.Kael provided the translation, so you can match it with the page (context).

3. I'm not an expert but it looks like more was written on that page. Well, there's the graph and pictures, but outside of that I think you're just pouting. Because, let's see:

14 words, 53 characters on your (corrected) quote.

Here's the translation in Portuguese:

Eu não sou um especialista mas parece-me que mais foi escrito nessa página.

13 words, 63 characters in this translation.

Now French:

Je ne suis pas un specialist mais il semble plus a été écrit sur cette page.

16 words, 61 characters in this translation.

Now, let's see Spanish:

Yo no soy un experto pero parece que más estaba escrito en esa página.

14 words, 57 characters in this translation.

If you still didn't see the point of this exercise, I pity you.

Wolverine
04-11-2011, 12:35 PM
^Did KYF just learn hacking?

Numinous
04-11-2011, 12:36 PM
^Did KYF just learn hacking?

KYF took days to return to the forums when the domain was changed. I pretty much doubt he knows how to hack.

Wolverine
04-11-2011, 12:41 PM
KYF took days to return to the forums when the domain was changed. I pretty much doubt he knows how to hack.

Then my fears of stupidity being contagious were true. Oh Lord!

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 01:14 PM
Continual response to those whom desire to argue with the make up of the known world is futile, leave the Borg alone, maybe he'll find other worlds to assimilate.

kael03
04-11-2011, 02:11 PM
thx for finding the page but i meant the page translated, that looks like alot of writing in another language

Yuuhi Kurenai Jounin Pg.163

Ninja Registration: 010881
Birthday: June 11th (28 Gemini)
Height: 169.1cm weight: 54.4kg, b/t: AB
Personality: Unyielding, honest and simple
Likes: Soju, Vodka, salted Octopus, Taking a glass of wine at night(or dinner)
Dislikes: Cake
Specialties: Types of Genjutsu

The peaceful Kunoichi who combines wit and beauty, leads astray with her Genjutsu
The Kunoichi has a firm aloofness...and is referred to as 'image', Kakashi's banter causes her cheeks to blush, making her
unexpectedly except her usual purity. She excels in genjutsu, catching Itachi with it, a game between their equal genjutsu skills developed.

"It ends with this"

There's the translation. Translating a different language, especially one as complex as Japanese, isn't a 1:1 character/word ratio. But you now have a picture as to what Kishi is talking about so now, kindly shut the hell up and accept the fact that Kurenai and Itachi are equals in genjutsu skills. Kishi even put the illusion she cast on Itachi for reference to the "game".

Vengeance
04-11-2011, 05:43 PM
yea you are talking about speed not being equated to skill. this is not the case in genjutsu because speed of casting is equated to skill when you dont have to weave hand signs.
You're retarded. Please note my analogies in previous post which explains just why speed doesn't equate skill. I grow tired of a repeating game.

common man, you act like he was a normal uchiha and its just because he has a sharingan that he can do these things. pretty much all uchiha wouldnt be able to handle themselves with kurenai in genjutsu bit itachi was extremely skilled and thats why his sharingan was so powerful.
Pretty much all Uchiha with 3 tomoe sharingan are said to be proficient in genjutsu. So more likely than not the majority of elite Uchiha would be able to reverse Kurenai's genjutsu. Sasuke who isn't a genjutsu specialist has shown the ability to reverse genjutsu.

actually it didnt end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stale mate in the genjutsu, she was infact in serious trouble and even when she did cancel it the fight was over anyway if not for kakashi.

then why did she do it in the first place? if she know who he is, why did she do it, is she just that stupid?

again it didnt end in a stalemate, the genjutsu ended with itachi having the upperhand, thats why she tried to cancel it out because she saw she was at a disadvantage.
This is all basically saying the same thing. The reason why the genjutsu exchange ended in a stalemate is simple. Had it not ended in a stalemate then Kurenai would have been defeated when Itachi reversed the genjutsu. Since she was able to brake the genjutsu in question that exchange becomes a stalemate or for the simple minded a draw. Get it, Get it, Get it? Good moving on.

the clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of itachi, but being controlled from somewhere else. his attacks were not the same level and he couldnt use alot of his techniques. you act like that was a fight with the real itachi, and that naruto would have been able to land a rasengan on him to fniish him, of course he wouldnt be able to, a 100% itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step wise then most. you think kakashi improved that significantly from part 1 where he was on his toes the entire time and overwhelmed thinking about the situation.
You missed the entire point of what this is actually about. I'll dumb it down for you. Some idiot mentioned that no one ever got the drop on Itachi. I pointed out that Kakashi actually did get the drop on Itachi. Now getting the drop on someone means tricking them or catching them off guard. The amount of chakra Itachi had access to is completely irrelevant since what is being discussed is whether or not someone got the drop, tricked, outsmarted, & or caught Itachi off guard. Which is exactly what Kakashi did with a shadow clone. Get it, Get it, Get it? Good moving on.

we dont know that, we dont know what itachi had intended because we dont know his side. he was clearly aware that sasuke would come to and attack konoha because he spoke to naruto about it before he was even dead.
Wow just wow... I mean really now can we say dumbarse? Listen kid we do know what happened & what Itachi's intentions for Sasuke were. It's all clearly explained in the manga by not only Madara but Danzou as well. Two different people saying the same thing yet we don't know? Surely you can't seriously believe that Itachi's original intent was to have Sasuke become a rouge ninja bent on the destruction of the shinobi world. I mean really now the pacifist who killed his own clan to prevent war wanted his younger brother who he loved to become a homicidal maniac?

we dont know that, thats what we have been told by others, we dont know his actualy intentions coming from him, there were alot of factors in play so we dont know what he was thinking as of now.
Read this please. (http://fandom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40970)

If the links happen to be outdated well you could always search for them yourself(don't be lazy). Seriously read the whole thing before even responding to me again.

he killed danzo who is a shinobi from the old days that lives with in an handles his businees with in the shadows, nobody trusted him or iwll miss him.
Huuu?? What does any of that have to do with Danzou being the acting Kage of Konoha?

that doesnt mean he madaras puppet,
Actually it does. Madara pulled out a pokeball & said Sasuke I choose you! What happened after that? Sasuke killed Danzou which is what Madara wanted him to do. So yes Sasuke is a puppet.

we dont know what he is doing right now, he may be playing madara and this was to gain his trust for all we know. he said his objectives lie within the shadows, those objectives are to rid the world of these shinobi such as orochimaru,danzo,madara etc so how is he a puppet.
His current objective is to destroy the shinobi world. Sasuke wants to throw the world into utter chaos so the Uchiha name can be purified. Haven't you been paying attention to the manga?

you are going on what madara told you, you have no idea what itachi intended because he never told anyone that we know of.
You're a fucking idiot.

i dont understand where you have read sharingan give you the ability to reverse genjutsu but i havent seen it,
Pretty much every 3 tomoe sharingan user has shown the ability to do so.

pretty much all sharingan user would lose to her in genjutsu but itachis skills were what allowed him to reverse it.
Again you're a fucking idiot. The Uchiha's reputation was that of fear. If faced in a 1 vs 1 situation against an Uchiha the proper thing to do was to run. This was because of their elite abilities with genjutsu.

im saying thats retarded, you thinking that she can catch itachi in a genjutsu but not viceversa, he didnt even have to cast a genjutsu to catch her lol, he caught her in her own.
& I'm saying you're retarded. Then explain to me exactly how Itachi would get her in a genjutsu powerful enough to stop her without his sharingan?

ask me anything
04-11-2011, 06:26 PM
Holy fucking shitttttttt!!!!!!! Animefanboy has left me nearly speechless. I gave him the fucking databook page, and that wasn't enough. Now he wants it in English. Yeah man, I'll get right on that. I'll just translate it for you, edit it onto the page, clean up the image and repost in in a few hours when I'm done. WTF?!!!! Are you fucking kidding me. Fuck you dude. Fuck you.

Seriously, don't give me that crap about the translation being bad. It's perfectly fine. You know how I know??? Because several sites have the same thing. Mangahelpers and Narutoforums both have the same shit and both are known to have a good reputation when it comes to their shit being right.

Before you even attempt to question the legitimacy of the "fan made" databook translation, just realize that the naruto manga you read every week is also a fan made translation, which is basically what your whole argument is based off of to begin with. So how do you know what is in the manga is translated right to begin with. I'm guessing you assume they are professionals that take their hobby seriously. If so, then assume the same for everybody and not just the ones whose translation helps your arguments.

tl;dr Shut up and move along. Goddamn internet weebo.

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 06:31 PM
Anime Fans next move,

a. Repeat the same nonsense

b. Subtract from Kurenai to attempt to support his point

c. Add to Itachi's powers in a what if world, create a mock battle, and expects the world to agree with his result.

That is all, and I've played a part in all 3 in the past, I will not be assimulated. Ask, the Dude is maaadd lazy, he spews crap out of his mouth, and never supports it with facts, and then attempts to bash yours. When all else fails, Kishi didn't know what he was doing.

Therefore, moving on,....

Konan vs. Orochimaru (at the point when he faces 4 tail Naruto).

Battlefield, same place Madara vs. Konan, have at it.

kael03
04-11-2011, 06:32 PM
I think I got that translation from Narutoforums. Mangahelpers is my usual go to site for translations but I couldn't find Kurenai's to save my life.

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 06:39 PM
I think I got that translation from Narutoforums. Mangahelpers is my usual go to site for translations but I couldn't find Kurenai's to save my life.

It dosen't matter, Anime Fans on a rant about what Kurenai isn't, or can't do. It's his responsibility to disprove that shes on par with Itachi. His simple eye test may work for him, but not the rest of the world, the REAL world where people live according to facts. I'd like to think he could find something, but his legend is already written from past situations. If he were a turd he couldn't find the asshole, look at what he writes, he's permanently stuck.

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 06:43 PM
Hello, hypocrisy. You say you didn't say that casting speed was the reason you said he had greater skill, but you immediately state that the techniques he uses save time, therefore he had greater skill.

A canon example: both Itachi and Sasuke can cast Tsukuyomi, therefore they should be cast at the same speed. Funny thing is, Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is ridiculously lackluster while Itachi's Tsukuyomi is regarded as the best and there's where your fallacy of composition falls apart. .

you are beyond retarded, you seriously argue points that were never said all the time. its like you cant comprehend whats being written. im going to say it again, casting genjutsu with just a finger rather then having to weave hand signs shows greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of genjutsu. its a factor but not the only thing to look at but you cant comprehend that for some reason

Nobody is saying that Itachi isn't skilled with his Genjutsu (just check the example I gave previously), but without Sharingan he wouldn't have such ability, and you, in previous posts, wanted to imply that Itachi's skill in Genjutsu is independent of his Sharingan, which is complete bullshit..

where do you get that he wouldnt be skilled in genjutsu with out his sharingan, he is one of the most skilled shinobi in the manga, thats why he can use the sharingan so well. there are tons of fodder uchiha with sharingan that have an advantage over the avg fodder but doesnt mean they have amazing genjutsu ability. you dont just get amazing genjutsu ability with the sharingan, you have to be skilled to use the sharingan that way.



*sigh* Do you even read what I wrote? If he could use Sharingan, he could use Mangekyo Sharingan, simple as that. The problem with the clone is that it lacks a severe amount of chakra, therefore limiting how many jutsu can be performed or how powerful they are considering the amount of chakra. Because what good is casting Amaterasu if it lasts a moment and only burns a bush? That's where you plead to necessity of real Itachi for the whole repertoire, while logically that isn't exclusively necessary. ..

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259/7

actually he cant use the mangekeyo if he could use the sharingan because he was a 30% clone, did you read what i wrote?



*Stop using arguments from ignorance where there's plenty of canonical evidence saying otherwise. ..

cannon evidence from the 2 least trust worthy shinobi in the manga but never once have we heard itachis intentions from itachi himself so its not cannon.



*Pardon me, but wut? I probably missed that part, but when exactly did Sasuke say "My goal is to kill Uchiha Madara" or something like that?..

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/385/3

tobi who is the co conspiritor in the massacre he wants to kill.


*And yet, a non-native English speaker like me understood it. Go figure that one out..

no wonder you constantly argue points that are irrelevant and take things out of context and misinterpret things so many times.

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 06:47 PM
Continual response to those whom desire to argue with the make up of the known world is futile, leave the Borg alone, maybe he'll find other worlds to assimilate.

you are one of the dumbest people in this forum, i have never seen you once stay on topic in an arguement because you are too stupid to realize the shit you are spweing is irrelevant to what anyone is talking about

There's the translation. Translating a different language, especially one as complex as Japanese, isn't a 1:1 character/word ratio. But you now have a picture as to what Kishi is talking about so now, kindly shut the hell up and accept the fact that Kurenai and Itachi are equals in genjutsu skills. Kishi even put the illusion she cast on Itachi for reference to the "game".

will not admit it. things in the translation dont make sense.

edit:vengeance i will get to your post some other time

Wolverine
04-11-2011, 06:49 PM
Now I'm sure, KYF has learnt hacking...

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 06:54 PM
i rather be associated with kyf then most of you retards

kael03
04-11-2011, 06:54 PM
you are beyond retarded, you seriously argue points that were never said all the time. its like you cant comprehend whats being written. im going to say it again, casting genjutsu with just a finger rather then having to weave hand signs shows greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of genjutsu. its a factor but not the only thing to look at but you cant comprehend that for some reason

Or it could be a different genjutsu, altogether. It's not like he cast the same Genjutsu Kurenai hit him with on Naruto. Just because he's shown casting a completely different genjutsu with one finger doesn't mean he's better than Kurenai, it means he knows a genjutsu that takes pointing to cast. Nowhere is that a sign of skill.

Hell, Kakashi isn't nearly as skilled with genjutsu and he was able to use his sharingan to put Zabuza under a genjutsu that made him believe Kakashi was reading his mind. Kakashi didn't use any form of hand seals to do that, and he caught Zabuza with a genjutsu.

where do you get that he wouldnt be skilled in genjutsu with out his sharingan, he is one of the most skilled shinobi in the manga, thats why he can use the sharingan so well.

It's also because of the sharingan that he's one of the most skilled shinobi. Do you see the circular reasoning here? If he didn't have the sharingan, he wouldn't be nearly as powerful as you're fanning (and you are fanning) him to be. Simple as that.

there are tons of fodder uchiha with sharingan that have an advantage over the avg fodder but doesnt mean they have amazing genjutsu ability.

He trained extensively with genjutsu to get where he's at. Kurenai trained extensively with genjutsu to get where she's at. Both of them are equally skilled, get that through your thick skull.

You want to know why they're equally skilled? KISHI SAID SO. Deal with it. The page Ama linked even shows Kurenai using her genjutsu on Itachi when Kishi said "equal genjutsu skills". You can't pull the "out of context card" anymore.

Wolverine
04-11-2011, 06:58 PM
i rather be associated with kyf then most of you retards

Hmm... interesting.

The pack of morons just got a new addition.

kael03
04-11-2011, 07:00 PM
will not admit it. things in the translation dont make sense.

Like what? I'll go back and break it down if you need help.

Yuuhi Kurenai Jounin Pg.163

Ninja Registration: 010881
Birthday: June 11th (28 Gemini)
Height: 169.1cm weight: 54.4kg, b/t: AB
Personality: Unyielding, honest and simple
Likes: Soju, Vodka, salted Octopus, Taking a glass of wine at night(or dinner)
Dislikes: Cake
Specialties: Types of Genjutsu

This is self-explanatory. Simply this translates into minor factoids.

The peaceful Kunoichi who combines wit and beauty, leads astray with her Genjutsu

Translation: She's not aggressive and her beauty leads people to believe she's not a threat. This belief is sorely mistaken by her ability with Genjutsu.

The Kunoichi has a firm aloofness...and is referred to as 'image', Kakashi's banter causes her cheeks to blush, making her unexpectedly except her usual purity.

Translation: She seems distant towards everyone, but this is not the case. Kakashi points this out and it embarrasses her.

She excels in genjutsu, catching Itachi with it, a game between their equal genjutsu skills developed.

Translation: She's a genjutsu specialist. She caught Itachi in a genjutsu. Then when he broke free she showed that her skills were equal to his.

"It ends with this"

What she said when she had Itachi in her genjutsu.

Wolverine
04-11-2011, 07:12 PM
To put it simply for you, Animefan...

Kurenai and Itachi are both equally skilled at Genjutsu. However, Itachi, being an Uchiha with one of the strongest Sharingan, is more talented when it comes to Genjutsu. That is what makes you think of him as better than Kurenai. In case you still don't get it, I'll break it down for you...

'Skill' is something that is acquired out of practice.

'Talent' is more of an innate ability to do things better than others.

As you can see from the aforementioned meanings, skill and talent are two differnt concepts. Another example using Itachi, Sasuke and Naruto. Sasuke is more talented, but Naruto has better skill in Ninjutsu. However, Sasuke is skilled in Genjutsu, but Itachi is more talented than him in it.

If this doesn't solve it for you, then nothing will.

AOTKorby
04-11-2011, 07:24 PM
you are beyond retarded, you seriously argue points that were never said all the time. its like you cant comprehend whats being written. im going to say it again, casting genjutsu with just a finger rather then having to weave hand signs shows greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of genjutsu. its a factor but not the only thing to look at but you cant comprehend that for some reason

Frog Song which took signs and several minutes of set-up say hi. Most absurdly powerful genjutsu in the manga short of Tsukuyomi. Takes for-fucking-ever to set up, is a stronger, more skill-intensive technique than any other genjutsu shown, Tsukuyomi notwithstanding.

where do you get that he wouldnt be skilled in genjutsu with out his sharingan, he is one of the most skilled shinobi in the manga, thats why he can use the sharingan so well. there are tons of fodder uchiha with sharingan that have an advantage over the avg fodder but doesnt mean they have amazing genjutsu ability. you dont just get amazing genjutsu ability with the sharingan, you have to be skilled to use the sharingan that way.

The Sharingan is explicitly stated to be extremely good at casting genjutsu. Do you remember Chiyo's whole rant about how you don't fight Uchiha one-on-one? Yeah. It's a known fact among ninja from the other nations that, for the most part, all Uchiha are threatening potential users of Genjutsu. Most of Itachi's really strong genjutsu are cast from his Sharingan (the finger genjutsu was nearly broken by Naruto of all people). Itachi's natural skill is in genjutsu, as is Kurenai's. Let's not forget that he was taught by Madara of all people, so yes, he's going to be extremely skilled. It does not change the fact that his little Genjutsu struggle with Kurenai was effectively a draw, and it doesn't change that the DB effectively states in every possible way that they were fighting as equals in Genjutsu.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/259/7

actually he cant use the mangekeyo if he could use the sharingan because he was a 30% clone, did you read what i wrote?

Wow. This is dumb. Num stated that Itachi's clone was not somehow incapable of using the Mangekyou. It just did not have enough chakra to use Mangekyou techniques. It's not as if the clone lacked the MS altogether.

cannon evidence from the 2 least trust worthy shinobi in the manga but never once have we heard itachis intentions from itachi himself so its not cannon.

The la-la-la-la-I'mnotlistening defense? Really? Things that have been stated should never be taken as highly likely to be false before they are proven to be in a "sudden twist". And you really think Danzo was lying to Sasuke there? YES! I'M GOING TO TELL SASUKE A LIE THAT WILL PISS HIM OFF INCREDIBLY AND ONLY INCREASE HIS DESIRE TO KILL ME! THIS IS SO SMART! Not to mention, you know, the CRAPTONS OF FORESHADOWING Kishi gave us. Not to mention Itachi's little speech to Naruto. Really, man. If you're going to try to use the Lying Madara Lies argument, at least use it on something which no other source has confirmed in any way.

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/385/3

tobi who is the co conspiritor in the massacre he wants to kill.

Which he promptly forgot about the moment Madara fed him the story of the Uchiha Massacre and sugarcoated it to try to make the Uchiha seem like blameless victims.

no wonder you constantly argue points that are irrelevant and take things out of context and misinterpret things so many times.

And yet he types in better English than some 97% of this forum. You are a part of that estimated statistic. As evidenced clearly by "conspiritor", or as a competent English speaker knows, a "conspirator". Seriously, even your internet browser should have told you that you were retarded for even typing that.

kael03
04-11-2011, 07:47 PM
I wonder how long it will take for Animefan to post with a response that essentially equates to sticking his fingers in his ears, shutting his eyes, and saying very loudly "lalalalalalala I can't hear you! lalalalalalala!!"

Wolverine
04-11-2011, 07:51 PM
I wonder how long it will take for Animefan to post with a response that essentially equates to sticking his fingers in his ears, shutting his eyes, and saying very loudly "lalalalalalala I am an idiot! lalalalalalala!!"

Ahh! There. Fixed.

ask me anything
04-11-2011, 08:18 PM
I wonder how long it will take for Animefan to post with a response that essentially equates to sticking his fingers in his ears, shutting his eyes, and saying very loudly "lalalila was the smartest person to ever come on this forum!!!! lalalila lalalila lalalila!!"

Now this is fixed. >;}~

kael03
04-11-2011, 08:36 PM
Now this is fixed. >;}~

Why did you have to go and do that to my post? That's just mean.

ask me anything
04-11-2011, 09:11 PM
Why did you have to go and do that to my post? That's just mean.

LOL I know, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity. He did say he would like to be associated with KYF, and from there it isn't too much of a leap in intelligence to get to lalalia, amirite. :D

kael03
04-11-2011, 09:19 PM
It's still mean :(

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 09:28 PM
you are one of the dumbest people in this forum, i have never seen you once stay on topic in an arguement because you are too stupid to realize the shit you are spweing is irrelevant to what anyone is talking about



will not admit it. things in the translation dont make sense.

edit:vengeance i will get to your post some other time

I'm one of the dumbest people in the forum, YOU'RE arguing with multiple people over manga, and databooks facts that aren't fitting into your rendition of Naruto, and that makes you what exactly?

Or it could be a different genjutsu, altogether. It's not like he cast the same Genjutsu Kurenai hit him with on Naruto. Just because he's shown casting a completely different genjutsu with one finger doesn't mean he's better than Kurenai, it means he knows a genjutsu that takes pointing to cast. Nowhere is that a sign of skill.

Hell, Kakashi isn't nearly as skilled with genjutsu and he was able to use his sharingan to put Zabuza under a genjutsu that made him believe Kakashi was reading his mind. Kakashi didn't use any form of hand seals to do that, and he caught Zabuza with a genjutsu.



It's also because of the sharingan that he's one of the most skilled shinobi. Do you see the circular reasoning here? If he didn't have the sharingan, he wouldn't be nearly as powerful as you're fanning (and you are fanning) him to be. Simple as that.



He trained extensively with genjutsu to get where he's at. Kurenai trained extensively with genjutsu to get where she's at. Both of them are equally skilled, get that through your thick skull.

You want to know why they're equally skilled? KISHI SAID SO. Deal with it. The page Ama linked even shows Kurenai using her genjutsu on Itachi when Kishi said "equal genjutsu skills". You can't pull the "out of context card" anymore.

Notice when Animie Fan actually loses with his points, he just shuts up about that topic, notice he hasen't spoken on the Hyuugas and they're immunity to genjutsu. Also notice he's saying the exact same things over and over, and people are doing the same. He's prolly in heaven because its easier to whine and bitch about how Itachi has no equals because in this topic he has the 'stronger' character, and much rather enjoy that environment, than explaining Neji, or Rock Lee during the chuunin exams having the ability to defeat a Jounin Kuniochi. In that arena he had no legs to stand on, so he digressed to bashing the Broad because she would toast his fanboys. If she caught Itachi that quick, even though he reversed it, how quickly would those green genins get tossed?

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 09:51 PM
Notice when Animie Fan actually loses with his points, he just shuts up about that topic, notice he hasen't spoken on the Hyuugas and they're immunity to genjutsu. Also notice he's saying the exact same things over and over, and people are doing the same. He's prolly in heaven because its easier to whine and bitch about how Itachi has no equals because in this topic he has the 'stronger' character, and much rather enjoy that environment, than explaining Neji, or Rock Lee during the chuunin exams having the ability to defeat a Jounin Kuniochi. In that arena he had no legs to stand on, so he digressed to bashing the Broad because she would toast his fanboys. If she caught Itachi that quick, even though he reversed it, how quickly would those green genins get tossed?

its called the topic shifted, some how you amaze me everytime you go ahead and type something up, i have the stronger character so i enjoy it mroe, jesus christ you need help, just having that thought cross your mind is unbelievable

ninjalostboy95
04-11-2011, 10:02 PM
you are beyond retarded, you seriously argue points that were never said all the time. its like you cant comprehend whats being written.

Quoted for hypocrisy.

you are one of the dumbest people in this forum, i have never seen you once stay on topic in an arguement because you are too stupid to realize the shit you are spweing is irrelevant to what anyone is talking about

Aren't we hypocritical today?

will not admit it. things in the translation dont make sense.

You won't admit it? So you know the translation makes sense, but won't admit it? Good job.

No joke, wise up bro. Holy shit.

AniMeFaN
04-11-2011, 10:08 PM
Quoted for hypocrisy..

i understand what people are saying, i dont go off and argue a point that the other person never claimed, not being hyporcritical

Aren't we hypocritical today?..

i dont have a problem going off topic about things that are irrlevant to the topic being argued. so not really hypocrtical

You won't admit it? So you know the translation makes sense, but won't admit it? Good job.

No joke, wise up bro. Holy shit.

actually you quoted me saying it doesnt make sense

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 10:23 PM
its called the topic shifted, some how you amaze me everytime you go ahead and type something up, i have the stronger character so i enjoy it mroe, jesus christ you need help, just having that thought cross your mind is unbelievable

Why did it shift? According to your theory, any Hyuuga could beat Itachi, because he could see his chakra points, therefore genjutsu wouldn't work against him. You stated 'genjutsu wouldn't work against Neji'. Wheres your proof?

The only thing you've stated that made any factual sense is that Itachi wasn't privvy to using his MS through the clone of him. You spew this Finger Jutsu crap about Itachi, as if you actually did more than see them in the manga, or the anime, and act as if Itachi explained the usage of it, the chakra use it'll take, blah blah...these are non-real magical type moves made up in Kishi's head for his characters. If he dosen't explain the specifics, you may use your imagination to guess, that dosen't make your imaginary thoughts correct.

Now something a lot more meaningful in the VS. Thread, a real battle...

Orochimaru was a beast during his time, but basically bijuus/ and ocular powers were in his path as his greatest stumbling blocks.
Konan though she didn't have ocular powers, she would've been quite formidable in the area she fought Madara. Vs. Pein or Madara Konan stood zero shot, but lessor shinobi would be in trouble.
Though Orochimaru could 'regenerate' and come back, I don't know if he'd have an answer for that last jutsu she attempted vs. Madara. The one way we know he escaped was Inzagi, while that dosen't seem enough, and something else happened also that no one can explain, even Konan was like no way. But because Orochimaru had edge, he wouldn't go down easily. He could possibly hide underground for some attacks, and she could fly to avoid some of his. I don't think she'd allow him enough time to whip out his version of Edo Tensei, but Oro was a master of talking your head off about how great he is, how great you ain't, then bam, shits on top of you. He had access to A LOT of jutsu as well, something says maybe not enough though.

ninjalostboy95
04-11-2011, 10:25 PM
i understand what people are saying, i dont go off and argue a point that the other person never claimed, not being hypocritical

Sure you do. You never argued a point that the other person didn't claim? You never argued anything irrelevant to the topic? Like when you talked about your evaluation of Neo on the forum and his performance in debating or when you added Itachi's true intentions into the argument? Just give up already.

i dont have a problem going off topic about things that are irrlevant to the topic being argued. so not really hypocrtical

You just criticized Neo for arguing so called "Irrelevant" points to a topic whenever he participates in an argument. Back pedalling already?

actually you quoted me saying it doesnt make sense

Did you miss "Will not admit it"?

kael03
04-11-2011, 10:26 PM
i understand what people are saying, i dont go off and argue a point that the other person never claimed, not being hyporcritical

...

i dont have a problem going off topic about things that are irrlevant to the topic being argued. so not really hypocrtical

Do you even read the shit you write? You just contradicted yourself in the same post.

NeoKakarott023
04-11-2011, 10:37 PM
Isn't there a 'fanfiction' section in which a fan CAN GO THERE AND CREATE THEY'RE FAN WORLD? Go to AnimeFans profile/past post, it'll explain a lot. Have a profitable day AnimeFan, no more words for you.

AniMeFaN
04-12-2011, 07:38 AM
Why did it shift? According to your theory, any Hyuuga could beat Itachi, because he could see his chakra points,.

i dont even have to go past your first sentence, according to my theory any hyuuga can beat itachi, wtf are you on seriously. you dont have a brain.

Sure you do. You never argued a point that the other person didn't claim? You never argued anything irrelevant to the topic? Like when you talked about your evaluation of Neo on the forum and his performance in debating or when you added Itachi's true intentions into the argument? Just give up already.

its not like i just randomly attacked neo, he conisitantly tried to take shots at me. i didnt bring up itachis intentions, i countered someone comment on his intentions, you seriously are an annoying little kid, just stfu and mind your own business you werent even a part of any of the converstations so there is no point to these little comments you are making.


You just criticized Neo for arguing so called "Irrelevant" points to a topic whenever he participates in an argument. Back pedalling already?.

damn you annoying, backpedalling about what. you are an idiot.


Did you miss "Will not admit it"?

no i didnt, did you miss teh part where you quote me saying this" i will not admit they are equals and the translation doesnt make sense" and then go ahead and say i know but wont admit it, your really annoying and just making shit up.

Vengeance
04-12-2011, 08:05 AM
In other news let's see the public's reaction to Armadillo dick chapter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ond8oCIzWWQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5V3gvEWbUg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6cfbzXf_g&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbEiBN9U96A

Numinous
04-12-2011, 08:14 AM
no wonder you constantly argue points that are irrelevant and take things out of context and misinterpret things so many times.

Wait, wait, wait, wait....

Did you seriously belittle me for not being a native English speaker? Even not regarding the blatant xenophobia of this statement, my English grammar, although not perfect, is pretty good; I don't have any difficulties with English semantics found in this forum and my English reading comprehension is just fine.

The same thing I can say about my French, Spanish and Portuguese, so it's rather ironic belittling someone who is fluent in 4 languages when you can't even write properly your mother language. Want a taste of your own medicine?

common man, you act like he was a normal uchiha and its just because he has a sharingan that he can do these things. pretty much all uchiha wouldnt be able to handle themselves with kurenai in genjutsu bit itachi was extremely skilled and thats why his sharingan was so powerful.Come on* man, you act like he was a normal Uchiha and it's just because he has a Sharingan that he can do these things. Pretty much all Uchiha wouldn't be able to handle themselves with Kurenai in genjutsu but** Itachi was extremely skilled and that's why his Sharingan was so powerful.

* common = usual, ordinary
** bit = small portion, little part

actually it didnt end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stale mate in the genjutsu, she was infact in serious trouble and even when she did cancel it the fight was over anyway if not for kakashi.Actually, it didn't end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stalemate in the genjutsu, she was in fact in serious trouble and, even when she did cancel it, the fight was over anyway if not for Kakashi.

the clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of itachi, but being controlled from somewhere else. his attacks were not the same level and he couldnt use alot of his techniques. you act like that was a fight with the real itachi, and that naruto would have been able to land a rasengan on him to fniish him, of course he wouldnt be able to, a 100% itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step wise then most. you think kakashi improved that significantly from part 1 where he was on his toes the entire time and overwhelmed thinking about the situation.The clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of Itachi and Kisame's chakra*, but being controlled from somewhere else. His attacks were not of the same level and he couldn't use a lot of his techniques. You act like it was a fight with the real Itachi and that Naruto would have been able to land a Rasengan on him to finish; of course he wouldn't be able to, a 100% Itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step-wise than** most. You think Kakashi improved that significantly from Part 1, where he was on his tows the entire time and overwhelmingly*** thinking about the situation.

*If you are using the plural, post what makes it plural. Chakra is written the same way in the singular as it does in the plural.
** Than is used for comparisons, then for causations.
*** You use an adverb before the verb (if they don't form a distinct, valid verbal form, like "have been" or "be doing"), not another verb which semantics clash with said verb.

he killed danzo who is a shinobi from the old days that lives with in an handles his businees with in the shadows, nobody trusted him or iwll miss him. that doesnt mean he madaras puppet, we dont know what he is doing right now, he may be playing madara and this was to gain his trust for all we know. he said his objectives lie within the shadows, those objectives are to rid the world of these shinobi such as orochimaru,danzo,madara etc so how is he a puppet.He killed Danzou, who is a shinobi from the old days that lives within the and handles his business within the shadows, nobody trusted him or will miss him. That doesn't mean he's Madara's puppet, we don't know what he is doing right now, hemay be playing with Madara and this is* to gain to gain his trust for all we know. He said his objectives lie within the shadows, those objectives are to rid the world of those shinobi such as Orochimaru, Danzou, Madara, etc. So how is he a puppet?

*If you are using the present in the rest of the phrase, stick to the present form in the verbs

im saying thats retarded, you thinking that she can catch itachi in a genjutsu but not viceversa, he didnt even have to cast a genjutsu to catch her lol, he caught her in her own. I'm saying that's retarded, you thinking that she can catch Itachi in a genjutsu but not the contrary*, he didn't even have to cast a genjutsu lol, he caught her in her own.

*Vice-versa means "conversely" and it's only used when reciprocity is observed ("and vice-versa"); when it's not observed, "the contrary" (as in "but not the contrary") is semantically better.

actually it does effect the quantity of jutsus that can be performed from his repetoire. he stated he could not use the mangekeyo, kakashi even commmented on the level of attacks being performed. i like how you say for all we know and you think its alright but when i do it im committing a fallacy some how as you said later in the post.Actually it does affect* the quantity of jutsu** that can be performed from his repertoire. He stated he could not use the Mangekyou Sharingan, Kakashi even commented on the level of attacks being performed. I like how you say "for all we know" and you think it's alright but, when I do it, I'm committing a fallacy somehow, as you said later in the post.

*effect= result, influence
** jutsu is written the same way in the singular as it does in the plural.

cannon evidence from the 2 least trust worthy shinobi in the manga but never once have we heard itachis intentions from itachi himself so its not cannon.Canon* evidence from the 2 least trustworthy shinobi in the manga, but never once have we heard Itachi's intention from Itachi himself, so it's not canon.

* Cannon = piece of artillery that uses gunpowder to shoot big projectiles.

tobi who is the co conspiritor in the massacre he wants to kill.Tobi, who is the co-conspirator in the massacre he wants to kill.

i rather be associated with kyf then most of you retards I'd rather be associated with KYF than most of you retards.

And well, that pretty much explains your logic deficiency.

Vengeance
04-12-2011, 08:20 AM
^LMAO Grammar Nazi!!!

AniMeFaN
04-12-2011, 08:24 AM
i cant believe you just wasted your time proof reading lol. im not taking a shot at you but it makes more sense that you arent a native english speaker because i am constantly having an arguement with you about a point that i never made that you claim is a fallacy.

Numinous
04-12-2011, 08:25 AM
^LMAO Grammar Nazi!!!

卐 Heil Grammatik! 卐



Now, seriously, he should be ashamed of every single word he typed in that quote when he's a big culprit of butchering the English language.

Edit:
i cant believe you just wasted your time proof reading lol.

Well, since you don't bother the least about proofreading yourself...

im not taking a shot at you

Yes, yes you are.

but it makes more sense that you arent a native english speaker because i am constantly having an arguement with you about a point that i never made that you claim is a fallacy.

Or you don't want to admit your own faulty points and blame me for not being a native English speaker, which is a very shameful thing to do. You're basically advocating xenophobia as your defense.

Vengeance
04-12-2011, 08:26 AM
So no comments about the Naruto chapter reviews I posted? You guys are no fun :(

Numinous
04-12-2011, 08:28 AM
So no comments about the Naruto chapter reviews I posted? You guys are no fun :(

I'll start watching now, how's that? ;)

Edit: the fourth reviewer scared me in less than 10 seconds...

Oh and...

The penis and the ball sack of an armadillo.... the penis and the ball sack of an armadillo!

NeoKakarott023
04-12-2011, 09:50 AM
i dont even have to go past your first sentence, according to my theory any hyuuga can beat itachi, wtf are you on seriously. you dont have a brain.



its not like i just randomly attacked neo, he conisitantly tried to take shots at me. i didnt bring up itachis intentions, i countered someone comment on his intentions, you seriously are an annoying little kid, just stfu and mind your own business you werent even a part of any of the converstations so there is no point to these little comments you are making.




damn you annoying, backpedalling about what. you are an idiot.




no i didnt, did you miss teh part where you quote me saying this" i will not admit they are equals and the translation doesnt make sense" and then go ahead and say i know but wont admit it, your really annoying and just making shit up.

Genesis:
Anime Fan
"this is a random fight but i was rewatching old naruto episodes and i was up to the chuunin exam . neji and kurenai seemed to have a moment after he beat down hinata.

so what do you guys think, neji vs kurenai during the chuunin exams. can neji take down a rookie jounin kurenai? "

"on the actual fight im not sure genjutsu would work on the byakugan and thats kurenais greatest strength. her speed really isnt anything that cant be handled and she doesnt seem to be any more intelligent then neji, infact neji seems to have the advantage there with the use of his byakugan. he also clearly has the advantage in hand to hand combat. i think it would be a good fight. "

My Response,

Are you saying that Neji is special, and immune to genjutsu, or all Hyuugas? I don't know these were your statements. Later I even said 'unless you have proof of that you shouldn't put stuff out like that, yup sounds like I was on a mission to get you.

Since you've joined, you do this, put something out there without fact, sometimes people warn you like, nah dude, leave that alone. But you travel the path of most resistance all of the time until someon starts bashing you then its a pile on. You then begin the 'why' stage of what you do, you Sir are addicted to being a Victim. You set it up, and wonder how you got there, and wait for someone to come to your aid saying thats too far, or thats enough. Therefore, not going to be someone in your play, do this with others who like repeating themselves to brick walls.

Vengeance
04-12-2011, 09:53 AM
I'm bored at work sorry. Here's a review for 534

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRFkvnswKc

*coughfairytalecough*

AniMeFaN
04-12-2011, 09:53 AM
see how i responded to the first sentence of your post and you then go on to ramble on about a bunch of stuff not related to what i responded to.

Wolverine
04-12-2011, 09:55 AM
the fourth reviewer scared me in less than 10 seconds...

5 in my case...

The penis and the ball sack of an armadillo.... the penis and the ball sack of an armadillo!

The first reviewer was highly agitated...
The second reviewer looked depressed...
The third reviewer was kinda cute...
The last one was just whack!

kael03
04-12-2011, 11:47 AM
I like how animefan completely disregarded my post about him blatantly contradicting himself about his hypocritical behavior.

Wolverine
04-12-2011, 11:52 AM
^Kakashi vs Darui... what say you??

kael03
04-12-2011, 11:56 AM
^Kakashi vs Darui... what say you??

Kakashi has the advantage with the sharingan. He can predict what Darui is going to do and counter it in his own way. He might not be able to copy and of the Storm jutsu, but Kakashi has an arsenal of 1000 moves at his disposal.

Wolverine
04-12-2011, 12:19 PM
Kakashi has the advantage with the sharingan. He can predict what Darui is going to do and counter it in his own way. He might not be able to copy and of the Storm jutsu, but Kakashi has an arsenal of 1000 moves at his disposal.

We haven't really seen him use anything apart from his Chidori, Raikiri, Kamui, and maybe a few Suiryudan no jutsus. I really doubt he will use all those techniques. One would think he had ample opportunities from day 1.

What really needs to be seen is how Kakashi's Raikiri fares against Darui's Storm jutsu. However, if Kakashi uses Kamui, he can beat almost anyone in this manga except Madara.

illusiontoreality
04-12-2011, 01:33 PM
^^ I agree, with the exception of the kamui. It seems to be synonymous with amaterasu, being that anyone with a fair amount of speed could probably avoid it. Although judging by what we've seen from darui so far, he probably wouldn't fare very well ;)

kael03
04-12-2011, 01:48 PM
^^ I agree, with the exception of the kamui. It seems to be synonymous with amaterasu, being that anyone with a fair amount of speed could probably avoid it.

Um, he used Kamui on a nail being launched by Pain's Shinra Tensei from like 6 feet away and on Sasuke's Susanoo's arrow, the latter being launched at a rate that he couldn't dodge. Only someone like Madara or Minato, possibly Raikage in Raiton Armor, could dodge Kamui now based on speed.

Vengeance
04-12-2011, 02:16 PM
You forget about Naruto but that's a really good point you made keal.

illusiontoreality
04-12-2011, 02:18 PM
indeed, hence the reason i said "those with a fair amount of speed," intended mainly for those characters you listed, and implying that darui would be toast. lol sorry for not clarifying.

kael03
04-12-2011, 02:21 PM
You forget about Naruto but that's a really good point you made keal.

I figured Naruto was a given since his speed in Bijuu mode was inadvertently compared to Minato's by Bee saying all he saw was a "Yellow Flash". Also, it's kAEl, not kEAl.

Wolverine
04-12-2011, 02:41 PM
^rofl @ keal!!

kael03
04-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Seriously, I pronounce it like "kay-l" not "key-l"

Wolverine
04-12-2011, 02:58 PM
Seriously, I pronounce it like "kay-l" not "key-l"

We know bro. It's just that I found that funny... :p

Numinous
04-12-2011, 03:31 PM
Seriously, I pronounce it like "kay-l" not "key-l"

You could be cool and pronounce it "Kaa Hell", but noooooooooo, you had to anglicize it. :mad::mad::D

kael03
04-12-2011, 03:39 PM
You could be cool and pronounce it "Kaa Hell", but noooooooooo, you had to anglicize it. :mad::mad::D

I'm not from Krypton :mad:. Besides, my way sounds more like a mage's name.

Numinous
04-12-2011, 03:49 PM
I'm not from Krypton :mad:.

Humm.. that's Kal-El. I meant Kaa as in the snake of The Jungle Book.

Besides, my way sounds more like a mage's name.

Yeah, I guess. Or perhaps (going KYF mode)... כָּהאֵל (kahel), meaning "God is here". Ironic, considering you're an atheist.

k-lai
04-12-2011, 04:00 PM
But really on a side note I think madara was bluffing when he said kakashi's kamui could not hurt him...

NeoKakarott023
04-12-2011, 04:34 PM
But really on a side note I think madara was bluffing when he said kakashi's kamui could not hurt him...

I don't, since he arrived on the scene he's been actually hit or hurt so rarely, its more than amazing. And most people count the hit from Minato as major, but that was in a flashback. Theres something going on with regard to his EMS, or the T/S Jutsu which possibly is automatic, a defense mechanism, and/or free from chakra drain. Theres something specific about the sharingan, at levels higher than MS that Madara only knows. I don't believe that Itachi knew how to defeat Madara, and the information isn't anywhere on Uchiha history scrolls, if so, Madara prolly smartly and quickly destroyed it.
If a massive large scale attack like Konans didn't work, for the length of time additionally, no way Kamui's hurting that dude.

Wolverine
04-12-2011, 04:40 PM
I don't, since he arrived on the scene he's been actually hit or hurt so rarely, its more than amazing. And most people count the hit from Minato as major, but that was in a flashback. Theres something going on with regard to his EMS, or the T/S Jutsu which possibly is automatic, a defense mechanism, and/or free from chakra drain. Theres something specific about the sharingan, at levels higher than MS that Madara only knows. I don't believe that Itachi knew how to defeat Madara, and the information isn't anywhere on Uchiha history scrolls, if so, Madara prolly smartly and quickly destroyed it.
If a massive large scale attack like Konans didn't work, for the length of time additionally, no way Kamui's hurting that dude.

That would mean that Sasuke would now have the recipe for those abilities at his fingertips. If that really is the case, then I can see Naruto's new speed coming in handy with regards to catching him off-guard. Man, talk about foresight.

ninjalostboy95
04-12-2011, 07:09 PM
its not like i just randomly attacked neo, he conisitantly tried to take shots at me. i didnt bring up itachis intentions, i countered someone comment on his intentions, you seriously are an annoying little kid, just stfu and mind your own business you werent even a part of any of the converstations so there is no point to these little comments you are making.

You never heard of countering while mocking/flaming someone? If Neo throws a baseless claim at you, you can counter it and flame him back. It's not like you're capable of it anyway. You can't pick out irrelevant info(such as Itachi's intentions) from the relevant info?

no i didnt, did you miss teh part where you quote me saying this"i will not admit they are equals and the translation doesnt make sense" and then go ahead and say i know but wont admit it, your really annoying and just making shit up.

Hook, line and sinker.

superninja
04-12-2011, 10:40 PM
But really on a side note I think madara was bluffing when he said kakashi's kamui could not hurt him...

That's what I also thought, but when Konan was fighting Madara she said he needs to be tangible to transport himself with his eye technique. So it could be if he is intangible kamui won't work on him. Maybe that's what Madara had in mind when he said he won't be hurt by kamui.
However if he is tangible then kamui should work.

As for Kakashi vs Darui, here is some fanfiction:

Darui: "So I am fighting the sharingan Kakashi, I better bring my A game"
Kakashi: "Looks like I have my work cut out with you"
Kakashi charges towards Darui
Darui jumps back and hides
Darui: "Sorry but I have no intention of fighting sharingan from close range, my genjutsu defense is kind of rusty."
Kakashi: "Close range or long range, it makes no difference."
Darui: "Check this out!"
Darui does laser circus attack
Kakashi:"!" "This attack is coming fast, will I be able to block it with...double chidori!!?"
Kakashi extends both of his hands using chidori in each to block the attack, but Darui bends the lasers around Kakashi and avoids chidori completely.
Kakashi: "Too fast!"
Kakashi's clone gets destroyed.
Kakashi emerges from underground: "This guy is something else, I underestimated him and I've spent half my chakra already. At least now I know his special jutsu."
Darui: "You said it'll make no difference yet you seem bruised, do you want to have another go?"
Kakashi: "Do your worst."
Kakashi (thinking): "He is stationary while he is controlling the beams. If he uses that jutsu again, I'll kamui him directly."
Darui: "I don't want to repeat my self!"
Darui does the black lightning.
Kakashi: "! This is no ordinary lightning attack!"
Kakashi does the hand seals and creates water walls around himself.
Darui (thinking): "Nice try, but it's impossible to block the black lightning!"
Kakashi dies.

ninjalostboy95
04-12-2011, 10:47 PM
^Are you really stupid enough to use a scenario?

Vengeance
04-12-2011, 11:15 PM
^Are you really stupid enough to use a scenario?
What's wrong with using scenarios?

stubborn_d0nkey
04-13-2011, 01:25 AM
My scenario:
Tsunade and Kakashi drinking:
Tsunade: So... Have you given it a second thought?
Kakashi: My answer is still no.
Tsunade: What if it was an order?
Kakashi: No, you'd have to try and make me.
Tsunade: Well, I'm glad you said that. (big grin)
Kakashi (feeling kinda funky): You didn't!
Tsunade: I did!
Kakashi: You spiked my drink!
Tsunade: Yes, you kept on refusing
(Tsunade notices Darui and other cloud nin coming)
Tsunade: We got emissaries from the cloud coming, focus.
Kakashi (in thought while turning around): Enemies from the cloud?? Focus?? Does she mean...

Kakashi: Kamui!

Conclusion: bye bye darui!

NeoKakarott023
04-13-2011, 09:11 AM
A couple of thoughts on Kamui, it takes time for Kakashi to 'activate' it, its not instantaneous, therefore preparation time vs. Madara makes the probability of it working slim in the first place, and secondly along the lines of a discussion that was made a while ago, I don't think many of Kakashi's sharingan techs are hax's vs. Uchihas whom seem to have a step up on those that has had sharingan's transplanted. I truly believe an Non-Uchiha, with a sharingan hax can't touch or harm an sharingan EMS user, as I state ALL the info about it ain't out, and Madara seems to be the only person that knows.

The prep time for Kamui could also be a problem vs. Darui, so Kakashi could for example call on his dogs like he did vs. Zabuza to hold him for a minute, but I'd suspect that some kind of lightenening attack would turn that jutsu into dog meat. LOL. But it would be one of the better battles I suspect.

Vengeance
04-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Neji vs Naruto in a contest of tracking.

Basically they're sent after a known enemy shinobi who is rumored to be hiding out in say the Nara forest or some shit. Which one of these two would be able to find the shinobi first?

NeoKakarott023
04-13-2011, 11:06 AM
Neji vs Naruto in a contest of tracking.

Basically they're sent after a known enemy shinobi who is rumored to be hiding out in say the Nara forest or some shit. Which one of these two would be able to find the shinobi first?

Naruto, Sage Mode, cake.

ask me anything
04-13-2011, 11:51 AM
^Beat me to it.

Gakure
04-13-2011, 12:04 PM
Neji vs Naruto in a contest of tracking.

Basically they're sent after a known enemy shinobi who is rumored to be hiding out in say the Nara forest or some shit. Which one of these two would be able to find the shinobi first?

U serious? SM will take some time so Naruto goes RSM and VOILA, the enemy is found B4 Neji even does 'BG'. Neruto finds enemy first.

ask me anything
04-13-2011, 12:07 PM
U serious? SM will take some time so Naruto goes RSM and VOILA, the enemy is found B4 Neji even does 'BG'. Neruto finds enemy first.

Wut? All naruto has to do it sit still and he can go into sage mode in about 3 seconds. I don't care how fast RSM is, Naruto would have to run around the forest for a while looking for the guy. Also mass shadow clones would be another alternative for naruto.

Neji would have the advantage if the guy he's looking for is only a few miles away. Any further then that and the Byakugan has to narrow its search pattern to get a precise view.

Vengeance
04-13-2011, 12:08 PM
U serious? SM will take some time so Naruto goes RSM and VOILA, the enemy is found B4 Neji even does 'BG'. Neruto finds enemy first.
Actually I was serious. What makes you think SSJ has better tracking capability when compared to Sage Mode? Byakugan is also allot easier to active when compared to Sage Mode.

Wolverine
04-13-2011, 05:30 PM
^Naruto can sense emotions in his RSM. That would give him another way to find them. It's not about finding the enemy, it's just about finding others than himself... that is, if Neji and himself are the only ones around. Otherwise, he can activate SM and sense chakras farther than Neji's Byakugan can see targets.

@Neo: You forget that Kakashi activated Kamui almost instantaneously to send Sasuke's Susano'o arrow into another dimension.

NeoKakarott023
04-13-2011, 05:43 PM
^Naruto can sense emotions in his RSM. That would give him another way to find them. It's not about finding the enemy, it's just about finding others than himself... that is, if Neji and himself are the only ones around. Otherwise, he can activate SM and sense chakras farther than Neji's Byakugan can see targets.

@Neo: You forget that Kakashi activated Kamui almost instantaneously to send Sasuke's Susano'o arrow into another dimension.

But that was a target heading straight, he knew the path, if trying to hit shinobi its harder, like when he was using it vs. Deidara in the sky.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-13-2011, 05:55 PM
But that was a target heading straight, he knew the path, if trying to hit shinobi its harder, like when he was using it vs. Deidara in the sky.

LOL, reread that part again, and you'll understand the lol

Wolverine
04-13-2011, 05:57 PM
But that was a target heading straight, he knew the path, if trying to hit shinobi its harder, like when he was using it vs. Deidara in the sky.

It's not about using Kamui while gauging the trajectory, but 'preparing' Kamui for execution, like you said in your post. He doesn't really need time to prepare it anymore since he has had practice with that Jutsu. Besides, I don't see how most people can be faster than the Susano'o arrow so that should not pose a problem for him. Since his execution speed has improved significantly, I am presuming that his application must have as well, which means that he is far more proficient at using it, which would also include usage against moving or ranged targets.

NeoKakarott023
04-13-2011, 06:22 PM
It's not about using Kamui while gauging the trajectory, but 'preparing' Kamui for execution, like you said in your post. He doesn't really need time to prepare it anymore since he has had practice with that Jutsu. Besides, I don't see how most people can be faster than the Susano'o arrow so that should not pose a problem for him. Since his execution speed has improved significantly, I am presuming that his application must have as well, which means that he is far more proficient at using it, which would also include usage against moving or ranged targets.

Possibly you're correct, I was equating the use of Kamui vison of sight to, Amaretsu (like vs. Raichu), you have to actually pin point a spot or target, like Sasuke missed vs. Raikage. Speed of opponent could be a problem I'd think maybe.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-13-2011, 06:26 PM
You obviously didn't go to read that part of the manga.
VS. Deidara he was a noob at kamui, he himself said that something something something something something.

Wolverine
04-13-2011, 06:26 PM
Possibly you're correct, I was equating the use of Kamui vison of sight to, Amaretsu (like vs. Raichu), you have to actually pin point a spot or target, like Sasuke missed vs. Raikage. Speed of opponent could be a problem I'd think maybe.

You are right in your assumption of Kamui needing to pinpoint a target, just like Amaterasu. However, it is instances such as Kakashi sending both Deidera's explosion and Sasuke's Susano'o arrow into another dimension which lead me to believe that he doesn't necessarily have to just concentrate on the individual as a focal point. He could just probably have the entire area around him disappear. His difficulty with targeting Deidera could be accounted to his inexperience with that particular jutsu.

NeoKakarott023
04-13-2011, 09:05 PM
You obviously didn't go to read that part of the manga.
VS. Deidara he was a noob at kamui, he himself said that something something something something something.

Yeah I know he got better gradually over time, and he could use it more so prep time is much smaller, but against an opponent like Darui, I don't forsee a lot of 'clean' openings offensively with Kamui, but possibly defensively, an example to make Black Lightening disappear.

You are right in your assumption of Kamui needing to pinpoint a target, just like Amaterasu. However, it is instances such as Kakashi sending both Deidera's explosion and Sasuke's Susano'o arrow into another dimension which lead me to believe that he doesn't necessarily have to just concentrate on the individual as a focal point. He could just probably have the entire area around him disappear. His difficulty with targeting Deidera could be accounted to his inexperience with that particular jutsu.

I agree he has shown a wider range, but since its ocular its vunerable IMHO, Raichu for exampe can move faster than vision evidenced by Sasuke missing with Amaretsu, if Darui had the same ability, or some ability to increase his speed, it'd be hard to hit him clean, maybe get a limb or something.

Regardless from Darui from what we know he has no answer for Kamui.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-14-2011, 03:52 AM
If you knew that than why would you say this:But that was a target heading straight, he knew the path, if trying to hit shinobi its harder, like when he was using it vs. Deidara in the sky.
?????????

NeoKakarott023
04-14-2011, 11:03 AM
If you knew that than why would you say this:
?????????

Because my point was that Kamui has been 'dodgable', if that makes sense. I'm sure Kakashi was attempting to aim at the 'core' of Deidara's body, but he kept moving and evading was my point. So while targeting the nail that Pein sent to him, or Sasuke's Arrow, the target was easier to acquire and it was inbound. Though his sharingan is supposed to allow him to see his opponents future movements, I believe (may be wrong) when Kakashi is using Kamui, his powers are focused on that, and not the opponents movements as if a regular sharingan hax could see through. Does that make more sense, I hope so?

Wolverine
04-14-2011, 11:40 AM
Because my point was that Kamui has been 'dodgable', if that makes sense. I'm sure Kakashi was attempting to aim at the 'core' of Deidara's body, but he kept moving and evading was my point. So while targeting the nail that Pein sent to him, or Sasuke's Arrow, the target was easier to acquire and it was inbound. Though his sharingan is supposed to allow him to see his opponents future movements, I believe (may be wrong) when Kakashi is using Kamui, his powers are focused on that, and not the opponents movements as if a regular sharingan hax could see through. Does that make more sense, I hope so?

You forgot the instance where Kakashi saved Chouji by using the last bit of his chakra to use Kamui against the attack which Preta path used on Chouji. That wasn't inbound and was moving at a pretty fast pace.

NeoKakarott023
04-14-2011, 03:04 PM
You forgot the instance where Kakashi saved Chouji by using the last bit of his chakra to use Kamui against the attack which Preta path used on Chouji. That wasn't inbound and was moving at a pretty fast pace.

Yeah but Preta didn't know Kakashi was attempting to save Chouji at the time, or Preta was concentrating his control on the inbound missle to get Chouji, or even possibly he ignored it. But the missle itself wasn't dodging, Kamui, (i don't think) Kakashi at that point only needed to watch Chouji (his area) as the missle was inbound and adjust. But possibly his sharingan was assisting him with the tracking, who actually knows, Kishi only gives partial information on his jutsus, and characters.

Wolverine
04-14-2011, 03:24 PM
Yeah but Preta didn't know Kakashi was attempting to save Chouji at the time, or Preta was concentrating his control on the inbound missle to get Chouji, or even possibly he ignored it. But the missle itself wasn't dodging, Kamui, (i don't think) Kakashi at that point only needed to watch Chouji (his area) as the missle was inbound and adjust. But possibly his sharingan was assisting him with the tracking, who actually knows, Kishi only gives partial information on his jutsus, and characters.

I don't see how you can dodge Kamui. The target can just continually be in motion to make it difficult for the caster to focus. So while Preta path may not have launched the missile at Kakashi itself, the trajectory of the missile would have been more difficult to gauge as opposed to an inward homing attack. Besides, the speed of execution of the jutus was so fast that people didn't fathom it initially until it sunk in. Lets face it, all the instances where Kakashi used Kamui (barring the first time), people only realized it after he actually used the jutsu...

NeoKakarott023
04-14-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't see how you can dodge Kamui. The target can just continually be in motion to make it difficult for the caster to focus. So while Preta path may not have launched the missile at Kakashi itself, the trajectory of the missile would have been more difficult to gauge as opposed to an inward homing attack. Besides, the speed of execution of the jutus was so fast that people didn't fathom it initially until it sunk in. Lets face it, all the instances where Kakashi used Kamui (barring the first time), people only realized it after he actually used the jutsu...

True, but I can make it easier to understand what my intentions were...

Deidara dodged, and eluded the 'pin point' version of Kamui, though it was early and I understand he's grown much more with the jutsu, but if he were to attempt it at Raichu, the outcome would be exactly like Sasuke's Amaretsu attack, IMHO. I'm not saying everyone can move like the Raikage either, but in that instance Kamui can't hit what it can't see. Sasuke with his sharingan couldn't follow Raichu anymore when he went to his flash step or whatever. It would be better executed at close range for someone of Raichu's speed, and deliver just as he's attack, a deadly counter.

All of this really don't come to bear in the Darui vs. Kakashi because he hasn't shown such speed, so the prep time, and minor limitation isn't even factors in this battle. Personally, Kamui aside, Kakashi's just got too much experience.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-14-2011, 03:48 PM
Yeah but Preta didn't know Kakashi was attempting to save Chouji at the time, or Preta was concentrating his control on the inbound missle to get Chouji, or even possibly he ignored it. But the missle itself wasn't dodging, Kamui, (i don't think) Kakashi at that point only needed to watch Chouji (his area) as the missle was inbound and adjust. But possibly his sharingan was assisting him with the tracking, who actually knows, Kishi only gives partial information on his jutsus, and characters.

Lol dude, didn't we agree he was a noob at that time? That is why Kakashi didn't nail him. It wasn't due to a virtue of Deidara, but to Kakashi's noobness in targeting. He improved since then, so that example shouldn't be used. It's like saying, you had no clue in your first 5 games of chess X years ago, so there is no way you could beat anybody. Which is ridiculous.

superninja
04-14-2011, 04:31 PM
I think Kakashi needs to be certain about the position of his target, kamui transports instantly now since he used it to warp the arrow he wouldn't otherwise dodge by normal movement. But he still needs to be sure that what he aimed is the real deal. He only has two or three shots at most with kamui so he needs to be sure, someone like Darui will most likely move unpredictably at times maybe make sudden jumps or something, maybe use a clone (who knows). The important thing for kakashi is that when he fires kamui he has it locked on, the nail was coming towards him and he knew where it will be in advance because of sharingan (the same with the arrow) and with missile that was heading towards chouji you have the similar thing because it moves towards chouji so he knows where it's going. Once Kakashi has it aimed, he can fire it very fast and warp something very fast. So the aiming part is the only limiting factor for him now.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-14-2011, 06:21 PM
I'd say that the nail may be harder than a person moving (clones-another issue). The nail contained no chakra, wasn't surrounded by chakra (like KB's pencil), however a persons movement can be predicted using a sharingan as Sasuke noted, also there is the experienced fighter thing too.

superninja
04-14-2011, 06:35 PM
I'd say that the nail may be harder than a person moving (clones-another issue). The nail contained no chakra, wasn't surrounded by chakra (like KB's pencil), however a persons movement can be predicted using a sharingan as Sasuke noted, also there is the experienced fighter thing too.

Yeah, come to think of it, he should be able to catch a person with it even if the person is not still. He just needs to read the movement well enough and have a clear sight. Also, he mustn't be distracted with attacks from the person he is trying to kamui.

But still, he never does that, probably because he is scared of hitting a clone or a substitution or something. Against Darui, he would have to either use kamui if the fight is long range because Darui has better long range attacks otherwise or if he manages to get close use sharingan genjutsu (less chakra spent) and chidori him. He is capable of doing both, use a clone and travel underground at the same time to get close to Darui and he can use kamui fast.
But, there is a risk in all of these options, if he misses with kamui once he will be slowed and a bit chakra drained while Darui has powerful long range attacks with lasers and black lightning and from close range he needs to get right into Darui's face. Darui is said to be a kage candidate so he is also powerful.

Konnaha_yellow_flash
04-14-2011, 07:57 PM
Dariu vs kakashi?

All dariu has is long distance ninjutsu such as his black lightning attacks and lazer circus, suiton and raiton.. He showed no above average physical abilities such as speed, strength or endurance.... His taijutsu wasnt anything special and no genjutsu.... IMO, kakashi just uses KBs to test darius abilities while conserving chakra for the attack once he formulates a strategy from that info via the KBs...

I could really see the counter combo kakashi used the fake itachi where planted a clone in his place as the incoming mid range ninjutsu attack came, came from under ground then burst from beneath to almost hit itachi.... (just rememmbered he used a similar one on deva realm too, but the demon realm saved devas ass...) Its just kakashi style.... it efficient for his disadvantage of low stamina as well as effective.... and without intervention from an ally or the SG which can read fast movements... I believe dariu would fall too the combo....

AOTKorby
04-14-2011, 08:15 PM
Darui was at least Suigetsu's equal in swordplay, and Suigetsu's been training with the sword his entire life. Clearly Darui is no slouch in cqc.

Kakashi and Darui both have a lot of variation in their techniques. Kakashi has 3 elements he can use with Raiton being exceedingly powerful and Suiton being moderately powerful. Darui is fairly smart, not at Kakashi's level when Kishi remembers that Kakashi is a damn genius, but about even with him on an average day.

Kamui is a fairly game-breaking tech, but it, like every MS tech that isn't Susano'o, relies heavily on Kakashi having good visibility. Meanwhile, Darui has a KKG, hijutsu lightning techs, and expert sword-wielding to rely on. Neither one has a monumental edge, so determining a winner is fairly difficult, imo.

superninja
04-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Dariu vs kakashi?

All dariu has is long distance ninjutsu such as his black lightning attacks and lazer circus, suiton and raiton.. He showed no above average physical abilities such as speed, strength or endurance.... His taijutsu wasnt anything special and no genjutsu.... IMO, kakashi just uses KBs to test darius abilities while conserving chakra for the attack once he formulates a strategy from that info via the KBs...

I could really see the counter combo kakashi used the fake itachi where planted a clone in his place as the incoming mid range ninjutsu attack came, came from under ground then burst from beneath to almost hit itachi.... (just rememmbered he used a similar one on deva realm too, but the demon realm saved devas ass...) Its just kakashi style.... it efficient for his disadvantage of low stamina as well as effective.... and without intervention from an ally or the SG which can read fast movements... I believe dariu would fall too the combo....

Yeah if Kakashi closes in on him, Darui is toast like zombie Zabuza. Chidori will cut through his sword even if it's lightning enhanced (maybe not but it might since it "cuts through lightning"), plus sharingan will read his movements and maybe cast a quick genjutsu on him.
From long range Darui is more dangerous since he has those 2 unique jutsus that are probably hard to avoid or block.
Darui could have more chakra, though that might not be the case. We don't know how many times he can use black lightning anyway. We also don't know why black lightning is special, but we can assume it is stronger than normal lightning (it has to have some advantage) so it won't be stopped with chidori (maybe with kamui).

NeoKakarott023
04-14-2011, 08:22 PM
Lol dude, didn't we agree he was a noob at that time? That is why Kakashi didn't nail him. It wasn't due to a virtue of Deidara, but to Kakashi's noobness in targeting. He improved since then, so that example shouldn't be used. It's like saying, you had no clue in your first 5 games of chess X years ago, so there is no way you could beat anybody. Which is ridiculous.

True he may have been less skilled back then, I'm not saying he wasn't, but the last official time he used Kamui was Sasuke's arrow, my whole theme was about if someone could move the speed of Raichu, Kamui could only be used defensively as a counter. Raichu can move faster than even Uchihas sight vision, so I'd think he could evade Kamui easier from distance than Amaretsu which has a wider attack range generally. I said generally because though Kakashi can increase the area of the Kamui attack and make it wide as all outside, but from the time Sasuke released Amaretsu toward Raichu, after disappering (moving so fast), he reappeared behind Sasuke, thats behind his opponents line of sight, the user of Kamui would die right there.

superninja
04-14-2011, 08:25 PM
Darui was at least Suigetsu's equal in swordplay, and Suigetsu's been training with the sword his entire life. Clearly Darui is no slouch in cqc.

Kakashi and Darui both have a lot of variation in their techniques. Kakashi has 3 elements he can use with Raiton being exceedingly powerful and Suiton being moderately powerful. Darui is fairly smart, not at Kakashi's level when Kishi remembers that Kakashi is a damn genius, but about even with him on an average day.

Kamui is a fairly game-breaking tech, but it, like every MS tech that isn't Susano'o, relies heavily on Kakashi having good visibility. Meanwhile, Darui has a KKG, hijutsu lightning techs, and expert sword-wielding to rely on. Neither one has a monumental edge, so determining a winner is fairly difficult, imo.

I agree with everything but I would give Kakashi advantage in close combat just because of sharingan that reads movements and casts genjutsu and chidori which is a more concentrated lightning attack than lightning sword imo. But Darui can always nullify this by creating a water wall between himself and Kakashi so he can increase the distance between the two (that is if Darui decides to fight with ninjutsu and not taijutsu)

Konnaha_yellow_flash
04-14-2011, 08:34 PM
While Im more then sure kakashi could track dariu with his average speed and hit him with kamiu.... Game over, but that would just be too easy... kakashi in fact because of kamui is one of the strongest rather some fail to recognize it or not. The problem is kishi doesnt let him use it because its too haxxed.. its instawin... and now that he has shown the precision to capture a missle flaying at shushin speed while at the brink of death, clearly kakashi in full health can nail almost any opponent except the fastest of the fast.

Besides, even if kakashi couldnt track them on the defense moving around, he clearly showed the ability to counter with amazing reflexes when he reacted, activated and sucked up two super sasanoo arrows. Each at least the size of three average sized men on each others shoulders. So, he has shown not only the ability to react and kamui an incoming target moving super fast, but has shown he can in an instant T/S barrier a whole squad at once, but with some time needed to recover his stamina though....

Still, point being kakashi with the kamui is seriously one of the strongest due to its hax and now kakashis mastery of it...

NeoKakarott023
04-14-2011, 08:35 PM
I agree with everything but I would give Kakashi advantage in close combat just because of sharingan that reads movements and casts genjutsu and chidori which is a more concentrated lightning attack than lightning sword imo. But Darui can always nullify this by creating a water wall between himself and Kakashi so he can increase the distance between the two (that is if Darui decides to fight with ninjutsu and not taijutsu)

You said something twice that I found curious, I know Kakashi's sharingan can read through some genjutsu, and I'd guess he could possibly copy and counter, but initially cast a genjutsu, never seen him do it, and I don't know that he has that ability to even counter genjutsu the stature of Itachi, or Kurenai. I checked a couple of sites, and couldn't find any he's done before yet, or were you speaking on the 'unknown' possiblities of his Sharingan/MS?

superninja
04-14-2011, 08:49 PM
True he may have been less skilled back then, I'm not saying he wasn't, but the last official time he used Kamui was Sasuke's arrow, my whole theme was about if someone could move the speed of Raichu, Kamui could only be used defensively as a counter. Raichu can move faster than even Uchihas sight vision, so I'd think he could evade Kamui easier from distance than Amaretsu which has a wider attack range generally. I said generally because though Kakashi can increase the area of the Kamui attack and make it wide as all outside, but from the time Sasuke released Amaretsu toward Raichu, after disappering (moving so fast), he reappeared behind Sasuke, thats behind his opponents line of sight, the user of Kamui would die right there.

If raikage is fast enough to dodge amateratsu he is fast enough to dodge kamui (avoid Kakashi's aim). So my guess is Kakashi would try slowing raikage down or immobilizing him first before attempting the kamui. But there is always a chance he would hit with it even if he used it unprepared, with raikage that chance would be very small though because the target would be moving very fast and unpredictably.

You said something twice that I found curious, I know Kakashi's sharingan can read through some genjutsu, and I'd guess he could possibly copy and counter, but initially cast a genjutsu, never seen him do it, and I don't know that he has that ability to even counter genjutsu the stature of Itachi, or Kurenai. I checked a couple of sites, and couldn't find any he's done before yet, or were you speaking on the 'unknown' possiblities of his Sharingan/MS?

Well Kakashi is not known for his genjutsu, but he did use sharingan genjutsu on one anbu guard to knock him down when Naruto wanted to leave the village and go to the kage summit.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v49/c456/8.html
Also, Zabuza claimed that he was in some kind of hypnosis when he first fought Kakashi and that Kakashi was actually mind controlling him in that fight and not copying him (and all that before Shisui lol). Zabuza might have been wrong because Kakashi is known as the copy ninja, that is his thing. But it could have been some genjutsu on Zabuza there.
In any case Kakashi can cast sharingan genjutsu because he K.O one anbu guard with it and he can do it fast enough since that requires no seals or anything. He doesn't need to K.O Darui with it but if it just stuns Darui for a moment it would give a big advantage in a close combat.

Dagoro
04-26-2011, 01:02 PM
Sakura vs Pikachu

Sakura vs Toph Bei Fong ( No sleep bombs for Sakura )

Who comes out victorious in these battles ? XD

Wolverine
04-26-2011, 04:57 PM
Sakura vs Pikachu

Sakura vs Toph Bei Fong ( No sleep bombs for Sakura )

Who comes out victorious in these battles ? XD

Aren't you degrading Pikachu and Toph Bei Fong by putting them against Sakura??

kael03
04-26-2011, 05:28 PM
Sakura vs Magikarp

Dagoro
04-26-2011, 05:35 PM
I was being serious with these match ups, I was ready to defend Pikachu and Toph.

kael03
04-26-2011, 05:37 PM
I was being serious with these match ups, I was ready to defend Pikachu and Toph.

I'm being serious with my match up

ask me anything
04-26-2011, 05:41 PM
LOL@above fights. That shit is wayyyyy to one sided (in the pokemons favor:D). How about something more fair.

Sakura vs. metapod.

Metapod use harden...Sakura use fail-no-jutsu. [sakura trips, hits her head on a rock, and falls unconscious.]

Announcer: Metapod wins again. The crowd is err...unimpressed in the least. Truly a sad day in pokemon history.

Dagoro
04-26-2011, 05:41 PM
I'm being serious with my match up

Sakura sucks but can definitely beat a magikarp, make it a Gyarados and we'll talk. Now comment on mine !!! =P.

stubborn_d0nkey
04-26-2011, 06:27 PM
Sakura vs Magikarp
So, magikarp is kinda fast, faster then sakura so magikarp will move first and use splash. It wont do anything to sakura, however she will think its cute. Sakura has a history of being emotional in battle and sometimes finding herself unable to harm her foes, so she definitely wont attack a cute, harmless magikarp. Now, this splashing/not attacking will go on until magikarp uses up all its PP, after that it will start struggling.

Even though struggle will do damage to sakura, it wont do much so she will dismiss it and feel sorry for magikarp that it is struggling and hurting itself. So she will start healing him out of pity. So magikarp struggles, sakura heals magikarp, magikarp struggles, sakura heals magikarp, and so on.

Sakura will only figured out that she's doomed due to the continuous but small damage from struggle couple with the constant chakra usage (healing magikarp) when it's already too late (if ever!). Therefore magikarp wins by a landslide!

TL;DR Magikarp wins with almost full HP

AOTKorby
04-26-2011, 07:35 PM
Sakura sucks but can definitely beat a magikarp, make it a Gyarados and we'll talk. Now comment on mine !!! =P.

Magikarp has swept entire teams. On recorded video. Your argument is invalid.

Dagoro
04-26-2011, 07:52 PM
Magikarp has swept entire teams. On recorded video. Your argument is invalid.

Invalid how ?

I could be basing my reasoning on anime Magikarp, not game Magikarp. Jump the gun much ?

AOTKorby
04-26-2011, 07:56 PM
Invalid how ?

I could be basing my reasoning on anime Magikarp, not game Magikarp. Jump the gun much ?

Yep. Game Magikarp is capable of sweeping teams with a proper gimmick setup. And besides, Anime Magikarp appears to evolve whenever it damn well feels like it, lol.

Dagoro
04-26-2011, 08:03 PM
I've seem the magikarp sweep.

But in this case the anime is better for contrast with Naruto characters. Sakura can beat a Magikarp, but should that Magikarp somehow evolve into Gyarados it's game over. Gyarados can long range Sakura with a number of moves ( Dragon breath, flamethrower, hyperbeam ) or just finish it with bite.

Since Sakura has no means of attacking other than her half assed taijutsu and chakra enhanced punching even lower spectrum pokes can tear her a new one.

Pikachu would pwn in seconds. It uses agility to get the drop on Sakura than finishes it off with an iron tail to the head.

I won't even go into the many ways Toph can toss around Sakura.

Miburo
04-26-2011, 08:53 PM
...And you guys are talking about naruto and pokemon animu.

That's like taking two shits and mixing them into one container.

Forum equivalent of two girls; one cup.

Well played, ladies.

gringie
05-12-2011, 12:58 AM
two girls and a cup....




Edit - mizukage vs black zetsu

-SassyLady-
05-12-2011, 01:39 PM
WTF? *rollseyes*

Black Zetsu.

superninja
05-15-2011, 10:30 PM
Well black zetsu should be hard to kill because he can travel extremely fast around the land so any dangerous situation he should be able to avoid just traveling through the ground and I think he can make clones (I know white zetsu can). So with that in mind I give him advantage, however no one should be unbeatable, his power probably comes from the ground since he is plant like and I think he travels and makes clones by using some kind of root through the ground so if that's the case mizukage could beat him if she figures him out.

hillhawk
05-17-2011, 09:37 PM
Let's try a different fight because the thread seems slow. How about Gaara vs. A?

superninja
05-21-2011, 11:18 AM
Let's try a different fight because the thread seems slow. How about Gaara vs. A?

If Gara is restricted to the ground fighting or if they start from a small distance then I could see raikage win by smashing through the sand and tanking the sand, but since Gara can fly and if they start from long range I don't see a way for rai to win because he didn't show any long range attacks and he can't fly to reach Gara. Also Gara blocked raikage's leg punch with his sand before so that also goes in Gara's favor, though raikage would be too fast for Gara to keep up from small range so even if Gara can block all of rais punches with his sand rai could still go around the sand defense like Lee. But that is only if they are fighting on the ground, since Gara can also fly and change the environment of the arena to slow raikage I give the victory to Gara based on what we know.

k-lai
05-23-2011, 03:06 PM
Lets not also forget that Rai uses raiton which is strong against doton by gaara so another plus for Rai.

superninja
05-23-2011, 09:11 PM
Lets not also forget that Rai uses raiton which is strong against doton by gaara so another plus for Rai.

Yes but even if raikage is capable of destroying Gara's sand, Gara can fly high above him so raikage can't reach. If I were Gara I would fly in a sand sphere that offers protection from all sides high above raikage and then turn all the terrain into sand so raikage doesn't move so fast because his feet would sink into the sand. After that try to bury him with sand. Since raikage probably doesn't have any range attacks and can't fly, only jump but I don't think he will be able to reach Gara that way, then his only way to win is to tank Gara's attacks and see if he can outlast him in chakra. Because Gara will be spending a lot of chakra in that fight and raikage might be strong enough to resist for a long time. Gara can always retreat if he gets too tired though so it's a draw or if he pushes himself too far and loses all chakra then raikage would win. He would only exhaust all chakra if he was defending the village or something similar though.
So my verdict is Gara will be attacking mostly since rai can't reach and rai will be defending and it will end either way, but Gara has slight advantage.

AOTKorby
05-23-2011, 09:18 PM
holy fuck this again?

Gaara does not use Doton as far as any canon materials have suggested.

superninja
05-23-2011, 09:22 PM
holy fuck this again?

Gaara does not use Doton as far as any canon materials have suggested.

Then what does he use? And what does AOT mean?

AOTKorby
05-23-2011, 10:39 PM
Then what does he use? And what does AOT mean?

Gaara is only listed in data materials as using Fuuton, and Sand Techniques are not even guaranteed to be fuuton. Given that they're explicitly stated to be the power of the Ichibi, odds are that it may not be elemental at all. But it sure as shit isn't Doton. How many times has this been argued that you've managed to miss, honestly?

EDIT: oh and explaining both parts of my name would take pages of writing about private forum internet history that quite frankly no one gives a shit about and I don't feel like typing.

stubborn_d0nkey
05-24-2011, 01:01 AM
EDIT: oh and explaining both parts of my name would take pages of writing about private forum internet history that quite frankly no one gives a shit about and I don't feel like typing.

some day....

superninja
06-01-2011, 10:37 AM
Ok so I have been thinking on how strong Killerbee with samehada is now and so I would like to know your opinion on Killerbee with samehada vs 6 paths of pein?
I think samehada works like this - it feeds on the chakra of it's owner every day and that is why the owner of the sword needs to have a large chakra supply himself, but when in fight the samehada will give chakra to it's owner to help him fight because there is like a symbiotic relationship between them. So Killerbee should be pretty strong now.

k-lai
06-02-2011, 07:40 AM
^you think?

superninja
06-02-2011, 08:28 AM
^you think?

I know lol.

But anyway Killerbee vs Pein is a bad match because Pein doesn't use a lot of ninjutsu, he uses some weird techniques so I don't know if samehada could absorb any of them. But it could disrupt the chakra signals and paralyze pein bodies temporarily if Killerbee hits them with samehada. I think the only problem would be the huge summons. I'd say it's 50 - 50 fight.

hillhawk
06-02-2011, 10:41 AM
The summons won't be that bad. He could just transform into the Hachibi, and he wouldnt have too much of a problem with them. The only problem is gonna be dealing with the other pains at the same time.

Vishnu
06-04-2011, 06:51 AM
An interesting one would be Sarutobi vs pain...how would that go?

superninja
06-04-2011, 08:15 AM
An interesting one would be Sarutobi vs pain...how would that go?

If we put Sarutobi in same scenario as Jiraiya where he first fights summoner pein and then 3 peins and then the rest of them, I think Sarutobi could kill a few. If it's all 6 at the same time, it could be too much for him but he would still give a good fight.
In Jiraiya scenario, summoner pein would start with his big summons and Sarutobi would summon his monkey king. Then Sarutobi could use a couple of clones to confuse the summoner and go after him directly since he can't fight the giant summons himself. The monkey king and Sarutobi are pretty agile so maybe the big summons won't hit them and so Sarutobi wins against summoner after he closes in on him.
Later he fights the rest of them. Since he can make clones and use monkey king as a strong taijutsu fighter maybe he can nullify Pein's number advantage. Also monkey king staff can stretch and he can use it as a defense against Shinra tensei. When deva pein tries to pull Sarutobi in, Sarutobi can use the staff as his anchor or to attack other Peins with it, maybe Yahiko pein since he is standing still while doing the shinra tensei.

ask me anything
06-04-2011, 03:45 PM
An interesting one would be Sarutobi vs pain...how would that go?

It depends. If it were an old Sarutobi like when he died fighting Oro, then he'd get killed pretty fast. He may or may not do as well as Jiraiya. Kinda hard to say on that. He may do as well skill wise, but he just lacks the stamina to keep fighting for long. I'd give him a 50/50 chance of beating the same 3 paths J-man fought, but all 6 would be way to much.

If we're talking Hiruzen in his prime age, then that's a better matchup. Orochimaru actually admitted that Hiruzen was better then him. His actual words were something like "If you had fought me 10 years ago, I wouldn't be here right now". Lol, I'm paraphrasing of course. I've forgotten the actual quote and don't feel like looking it up. The point is a 68 year old Hiruzen is about as good as a 50 year old Orochimaru in a 20-something year old body. Therefore if he were 10 years younger, a 58 year old Hiruzen should be much much better then him. Given that Oro is generally considered the strongest Sannin, if Hiruzen>Oro, and Oro>J-man, you can assume Hiruzen would do a bit better the J-man in that fight, and 58 isn't exactly a "prime" age either. In his 40's or early 50's, he'd be much better. He still won't be able to beat all 6 paths, but I'd give him a 90% chance of beating 3 paths.

Vishnu
06-04-2011, 03:50 PM
In his prime age he could take out more than 3 paths if he had prior knowledge about Pain's skills like Naruto did...i admit that the Deva path could put him in trouble but if he has enough stamina ,as the man who knows all the jutsus from Konoha he could take out Pain with some effort.Anyway he would put up a much better fight than Tsunade

stubborn_d0nkey
06-04-2011, 03:53 PM
Butterfly ability choji with p1 choji attitude vs p2 war pre-butterfly ability choji with post-butterfly attitude

Sensei-Q
06-04-2011, 03:57 PM
At the age of 40-50 he'd be on a killingspree until he'd find out the secret and then he'd take out the Hell God Pain.

ask me anything
06-04-2011, 04:23 PM
In his prime age he could take out more than 3 paths if he had prior knowledge about Pain's skills like Naruto did...i admit that the Deva path could put him in trouble but if he has enough stamina ,as the man who knows all the jutsus from Konoha he could take out Pain with some effort.Anyway he would put up a much better fight than Tsunade

Oh, if were talking about him with prior knowledege that's different. I was under the impression you meant the same scenario that J-man was placed in, where he had to gather the info as he fought.

So yeah, prime age Hiruzen with the info on Pain would definitely curb stomp the first 3 paths. All 6 would be something different. I still don't know that he could do it. Deva path would be the real trouble.

Although I wonder if Enma might not be the perfect counter for Deva path. I mean the guy is as hard as diamonds in his staff form and he did create a cage around Hiruzen that was strong enough to block Hashirama's giant fucking forest attack. If that doesn't say BAD ASS, then I don't know what does.

Emna: (Puts Deva in his cage) Gotta catch them all!!! Gotta catch them all!!! Wow, I just caught a legendary pokemon!!!

Deva: LOL, you think you got me? I'll show you whose BOSS!! (uses Shinra Tensei.)

[has no effect]

Eman: Take this bitch!!! (Bitch slaps him). Gotta keep my pimp hand. strong.

[super effective] [Deva passes out]

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm135/7xB/Ash-Ketchum-pokemon-18073487-411-359.jpg

superninja
06-04-2011, 05:10 PM
Butterfly ability choji with p1 choji attitude vs p2 war pre-butterfly ability choji with post-butterfly attitude

How could Chouji go butterfly mode and still not believe in himself lol. Anyway I think confident Chouji would win because the butterfly ability Chouji wouldn't use his butterfly mode out of fear.

hillhawk
06-04-2011, 09:41 PM
I think he might be able to pull it off. Sarutobi is smart, and he has plenty of battle experience under his belt. He is said to know an enormous quantity of jutsu. He is bound to have something that could take out deva path. The monkey king would make a good distraction, and Sarutobi would easily be able to hit him in the 5 second interval. He would easily be able to take out one or two paths. But all six paths at once is the big trouble here. I'd honestly say it could go either way.

Thor
06-08-2011, 11:59 AM
Sarutobi & Jiraya Vs Raikage & Bee

NeoKakarott023
06-08-2011, 12:06 PM
Sarutobi & Jiraya Vs Raikage & Bee

Somehow after this weeks chapter, I smelled a tag team bout brewing here. Lol.

superninja
06-09-2011, 03:22 PM
Sarutobi & Jiraya Vs Raikage & Bee

Well raikage and bee are defo faster and stronger in hand to hand combat, but Sarutobi and Jiraiya are better at ninjutsu and have more moves/skills/spells.

Bee also has the most powerful area attack if he turns into full hachibi.

It will start with either raikage rushing in or with raikage and Killerbee attempting double lariat on Sarutobi or Jiraiya.
The problem for Sarutobi and Jiraiya is they are slower and if raikage and Killerbee do the first move then Sarutobi and Jiraiya are on constant defense.

Sarutobi can probably use substitution very fast, but that doesn't teleport him far enough to escape raikage and bee completely, Jiraiya has that spiky hair defense but that probably won't help him much.
I guess it's 50 - 50 if raikage and killerbee do the first move, if Jiraiya and Sarutobi are allowed preparation time then they would win.

k-lai
06-19-2011, 12:25 PM
Sarutobi alone in the mix made it harder for A and B cos he stood his ground at old age against the best duo(1st and 2nd hokages). Jiraiya stood his grounds against pein and when he enters sage mode lariat would probably not work on him bcos of his durability so i say saru and jman win this one marginally

Wolverine
06-19-2011, 12:38 PM
Jiraiya is the best when it comes to seals after Minato. He should have enough Bijuu chakra suppression tags which would cancel the possibility of B entering the cloak mode. If he enters Sennin Modo, and uses the frog song, then both Raikage and B will be trapped in no time. Adding Sarutobi to the mix adds to his chances, since he was able to hold off 2 Hokages in his old age. And if you're talking about the Professor in his prime, then its even harder for the Cloud brothers.

I'd give this to Jiraiya and Sarutobi, 7-3.

King Leonin
06-19-2011, 04:00 PM
I agree Leaf wins that one.


Lee and Guy vs A & Bee?

Dagoro
06-19-2011, 04:16 PM
A and Bee have better speed and destruction feats. Unless someone can provide scans, which prove that either Jiraya or the 3rd have reaction timing similar to that of Minato's, A can pretty much down one of them right of the bat.

With Bee there the fight is even more one sided. The man has full control of his Bijuu, and his Bijuu ball far exceeds anything Jiraya and the 3rd have shown. No amount of summons or w/e other shit is going to stand up to that.

Lee and Guy vs A & Bee?

Come on people, these match ups are terrible.

Vishnu
06-19-2011, 04:49 PM
Then let me make a decent one...

Minato vs Itachi

Both are quite unique....minato has the FTG tech and itachi all the MS techs...so it could be quite a battle...if itachi can't hit minato because of his t/s jutsu he can always defend himself with Susano'o

King Leonin
06-19-2011, 05:01 PM
Minato would win.

He s well educated about Uchiha and Sharinghan. Even though he wouldn't be familiar with Itachi's abilities far as the MS goes. I see Minato FTGing before Itachi has the chance to doing anything.

If not then I see the susan'oo being a tech that ties the fight.

Minato too fast for Ameratsu, and the Genjutsu may or may not work, Minato was a genius and intellect DOES vary the impact of the Jutsu. I don't see Minato standing still long enough to get caught in a genjutsu anyway.

Also Itachi isn't a taijutsu type, so once Minato gets in close it would be over.

Minato 6-4

ninjalostboy95
06-19-2011, 05:33 PM
Intellect varies how effective the CASTING of the jutsu is, not the resistance. In defensive terms, intelligence only helps with how quick you recognize that you're in a genjutsu. So yeah, genjutsu effects Minato and he definitely isn't avoiding Tsukuyomi if he engages in taijutsu with Itachi. Also, so what if he isn't a taijutsu type? That's what the sharingan is for. I say close battle 6-4 either one.

I got a battle: Naruto(SM) and Sasuke(MS) vs Danzou and Darui.

Random encounter
50m distance
State of mind: cool
Restrictions: Naruto can't use RSM or go above 6 tails. None of them have info on the other team's abilities.

GO! GO! GO!

kael03
06-19-2011, 05:38 PM
Intellect varies how effective the CASTING of the jutsu is, not the resistance. In defensive terms, intelligence only helps with how quick you recognize that you're in a genjutsu. So yeah, genjutsu effects Minato and he definitely isn't avoiding Tsukuyomi if he engages in taijutsu with Itachi. Also, so what if he isn't a taijutsu type? That's what the sharingan is for. I say close battle 6-4 either one.

Itachi has to look into his target's eyes to use Tsukuyomi. If Minato uses FTG to get behind him before Itachi has a chance to trap him in Tsukuyomi, it's game over for Itachi.

ninjalostboy95
06-19-2011, 06:15 PM
Itachi has to look into his target's eyes to use Tsukuyomi. If Minato uses FTG to get behind him before Itachi has a chance to trap him in Tsukuyomi, it's game over for Itachi.

I know. -_- I'm saying how will he use FTG to get behind him if he did not place a seal yet? Even if he did manage to get behind Itachi, do you really think it's game over? KB reacted even though Minato was behind him by just keeping his sword pointed toward Minato as he reappeared, Itachi could probably do the same with kunai. Itachi isn't a pushover, you know.

EDIT: The reason I said "If they engage in taijutsu" is because Minato doesn't have a fighting style that doesn't involve eye contact(Like how Gai looks at the sharingan user's feet) that we know of and just a slight moment of eye contact can put Minato in a genjutsu.

kael03
06-19-2011, 06:26 PM
I know. -_- I'm saying how will he use FTG to get behind him if he did not place a seal yet? Even if he did manage to get behind Itachi, do you really think it's game over? KB reacted even though Minato was behind him by just keeping his sword pointed toward Minato as he reappeared, Itachi could probably do the same with kunai. Itachi isn't a pushover, you know.

Never said he was. Also, a kunai is much shorter than the short sword Bee had aimed at Minato's stomach. There's also the fact that Minato can throw dozens of his special kunai at once, giving Itachi a hard time to track them all down, and allowing Minato to jump around to keep Itachi off guard. Not to mention Minato can teleport to a kunai that's still in flight.

EDIT: The reason I said "If they engage in taijutsu" is because Minato doesn't have a fighting style that doesn't involve eye contact(Like how Gai looks at the sharingan user's feet) that we know of and just a slight moment of eye contact can put Minato in a genjutsu.

Minato's fighting style appears to revolve around using FTG to get behind his targets. Last I checked the Sharingan doesn't see through the back of the user's head. Also, Itachi has to have his Mangekyo active to use Tsukuyomi, so the second Minato sees Itachi's eyes changing form he'd teleport around.

k-lai
06-19-2011, 06:56 PM
Also Itachi isn't a taijutsu type, so once Minato gets in close it would be over.

Who told he wasn't a taijutsu type. The guy is versatile in forms of fighting(especially taijutsu with aid from sharingan) that's why he was one of the uchiha geniuses.

Adema
06-19-2011, 07:04 PM
itachi & sasuke vs ai & bee
and lets have a brawl with no time rules(who cares whos dead and what age they are just assume everyone is in their prime, im just talking about an all out villains vs heroes brawl with some of my favorites so plz dont criticize) lets see.. what about
hiruzen, jiraiya, naruto, tsunade vs orochimaru, itachi, kisame, and sasuke. interesting perhaps?

edit:
@kael; i think you're highly underestimating itachi...i think id agree minato would win but i dont think itd be as simple as "oh he uses sharingan lets do what i do vs every1 else and appear behind them and auto win with my FTG hax" itachi is very intelligent as is minato and both are very good at calculating and predicting moves, id think moreso itachi with sharingan. both are geniuses in times of war and accomplished great things. i think the main advantage that would eventually win vs itachi is simply FTG but idk how it would par with the MS techs. for example; madara vs minato couldve went very different if madara was trying to have an extended fight and after minato specifically. imagine that fight with some ms techs and id say a little less speed on itachis part compared to madara...but i consider madara an extremely fail planner & prediction maker compared to itachi. dont forget itachi couldnt off madara but madara was always afraid of itachi until he got /killed. i hate to type so much cause i feel like 1/2 the ppl dont even read these paragraphs cause i dont lol but a lot of things are variables in itachi vs minato. im sure if they were paired against each other they would immediately know who each other were and go all out immediately as in itachi goes mangekyou ect and minato throws 100s of marked kunai around. id say 6-4 in minatos favor however id say it would be a very very long battle.

kael03
06-19-2011, 07:37 PM
@kael; i think you're highly underestimating itachi

I'm not, I know very well what Itachi is capable of and I'm not discounting his abilities. But everyone is underestimating Minato, who went toe-to-toe against Madara and sent him running minus the Kyuubi and a hand. Itachi tried to take out Madara after death and it still didn't work. FTG is Minato's fighting style. He's taken out entire platoons by himself with it. Itachi would have a hard time tracking all of the kunai Minato throws and predicting where he would appear, if he figured out that the kunai are what makes FTG. Minato, on the other hand, has been shown to immediately figure out what a jutsu does as well as its strength and weaknesses by seeing it in action once. Minato was a Hokage at a younger age than anyone, with reason.

Adema
06-19-2011, 08:13 PM
you make valid points & i agree however u dnt think itachi could figure out where all the kunai were thrown via sharingan and know prior that the 'yellow flash' would obviously be using FTG? if ai can figure it out with seeing it im sure itachi could figure it out even quicker and act accordingly. i also think that the madara vs minato fight isnt 100% in minatos favor even tho technically he did send madara running; madaras goal was the kyuubi and konoha not minato. if madara went after minato similar to oro vs hiruzen i think the outcome couldve been different, or at least we wouldve seen more techs on each side before minato/madara withdrew before the losses were to great.

kael03
06-19-2011, 08:47 PM
you make valid points & i agree however u dnt think itachi could figure out where all the kunai were thrown via sharingan and know prior that the 'yellow flash' would obviously be using FTG? if ai can figure it out with seeing it im sure itachi could figure it out even quicker and act accordingly. i also think that the madara vs minato fight isnt 100% in minatos favor even tho technically he did send madara running; madaras goal was the kyuubi and konoha not minato. if madara went after minato similar to oro vs hiruzen i think the outcome couldve been different, or at least we wouldve seen more techs on each side before minato/madara withdrew before the losses were to great.

The thing is, A had no clue what FTG was until he witnessed Minato vanish an inch from being punched in the face and saw that he appeared at one of the kunai he threw. Almost everyone that knew of Minato's reputation as the "Yellow Flash" assumed he used Shunshin (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v27/c240/10.html), not Hiraishin. His own forces didn't know about Hiraishin's and the kunai during the third war. (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v27/c242/4.html) Hiraishin was often compared to Shunshin, as it looked similar when used just Hiraishin had a greater range of transport.

Also, last I checked the Sharingan couldn't track behind the user, nor track through space/time movements. Itachi would have to break sight with Minato to track where the kunai were thrown before focusing again on Minato. In that time Minato could move to a new location and possibly place more kunai down, making his movements more unpredictable.

ninjalostboy95
06-19-2011, 09:28 PM
Never said he was. Also, a kunai is much shorter than the short sword Bee had aimed at Minato's stomach. There's also the fact that Minato can throw dozens of his special kunai at once, giving Itachi a hard time to track them all down, and allowing Minato to jump around to keep Itachi off guard. Not to mention Minato can teleport to a kunai that's still in flight.

Why bust his brain tracking them when he can use a genjutsu clone? If Minato hits the wrong Itachi, he'll get genjutsu'd.

Minato's fighting style appears to revolve around using FTG to get behind his targets. Last I checked the Sharingan doesn't see through the back of the user's head. Also, Itachi has to have his Mangekyo active to use Tsukuyomi, so the second Minato sees Itachi's eyes changing form he'd teleport around.

You misunderstood, I meant exchanging blows and whatnot, not cheap knife tricks. Itachi can keep his mangekyo active and he needs one moment of eye contact.

hillhawk
06-19-2011, 09:29 PM
I'd give it to Itachi. He has been shown to be able to place an opponent in a genjutsu with just a finger movement. Even though Minato is fast, he would be unable to get his kunai thrown without getting stuck in a genjutsu. While Minato could probably get out of the genjutsu fairly quickly, even a split second would be enough for Itachi to use Amaterasu on Minato, giving him the win. Even if Minato's FTG kunai were already spread across the entire battlefield and he warped too fast for a genjutsu to be cast, Itachi would just use susanoo, and Minato would be unable to get a good hit on him. Itachi would hit him with either susanoo's sword, amaterasu, or a genjutsu before the susanoo wore off.

Adema
06-19-2011, 09:36 PM
@kael touche kael touche indeed, im pretty much convinced minato would rape itachi at this point, FTG is ultra hax more so than magic eye balls ;)>~ haha. perhaps im just biased cause itachi is one of my favorite characters and hes had a lot more screen time/pwnage time compared to minato. it seems easier to side with itachi putting up a good fight but then again if he couldnt off madara and minato seemed pretty in control in that skirmish even vs a more experienced sharingan you may be right, unfortunately :/.
@NLB i believe you actually misunderstood kael and not the other way around. 'cheap knife tricks' is similar to 'cheap magic eyeball tricks' as well but every ninja must use what they have at their disposal to win whether we as the readers think it is cheap or overpowered or what not they still have it and use it. minato would be stoopid to not use FTG and other T/S jutsu if they're available to him; similar to itachi not using ms techs. i dont think minato has ever really encountered someone besides madara who could actually 'exchange blows' and thats only cause of madaras own t/s jutsu ect. ps youre from manhatten?

@hillhawk; unfortunately i doubt itachi would open a fight like that or minato would be as easily caught in a genjustu as naruto and co were. itachi has been shown to hold back as much power as possible until the last resort, and i dont think minato would allow it to ge tthat point and now that i think about it...if minato was pretty much not phased by the fact ai(raikage whos said to be the fastest besides minato) and bee(8tails) and was bold enough/smart enough to still engage in combat. i doubt itachi wouldve done the same he prob wouldve /ran once realizing who they were similar to kisame and itachi trailing jiraiya.

kael03
06-19-2011, 10:06 PM
Why bust his brain tracking them when he can use a genjutsu clone? If Minato hits the wrong Itachi, he'll get genjutsu'd.

Have you ever seen a genjutsu clone? Aside from the fact that there has been no manga evidence of Itachi creating a clone and having it trigger a genjutsu, Minato was a genius of the highest caliber. As clones have no physical form, he could quickly deduce which Itachi is real based on the lack of shadow or affect on terrain.

You misunderstood, I meant exchanging blows and whatnot, not cheap knife tricks. Itachi can keep his mangekyo active and he needs one moment of eye contact.

Apparently you misunderstood. Minato wouldn't let it get to fisticuffs. He's never done that. He utilized FTG to make surprise attacks. As for the "cheap knife tricks", how is that any different from magic eyes that only the most skilled Uchiha can obtain and use effectively? How do you think Itachi would fare against a guy that can take out 50+ shinobi in the blink of an eye? Minato wouldn't let him get eye contact, or even fingertip contact.

You're ignoring everything that put Minato on the "Flee on Sight" list just so Itachi could win, when he would be hard-pressed to do so. I mean for fuck's sake, Minato not only dealt a damaging blow to Madara when Itachi couldn't with a trap Amaterasu, Minato took on a full powered Kyuubi and was WINNING.

ninjalostboy95
06-19-2011, 10:07 PM
No, Kael misunderstood what I meant by "Taijutsu" though I can't blame him, I wasn't specific about it. I mean a quick exchange of blows can lead to genjutsu or just one glance. (http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-387/13/) I'm trying to make him understand Itachi isn't getting 2 pieced so quick. If all fails, Susanoo can save the day.

I'm a Queens native but I'm in manhattan now. Hopefully we move back.

kael03
06-19-2011, 10:09 PM
No, Kael misunderstood what I meant by "Taijutsu" though I can't blame him, I wasn't specific about it. I mean a quick exchange of blows can lead to genjutsu or just one glance. (http://citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-387/13/) I'm trying to make him understand Itachi isn't getting 2 pieced so quick. If all fails, Susanoo can save the day.

I'm a Queens native but I'm in manhattan now. Hopefully we move back.

You seem to not grasp that Minato doesn't do hand-to-hand. He is the truest depiction of a ninja by utilizing surprise attacks from any direction. The only way Itachi would have a chance is if he knocks down all of Minato's kunai before they can be thrown too far. Even then it would be tricky as Minato can teleport to kunai that are still in motion.

Adema
06-19-2011, 10:20 PM
o i c @ queens, i live near the 6 in the b cross niggga shmoke a blunt, screw this forum shit. tomorrow wear a shirt that says 'NLB' on it...itll work...itll work. kael no thanks from you for agreeing? im e-hurt, thought we had something special

ninjalostboy95
06-19-2011, 10:25 PM
Have you ever seen a genjutsu clone? Aside from the fact that there has been no manga evidence of Itachi creating a clone and having it trigger a genjutsu, Minato was a genius of the highest caliber. As clones have no physical form, he could quickly deduce which Itachi is real based on the lack of shadow or affect on terrain.

I'm sure there's a genjutsu clone called Karasu bunshin or something like that. If not then Susanoo.

Apparently you misunderstood. Minato wouldn't let it get to fisticuffs. He's never done that. He utilized FTG to make surprise attacks. As for the "cheap knife tricks", how is that any different from magic eyes that only the most skilled Uchiha can obtain and use effectively? How do you think Itachi would fare against a guy that can take out 50+ shinobi in the blink of an eye? Minato wouldn't let him get eye contact, or even fingertip contact.

That's why I used the word "If." Itachi isn't going to get wiped out that quick.

kael03
06-19-2011, 10:30 PM
I'm sure there's a genjutsu clone called Karasu bunshin or something like that. If not then Susanoo.

And how is Itachi going to use Susano'o if Minato teleports to a kunai that is still in the air but right behind Itachi? You seem to ignore that part of my argument since it fully destroys yours. Even if Itachi managed to summon Susano'o, Minato is smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. Space/time barriers, FTG out of line of sight, FTG away from the sword, FTG behind Susano'o to use a Rasengan away from the shield.

That's why I used the word "If." Itachi isn't going to get wiped out that quick.

See above. I'm not discounting Itachi, but he doesn't stand a chance against someone that actually dealt damage to Madara and was winning against the Kyuubi.

ninjalostboy95
06-19-2011, 10:51 PM
And how is Itachi going to use Susano'o if Minato teleports to a kunai that is still in the air but right behind Itachi? You seem to ignore that part of my argument since it fully destroys yours. Even if Itachi managed to summon Susano'o, Minato is smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. Space/time barriers, FTG out of line of sight, FTG away from the sword, FTG behind Susano'o to use a Rasengan away from the shield.

Susanoo can be summoned at anytime. It'll provide 360 protection even if the back side of protection is by the Susanoo itself. By the time the kunai reaches behind Itachi, Minato's "Gateway" is behind Susanoo since you can't go in Susanoo without penetrating the shield first(And before you say anything, how many were inside Susanoo with the user? Yep, 0.) Susanoo invalidates your point. Minato may be smart but Itachi is no idiot. He wouldn't let Minato damage Susanoo.

kael03
06-19-2011, 11:01 PM
Susanoo can be summoned at anytime.

Wrong. Susano'o can only be summoned with the Mangekyo active. Minato could take out Itachi in the time it takes the Mangekyo to activate. Even if Itachi could summon Susano'o in time to stop Minato, Minato would teleport away to hide long enough to figure out the jutsu. Since Susano'o damages the user while active, all Minato would have to do is wait for Itachi to dismiss it to strike.

It'll provide 360 protection even if the back side of protection is by the Susanoo itself. By the time the kunai reaches behind Itachi, Minato's "Gateway" is behind Susanoo since you can't go in Susanoo without penetrating the shield first(And before you say anything, how many were inside Susanoo with the user? Yep, 0.) Susanoo invalidates your point.

Question. Since everyone in the damn village believed that Minato's Hiraishin was just a really really fast Shunshin, why would Itachi put up Susano'o? He brought out Susano'o as a last ditch defense against an attack that traveled at 1/1000 of a second, and Minato moves faster (I believe we've been over this before) as he travels through the fabric of space/time where lightning doesn't.

Minato may be smart but Itachi is no idiot. He wouldn't let Minato damage Susanoo.

I never said Itachi was an idiot. How many times to I have to say I'm not downplaying him in this? And how does Itachi not let anything damage Susano'o when he has to stay immobile and inside it? He can't defend Susano'o from the back, which is how Minato fights (inb4"doitfrombehind" jokes). Susano'o can't turn faster than Minato can teleport. There will be damage to it before Itachi can move it.

Adema
06-20-2011, 02:16 AM
ill remember this kael, /ignoring me. Adema shall conquor!

k-lai
06-20-2011, 10:20 AM
madaras goal was the kyuubi and konoha not minato.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-8/naruto/chapter-502.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-9/naruto/chapter-502.html
He was after Minato too...

Adema
06-20-2011, 10:38 AM
@k-lai i dont think madara specifically went to konoha to kill minato though or challenge him. id say the only reason he engaged minato is so that he wouldnt run off so quickly to warn konoha/hiruzen and/or stop the kyuubi. its not as if madara placed the kyuubi there to kill minato or distract everyone so he could duel minato. this is not comparable to orochimaru invading konoha just to take out hiruzen basically.

k-lai
06-20-2011, 10:50 AM
But minato did stop the kyuubi's attack so madara going after him was basically instinct to kill him

ninjalostboy95
06-20-2011, 10:51 AM
Susano'o can only be summoned with the Mangekyo active. Minato could take out Itachi in the time it takes the Mangekyo to activate.

I said that assuming Itachi had his MS from the beginning. You're overestimating Minato. His kunai isn't as fast as his FTG, meaning whatever point his kunai is at, he can teleport to, but his kunai can't magically warp behind the enemy, it has to travel at the speed he throws. His FTG has limits on where his kunai can travel or where his seals are placed.

Since everyone in the damn village believed that Minato's Hiraishin was just a fast Shunshin, why would Itachi put up Susano'o? He brought out Susano'o as a last ditch defense against an attack that traveled at 1/1000 of a second, and Minato moves faster as he travels through the fabric of space/time where lightning doesn't.

Because the villagers are retards. If A can figure out it was a S/T jutsu, Itachi can. If he can't deal with a faster person, he'll defend.

el_deevil
06-20-2011, 11:06 AM
When it comes to fight between Itachi & Minato I think the one whose chakra runs out first will be the loser, and considering the techs both of them use Itachi most probably will run out of chakra first. All minato need to do is keep pushing Itachi to use his mangekyo using some shadow clones, rasengan and FTG. Itachi can't take Minato using ordinary sharingan & the Mangekyo's techs take too much chakra, not to mention the strain it puts on the eyes. So I think Minato is the obvious winner.

kael03
06-20-2011, 11:50 AM
I said that assuming Itachi had his MS from the beginning. You're overestimating Minato. His kunai isn't as fast as his FTG, meaning whatever point his kunai is at, he can teleport to, but his kunai can't magically warp behind the enemy, it has to travel at the speed he throws. His FTG has limits on where his kunai can travel or where his seals are placed.

Considering this entire argument is based on Vishnu's match-up that had no prerequisites, you're trying to do anything you can to get Itachi to win. The match-up is Minato vs Itachi, that's it. Nothing has been set for starting, meaning Itachi wouldn't have his Mangekyo active in the beginning. But if you want to play that game, make it fair and give Minato a few kunai spread around. Unless you have both fighters using their trump cards in the beginning, your scenario is biased.

As for your "lolhecantthrowkunaifast" he throws them by the dozens, not just one at a time. Itachi wouldn't be able to track them all at once, and would have to break sight of Minato to see where a lot of them went. Even if he knew of FTG and its connection with the kunai, how do you think he would fare trying to predict which moving kunai Minato would teleport to?

Because the villagers are retards. If A can figure out it was a S/T jutsu, Itachi can. If he can't deal with a faster person, he'll defend.

A had to see it to figure it out and it still took him a minute. A was also the second fastest ninja alive, meaning faster than Itachi, and Minato was faster still. Minato kept Hiraishin a secret, not even Itachi would've known about it. And since Itachi was the ripe age of 5 when Minato died, he wouldn't have had the chance to witness it in action before then.

Winner Minato due to FTG and having a greater base speed/reflexes than any other ninja. Itachi was screwed.

Vishnu
06-20-2011, 12:03 PM
Considering this entire argument is based on Vishnu's match-up that had no prerequisites, you're trying to do anything you can to get Itachi to win. The match-up is Minato vs Itachi, that's it. Nothing has been set for starting, meaning Itachi wouldn't have his Mangekyo active in the beginning. But if you want to play that game, make it fair and give Minato a few kunai spread around. Unless you have both fighters using their trump cards in the beginning, your scenario is biased.

As for your "lolhecantthrowkunaifast" he throws them by the dozens, not just one at a time. Itachi wouldn't be able to track them all at once, and would have to break sight of Minato to see where a lot of them went. Even if he knew of FTG and its connection with the kunai, how do you think he would fare trying to predict which moving kunai Minato would teleport to?

It seems that kael03 gave the best explanation for the fight...Itachi can use Susano'o to defend himself but for how long he can keep up....MS techs are using much more chakra than FTG and Rasengan...


A had to see it to figure it out and it still took him a minute. A was also the second fastest ninja alive, meaning faster than Itachi, and Minato was faster still. Minato kept Hiraishin a secret, not even Itachi would've known about it. And since Itachi was the ripe age of 5 when Minato died, he wouldn't have had the chance to witness it in action before then.

Winner Minato due to FTG and having a greater base speed/reflexes than any other ninja. Itachi was screwed.


Itachi it's in disadvantage here because Minato can overwhelm him with Rasengans and FTG...and for how long he can keep up the Susano'o?...The only chance Itachi has is to put Minato in a powerful genjutsu, maybe Tsukuyomi...at least that's my opinion

Anyway kael gave the best outcome for the fight

NeoKakarott023
06-20-2011, 01:54 PM
Considering this entire argument is based on Vishnu's match-up that had no prerequisites, you're trying to do anything you can to get Itachi to win. The match-up is Minato vs Itachi, that's it. Nothing has been set for starting, meaning Itachi wouldn't have his Mangekyo active in the beginning. But if you want to play that game, make it fair and give Minato a few kunai spread around. Unless you have both fighters using their trump cards in the beginning, your scenario is biased.

As for your "lolhecantthrowkunaifast" he throws them by the dozens, not just one at a time. Itachi wouldn't be able to track them all at once, and would have to break sight of Minato to see where a lot of them went. Even if he knew of FTG and its connection with the kunai, how do you think he would fare trying to predict which moving kunai Minato would teleport to?



A had to see it to figure it out and it still took him a minute. A was also the second fastest ninja alive, meaning faster than Itachi, and Minato was faster still. Minato kept Hiraishin a secret, not even Itachi would've known about it. And since Itachi was the ripe age of 5 when Minato died, he wouldn't have had the chance to witness it in action before then.

Winner Minato due to FTG and having a greater base speed/reflexes than any other ninja. Itachi was screwed.

Not in this but memory serves me with the battle between Sasuke & Itachi, the shuriken battle between the 2, but not only was he able to track Sasuke's and vice versa, he managed to get off his Crow Clone jutsu, it shocked Sasuke that he had the time. Just saying.

AOTKorby
06-20-2011, 01:57 PM
10,000th post, had to do it. How the fuck is this topic still going?

Anywho, let's compare Itachi v Sasuke to an Apache vs a Ground-Air missile. It doesn't matter how much firepower you give the Apache, it does not have the speed to not get annihilated by the ground-air missile. End of story.

ninjalostboy95
06-20-2011, 02:05 PM
Wall of text is too long.

@kael: I never set anything. I said I was assuming he had MS then dismissed it because we weren't on the same page(waiting for lol backpedalling.) Itachi can activate MS before Minato throws a kunai(s) at Itachi which was the point of what I said earlier. Doesn't take long. Itachi doesn't have to keep track of the kunai, that's why he has Susano'o. Really now? He was 5 so he couldn't have seen it in action? So what? Raikage saw what the technique was and how it worked the first time Minato used it, what makes you think Itachi can't do the same? I'm not saying Itachi would always win but it would go either way and it wouldn't be as easy as a 3 step process as you're making it to be and I'm not creating scenarios. -_- I'm done.