Summon part of the battle. Minato summons Bunta while Jiraiya summons Gama. Orochimaru summons Manda. Manda can go toe to toe with Bunta, if Gama is there it only increases the changes of the sannin winning this part of the battle.

Ninjutsu
Minato has incomplete rasengan, Hiraishin (which I've already stated the flaws in this), deathgod, toad summoning.

Jiraiya has rasengan, toad tec not limited to summoning, Doton & Katon elements, hair manipulation, sealing jutsu, hermit mode, sound genjutsu just to give a few examples.

Orochimaru has snake summoning, regeneration, Doton & Fuuton elements, various kinjutsu, Kusanagi sword just to give a few examples.

Shodi has wood element(Suiton & Doton), regeneration from edo, darkness jutsu, strong taijutsu

Nadi has Suiton element & regeneration from edo.

Kimi has kick ass Taijutsu, the perfect physical body, bone manipulation, CS transformations, & regeneration from edo.

Sannin group wins this part based the amount of abilities they could use.

Taijutsu
Ok seriously.... Jiraiya hermit modes, Shodi's strong Taijutsu, & Kimi's perfect body & bone manipulation would be more then enough to stop Minato in taijutsu. Then we have to consider Orochimaru & Nami are there as well?

Anyway not sure how much longer I want to add on to this fight as it's pretty one sided & we don't know everything about Minato to be seriously doing this fight anyway.

Not to mention 3 of those people would not fight since they are dead and minato wouldn't let them be re summoned also you left out SUSHINN JUTSU WHICH IS FUKING FAST AS HELL TOO AND BY FAR THE FASTEST WE HAVE SEEN.

And the flaw you stated don't exist in the manga so sorry and i won't take some fuking fan site word for it.

@mikey shodaime isn't alive he is dead he would need to be summoned in which case he can't since oro would be dead just quit.I've already proven how Oro would survive and summon them. SPEED ZOMG isn't all there is to it.

also the genjutsu was used by nidaime not shodaime,it was shodaime in the anime.Wrong: http://www.leafninja.com/genjutsu.php Nidaime used it in the anime, the technique itself is Shodaime's.

Fan boy of what you are trying to use all the handicaps you can't saying shit like rep and blah blah balh please wuit it to summon kages oro needs to be alive which he won't be.Yes, fanboy. You've always fanboy'ed Yondaime. To you, he's the best ninja EVAR. In one on one situations, most likely. But as I said, not against the right ninjas.

Fodder nin garbage nin its still yondaime's speed it doesn't matter who you are he can still get you of he wouldn't be called greatest nin/kage ever.Do you really not know the difference between fodder nin and actual skilled, experienced nin? And how both would react? Wow.

I've already proven how Oro would survive and summon them. SPEED ZOMG isn't all there is to it.

Wrong: http://www.leafninja.com/genjutsu.php Nidaime used it in the anime, the technique itself is Shodaime's.

Yes, fanboy. You've always fanboy'ed Yondaime. To you, he's the best ninja EVAR. In one on one situations, most likely. But as I said, not against the right ninjas.

Do you really not know the difference between fodder nin and actual skilled, experienced nin? And how both would react? Wow.

I am sorry i proved that i was right don't be angry your "right" nin are weaker then he is he wouldn't let the fuking emo oro do shit talk all you want you know i won't change my mind unless you show other things for me to mud doesn't COUNT lmaoo.

Because like i said hirashin and sushinn is enough to kill him before he gets to do anything so sorry.

And really you have no right to make this fight since you don't jack shit about yondaime i am sure if we knew more he would obliterate all these guys as well even if they were summoned.

And no speed is enough to win 2 vs one or better yet one on one because jiraiya would be alive.

Oro was beaing pwned by 2 genins pre time skip mud didn't really help him he only used mud when ue saw sasuke pildriving his ass.

Not to mention 3 of those people would not fight since they are dead and minato wouldn't let them be re summoned also you left out SUSHINN JUTSU WHICH IS FUKING FAST AS HELL TOO AND BY FAR THE FASTEST WE HAVE SEEN.

And the flaw you stated don't exist in the manga so sorry and i won't take some fuking fan site word for it.
Stop crying Nami seriously I didn't mention sushinn because its an average tec that most normal jounin know. Its not what makes Minato special. & the flaw does exist I already pointed it out. Theres no need to repeat it again just because you don't want to agree with me.

I am sorry i proved that i was right don't be angry your "right" nin are weaker then he is he wouldn't let the fuking emo oro do shit talk all you want you know i won't change my mind unless you show other things for me to mud doesn't COUNT lmaoo.Nice paragraph of typical crap from you. :p Sorry, but, I should have expected it.

Because like i said hirashin and sushinn is enough to kill him before he gets to do anything so sorry.No, it isn't. I've already proven why not (at least for Oro), and seriously, I did SAY Oro used Edo Tensei, so I'm not sure where you're getting this whole, kill Oro before Edo Tensei, from.

And really you have no right to make this fight since you don't jack shit about yondaimeI don't need to be an expert on one character to know what was shown in the manga from him. Unfortunetely, you put him on some high place where he's untouchable, and he really isn't. Hell, if we want to get technical, Madara himself indirectly beat Yondaime, since it was him who summoned Kyuubi who forced Yondaime to give his life, and Madara is STILL around. And so is Kyuubi. So please, PLEASE, just stop the terrible fanboying.

i am sure if we knew more he would obliterate all these guys as well even if they were summoned.Mhm. But since we don't, and we go by what we know, it kills you that he can be beaten.

And no speed is enough to win 2 vs one or better yet one on one because jiraiya would be alive.Speed isn't enough against two powerful ninjas like HM Jiraiya and Edo Tensei readied Oro, who also has Manda. So it's really Yondaime vs HM Jiraiya, Oro, Manda (and please don't say fanboy BS like 'omg his speeds his speeds is 2 much oro wont get a chance 2 summon manda zomg teh speedz'), Shodaime, Nidaime, and Kimimaro. Those of which you've yet to even say how Yondaime would get around them and their abilities. Oh, lemme guess, SPEED, right? XD

Oro was beaing pwned by 2 genins pre time skip mud didn't really help him he only used mud when ue saw sasuke pildriving his ass.Fact is, he still used mud to escape certain situations. He'll use it against Yondaime, too.

Edit: Also, Kishi has his own databook, which can be bought. It's not online, and the creators of Leafninja took the databooks' information and used it in their site. So yeah, they did use facts.

Nice paragraph of typical crap from you. :p Sorry, but, I should have expected it.

No, it isn't. I've already proven why not (at least for Oro), and seriously, I did SAY Oro used Edo Tensei, so I'm not sure where you're getting this whole, kill Oro before Edo Tensei, from.

I don't need to be an expert on one character to know what was shown in the manga from him. Unfortunetely, you put him on some high place where he's untouchable, and he really isn't. Hell, if we want to get technical, Madara himself indirectly beat Yondaime, since it was him who summoned Kyuubi who forced Yondaime to give his life, and Madara is STILL around. And so is Kyuubi. So please, PLEASE, just stop the terrible fanboying.

Mhm. But since we don't, and we go by what we know, it kills you that he can be beaten.

Speed isn't enough against two powerful ninjas like HM Jiraiya and Edo Tensei readied Oro, who also has Manda. So it's really Yondaime vs HM Jiraiya, Oro, Manda (and please don't say fanboy BS like 'omg his speeds his speeds is 2 much oro wont get a chance 2 summon manda zomg teh speedz'), Shodaime, Nidaime, and Kimimaro. Those of which you've yet to even say how Yondaime would get around them and their abilities. Oh, lemme guess, SPEED, right? XD

Fact is, he still used mud to escape certain situations. He'll use it against Yondaime, too.

Edit: Also, Kishi has his own databook, which can be bought. It's not online, and the creators of Leafninja took the databooks' information and used it in their site. So yeah, they did use facts.

Yes just like they ddi other things with filler arcs using them as proof for some characters really believeable.

As for the fight i didn't know they were already summoned your post said "is able to SUMMON" that's why i said he has no chance in summoning them because minato would flat out kill him before that.

But really that is way to much of an advantage for your side and yet they still can't beat minato since he can use death god and don't even tell me it won't work he can use bushinn to seal them all up just like sarutobi did it with oro and other kages and yes he can get them since he is faster then all of them.

@V his sushinn is faster the anyone else we have seen otheriwse it would have said so that somebody is faster then him which nobdy is every sushinn is faster then the other.

Itachi is faster then kakashi sasuke is faster then sai and i don't know between itachi and sasuke.

also mikey madara couldn't do shit to minato even if minato had one hand tied behind his back he lost to shodaime whom was surpassed by sarutobi he got fuked over by shodaime once.

then he used kyuubi as revenge and failed miserably since kyuubi was stopped by minato kyuubi stll around really i haven't seeen him roaming the village these days and not thats kyubi's soul his realy body is long gone.

Why because minato beat it he pulled out the soul of the strongest demon end of story.


And it's pathetic for so many ninjas to fight him at once to even stand a chance and even then he can't lose worst case scenerio he seals there ass's

Yes just like they ddi other things with filler arcs using them as proof for some characters really believeable.What?

As for the fight i didn't know they were already summoned your post said "is able to SUMMON" that's why i said he has no chance in summoning them because minato would flat out kill him before that.Oh, well, my bad then. I should have reworded it. >.> Stupid going fast.

But really that is way to much of an advantage for your side and yet they still can't beat minato since he can use death god and don't even tell me it won't work he can use bushinn to seal them all up just like sarutobi did it with oro and other kages and yes he can get them since he is faster then all of them.Ah, but I didn't say Yondaime can't use Death God. :) He can. I was wondering how long it'd take you to bring that out. And that's pretty much where he loses/doesn't win. It's either, he loses in the fight itself, or uses DGJ and loses. Either way, he's not walking out of that fight the victor/alive.

also mikey madara couldn't do shit to minato even if minato had one hand tied behind his back he lost to shodaime whom was surpassed by sarutobi he got fuked over by shodaime once.I didn't say Madara could even touch Yondaime. XD I'm saying IF we want to get technical, Madara was responsible for Mintao's death. This is going by the storyline. In an actual fight, I can't argue on either side.

then he used kyuubi as revenge and failed miserably since kyuubi was stopped by minatoIt failed and succeeded. It failed at destroying Konoha, but it succeeded in taking Minato away for good, by forcing him to use the sealing.

kyuubi stll around really i haven't seeen him roaming the village these days and not thats kyubi's soul his realy body is long gone.You know what I mean. Kyuubi is alive and well within Naruto. He's just not as free as he'd like to be.

Why because minato beat it he pulled out the soul of the strongest demon end of story.No, end of story is Minato was forced to give himself up to save Konoha by sealing Kyuubi. Don't you get it?

And it's pathetic for so many ninjas to fight him at once to even stand a chance and even then he can't lose worst case scenerio he seals there ass'sHow is it pathetic? I mean, he IS your zomg go to character, right? :p Mr. Greatest Hokage of all time whom no one can touch and who's speed is supposed to own all? Yeah. As I said, in this fight, he either loses normally, or loses by sealing them all. In the end, he loses. And all just by using two characters under the right circumstances. :p

I guess there isn't really much to say now. =\

What?

Oh, well, my bad then. I should have reworded it. >.> Stupid going fast.

Ah, but I didn't say Yondaime can't use Death God. :) He can. I was wondering how long it'd take you to bring that out. And that's pretty much where he loses/doesn't win. It's either, he loses in the fight itself, or uses DGJ and loses. Either way, he's not walking out of that fight the victor/alive.

neither are any of them :D

And yes you should have worded your post better because i would falt out not even post then now you just made me write a shit load of things got me semi pissed.

@V his sushinn is faster the anyone else we have seen otheriwse it would have said so that somebody is faster then him which nobdy is every sushinn is faster then the other.

Itachi is faster then kakashi sasuke is faster then sai and i don't know between itachi and sasuke.

Again Nami Minato is called Konoha's Yellow Flash because of Hiraishin no Jutsu not because of Sushinn. You don't know if Minato was faster then Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade, White Fang, Dan, Uchiha Shisui, Sasuke, Itachi because these people never fought each other period. So we don't know if his sushinn is the best ever because sushinn was not his true speed. Hiraishin no Jutsu was Minato's fastest speeds & the reason why he got the reputation & title he had.

What?

Oh, well, my bad then. I should have reworded it. >.> Stupid going fast.

Ah, but I didn't say Yondaime can't use Death God. :) He can. I was wondering how long it'd take you to bring that out. And that's pretty much where he loses/doesn't win. It's either, he loses in the fight itself, or uses DGJ and loses. Either way, he's not walking out of that fight the victor/alive.

I didn't say Madara could even touch Yondaime. XD I'm saying IF we want to get technical, Madara was responsible for Mintao's death. This is going by the storyline. In an actual fight, I can't argue on either side.

It failed and succeeded. It failed at destroying Konoha, but it succeeded in taking Minato away for good, by forcing him to use the sealing.

You know what I mean. Kyuubi is alive and well within Naruto. He's just not as free as he'd like to be.

No, end of story is Minato was forced to give himself up to save Konoha by sealing Kyuubi. Don't you get it?

How is it pathetic? I mean, he IS your zomg go to character, right? :p Mr. Greatest Hokage of all time whom no one can touch and who's speed is supposed to own all? Yeah. As I said, in this fight, he either loses normally, or loses by sealing them all. In the end, he loses. And all just by using two characters under the right circumstances. :p

I guess there isn't really much to say now. =\Requoting in case you missed the second half, Nami.

neither are any of them :D

And yes you should have worded your post better because i would falt out not even post then now you just made me write a shit load of things got me semi pissed.
This was the second reason why I chose this topic, pitting Yondaime, your boy, against overwhelming odds, that not even he could overcome. I wanted to see if you'd get pissy, and you did. =\ I want you to debate without getting pissy, and without getting overconfident. Even if your side isn't on the winning end. Know what I mean?

Edit: Vengeance, you realise you just opened up a whole can of whoop ass by bringing in those names, and saying we don't know that Minato is faster than them, right? :O

Again Nami Minato is called Konoha's Yellow Flash because of Hiraishin no Jutsu not because of Sushinn.The debated ended already please read my last post. You don't know if Minato was faster then Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade,yes i do tsunade is slowno speed ever her biggest fight was all taijutsu,jiraiya no speed either sure above average but not fast like minato or something would be mentiond and pein would be dead for real. orochimaru please don't make me lugh he has never shown any sorts of speed in fights. white fang dead seshui was killed by itachi sasuke would be called faster then yondaime but they aren't.

Dan roflmfaooo wow i can't beleive you would mention him a chunnin.

Oh wait i forgot something.

Yondaime the greatest ninja/kage in history of konoha skill wise,genius,and hero wise that's all that needs to be said.

Also sasuke's sushinn doesn't leave behind reflections would you like a link to prove yondaime's does.

Sorry but these loseres are nothing in speed compared to him ok hirashin made his the nickname sure but his sushinn is still unsurpassed.

@ mikey not 2 ninjas 5 ninjas and 2 summons which is 7 beings in total and even then they can't beat him and die with him. Also kyuubi isn't well if naruto dies so does he kyuubi has no actual body of his own he is a soul that got his ass kicked by minato while kyuubi had a body.

Anyways i am out mad boring here already, later.

Well, this has gotten heated, and I've kind of succeeded in what I was out to do.

NEW FIGHT!

Itachi vs Jiraiya.

Stipulations (so I don't fuck up again): Itachi can use MS, and he won't get blind vision, but his chakra does still go down. Jiraiya can use Hermit Mode and all the goodies that come with it.

I like how you cut out the rest of my post Nami. You don't know because they never fought is what I was saying. Anyway I'm done with you I feel like I proved my point. Your just fanboying at this point & I really don't need to waste my time on you anymore cya.

Edit: I may comment on that fight after I go to the store mikey. I'll side with Itachi just to be an a$$.

Well, this has gotten heated, and I've kind of succeeded in what I was out to do.

NEW FIGHT!

Itachi vs Jiraiya.

Stipulations (so I don't fuck up again): Itachi can use MS, and he won't get blind vision, but his chakra does still go down. Jiraiya can use Hermit Mode and all the goodies that come with it.

Jiraiya hands down he already overcame amaterasu once not to mention frog song would kill itachi since it's a very high level genjutsu possibly S rank and it paralizes you.

And jiraiya has more then enough wit and power to overcome tsukuyomi and the frog can help.

or he can set up a nice barrer get in it and when itachi tries to come in he get's sliced in half.

and we already know what ultimat rasengan can do or what jiraiya's katon would do against a bunch of c rank shit.

@V, i cut out the rest cause it was useless.

I guess this was just another one sided fight. >.>

Alright....Itachi (using the same stipulations) & Fatty McFatFat Pain & I'm A Barbie Girl In A Barbie World Pain vs Jiraiya (same stipulations).

O_O

Itachi and 3 Pain vs Jiraiya - probably Jiraiya dead.

Yondaime vs Oro + Jira - probably Yondaime dead.
Yondaime was that great that it's probably, not definitely. But I don't think he can stand up to a combined power of the two Sannin.

Itachi and 3 Pain vs Jiraiya - probably Jiraiya dead.

Yondaime vs Oro + Jira - probably Yondaime dead.
Yondaime was that great that it's probably, not definitely. But I don't think he can stand up to a combined power of the two Sannin.No, Itachi & Fat Pain & Summoner Pain vs Jiraiya. :p

No, Itachi & Fat Pain & Summoner Pain vs Jiraiya. :p

Well, that's almost the same. The long haired Pain didn't really do much against Jiraiya anyway =)

Well, that's almost the same. The long haired Pain didn't really do much against Jiraiya anyway =)Did he do anything at all? That Pain seemed useless. =\

And since the actual Pain isn't there, should his bodies, get, you know, dead, they can't be revived.

XD I just realised this is just another one sided topic!

Minato's speed is enough to get in close to Summoner Pain (still kind of risky, though) and Rasengan his ass to kingdom come. Fatty Pain would be trouble, since he could just absorb Rasengan. And I don't really know how Minato does in taijutsu. Then it's back to Itachi. But if Itachi catches Minato in strong genjutsu while he fights off the two Pains....

Mikey you mean Jiraiya not Minato right?

Mikey you mean Jiraiya not Minato right?GRRR! :mad:

I gotta go eat some food. =\

Jiraiya (he can use Hermit Mode, but doesn't start in it) vs Itachi (can use his MS, but doesn't have the blinding affect), Summoner Pain, and Fatty Pain.

There. :(

Can I make Itachi a body of Pein but still has his own abilities? Like he's taking the place of that useless long haired Pein? Or is Itachi his own person?

Itachi is his own person.

Though, humor me. Why would you make Itachi a Pain body?

Itachi is his own person.

Though, humor me. Why would you make Itachi a Pain body?

to grant him Peins hive sight as well as his own sharingan. But his own person seems fair. I'll right something up now.

How would that work, though? Sharingan + Rinnegan? O_O

Be prepared for something fierce from Nami, since we do know what Jiraiya can do in battle, fully. :)

How would that work, though? Sharingan + Rinnegan? O_O

Be prepared for something fierce from Nami, since we do know what Jiraiya can do in battle, fully. :)

well it'll allow Itachi to see what the other Peins see. So any blind spots (attacks from behind) could be countered using the hive or collective visions of the other bodies.

With the kind of speed provided from the Hiraishin no Jutsu, couldn't Minato just tag him with the kunai and warp over to deliver a fatal blow? Such as a kunai slice to the neck. Or perhaps just tag em with that seal if he gets close enough, which, if speed is Minato's greatest asset, which I assume it is, then it would be little trouble to do so.

-edit- oooo okay...so Jiraiya...dangit Mikey you're confusing me.
This fight was with Jiraiya. =\ I apologise for the confusion.

Barbie has proven himself to be fully capable of compeating with Jiraiya in the summoning department. Barbie could summon a bird for Itachi to fly on. Allowing Itachi to attack Jiraiya from the air with Katon & Ameretsu. If Itachi is able to pull off Ameretsu in the air I don't see how Jiraiya would be able to dodge such a large attack. I'm open to any theories you may have concerning this type of strategy Nami. McFat would need to stay near Barbie to protect him. McFat has already proven himself to be strong enough with withstand Hermits deep fryer & Ultimate Rasengan.

Now is the hard part Jiraiyas toad song. Sound genjutsu is said to be the most dangerous type of genjutsu. The only time sound has been blocked was by Chouji using his meatball jutsu. Itachi, Barby, & McFat can not do this type of jutsu to block out the sound. So the question is which jutsu would execute first? Toad song or Ameretsu. Sense Ameretsu is related to vision if Itachi is above Jiraiya while Jiraiya is preparing the song all Itachi needs to do is look over Jiraiya & the fights over. As I don't ever recall Jiraiya traveling underground he'd have no where to run.

Well, I imagine if it was Pein using Itachi's body, he would be choosing between the MS and the Rinnegan. I suppose it's possible to have one eye of each, but that would also mean he would only have half of the MS, and that eye would still eventually go blind from usage.

So it's a question, which MS ability are we talking about here?
I'm not going to bother with Tsukuyomi as Jiraiya knows methods around genjutsu. Mikey already said he wanted Itachi as his own person which is why I put him in the air :p

Edit: I wanted an open field an enclosed space favors Jiraiya in my opinion because of his toad stomach. Jiraiya would pwn these 3 with this jutsu alone. But location is up to Mikey I guess this is his fight.

Why toad stomach would pwn. McFat absorbs chakra based attacks. This jutsu seems to be physical. Barbie has no room to move aroud & can't get out his larger summons. All Itachi could do against this was run away using Ameratsu when he was put in this situation.

So jiraiya vs itachi and 2 loser peins ok.

Jiraiya wins once in hermit mode he has the luxury of the smart toads who can find weakness in the sharingan. Now it is a lot easier for jiraiya since pein doesn't have perfect vision since he now has blind spots jiraiyacan kick that loser in the face taking out his eye sight now there is one pein with vision and itachi with sharingan.

All he needs is to quickly get up in itachi's face and use ultimate rasengan while itachi dodges hit the other pein with another kick in the face 2 blind losers one good.

Now since there is no third pein the other 2 don't have the luxury of knowing what going on so they are pretty much useless. so it is a one vs one.

Jiraiya's super powerful katon are to much for itachi's c rank gokokyou his power is to much as well and he can fight without looking in his eye and half a frog do the looking for him. as for amaterasu he can dodge it and seal it up AGAIN then what itachi is done a nice frog genjutsu and it's over or he can set up a barrier trap and use his bushinn to distract itachi while he uses ultimate rasengan again.

Jiraiya wins it even quicker then fighting the 3 peins.

I still like my battle plan better for this fight & think it'll work on J-man. Come on Nami I'm still waiting on your counter to the air-born Ameretsu. What could the J-man do in this situation?

I still like my battle plan better for this fight & think it'll work on J-man. Come on Nami I'm still waiting on your counter to the air-born Ameretsu.

I already wrote up how easily jiraiya would win.

as for the amaterasu once again dodges it the seals it up with highest rank fire suppressor jutsu like he did before or just leaves it alone after he dodges it.

I already wrote up how easily jiraiya would win.

as for the amaterasu once again dodges it the seals it up with highest rank fire suppressor jutsu like he did before or just leaves it alone after he dodges it.
You didn't read my post then Itachi is on a bird Pein summoned flying over Jiraiya & simply looks at him with Ameretsu. There is no room to dodge or time to seal as Jiraiya is already in Itachi's line of sight. Am I going to have to post the last picture in chapter 389? Sasuke is not in Itachi's line of sight in that shot as Normal Katon was being used before Itachi activated Ameretsu.

Edit: Hey mystik & SMFox :cool:

o.O I dun see Mystik anywhere. As for your aerial attack, Jiraiya could always hide in one of his barriers. Pein was forced to come through the barrier to be able to attack him, so I would assume it could keep out attacks such as that as well.
See thats what I was looking for :) You make a valid point about the barrier. Although this also means Jiraiya can't attack until he leaves it. If Barbe, McFat & Itachi aren't dumb enough to walk in after Jiraiya then they could simply wait for him to exit the barrier & continue on the offensive.

It said her name was in this thread a little while ago.

Edit: No more comments about this one?? I'll just add Ameratsui burns for 7 days & nights right? Jiraiya would have to stay in the barrier for 7 days strait now unless he has food on him he'll be very hungry & drained of energy before the flames burn out. While Itachi, McFat, & Barbe could hunt some deer & continue to keep up there strength up before Jiraiya is able to exit the barrier. Giving them an advantage over Jiraiya after he exits the barrier. Also he can't prepare seals for Ameratsui if the flames aren't in the barrier he's in. Jiraiya would need to exit the barrier first which would mean he's instantly incinerated because the flames are all around the opening of the barrier.

Just a few things. Isn't Itachi's Amaretsura basically made to burn through anything? Why wouldn't it burn through Jiraiya's barrier? Also, the location is a nice open grass field, ala Kimi vs the 3 stooges.

I don't know. Jiraiya will have his hand full against Summoner Pain's beasts, and will be forced to go Hermit Mode quickly. Problem is, while Jiraiya is fending off Pain's summons, what's to stop Itachi from going behind Jiraiya and attacking with something fierce?

Ahh but there in lies your ultimate downfall then. Jiraiya has already shown himself capable of traveling through his frogs in such a manner as to transport himself to another location. Who's to say he couldn't do it from inside his barrier, and then come up behind his enemies and royally mess them up with a heavy surprise attack?
OOO nice one hehehe. You're right he could. & now I've just wasted chakra with Itachi & he should be momentarily stunned. hmm... 2 Pein bodies doesn't really make for good hive vision. Though Itachi is still air born overlooking the area. Jiraiya may takeout Barbe first in this surprise attack as he's the most dangerous. Leaving a flying Itachi with Katon & McFat on the ground. If Itachi is smart he'll let Mcfat attack first to absorb attacks. Itachi could then create 2 shadow clones to assist McFat in Taijutsu. Once Jiraiya tries to physically attack the clones Itachi forces them to explode. During this time McFat grabs Jiraiya & Itachi uses Ameratsu again. This time Jiraiya can't make hand signs. :p

Edit: o damn I just thought of a way he would get around this. But lets see if you can come up with it.

McFat would be fried too. He had to do stuff to absorb ninjutsu, it's not like it just touches him and magically fades away. Also, you're assuming that Jiraiya is weak enough to be taken by two clones and the fat one who's only specialty is eating jutsu.

Don't forget, hermit mode also boosted his speed, strength and overall prowess dramatically. Even with the three way sight from Pein, he managed to get around it and deliver a crushing blow that blinded the one body. Assuming he's taken out mr summoner, as you've suggested, it would be little trouble to deal with two clones, especially when they're only purpose is to explode which, as Kakashi has shown us, can be avoided with relative ease.

So it would be a simple matter to do the same and blind McFat and then he's completely useless, as there are no others to share vision with. Then it's just a question of Itachi vs Jiraiya
Was using the clones explosion as a distraction for Jiraiya so Mcfat could grab him. Yes McFat dies while holding Jiraiya but this is so Itachi can hit with Ameratsu.

If Jiraiya can easily avoid getting grabbed by Mcfat while distracted by exploding clones. While still having time to avoid another Ameratsu he'll win. Itachi would be to drained at this point. So the question is would two exploding Itachi clones be enough of a distraction so McFat could grab him? Taking into account Jiriyas superior taijutsu ability while in hermit mode it's hard for me to argue that point. But I'll stick to it just for this debate.

You forgot to take into account my edited part. Itachi is no longer on the birdie, and Barbies downfall has made him take a great big fall. I wonder if he can land gracefully from such a height. And even then, that alone, on top of being drained from his first Amaterasu...it would first come down to a question of IF he could even manage to make the two clones in that condition. All the while...Jiraiya is still in motion making his move against McFat.

o missed that part bye bye summons eekkk welll umm... Yeah that fall would hurt... before Itachi falls he makes one last effort to kill Jiraiya with Amaterasu. Itachi then falls to the ground with both legs broken acouple of shattered ribs & heavy chakra fatigue from 2 Amaterasu & Katon. Jiraiya appears behind Itachi & sings a song just for fun. Itachi gets caught in the sound genjutsu & is impaled.

Edit: then again wouldn't Itachi fall into his own flames... eekkk yeah if Itachi has no birdy this fights over.

Lol, an Amaterasu on the way down eh? Can't quite picture that actually happening, seeing as it appears to require so much focus, such as going one eyed, + hand seals +aiming it...it's all a little too much to perform on the way down...and then there's the question of accuracy while falling. o,O Does this mean you yield?
Yeah I give. The main argument was having Itachi use Ameratsu over Jiraiya while Jiraiya used toad song. Sense Itachi's jutsu is related to sight so it should comeout before the song. When you put Jiraiya in a barrier then teleport out using a frog to get in a sneak attack. The best pick of targets would be Barbe. It'll stop the summons & knock Itachi off the bird sense it would vanish. Leaving to many holes in the strategy to work if this were to happen. So yes I give :p

SMFox: 2 Vengeance: 0 NEXT BATTLE!!!

LOL Sasuke vs. Itachi was the first I take it :P I don't mind admitting defeat to someone who can actually add substance to there post. Such as yourself SMFox :cool:. Though I'd have to say even though you won that debate from what we've seen in SvI fight the multiple element & Madara training theory seem less likely. However a win is a win hmmm *thinks of a debate for SMFox*

o.O Indeed, hypothetical BS is my specialty ^.^

It's just a question of adding logic to that BS to make it seem more plausible. I still hope Itachi wins though. This isn't fair that his blindness would finally catch up to him now of all times.
I'm not counting Itachi out just yet. As I don't think Ameratsu is going to be the last jutsu he uses. I'm still hoping for a little more Taijutsu & mid-level ninjutsu to finish off this fight. Itachi's blurred vision could be a result of Sasuke braking his genjutsu in the first place. But yeah things don't look good for him at this point. Itachi's eye even started bleeding at the end of the chapter. Though I'm rooting for Sasuke personally. :cool:

Jiraiya wins it even quicker then fighting the 3 peins.

That did make me laugh. Seriously.

Jiraiya tries taijutsu on Itachi like he did on that Pain with long hair, and BAM, there he hugged an exploding KB! Such a waste no?

Any form of ninjutsu is absorbed. Itachi can Tsukuyomi not only Jiraiya, but one of the frogs is even better choice.
As Sasuke genjutsued Manda, I am sure a MS can affect Ma and Pa.

Amaterasu would be impossible to avoid due to the summons who would keep piling up against Jiraiya. He can be cornered easily overwhelmed with such number of opponents, not to mention that one of those opponents is a summoner who summons all kinds of animals and strange shit and one is a MS Uchiha.

Kakashi who has the Sharingan couldn't follow Itachi's speed, how can a non-Sharingan user? Therefore, Itachi easily replaces himself with exploding KBs, create Bunshins and genjutsu Jiraiya's summons, if any.

Jiraiya is a very powerful shinobi, but when gangbanged as such, he wouldn't be able to survive.
I understand that he is possibly and most probably stronger than Itachi alone, but 2 Pains alogside Itachi would get him killed.

& Shrike enters the fight. I didn't want Itachi close to Jiraiya in my strategy but Shrike does bring up good points in his post. Bringing back genjutsu to immobilize MA/PA (which also removes toad song) was genius. I'd like to see what you guys have to counter this? Intense pressure from multiple summons combined with Itachi (with exploding clones & Ameratsu) & McFat on the ground makes up for some serious ass whooping.

I'm mostly gonna stay out of this since it seems to be directed at Namikaze, but I will just say this one piece...that 'zomg' speed, was with his hands and performing seals. I don't think that applies to every physical motion he makes as he has probably trained so much in the movement of his hands that it makes it impossible to follow. But physically moving around, fast yes, but not 'zomg' can't see him fast. That would just be assumption.

And even Kakashi said that his seal speed was that fast...never said his movement speed was.

That was my point. If Jiraiya never realizes he is making hand seals, he can hit an exploding KB easily. He wouldn't know when the real Itachi replaced himself with that KB.

Also, Itachi IS very fast. He uses Shushin the same way Sasuke does.

That did make me laugh. Seriously.

Jiraiya tries taijutsu on Itachi like he did on that Pain with long hair, and BAM, there he hugged an exploding KB! Such a waste no?

Any form of ninjutsu is absorbed. Itachi can Tsukuyomi not only Jiraiya, but one of the frogs is even better choice.
As Sasuke genjutsued Manda, I am sure a MS can affect Ma and Pa.

Amaterasu would be impossible to avoid due to the summons who would keep piling up against Jiraiya. He can be cornered easily overwhelmed with such number of opponents, not to mention that one of those opponents is a summoner who summons all kinds of animals and strange shit and one is a MS Uchiha.

Kakashi who has the Sharingan couldn't follow Itachi's speed, how can a non-Sharingan user? Therefore, Itachi easily replaces himself with exploding KBs, create Bunshins and genjutsu Jiraiya's summons, if any.

Jiraiya is a very powerful shinobi, but when gangbanged as such, he wouldn't be able to survive.
I understand that he is possibly and most probably stronger than Itachi alone, but 2 Pains alogside Itachi would get him killed.

First off all may i point out that kakashi did see itachi's movements but not fully because he used shuriken to distract him second kakashi is treated as a weakling in front of jiraiya don't even put him in this.

There are 2 frogs while itachi is tsukuyoming one he is already dead due to that jiraiya can use ultimate rasegan on him last i checked he doesn't move a muscle while using tsukuyomi.

The other frog and jiraiya will still be available to knock him the fuck out. Summmoer pain got owned with a strong of hair.

Jiraiya was smart enough to manuver around 3 pains with no blind spots 2 pains and itachi is easier since when he knocks one in the face they lose their sight meaning there only form of sight is through the other pein.

So let's see here itachi uses tsukuyomi on one frog nice while he is torturing it he gets layed out by UR,barabie gets owned with hair so all jiraiya is eft with is fatty who has no skill except to eat stuff.

He can always make that crazy powerful katon again distract fatty let's say he doesn't kill itachi just hits him to break tsuku itachi would be drained from the used thus making him poor in the eyes and thus being non able to counter effecentily. If those 2 frogs and jiraiya found a way to kill 3 pains this is itachi and 2 pains yeah it's a lot easier.

You keep assuming he can't find ways to get around attacks when he clearly did before,sorry but jiraiya wins.

As for amaterasu @vengeance what the hell kind of place is itachi flying on a bird and jiraiya in a place with no where to run or hide or seal up amaterasu were the fuk is this fight in a card board box. lol

No i assume this is in a open area such as a nice grassy field in which case same line as before dodge it the seal it.

Or get his ass in that frog barrier were pain got sliced up or pretend he is there by sending his bushinn in there quick.

But really once he takes out fat pein vision he then has to worry about itachi and the other dude a couple of bushinn Ultimate rasengans,super powerful katon a nice genjutsu song should do the job but once he takes out the other pein's vision is all he needs they are useless when he does since they can't see and no other pein to see the fight for them.

It turns into itachi vs jiraiya in which case jiraiya kills itachi.

How aboutt his fight

Kakashi vs sasuke and naruto post time skip

Match stipulations

Kakashi -with mks can use it 4 times and his chakra doesn't drain as quick as usual

sasuke and naruto have all their usual moves except naruto can't go kyuubi mode and sasuke can't use his seal.

I HAS ANOTHER FIGHT OMG OMG OMG!

Pretime skip (Valley of the End) Sasuke (can use CS2, but not for long, has his base Chidori and CS2 black Chidori...but not his 200 variations, and has his new 3 tomoe Sharingan and more katon) & (VOTE) Naruto (can go 1 tails, is very fast, a heavy hitter, has extended attacks, base Rasengan and Kyuubified Rasengan) vs Kisame. Location is a heavy, thick forest, full of trees and bushes.

Edit: Nami, that's not fair! >=[ Kakashi can use MS 4 times but Sasuke can't use CS and Naruto can't get Kyuubi juice?

Wow you're late Nami

As for amaterasu @vengeance what the hell kind of place is itachi flying on a bird and jiraiya in a place with no where to run or hide or seal up amaterasu were the fuk is this fight in a card board box. lol
Look at the range of Amaterasu before making stupid jokes like this. Itachi is above Jiraiya when he cast Amaterasu leaving no room to back up sense he can't travel underground & not enough time to run because he's already in Itachi line of sight. Anyway SMFox already fought my theory with a barrier. You're to late with this comment.

I HAS ANOTHER FIGHT OMG OMG OMG!

Pretime skip (Valley of the End) Sasuke (can use CS2, but not for long, has his base Chidori and CS2 black Chidori...but not his 200 variations, and has his new 3 tomoe Sharingan and more katon) & (VOTE) Naruto (can go 1 tails, is very fast, a heavy hitter, has extended attacks, base Rasengan and Kyuubified Rasengan) vs Kisame. Location is a heavy, thick forest, full of trees and bushes.

Edit: Nami, that's not fair! >=[ Kakashi can use MS 4 times but Sasuke can't use CS and Naruto can't get Kyuubi juice?
Ummm ok... sorry but I have to ask are serious? Kisame if he's at 100% would own these two brats.

You're also assuming that such a thing can be done as well...never have we ever seen a person actually perform a Kawarimi with another person or anything other than medium sized physical objects like the dreaded log.You know, that, we've never seen this person do this and that, doesn't mean they can't, simply because we've never seen them do it. =\

Just sayin'.

Edit: *slaps Vengeance* >=[

You know, that, we've never seen this person do this and that, doesn't mean they can't, simply because we've never seen them do it. =\

Just sayin'.

Edit: *slaps Vengeance* >=[


Yes but since you can't know if it's done or not it leaves room for it not to be done meaning you can't use that as defence like minato with tensei.

He def knows what it is if some anbu guy does but since he has never been shown in a recent fight or that fight i couldn't use it but then again you wrote your fight in a weird way i couldn't understand lol.

As for the kisame fight mikey please i agree 100% kisame would smack those kids nice and quick.

Ok my fight has changed same as before but sasuke can use cs1 and naruto can use kyuubi jucie.

Yes but since you can't know if it's done or not it leaves room for it not to be done meaning you can't use that as defence like minato with tensei.

He def knows what it is if some anbu guy does but since he has never been shown in a recent fight or that fight i couldn't use it but then again you wrote your fight in a weird way i couldn't understand lol.XD Don't bring up old news, that's over with.

As for the kisame fight mikey please i agree 100% kisame would smack those kids nice and quick.:( Well, no one really uses pretime skip characters anymore. Poor children.

SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

Ok my fight has changed same as before but sasuke can use cs1 and naruto can use kyuubi jucie.So Sasuke can partually transform? I'm not sure what advantage CS1 even gives Sasuke, since CS2 gives him offense, defense, and the ability to fly. =\

Nami, how 'bout this, Sasuke can only partially transform, and Naruto can only use 1 tail?

True enough...but if that's true, then why didn't they just Kwarimi with other enemy shinobi during the sound invasion...let them take the hit? o.O Or why didn't any shinobi do this in those major events when they were about to get hit with something...replace your enemy with yourself and let them take their own hits?

It has never been shown so it cannot be done if it could have been done you just named excellent scenario's for it to be done in and it wasn't done so until kishi shows it this thing is a null defence.

@mikey ok sasuke cs1 naruto 1 tail thats it thats how i will go and whatever i said about kakashi stays.

Edit: *slaps Vengeance* >=[

LOL ok fine I'll take it seriously. Kisame's sword can absorb visible chakra right? Meaning he could knock Naruto out of a 1 tailed state. Making Naruto completely useless for this fight. Now we have a 3 tomoe Sasuke with limited chakra & a new CS2 transformation which can't be held long. Compared to Kisame who took on 2 popular jounins & 2 chuinins at 30% chakra capacity. Sasuke's speed was equal to rock lees pre time skip. But Kisame fought a post Lee with Gai there (not even mentioning Neji & Tenten). Showing Kisame to be fully capable of handling people who excel at speed. Neither Sasuke nor Naruto were at Gai's level without gates in the VOTE fight. Sorry but they were only genin even if they happened to be exceptional.

I HAS ANOTHER FIGHT OMG OMG OMG!

Pretime skip (Valley of the End) Sasuke (can use CS2, but not for long, has his base Chidori and CS2 black Chidori...but not his 200 variations, and has his new 3 tomoe Sharingan and more katon) & (VOTE) Naruto (can go 1 tails, is very fast, a heavy hitter, has extended attacks, base Rasengan and Kyuubified Rasengan) vs Kisame. Location is a heavy, thick forest, full of trees and bushes.

Kisame would obliterate them.
He easily outlasts both, not to mention a chakra draining greatsword which absorbed Kyuubi chakra with ease.

First off all may i point out that kakashi did see itachi's movements but not fully because he used shuriken to distract him second kakashi is treated as a weakling in front of jiraiya don't even put him in this.

What makes you think Jiraiya wouldn't be distracted like Kakashi was? Because he is smarter? lol.
Kakashi isn't a weakling. He is considered a Hokage material by Tsunade.

There are 2 frogs while itachi is tsukuyoming one he is already dead due to that jiraiya can use ultimate rasegan on him last i checked he doesn't move a muscle while using tsukuyomi.

UR would be absorbed. Also, using Tsukuyomi lasts for a moment.

The other frog and jiraiya will still be available to knock him the fuck out. Summmoer pain got owned with a strong of hair.

Summoner Pain got owned? That was a replacement, if you remember. Also, he was alone. Lol @ mentioning that in this situation.

Jiraiya was smart enough to manuver around 3 pains with no blind spots 2 pains and itachi is easier since when he knocks one in the face they lose their sight meaning there only form of sight is through the other pein.

You say Jiraiya is smart enough to maneuver around 3 Pains. Where did we see that, exactly? That's right, nowhere. He escaped to the pipes to catch them off guard and genjutsu them with the song.
So, if the battle field is like you said, a forest, no hiding. Moreover, Itachi wouldn't run around like that long haired Pain did. He would Shunshin when needed.

So let's see here itachi uses tsukuyomi on one frog nice while he is torturing it he gets layed out by UR,barabie gets owned with hair so all jiraiya is eft with is fatty who has no skill except to eat stuff.

Jiraiya cannot use UR and hair at the same time, so your assumptions are biased. UR would get absorbed. And remember, whatever Jiraiya is doing and whomever he is attacking, he is constantly attacked by a legion of summons. So, yeah.

He can always make that crazy powerful katon again distract fatty let's say he doesn't kill itachi just hits him to break tsuku itachi would be drained from the used thus making him poor in the eyes and thus being non able to counter effecentily. If those 2 frogs and jiraiya found a way to kill 3 pains this is itachi and 2 pains yeah it's a lot easier.

Itachi can use 3 MSs a day before getting tired. Plus some jutsu.
I don't see how you explained that adding Itachi instead of one useless Pain is easier?

You keep assuming he can't find ways to get around attacks when he clearly did before,sorry but jiraiya wins.

Lol.

No i assume this is in a open area such as a nice grassy field in which case same line as before dodge it the seal it.

You said it.

Kisame would obliterate them.
He easily outlasts both, not to mention a chakra draining greatsword which absorbed Kyuubi chakra with ease.



What makes you think Jiraiya wouldn't be distracted like Kakashi was? Because he is smarter? lol.
Kakashi isn't a weakling. He is considered a Hokage material by Tsunade.



UR would be absorbed. Also, using Tsukuyomi lasts for a moment.



Summoner Pain got owned? That was a replacement, if you remember. Also, he was alone. Lol @ mentioning that in this situation.



You say Jiraiya is smart enough to maneuver around 3 Pains. Where did we see that, exactly? That's right, nowhere. He escaped to the pipes to catch them off guard and genjutsu them with the song.
So, if the battle field is like you said, a forest, no hiding. Moreover, Itachi wouldn't run around like that long haired Pain did. He would Shunshin when needed.



Jiraiya cannot use UR and hair at the same time, so your assumptions are biased. UR would get absorbed. And remember, whatever Jiraiya is doing and whomever he is attacking, he is constantly attacked by a legion of summons. So, yeah.



Itachi can use 3 MSs a day before getting tired. Plus some jutsu.
I don't see how you explained that adding Itachi instead of one useless Pain is easier?



Lol.



You said it.

the field i was talking about is the same as the one with kimimaru were there is a forest right there so jiraiya can escape there and do his shit so take this shrike everything i said lol just same place were kimi was fighting garra.

You're also assuming that such a thing can be done as well...never have we ever seen a person actually perform a Kawarimi with another person or anything other than medium sized physical objects like the dreaded log.

Have you read the battle between Itachi, Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai? D:

They all assumed it was the real Itachi. Then, one Itachi made an appearance behind Kaakshi. Stabs him. Kakashi is a MB. Then, the one who was supposed to be the real Itachi explodes to hell. No one noticed except Kakashi who was underwater then. Also, he noticed too late, he took damage from the explosion.

Okay? =)

I had this long post, but I deleted it. I'll say Naruto and Sasuke win this, and it's overkill.

I wonder if Kisame's sword ever gets fat from eating/drinking too much? I mean, you gotta remember, he might be able to drink the Kyuubi Juice, but that is also an unlimited supply of Juice...so he could just pull out more...and more...and more...Thus, the chakra drain would never really strain Naruto all that much.
Kisame drains the chakra once. Then cuts off Narutos arms & legs. Sasuke comes in with Chidori Kisame moves his sword to his back to absorb the attack then kicks Sasuke hard. Kisame then creates a water field for himself & goes into surfer mode. Naruto can't swin without arms & legs. Sasuke has no chose but to use CS2 & Kisame laughs. Kisame would be able to dodge Sasuke pretty easily when looking at his previous fight. Now comes shark clones. Lets say 10 sense he was at 30% chakra in the other fight. Not to mention lets say 5-10 more water clones. Sasuke is standing on water then what? Kisame clone army attack Sasuke with superior Taijutsu while the sharks attack from below & above Sasuke. Honestly these two kids don't stand a chance. Water beats Fire making Katon useless. All Sasuke has is lighting which in this fight is limited to a close range chidori.

Pfft! Well fine!

Valley of the End Naruto and Sasuke vs Kurenai! >.>

Valley of the End Naruto and Sasuke vs Kurenai

Hehehe... you really want these two fighters winning something I guess...

Kurenai uses genjutsu at a level superior to these two fighters. If allowed the time to execute two genjutsu Kurenai would win. Though sense its a two on one thats a rather hard point to prove. As one fighter could attack her while she's casting a genjutsu to prevent the tree o death via kuni throat slitting strategy she uses. So if it's 2 on one the VOTE fighters win. One on one Kurenai kills Sasuke. However I'm not sure if Naruto's neck would regenerate the tissue to save his life. I'll leave that up to other people to decide.

Please naruto and konhamru can beat kurenai lmfaooo naruto 1 tails and sasuke cs2 will kill her.

There's gotta be someone they can fight without getting totally owned, and without them totally owning. =\

Please naruto and konhamru can beat kurenai lmfaooo naruto 1 tails and sasuke cs2 will kill her.

During VOTE Naruto & Sasuke were not known to possess anti-genjutsu tecs. Sorry but your statement is flawed.

There's gotta be someone they can fight without getting totally owned, and without them totally owning. =\
The way I'm picturing it is Kurenai would use genjutsu on Sasuke first. Thinking he's the bigger threat. But this would leave an opening in her defense. Even if she has enough time to kill Sasuke Naruto would have a clear opening on Kurenai to launch a killing strike.

During VOTE Naruto & Sasuke were not known to possess anti-genjutsu tecs. Sorry but your statement is flawed.

Yo get lost lmfaoooo j/p

Ok let's see naruto get's caught sasuke noticed it katon fire ball jutsu kurenai moves losing her concentration naruto awakes sasuke can see the flow of chakra so he will know it's genjutsu.

Then naruto's chakra moves itself unless kurenai is fast she is screwed ssince she doesn't have 3 tome sharingan like sasuke.

Sasuke is able to fly naruto can use 1,00 clones or in this case 2 or even 3 thousand sasuke uses fire style naruto uses his chakra to grab kurenai and throw her around like a rag doll.

Sasuke uses chdiori she counters naruto from the side rasengan kyuubi style bye bye kurenai.

So sorry your post is flawed.

Vengeance, I could have sworn one of the main attributes to the 3 tomoe Sharingan was being able to see through genjutsu. :p

Yo get lost lmfaoooo j/p

Ok let's see naruto get's caught sasuke noticed it katon fire ball jutsu kurenai moves losing her concentration naruto awakes sasuke can see the flow of chakra so he will know it's genjutsu.

Then naruto's chakra moves itself unless kurenai is fast she is screwed ssince she doesn't have 3 tome sharingan like sasuke.

Sasuke is able to fly naruto can use 1,00 clones or in this case 2 or even 3 thousand sasuke uses fire style naruto uses his chakra to grab kurenai and throw her around like a rag doll.

Sasuke uses chdiori she counters naruto from the side rasengan kyuubi style bye bye kurenai.

So sorry your post is flawed.
Your statement was flawed due to a lack of content. If you're going to debate with people you mite want to actually add something to it instead of just saying they'll win. Give reasons why they'd win or lose. You didn't do that in your other post which is why its seriously flawed. This however is a better post. You obviously aren't reading my post because I tend to agree that she wouldn't be able to kill both at the same time. But throwing Konohamaru into this is just stupid Nami.

Vengeance, I could have sworn one of the main attributes to the 3 tomoe Sharingan was being able to see through genjutsu. :p

Actually sasuke saw throw genjutsu with the 2 tome as well in the first part were those chunnins change the level of the floor.

And a two tome can see disrupted chakra flow like in kakashi gaiden with rin.

Vengeance, I could have sworn one of the main attributes to the 3 tomoe Sharingan was being able to see through genjutsu. :p
Yes however Kuri is a jounin who's specialty is genjutsu. Sasuke really hasn't shown anti-genjutsu tactics at a jounin level before the time skip. Which is why I think he wouldn't be able to brake hers. Also its not like we're giving him time to master 3 tomoe anyway right? This is Sasuke at VOTE he just gained this ability.

Yes however Kuri is a jounin who's specialty is genjutsu. Sasuke really hasn't shown anti-genjutsu tactics at a jounin level before the time skip. Which is why I think he wouldn't be able to brake hers.

He already saw through genjutsu once in part one with 2 tome sharingan what makes you think he can't do it again with 3 tomes.

Yes however Kuri is a jounin who's specialty is genjutsu. Sasuke really hasn't shown anti-genjutsu tactics at a jounin level before the time skip. Which is why I think he wouldn't be able to brake hers.
Yes, but how many times has Sasuke been in situations where he's had a Sharingan capable of seeing through genjutsu, against genjutsu specialising Jounins, pretime skip? Not many, if at all. Fact is, Sasuke, by the end of part 1, was capable of seeing through genjutsu.

He already saw through genjutsu once in part one with 2 tome sharingan what makes you think he can't do it again with 3 tomes.

genjutsu of chiunins who don't specialize in gejutsu if I'm not mistaken. What were there names again? Kuri is a jounin who specializes in genjutsu. There is a difference in ability here.

Edit: I really hope you guys aren't trying to imply that Sasuke was at a genjutsu level similar to Itachi in VOTE? Itachi even got caught in her genjutsu though he did reverse it. Sasuke's genjutsu ability was not at that high a level during VOTE. So he would get caught. Question is can he counter it. I'm saying no not without help.

genjutsu of chiunins who don't specialize in gejutsu if I'm not mistaken. What were there names again? Kuri is a jounin who specializes in genjutsu. There is a difference in ability here.

Yet she had nothing on itachi yes i am stupid to comapre sasuke with itachi in part one lol.

But still he can see chakra flow and can always help naruto out.

Yet she had nothing on itachi yes i am stupid to comapre sasuke with itachi in part one lol.

But still he can see chakra flow and can always help naruto out.
She caught Itachi in her genjutsu. Itachi simply reversed it. Are you implying that Sasuke was at a similar level in genjutsu to Itachi during VOTE?

Edit: oo I hope you didn't leave Nami. Counter me dammit lol.

Vengeance, Kurenai was said to be Konoha's genjutsu specialist, yet we've only seen one thing from her, which was easily countered. Saying Jounin level genjutsu doesn't mean much when she hasn't shown Jounin level genjutsu. :p

Vengeance, Kurenai was said to be Konoha's genjutsu specialist, yet we've only seen one thing from her, which was easily countered. Saying Jounin level genjutsu doesn't mean much when she hasn't shown Jounin level genjutsu. :p
Countered by Itachi the genjutsu god of Naruto. I'll ask you this again. Are you comparing Itachi to VOTE Sasuke in terms of genjutsu ability? Are you not trying to imply that just because Itachi could reverse it surely Sasuke would right? Because he has 3 dots? I wana here you say it before I drop this question.

Countered by Itachi the genjutsu god of Naruto. I'll ask you this again. Are you comparing Itachi to VOTE Sasuke in terms of genjutsu ability?
God of genjutsu who's having his Godly genjutsu broken out of by the slightly older version of the person we're speaking of now. :p

God of genjutsu who's having his Godly genjutsu broken out of by the slightly older version of the person we're speaking of now. :p
I very mute point Mikey & you know it. Stop avoiding the question hehehe

She caught Itachi in her genjutsu. Itachi simply reversed it. Are you implying that Sasuke was at a similar level in genjutsu to Itachi during VOTE?

Edit: oo I hope you didn't leave Nami. Counter me dammit lol.

No i am not implying it i said so myself lol but like i said he can see chakra flow of naruto and can touch him and he wakes up.

And still he can notice a genjutsu from not a genjutsu.

chrak flow is enough for sasuke to help naruto out.

No i am not implying it i said so myself lol but like i said he can see chakra flow of naruto and can touch him and he wakes up.

And still he can notice a genjutsu from not a genjutsu.
Yes this I agree with as its a two on one battle. In terms of Naruto braking it for Sasuke. :) However does Naruto have this knowledge at this point? No he doesn't. Naruto only learned how to brake genjutsu while training with Jiraiya. That still doesn't mean Naruto couldn't simply kill Kuri while Sasuke is caught in a genjutsu. Which is what I see happening.

I very mute point Mikey & you know it. Stop avoiding the question hehehe
This is what I'm saying. Sasuke, by the end of part 1, had a 3 tomoe Sharingan. If a 2 tomoe Sharingan can see through genjutsu, then he's better with 3, add to that, the fact that CS2 increases his abilities. And as I said, Kurenai has yet to show anything Jounin level. Show me where she has. :) Find me something that shows factual information on the genjutsu she used, being Jounin level.

Yes this I agree with as its a two on one battle. In terms of Naruto braking it for Sasuke. :) However does Naruto have this knowledge at this point? No he doesn't

Naruto can see when sasuke is acting weird so he will go over to see what's going on touch him and bam.

Then when naruto summons gamabuntan the fight is over with.


yes mikey makes a good point the genjutsu kurenai used tree thing was B rank.

Oh right, I forgot Naruto can summon Gamabunta to step on Kurenai.

Oh right, I forgot Naruto can summon Gamabunta to step on Kurenai.

Or use suiton to kill her damn buntan is a pimp he is the only summon able to use ninjutsu.

Kurenai wins. Naruto back then didn't even know how to break out of genjutsu, and Sasuke wasn't shown to either (he avoided falling under Kabuto's during the Chuunin exams because it was only cast on the audience, and it was not shown that he had such a power with his sharingan yet). as Kabuto demonstrated, mass genjutsu is possible, so she uses it on both at the same time before they can bring otu either Kyuubi or curse seal, and put them to sleep or whatever, then kill them. Case closed.

If you want one they'd have trouble with but beat, you could but them up against Tayuya or Sakon/Ukon. XD

Kidoumaru they'd get owned, but Jirobou they'd murder, sot he other two seem fair.

And Vengeance, don't give me a 'if Sasuke can genjutsu Manda, then Kurenai can genjutsu Bunta'. That won't work here.

This is what I'm saying. Sasuke, by the end of part 1, had a 3 tomoe Sharingan. If a 2 tomoe Sharingan can see through genjutsu, then he's better with 3, add to that, the fact that CS2 increases his abilities. And as I said, Kurenai has yet to show anything Jounin level. Show me where she has. :) Find me something that shows factual information on the genjutsu she used, being Jounin level.
Fact is she caught Itachi with it right? Itachi did reverse the genjutsu. But this is Itachi we're talking about not VOTE Sasuke. So unless you're implying that Sasuke was at a level in genjutsu similar to Itachi there's no point in bringing up her genjutsu being broken. So unless you openly admit that this is what you're trying to imply, I will not agree with your thinking in how Sasuke should be able to brake Kuri's genjutsu simply because he has 3 dots.

Naruto can see when sasuke is acting weird so he will go over to see what's going on touch him and bam.

Then when naruto summons gamabuntan the fight is over with.


yes mikey makes a good point the genjutsu kurenai used tree thing was B rank.
You missed part of that post re-read it. Naruto doesn't have the knowledge required to brake Sasuke from a genjutsu.

And Vengeance, don't give me a 'if Sasuke can genjutsu Manda, then Kurenai can genjutsu Bunta'. That won't work here.

Yes because kureani doesn't have eye genjutsu which makes relams lol and buntan isn't an idiot naruto will tell him she is a genjutsu specialist.

@V all you gotta do is touch sasuke i think naruto will see sasuke standing there like a ghost he will go over and say "heyy you awake touh him and bam he is back:

And if shikamaru can break genjutsu sasuke can too and shika broke from temple of nirvana A rank genjutsu,and i am sure sasuke has knowledge of hot to break genjutsuif he was able to spot it already and 3 tomes will help him break it too.

Fact is she caught Itachi with it right? Itachi did reverse the genjutsu. But this is Itachi we're talking about not VOTE Sasuke. So unless you're implying that Sasuke was at a level in genjutsu similar to Itachi there's no point in bringing up her genjutsu being broken. So in short unless you openly admit that this is what you're trying to imply I will not agree with your thinking in how Sasuke sould be able to brake Kuri's genjutsu simply because he has 3 dots.


You missed part of that post re-read it. Naruto doesn't have the knowledge required to brake Sasuke from a genjutsu.
Naruto doesn't need to break Sasuke from it, since he has a three tomoe Sharingan.

Look, you're arguing against a fact Kishi placed in himself. :) 3 tomoe Sharingan > what Kurenai showed. I'm not saying Sasuke at the Valley was at Itachi's level, but Itachi reversed what she did easily. Sasuke would reverse or see through it also, maybe not as easily, but he would.

Naruto doesn't need to break Sasuke from it, since he has a three tomoe Sharingan.

Look, you're arguing against a fact Kishi placed in himself. :) 3 tomoe Sharingan > what Kurenai showed. I'm not saying Sasuke at the Valley was at Itachi's level, but Itachi reversed what she did easily. Sasuke would reverse or see through it also, maybe not as easily, but he would.

Actually i doubt he would reverse it ince that's a high ability he could have had but yes 100000000000000000000000005 he would se thats its a genjutsu.

Naruto doesn't need to break Sasuke from it, since he has a three tomoe Sharingan.

Look, you're arguing against a fact Kishi placed in himself. :) 3 tomoe Sharingan > what Kurenai showed. I'm not saying Sasuke at the Valley was at Itachi's level, but Itachi reversed what she did easily. Sasuke would reverse or see through it also, maybe not as easily, but he would.

Sasuke never showed ability to do this before or during VOTE. Sasuke just gained 3 dots & hasn't had time to experiment with it in this fight. Limiting his genjutsu reversal ability. We're just going back & forth at this point.

Sasuke never showed ability to do this before or during VOTE. Sasuke just gained 3 dots & hasn't had time to experiment with it in this fight. Limiting his genjutsu reversal ability. We're just going back & forth at this point.Indeed. Neither of us will budge, even though we both know I'm right. :D Also, Sasuke was unable to see muscle movement before getting 3 tomoe Sharingan, yet when he got it, he knew how to use that feature instantly, and used it well. It's a safe assumption he'd know how to see through genjutsu when after he got the three tomoe Sharingan.

Sasuke never showed ability to do this before or during VOTE. Sasuke just gained 3 dots & hasn't had time to experiment with it in this fight. Limiting his genjutsu reversal ability. We're just going back & forth at this point.

I agree reversal is a high ability sasuke cannot do it pre time skip mikey maybe now he can but not before.

But V either way sasuke can see a genjutsu if he is caught in it and break it if shika had knowledge of how to do it sasuke has it to because he already knew what genjutsu was in part one and being from the uchiha clan i am sure he knws things especially in the academy you are taught how to break one.

Also i know some crazy shit to back me up next post you will see.



edit" remember kabuto casted temple of nirvana genjutsu on the whole place sasuke wasn't affected he was just like wtf is this and then he relazied.

Indeed. Neither of us will budge, even though we both know I'm right. :D Also, Sasuke was unable to see muscle movement before getting 3 tomoe Sharingan, yet when he got it, he knew how to use that feature instantly, and used it well. It's a safe assumption he'd know how to see through genjutsu when after he got the three tomoe Sharingan.
Key word being assumption. It was never shown. Also predicting body movement is a base skill of the Sharingan. Genjutsu being jutsu that can be preformed by use of Sharingan. It makes sense for Sasuke to have the natural ability to predict body movement quicker sense this was already a part of his abilities. But to say it automatically gave Sasuke the edge in genjutsu against a junion who specializes in genjutsu is an assumption. & Mikey I think you're wrong :p

Um, we also seem to be ignoring 1 tailed Naruto. :p While Kurenai is trying to get her genjutstu to affect Sasuke, Naruto would be providing the offense and tear her up, physically. She tries to defend, and in comes CS2 Sasuke with a black Chidori, or base Sasuke with base Chidori.

Um, we also seem to be ignoring 1 tailed Naruto. :p While Kurenai is trying to get her genjutstu to affect Sasuke, Naruto would be providing the offense and tear her up, physically. She tries to defend, and in comes CS2 Sasuke with a black Chidori, or base Sasuke with base Chidori.
Don't throw that knuckle head back into this. My first post clearly stated they'd win because its a two on one :p

It's a simple case. Sayign Sasuke can see through Genjutsu automatically with 3 tomoe is like saying a Byakugan user can automatically see through it. It would take training. there was no proof of Sasuke seeing through genjutsu at all pre-TS with his Sharingan, and it didn't say it was automatic with a just-learned 3 tomoe. Her genjutsu can trap hands, such as the one she used on Itachi, so summoning Bunta is out of the question, and as demonstrated, you can use genjutsu on more than one person, so having one person wake the other out of it is also null. As a genjutsu specialist, she would have to have more than one, just like Kakashi is said to have 1000+ jutsu, but we haven't seen them all. Also, activating that simple B-Rank took little time, so niether Naruto or Sasuke would really get to react. She could catch them and kill them both before they did anything. 'Nuf said.

And Nami, it's not as simple as Sasuke beign able to because he learned it in the academy, was an Uchiha, and could because Shikamaru could.

Naruto didn't know how, and he was in the academy for 3 repeated years! Thus not taught in the academy. As an Uchiha, show me they teach how to counter genjutsu in the clan. You can't, it's an assumption. Null. And Shikamaru was a genius. He knew how to break it along with Sakura, who was taught by Kakashi. you can't assume he knew just because Shikamaru knew, so that is null as well. He and Gaara weren't effected by the genjutsu at all. He only noticed something was going on with the audience when they fell asleep. As far as we know, Kabuto's genjutsu only effected the audience. Not the competitiors booth, the Hokage's tower, or the field.

Also predicting body movement is a base skill of the Sharingan. Genjutsu being jutsu that can be preformed by use of Sharingan. It makes sense for Sasuke to have the natural ability to predict body movement quicker sense this was already a part of his abilities. But to say it automatically gave Sasuke the edge in genjutsu against a junion who specializes in genjutsu is an assumption. & Mikey I think you're wrong :p

A higher mastery of the Sharingan can be seen in the creation of a new tomoe in the eye, with three tomoe being the typical highest form of the eye.Sasuke mastered Sharingan at that point. You're telling me some low level genjutsu Kurenai used, and failed with against Itachi, is going to do much against a mastered Sharingan?

Two tomoe will also allow the ninja to pierce Genjutsu and see the surrounding reality for what it really is.Hm. Sasuke has 3, sounds like Sasuke would be at the advantage.

Lastly...

An eye containing three tomoe will allow the ninja to see the image of an attacker’s next move from the slightest muscle tension in their body.No, muscle predicting isn't a base feature for an Uchiha. It's gained after getting a 3 tomoe Sharingan, which also means they've mastered the Sharingan itself.

Don't throw that knuckle head back into this. My first post clearly stated they'd win because its a two on one :pYes, they win. I know this. :D And so do you.

Sasuke mastered Sharingan at that point. You're telling me some low level genjutsu Kurenai used, and failed with against Itachi, is going to do much against a mastered Sharingan?
Mastered please if Sasuke mastered sharingan as you claimed he wouldn't of needed training from Orochimaru. He wouldn't of had a draw in VOTE. He also would have simply went into Naruto's mind & supress Kyuubi then. Did he do this no. Sasuke did not master anything during VOTE. Did Sasuke use any type of genjutsu on Naruto after gaining 3 dots no. He showed no signs on genjutsu improvement during VOTE.

Hm. Sasuke has 3, sounds like Sasuke would be at the advantage.

Lastly...

No, muscle predicting isn't a base feature for an Uchiha. It's gained after getting a 3 tomoe Sharingan, which also means they've mastered the Sharingan itself.
O I'm sorry i thought Sasuke being able to see Haku's movement was a sign of enhanced sight of a persons body movement. My mistake Sharingan never granted him enhanced sight at lower levels. (sarcasm)

Mastered please if Sasuke mastered sharingan as you claimed he wouldn't of needed training from Orochimaru. He wouldn't of had a draw in VOTE. He also would have simply went into Naruto's mind & supress Kyuubi then. Did he do this no. Sasuke did not master anything during VOTE.Hey, if you don't like it, take it up with Kishi, not me. :) Leafninja gets their information from Kishi's databook, so it's fact.

O I'm sorry i though Sasuke being able to see Haku's movement was a sign of enhanced sight of a persons body movement. My mistake Sharingan never granted him enhanced sight at lower levels. (sarcasm)Read above.

Hey, if you don't like it, take it up with Kishi, not me. :) Leafninja gets their information from Kishi's databook, so it's fact.

Read above.

*Sighs* Just because Sasuke had 3 dots does not mean he mastered sharingan. As Sasuke's ability with his Sharingan is clearly superior post timeskip when compared to pre-timeskip VOTE. There is no prof you can show me that will prove that Sasuke had the same genjutsu ability during VOTE that he does now. Which shows his Sharingan did get stronger during the 2 1/2 years of training. Showing that Sasuke was no Sharingan master during VOTE because his abilities have obviously improved.

He mastered Sharingan, meaning he's gotten it to the peak, before MS. Do you get it now? o_O

Mikey i must agree just cause sasuke got 3 dots don't mean shit a fully mastered sharingan is what sasuke has now able to cast genjutsu through eye and easily see through genjutsu and break it.

Pre timse skip sasuke didn't show any of these things.

Hey, I'm going by Kishi's own information here. Argue that with him. *shrug* Obviously, Kishi didn't mean mastered, as in has super Sharingan abilities, he meant mastered, as in reached Sharingan's peak form pre-MS.

He mastered Sharingan, meaning he's gotten it to the peak, before MS. Do you get it now? o_O
There is still room to grow do you not get that? Just because he had the base abilities of a 3 dot Sharingan does not mean he could automatically preform all the abilities that come with it. Even having the power itself does not make you a master. Do you not understand that? With 3 dots Sasuke could take his abilities further but he must first train. Do you not understand that?

There is still room to grow do you not get that?Did I say there wasn't room for improvement?

Just because he had the base abilities of a 3 dot Sharingan does not mean he could automatically preform all the abilities that come with it.I didn't say he could. ;) A 3 tomoe Sharingan can predict muscle movements and see through genjutsu.

Even having the power itself does not make you a master.Where did I say that his early 3 tomoe Sharingan could use the same abilities he's shown now? I think you're mistaking mastered for one thing, when it was meant for another.

Do you not understand that? With 3 dots Sasuke could take his abilities further but he must first train. Do you not understand that?With 3 dots, he was able to predict muscle movement. No where was it said 2 tomoe Sharingan was able to predict movements, yet when he got 3 tomoes, he was able to see muscle movements and predict them clearly. You're implying he'd need training for something like that also? Because he was able to use that feature back then without training his 3 tomoe Sharingan. Who's to say he can't see through genjutsu with his 3 tomoe Sharingan back then?

Did I say there wasn't room for improvement?

I didn't say he could. ;) A 3 tomoe Sharingan can predict muscle movements and see through genjutsu.

Where did I say that his early 3 tomoe Sharingan could use the same abilities he's shown now? I think you're mistaking mastered for one thing, when it was meant for another.

With 3 dots, he was able to predict muscle movement. No where was it said 2 tomoe Sharingan was able to predict movements, yet when he got 3 tomoes, he was able to see muscle movements and predict them clearly. You're implying he'd need training for something like that also? Because he was able to use that feature back then without training his 3 tomoe Sharingan. Who's to say he can't see through genjutsu with his 3 tomoe Sharingan back then?

Why don't you read my post on what a fully mastered 3 tome does before you guys fight over it again.

With 3 dots, he was able to predict muscle movement. No where was it said 2 tomoe Sharingan was able to predict movements, yet when he got 3 tomoes, he was able to see muscle movements and predict them clearly. You're implying he'd need training for something like that also? Because he was able to use that feature back then without training his 3 tomoe Sharingan. Who's to say he can't see through genjutsu with his 3 tomoe Sharingan back then?
*Sighs* when Sasuke first gained sharingan it granted him enhanced sight yes? When he got 3 dots this same sight was boosted. Showing its a base skill of the Sharingan. Genjutsu however is not. It must be learned along with reversals. Even if Sasuke could see the genjutsu does not mean he'll automatically know how to counter it. Itachi after all was caught by Kuri's genjutsu. Which means the same would happen to Sasuke. Again I'll say this Sasuke was not a genjutsu master in VOTE. Itachi however was when he went up against Kuri yet he still got caught. Anyway I'm about done as we're just repeating. Post a new fight this is boring me.

Mikey i must agree just cause sasuke got 3 dots don't mean shit a fully mastered sharingan is what sasuke has now able to cast genjutsu through eye and easily see through genjutsu and break it.

Pre timse skip sasuke didn't show any of these things.

Yay, my internet connection went out and my post was lost. >=[

I'll just say this, because this is getting no where for either of us, Vengeance. When I said mastered, I didn't say he mastered (had access to all Sharingan abilities). He mastered it, meaning he got the 3 tomoe Sharingan, which is the peak form of the Sharingan pre-MS. So yes, he was able to predict muscle movement, and see through genjutsu. He was able to predict movement when he got his 3 tomoe Sharingan, but he didn't train for it. So why would he need to train to be able to see through genjutsu?

Not going to answer you again Mikey as we're both just repeating. Also no this does not mean your right or that I'm wrong. I already made my case so I'm leaving it as a difference of opinion. If you want an answer to your last question look back on some of my previous post. Have a nice day Mikey I'm going to get something to eat.

Not going to answer you again Mikey as we're both just repeating. Also no this does not mean your right or that I'm wrong. I already made my case so I'm leaving it as a difference of opinion. If you want an answer to your last question look back on some of my previous post. Have a nice day Mikey I'm going to get something to eat.
So you answered why Sasuke was able to predict movement once he got 3 tomoe Sharingan and needed no training, but would need training to see through genjutsu, even though he needed no training for another 3 tomoe feature? :p

Yeah, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

So you answered why Sasuke was able to predict movement once he got 3 tomoe Sharingan and needed no training, but would need training to see through genjutsu, even though he needed no training for another 3 tomoe feature? :p

Yeah, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Yes I did. Because its a base ability of the sharingan. The same way he had enhanced sight when first getting the sharingan. This same sight was just enhanced further at 3 dots. Sasuke showed no signs of being a genjutsu master with 3 dots during VOTE. Which shows he had to train for these abilities. I'm hungry brb in like 10-15 minutes.

I don't get why you say it's a base Sharingan ability when Kishi's own information says otherwise.

I don't get why you say it's a base Sharingan ability when Kishi's own information says otherwise.

What would you call Sasuke not being able to track Haku's movement without sharingan but once he gained it he was able to track him? Is this not enhanced sight? An ability Sasuke gained right after gaining sharingan. Now when Sasuke gained 3 dots this same sight & ability to predict movement was enhanced. Which is why I'm calling it a base/starter ability. Something all who possess sharingan at that level could use. But physical movement has nothing to do with genjutsu ability. For the ending statements about genjutsu look at my previous post.

Ugh, now I really do feel like I'm repeating myself. Kishi's words vs yours. Sorry. =\

Alright, new fight lol.

Kimimaro without Bone AIDS, vs Pretime skip Kakashi (less stamina/chakra, and no MS). The location is on a grassy field. But there are cactus around. :O

Simply, Kimi without the bone AIDS would beat Kakashi unless he used MS, so yeah....It's not a contest, and I'm not going to go into detail unless I actually need to.

Alright, new fight lol.

Kimimaro without Bone AIDS, vs Pretime skip Kakashi (less stamina/chakra, and no MS). The location is on a grassy field. But there are cactus around. :O
LMAO @ bone aids. I'm guessing you mean a healthy Kimi...

Kimi has this unbreakable bone that was broken by diamond sand... Kakashi knows mid-level forms of genjutsu. Is it possible for Kakashi to trap Kimi in a genjutsu? At least long enough to stun Kimi where Kakashi could then Raikiri from behind ripping out Kimi's heart? If genjutsu is out of this equation...

Kakashi could predict Kimi's movement using Sharingan. Giving him an edge in avoiding attacks. Kakashi should also be faster/stronger then Lee with no gates. Lee did fairly well against Kimi in the early fight. So now we have Kakashi with the aid of Sharingan plus 3 gates(correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading that he could active 3). Kakashi without gates should be able to handle a normal Kimi in hand to hand combat. Kakashi at 3 gates should be able to handle CS1 Kimi. But thats were Kakashi's advantage ends. At CS2 Kimi is one hell of a fighter. Strong enough to brake out of Gaaras sand & also showed considerable speeds at this level. Not to mention that last jutsu he used... Clones would do Kakashi no good here in my opinion. Traveling underground however is a good way for Kakashi to avoid close range attacks from a CS2 Kimi. But there's no escaping that last dance of Kimi's. Water jutsu at Kakashi's level wouldn't do much to a CS2 Kimi. Kakashi's only hope is to get in close enough to pierce Kimi's heart with Raikiri. Kakashi would need to land that blow to Kimi's heart before Kimi uses his last dance in order to win.

My personal winner: Kakashi if he can stun Kimi with genjutsu; otherwise Kimi wins.

I'll say that Kakashi would win if he can land the MS jutsu on Kimimaro, but he can't, then he'll be in some trouble.

I'll say that Kakashi would win if he can land the MS jutsu on Kimimaro, but he can't, then he'll be in some trouble.
Unfortunately it's a pre-timeskip Kakashi in this fight :(

Unfortunately it's a pre-timeskip Kakashi in this fight :(

In that case, Kakashi would still win, but it won't be easy at all as he'll have to pull out the jutsus that he's copied during his shinobi life and break more gates.

In that case, Kakashi would still win, but it won't be easy at all as he'll have to pull out the jutsus that he's copied during his shinobi life and break more gates.

Hmmm... I can't believe I forgot about this. Kakashi's method for beating Zabuza. Hidden mist + ninja hound summoning. Then Kakashi travels with the dogs underground. The dogs grab Kimi while Kakashi comes up from behind. Kimi kills all dogs with his bone manipulation. However this gives Kakashi time to land a Raikiri. Kakashi wins yay :D

I don't think so. Kimi could infinitely grow his bones at a moment's notice. Even if Kakashi got to Raikiri him, he had good enough sense and reaction time with drunken lee to activate his bones. I think he could grow them to the point where reaching his actual body with raikiri would be out of the question. Imagine a bully holding a little kid out while that little kid flings his arms to try to hit the bully, but is hitting air because the bully's arms are longer. Now imagine Sasuke when he tried to hit Gaara's sand orb. one time he almost got killed by the sand spikes that came out of it. Now imagine Kimi doing that with his bones, and trapping/piercing Kakashi's arms with his bones before it reached him. This would render Raikiri, Kakashi's only form of defeating Kimi, useless.

Kakashi would beat he isn't some push over he is smart as hell he will find ways to get around his bones.

Mikey get that shit out of your sig you know i didn't mean it :(

I don't think so. Kimi could infinitely grow his bones at a moment's notice. Even if Kakashi got to Raikiri him, he had good enough sense and reaction time with drunken lee to activate his bones. I think he could grow them to the point where reaching his actual body with raikiri would be out of the question. Imagine a bully holding a little kid out while that little kid flings his arms to try to hit the bully, but is hitting air because the bully's arms are longer. Now imagine Sasuke when he tried to hit Gaara's sand orb. one time he almost got killed by the sand spikes that came out of it. Now imagine Kimi doing that with his bones, and trapping/piercing Kakashi's arms with his bones before it reached him. This would render Raikiri, Kakashi's only form of defeating Kimi, useless.
Ok my thing is that Raikiri would be able to brake Kimi's bones with ease. With hidden mist up Kimi won't be able to see. While Kimi is busy killing the dogs he'll be blind sided by Kakashi. I guess if Kimi wants to he could use his last dance right when the dogs strike. But damn that would kill Kakashi lol. Kakshi's only option is to not allow Kimi time to get to CS2. Play it safe let Kimi think he has the advantage over him. Allow Kimi to cut Kakashi acouple of times while Kimi is still in normal form. Then when Kimi is overconfident & goes CS1 Kakashi uses the Zabuza method. Allowing no time for Kimi to transform into CS2 to use his last dance.

Neji vs frog snake and slug boss remember the sannins pets..

remeber neji kill u in ONE hit it go strait to ur lung and u die

Neji vs frog snake and slug boss remember the sannins pets..

remeber neji kill u in ONE hit it go strait to ur lung and u die
hehe he haah HAHAhahAAHAHAa :D

Damn I love Neji but come on.... We're talking about Bunta who knows fricking jutsu, Manda is just badass & fought on equal ground with Bunta & Katsuyu, & Katsuyu who spits up acid & can brake apart into over 1000 mini-me's that also spit acid. Sorry but there isn't much Neji would be able to do. Bunta alone would lay waste to Neji using over sized jutsu or just by sitting on him. Manda would eat him. Katsuyu would turn him to mush with Acid.... But I'm more then willing to listen to your argument on how Neji is going to be able to pull this off.

^ Yea...shows what u know.

Neji need 4 jonin to stop him only as genin
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume9.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12541

see neji not even try...if he try all the jonin get blown out of konowhore

remeber....neji is now jonin....1 hit to ur lung and u die....snakes have weak lung so they die.....frog only jump around...and the slug is too slow for neji

Neji win. always.

^ Yea...shows what u know.

Neji need 4 jonin to stop him only as genin
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume9.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12541

see neji not even try...if he try all the jonin get blown out of konowhore

remeber....neji is now jonin....1 hit to ur lung and u die....snakes have weak lung so they die.....frog only jump around...and the slug is too slow for neji

Neji win. always.
I hope you're not implying that a pre-time skip Neji would be able to handle all of those fighters in a one on one situation are you? I mean really is that what you're trying to imply? I can't take it seriously which is why I have to ask. That is a shot of pre-timeskip Neji for crying out loud...

Kakashi: User of the elements Doton, Raiton, & Suiton. Konohas top jounin. Nicknamed the copy ninja for using his Sharingan to steal or adapt techniques from enemy shinobi. In a one on one fight against pre-timeskip Neji do you honestly think Neji would win?

Gai: Another elite jounin & self proclaimed rival of Kakashi. Gai is Neji's teacher & excels in taijutsu. Neji at that point is no match for Gai when it comes to speed, power, endurance, or combat ability. I'm not even going to mention gates.

Kurenai: Yet another of the elite 4 jounin that we were shown in part 1. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist who is also proficient in seal knowledge, taijutsu, speed, & is highly intelligent according to data books. I doubt Neji could handle such a well rounded ninja as a genin. Though you could argue a point on how Neji is immune to genjutsu because of Byakugan. But this has never been proven or disproved.

Gekkou Hayate: Not much is known about him other then he's a Special Jounin who was killed by Baki who is an elite jounin of the sand. I'll give this kill to you for free. You know what I changed my mind I will not give this kill to you ether. Notice in the same picture you just showed me Hayate is stoping Neji with his finger. Hayate stood right in front of Neji's attack showing no fear. Even though the others are also restraining Neji that doesn't discredit Hayate at all. So yeah I'll say it Hayate would also f*** up Neji in that part of the story.

Edit: Anyway please don't respond to this post again & just drop it. You're making me bash one of my favorite characters.

I hope you're not implying that a pre-time skip Neji would be able to handle all of those fighters in a one on one situation are you? I mean really is that what you're trying to imply? I can't take it seriously which is why I have to ask. That is a shot of pre-timeskip Neji for crying out loud...
blah blah

Kakashi: User of the elements Doton, Raiton, & Suiton. Konohas top jounin. Nicknamed the copy ninja for using his Sharingan to steal or adapt techniques from enemy shinobi. In a one on one fight against pre-timeskip Neji do you honestly think Neji would win?
sharingan cum from bakugun so bakugun > sharingan

neji is bijuu level rite now...

Gai: Another elite jounin & self proclaimed rival of Kakashi. Gai is Neji's teacher & excels in taijutsu. Neji at that point is no match for Gai when it comes to speed, power, endurance, or combat ability. I'm not even going to mention gates.
no gai lose becaus he say neji attack is better than his and lee combined
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume9.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12514

see lee say 1 touch and u die and gai say they have to break bone to win. neji touch u u die.

Kurenai: Yet another of the elite 4 jounin that we were shown in part 1. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist who is also proficient in seal knowledge, taijutsu, speed, & is highly intelligent according to data books. I doubt Neji could handle such a well rounded ninja as a genin. Though you could argue a point on how Neji is immune to genjutsu because of Byakugan. But this has never been proven or disproved.
whos this? is she preggars? neji touch her and her baby die. :)

@Factory yo please refrain from running your mouth at least you won't embarrass yourself anymore you don't what the hell you are talking about and you are obviously a hard core fanboy.

Neji would be killed alone by any other plain snake summon or frog summon from orochimaru or jiraiya.

Those 4 jounins are you out of your mind you actually think all 4 of them can't beat neji gai would obliterate neji alone the secret to defeating a hyuuga lies within the HIGH SPEED COMBO those were kishi's written words. Now last i checked you<<<<<<<<<<<<kishi so quit talking.

Neji is bijju level right dude i am trying to hard not to flame you right now please stfu and gtfo this thread you don't know anything.

And you obviously do not read the manga sharingan i alot stronger then the byakugan so is rinnegan byakugan is the weakest dojutsu PERIOD yes that's right fanboy weakest.

Btw neji is a fuking loser compared to sasuke and naruto after the time skip so please just keep quiet you don't know anything you are new gtfo and stop making a f.... of yourself.

If you don't well just get ready to be put down by every other good poster here and you will be embarrassed.

@Namikaze85: Don't take this guy so seriously. He posted on another thread that Naeji and his clan would be able to beat all past Hokages and the Sannin each with the 9 Tails chakra inside of them . LOL

Clearly Neji fanboyism. :D

@Namikaze85: Don't take this guy so seriously. He posted on another thread that Naeji and his clan would be able to beat all past Hokages and the Sannin each with the 9 Tails chakra inside of them . LOL

Clearly Neji fanboyism. :D

Yeah i figured bro but really what the hell is he doing here he should get lost or something.

Yeah i figured bro but really what the hell is he doing here he should get lost or something.
LoL I liked how he totally ignored the Gekkou Hayate part of my post. Hehehe damn trolls at least its good for a laugh...

Sorry to ask this but I'm lost what character are we on right now?

There always seems to be Neji fanboys for some odd reason, why dont Naruto,Sasuke,Kakashi, Itachi, etc get any lovin?

Factory cracks me up, I hope hes not dead serious on what he says.^_^

There always seems to be Neji fanboys for some odd reason, why dont Naruto,Sasuke,Kakashi, Itachi, etc get any lovin?

Factory cracks me up, I hope hes not dead serious on what he says.^_^

Oh he is in one thread he said.

Neji and his clan can defeat sandaime,shodaime,yondaime,nidaime,godai me,orochimaru,jiraiya,and even if all of them had 9 tails chakra they would still lose.

Ok. I can't wait for the ending result to be revealed. I thought Sasuke was literally useless during the Genjutsu where Itachi pulled his eyes out. Yet he stopped Tsukiomi at his own will! I'm going now to download the manga chapters of him fighting up till now.

Wow...I like Neji, but man Faktory. You can't be serious. You run your mouth off more than Nami! (lol Just kidding Nami) Even I know it would be no contest and Neji would lose.

How about this: Haku, with crytal ice mirrors activated, against Neji.

It would be tough, but I think Neji would win. If he uses the same methods he used in the Kidoumaru fight, his kaiten isn't limited by webs, and the ice needles, with chakra infused into them, would be easier to detect, and are lighter and easier to deflect with that perpetual chakra field he has, not to mention Haku can't throw them in the same large quantities as Kidoumaru. All he has to do is activate 128 points while he's transitioning between the mirrors, time essentially stops, easy pickings in spite of Haku's speed. No chakra, no mirrors, ect.

Wow...I like Neji, but man Faktory. You can't be serious. You run your mouth off more than Nami! (lol Just kidding Nami) Even I know it would be no contest and Neji would lose.

How about this: Haku, with crytal ice mirrors activated, against Neji.

It would be tough, but I think Neji would win. If he uses the same methods he used in the Kidoumaru fight, his kaiten isn't limited by webs, and the ice needles, with chakra infused into them, would be easier to detect, and are lighter and easier to deflect with that perpetual chakra field he has, not to mention Haku can't throw them in the same large quantities as Kidoumaru. All he has to do is activate 128 points while he's transitioning between the mirrors, time essentially stops, easy pickings in spite of Haku's speed. No chakra, no mirrors, ect.


Haku with crystal ice mirrors activated vs. Neji(pre-timeskip Rescue Sasuke arc)

Neji is a god when it comes to braking out of traps. Haku's ice mirrors are no exemption. Neji would avoid the needles using his Byakugan (Sasuke did this & was inexperienced with his sharginan) then attack the mirrors weak points using chakra. There is no blind spot for Neji here because of how close Haku is. The mirrors would be destroyed in 1-2 minutes. After Haku is out of the mirrors Neji could then assume to lay the smack down on her I mean him.

What about Zabuza's mist against Neji's pre-time-jump Byakugan. That would be something cause Zabuza can work miracles with his mist. He can make an exact clone come out of the mist with the same chakra points.

What about Zabuza's mist against Neji's pre-time-jump Byakugan. That would be something cause Zabuza can work miracles with his mist. He can make an exact clone come out of the mist with the same chakra points.
Hmmm... Does the mist give off chakra I forget? Anyway Neji should still be able to see through it in my opinion. But you just put a genin (pre-timeskip) against an S-Class criminal, former 7 swordsmen of the mist member, Elite Jounin, who attempted to assassinate the Kage of his country. Not to mention the first time Zabuza fought Kakashi(konohas top jounin) he actually beat him... Yeah not much to say about this except Zabuza would win.

I think Neji would win against Zabuza as well. The only clones that can confuse the Byakugan like that are Kage Bunshin. Zabuza used Mizu Bunshin if any. Not to mention he's fairly slow by comparison with that sword, and the only reason Kakashi was at a disadvantage was because of the mist, which has no effect here. In fact, because of that chakra differenciation and sight, plus 360 degree vision, Zabuza has none of that surprise attack advantage that let him win against Kakashi.

I think Neji would win against Zabuza as well. The only clones that can confuse the Byakugan like that are Kage Bunshin. Zabuza used Mizu Bunshin if any. Not to mention he's fairly slow by comparison with that sword, and the only reason Kakashi was at a disadvantage was because of the mist, which has no effect here. In fact, because of that chakra differenciation and sight, plus 360 degree vision, Zabuza has none of that surprise attack advantage that let him win against Kakashi.
Zabuza beat Kakashi & Neji is a genin in this fight. Neji stands no chance of beating Zabuza. Just because Neji has Byakugan doesn't automatically mean he could beat everyone in Taijutsu. Zabuza is stronger, faster, & more experienced then Neji was pre-timeskip.

You're going off of credential and not ability. Neji possesses the strengths that were Kakashi's weaknesses in that fight. Zabuza relied on his mist to be unaffected by the Sharingan and to gain an edge because he had Kakashi surrounded and Kakashi could barely see. With Neji, the mist is essentially not there, and he can see Zabuza, leaving him pretty open to attack. The water bubble, Neji can focus chakra and break out, and the only other jutsu besides the mist was the water dragon, which takes a rather large amount of signing, at which point, Neji could get in quite a few chakra disabling blows.

How about this: Haku, with crytal ice mirrors activated, against Neji.
Neji touch the ice mirror and the ice mirrors lungs die

Neji-sama HUMPS Haku. EASY.

Zabuza is stronger, faster, & more experienced then Neji was pre-timeskip.
Zabuza LOL. He was humpd by Kakashis dogs. Neji >>> 4 jounin as genin when he dont try. all of them BARELY stop neji.

Neji touch the ice mirror and the ice mirrors lungs die

Neji-sama HUMPS Haku. EASY
Dude. Please. Stop. You're talking totally out of line with the debate and going completely off of opinion without backing it up. Please, for everyone here, stop and post actual evidence before you fanboy all over the place.

Dude. Please. Stop. You're talking totally out of line with the debate and going completely off of opinion without backing it up. Please, for everyone here, stop and post actual evidence before you fanboy all over the place.
??????? open your eyes

naruto break mirror easy. neji kill you with one hit.

Neji one hit >>> mirror.

You're going off of credential and not ability. Neji possesses the strengths that were Kakashi's weaknesses in that fight. Zabuza relied on his mist to be unaffected by the Sharingan and to gain an edge because he had Kakashi surrounded and Kakashi could barely see. With Neji, the mist is essentially not there, and he can see Zabuza, leaving him pretty open to attack. The water bubble, Neji can focus chakra and break out, and the only other jutsu besides the mist was the water dragon, which takes a rather large amount of signing, at which point, Neji could get in quite a few chakra disabling blows.
Fair enough. I also admit Neji's ability to brake free from a water prison. Just because Neji could see the clones are fake does not mean they wouldn't give him a hard time. Zabuza using mist would be bad in this case if Neji could see while in it. Which he most likely can. However Zabuza could always spam water jutsu at Neji to knock him off balance. & I don't see Neji being much competition for Zabuza in straight up Taijutsu. Considering Zabuza's age, experience, rep, & how well he faired against Kakashi himself.

Neji touch the ice mirror and the ice mirrors lungs die

Neji-sama HUMPS Haku. EASY.


Zabuza LOL. He was humpd by Kakashis dogs. Neji >>> 4 jounin as genin when he dont try. all of them BARELY stop neji.

LoL.....actually..if the ice mirrors have chakra in them and Haku..as he says see's in slow motion and can appear in all mirrors at once with his speed (he is constantly moving). Neji would be blind...Haku's chakra would appear everywhere at once..and I doubt that pre-skip Neji would be able to stop Haku.

And Zabuza's mist..being a jutsu...would have chakra in it..making it a big chakra cloud of mist with a Zabuza clone that could even fool Kakashi and his team. You think that Neji could be out there alone? Please...Neji would shit his pants....

Even if the mist is a jutsu, Neji has the pinpoint accuracy with the byakugan. He'd see the chakra points on the real one through this "cloud of chakra" which might not even be the case. Also if that's true, and Zabuza used clones that would be fairly deactivated by a surge of chakra into them, or Kaiten. This goes the same for water jutsu. I'm pretty sure Kaiten, whose full spin has never been penetrated, would defend against water jutsu. Simply put, while dodging and blocking attacks, he'd see the real Zabuza, even through the mist, and do whatever he needs to to deactivate the chakra points and do internal damage. Whether this is simple use of Jyuuken or using 64/128 points, he'd find a way to do it, and if it's the latter, Zabuza wouldn't be able to defend agaisnt it.

Neji touch the ice mirror and the ice mirrors lungs die

Neji-sama HUMPS Haku. EASY.


Zabuza LOL. He was humpd by Kakashis dogs. Neji >>> 4 jounin as genin when he dont try. all of them BARELY stop neji.

This guy's a joke. He can't be serious about all that crap he's saying. I think he is doing that to mess with us.

no he is serious bro this kid is a joke no need to take him seriously.

heres a link you may find interesting kakashi vs sasuke http://youtube.com/watch?v=wy2aqgxhrXI&feature=related

Fakt Factory knows all Neji facts, he is madeupfakts and should be treated as the Neji-Scholar that he is. Individuals who don't understand his genius should be shot, or stomped in the nuts.

Neji > 4 Jounins easily right? lmao.
------------------------------

heres a link you may find interesting kakashi vs sasuke http://youtube.com/watch?v=wy2aqgxhrXI&feature=related

Whooo! Good fanfic, I liked it, the drawing was good also. :)

EDIT: Double LMAO for distortion and Rep++

Fakt Factory knows all Neji facts, he is madeupfakts and should be treated as the Neji-Scholar that he is. Individuals who don't understand his genius should be shot, or stomped in the nuts.

Neji > 4 Jounins easily right? lmao.
------------------------------

Something similar =)
It took 4 Jounin to stop Neji's hand and he wasn't even trying.
Neji has the strength of 4 Bijuu easily.
Kthnxbai, no flaming pls :)

heres a link you may find interesting kakashi vs sasuke http://youtube.com/watch?v=wy2aqgxhrXI&feature=related
nice fan fic. I wouldn't mind seeing that in the future I guess. Though it would have been cool to see Adult Naruto smack around Sasuke. Kakashi for Hokage wooo!!!!

Well, all things considered, if Neji can break a Mirror and escape, Ice mirrors do nothing.

Also, if you have 360 degree vision, even if you can't view at the slowed basis as Sharingan, if you have a pinpoint 360 degree perriferal vision, you can view where Haku is going in spite of a speed differential, like what gave Sasuke trouble before the Sharingan. And if he activates Kaiten, Haku either gets caught in it or can't leave the mirror. The only disadvantage would be if Haku locates the blind spot. Then if Neji just activates 128 points, time slows down a lot, more than was ever shown with Sharingan.

As for Zabuza, he's trained as an Assasin, and that's his downfall. He attacks mostly physically, and Neji has the ability to dodge it. After that, he's specifically taijutsu and has Zabuza close range. Also, you miss something. Neji does have the chakra to spam Kaiten. Check otu the Kidoumaru fight. He spammed it while using 64 and 128 points, all the while maintaining a thin but perpetual chakra barrier all around him. He can usechakra and guard physical blows with it, then begin Kaiten as he showed against Naruto. This si because he has massive chakra control. He has the vision to counter, and the moves to defend, counter, and attack. Also, if the Mist arguement is null, as you put it, then it makes it as though it isn't there at all, like Zabuza didn't use it, which only furthers my point and stengthens it because you can't prove it does anything and I can't prove it doesn't.

Well, all things considered, if Neji can break a Mirror and escape, Ice mirrors do nothing.

Also, if you have 360 degree vision, even if you can't view at the slowed basis as Sharingan, if you have a pinpoint 360 degree perriferal vision, you can view where Haku is going in spite of a speed differential, like what gave Sasuke trouble before the Sharingan. And if he activates Kaiten, Haku either gets caught in it or can't leave the mirror. The only disadvantage would be if Haku locates the blind spot. Then if Neji just activates 128 points, time slows down a lot, more than was ever shown with Sharingan.

As for Zabuza, he's trained as an Assasin, and that's his downfall. He attacks mostly physically, and Neji has the ability to dodge it. After that, he's specifically taijutsu and has Zabuza close range. Also, you miss something. Neji does have the chakra to spam Kaiten. Check otu the Kidoumaru fight. He spammed it while using 64 and 128 points, all the while maintaining a thin but perpetual chakra barrier all around him. He can usechakra and guard physical blows with it, then begin Kaiten as he showed against Naruto. This si because he has massive chakra control. He has the vision to counter, and the moves to defend, counter, and attack. Also, if the Mist arguement is null, as you put it, then it makes it as though it isn't there at all, like Zabuza didn't use it, which only furthers my point and stengthens it because you can't prove it does anything and I can't prove it doesn't.


Just heads up 128 palms doesn't slow down time that was put in the anime for an effect.

Second his vision is useless because haku moves to fast for him third it is easier for haku to figure out his weak spot because like spider man he can throw objects.

Unless neji can figure out the secret he is finished.

First, chakra, he can see Haku that way. Now if Haku moves too fast for that, then here's the other.

Second, say if you have such periferal, you could see a grasshopper jumping behind you or or a fly buzzing around. It isn't a stretch to even see a flash or blur between the mirrors, which is made esspecially visible by the chakra surging in a streack between mirrors, considering it isn't jsut Haku's speed, but also the effect of the Jutsu. It also isn't a stretch to have Neji see projectile needles that are infused with Chakra heading towards him from these blurs, and through his chakra projection field, and because they are so light, simply being deflected or blocked when he sees them. He can even use the same means as he did to deflect one of Kidoumaru's kunai or even Naruto, send chakra out, then begin Kaiten. The needles aren't as piercing as those super-kunai were, so they wouldn't be nearly as effective at peircing such a defensive mechanism.

All things considered, I bet Neji could figure out the secret of the mirrors faster than Haku would be able to figure out his weak point, simply because he has that chakra sight.

This is why I suggested this. Because I knew it'd be a good, casual debate. :D

The one thing that I will always remember about Haku is, he could do hand signs with just one hands, man I just thought that was badass. Haku was a pure genius, nothing more nothing less.

Also...Neji does not have 360 vision as Kidoumaru points out. He fills his blind spot with chakra, so Neji could not see directly behind him, and at the rate that Haku could throw needles Neji would get hit. Also don't compare the PRE-TIMESKIP NEJI WITH THE TIMESKIP. No Neji would not be able to spam Kaiten or any jutsu's, he's just not at that level yet. Both Zabuza and Haku could murder him.

If the Byakugan can see chakra points and Zabuzas mist...being a jutsu created by chakra, Neji would see a cloud of chakra. As pointed out..against Kidoumaru, he saw the chakra in his spider-strings, so things shouldn't be too different with other jutsu. He would suspect Zabuza in his range...and since Zabuzas clone can cast jutsu, how would he know if it was real or fake? Wouldn't the clone have chakra points? Point blank...Zabuza is waaay more physically and jutsu capable of wiping Neji out.

Haku on the other hand.....Neji might be able to hold his own against Haku....but after seeing how precise Haku's aim can be with senbon needles, I doubt that Neji could hide his blind spot forever. Even if Neji broke out the mirrors, I highly doubt that he could catch Haku lol and then his ice would reform.

Real needles, though not as visible chakra wise as the ice needles, would still be those projectiles that would be knocked off course. As far as we knwo, Haku onyl has the needles and his ice mirrors. even if Neji can't see Haku himself, he can still prevent the needles, even if they are in his blind spot, from missing all of his vitals if they hit him at all, as only the blind spot ones would from what we know and can infer, you agreed to this. To that end, all he really has to do is block and escape, break the mirrors, ect. If Haku is foolish enough to get too close trying to stop him, heh, well easier pickings for Neji. If the ice reforms, it wouldn't matter as Neji's no longer inside, just a waste of chakra, and he wouldn't let himself be trapped again. Also, he can spam the kaitens, KoNg, he did during the Kidoumaru fight, maybe seven times or more, while using 64 and 128 points, and keeping up that chakra field. He has excellent chakra control, and can do that. Ergo, if he avoids/blocks/counters the needles and breaks/breaks out of the ice, he wins. We know no more of Haku's jutsu to say he can perform anything else other than good taijutsu, in which he'd still be beaten. Haku only has the ice mirrors, needles, and taijutsu. Neji can counter, and in many cases, beat, all of them.

As for your Zabuza arguement, we already set that the mist being a cloud of chakra, or that it'd have an effect, was null in the arguement, and in that case it would have to be left as though the mist was not there, as having it blur vision or having Neji see through it would be an advantage to either side.

We know that only Kage Bunshin actually copy chakra in such a manner as to not allow the Byakugan to differentiate. He would know they were not the real one, as Zabuza uses Mizu Bunshin. One chakra blow, or any severe damage, and they're gone. He would be able to distinguish the real one dead on. Not to say they wouldn't give him trouble but Zabuza doesn't have an endless chakra supply like Naruto, and because of the Jyuuken's chakra style, they'd go down quickly. Also, other than the Bunshin, all we know of Zabuza's jutsu are the water coffin, which Neji could break out of focusing chakra, and the water dragon, which I believe Neji could defend against with Kaiten, or simply Jyuuken or "points jutsu" Zabuza while he was making all of those signs we saw were necessary. Zabuza is decently slow with his sword, slow enough for Neji to dodge and Jyuuken, and in other taijutsu, considering it's Neji's forte, I can only assume Zabuza would be more worse for wear after a few hits of Jyuuken.

Real needles, though not as visible chakra wise as the ice needles, would still be those projectiles that would be knocked off course. As far as we knwo, Haku onyl has the needles and his ice mirrors. even if Neji can't see Haku himself, he can still prevent the needles, even if they are in his blind spot, from missing all of his vitals if they hit him at all, as only the blind spot ones would from what we know and can infer, you agreed to this. To that end, all he really has to do is block and escape, break the mirrors, ect. If Haku is foolish enough to get too close trying to stop him, heh, well easier pickings for Neji. If the ice reforms, it wouldn't matter as Neji's no longer inside, just a waste of chakra, and he wouldn't let himself be trapped again. Also, he can spam the kaitens, KoNg, he did during the Kidoumaru fight, maybe seven times or more, while using 64 and 128 points, and keeping up that chakra field. He has excellent chakra control, and can do that. Ergo, if he avoids/blocks/counters the needles and breaks/breaks out of the ice, he wins. We know no more of Haku's jutsu to say he can perform anything else other than good taijutsu, in which he'd still be beaten. Haku only has the ice mirrors, needles, and taijutsu. Neji can counter, and in many cases, beat, all of them.

As for your Zabuza arguement, we already set that the mist being a cloud of chakra, or that it'd have an effect, was null in the arguement, and in that case it would have to be left as though the mist was not there, as having it blur vision or having Neji see through it would be an advantage to either side.

We know that only Kage Bunshin actually copy chakra in such a manner as to not allow the Byakugan to differentiate. He would know they were not the real one, as Zabuza uses Mizu Bunshin. One chakra blow, or any severe damage, and they're gone. He would be able to distinguish the real one dead on. Not to say they wouldn't give him trouble but Zabuza doesn't have an endless chakra supply like Naruto, and because of the Jyuuken's chakra style, they'd go down quickly. Also, other than the Bunshin, all we know of Zabuza's jutsu are the water coffin, which Neji could break out of focusing chakra, and the water dragon, which I believe Neji could defend against with Kaiten, or simply Jyuuken or "points jutsu" Zabuza while he was making all of those signs we saw were necessary. Zabuza is decently slow with his sword, slow enough for Neji to dodge and Jyuuken, and in other taijutsu, considering it's Neji's forte, I can only assume Zabuza would be more worse for wear after a few hits of Jyuuken.

You are basiclly implying neji can almost beat a pre time skip kakashi.

Neji cannot break from prison break he barely broke 10% kisame's prison and zabuza would use all his power then it's over neji is trapped.

Kakashi couldn't break it because zabuza was using all his power neji wouldn't be able to break it either.

Kisame split in 3 oh no 4 and neji barely broke out it took him until both of his teamates were about to lose their breath.

Zabuza would kill neji.

Also, he can spam the kaitens, KoNg, he did during the Kidoumaru fight, maybe seven times or more, while using 64 and 128 points, and keeping up that chakra field. He has excellent chakra control, and can do that. Ergo, if he avoids/blocks/counters the needles and breaks/breaks out of the ice, he wins. We know no more of Haku's jutsu to say he can perform anything else other

Uhhh Kidoumaru could have possibly killed Neji, Neji barely escaped that fight himself and let alone could he fight Haku or Zabuza. Lol...Zabuza can hold his knife with one hand, and he is relatively quick with his blade..being a silent assasin.

This is just logic..listen to yourself...your saying Neji > Team 7 lol.....

But I will say this, you make Zabuza out to be so slow, but you have to remember, he's holding a fkn cleaver bigger than his own body and still keeping up against Kakashi with a kunai...so I'd have to say he's pretty damn fast...and strong. And there's no contest of speed between Kakashi and Neji...so don't go there.
Damn look at what the Neji troll started lol.... Yeah, I have to agree with this when concerning Zabuza. Even if Neji is my favorite (along with Shika) there's no way I could say pre-timeskip Neji could beat Zabuza. I'd just be lying to myself.

Damn look at what the Neji troll started lol.... Yeah, I have to agree with this when concerning Zabuza. Even if Neji is my favorite (along with Shika) there's no way I could say pre-timeskip Neji could beat Zabuza. I'd just be lying to myself.

Yep true dat neji beating zabuza in par 1 would mean the end of the manga lol.

Btw kick ass fuking sig bro.

First off, I'm not saying Neji is better than team 7 or Kakashi, I'm saying his abilities support victory against these enemies where the others didn't.

I did argue your poitns, SM, I just didn't separate them out.

Now, are you trying to tell me Kakashi could have forced chakra out to such an accurate and pinpoint degree as Neji? That's false. He can't use Jyuuken, and that's absolute bull. Zabuza did not have as much chakra as Naruto did during his fight with Neji, and Kisame's clone alone did. In spite of the obviously small amoutn of chakra put into the water clones by comparison, Neji got out by using 64 points. How would he handle Zabuza's with 128? Also, you can't prove to me that Neji couldn't get out using the same means, as it wasn't shown pre TS, but I have a bit of proof after TS that would let him get out the same way, in spite of a variable and unknown chakra difference. However, if you think I don't have sufficient proof either, it can be nulled, and the water trap can be stricken from the debate, almost like Zabuza can't use it, just like the mist. This, however would only leave taijtusu, which, as admitted, is hindered by the sword he almost never puts down, and Neji has the means to percieve and most likely dodge. Zabuza doesn't have so much godlike speed either to avoid Neji completely while using taijutsu. His only other jutsu that we know of is the water dragon, and my defense against that was never argued against.

As for Haku, the breaking of the mirrors was something someone mentioned that hadn't previously been argued against, now, I'll leave it out.

You missed my point; real needles don't require chakra, as he wouldn't be creating them out of the water. Allowing Haku to carry on even longer. I already agreed that Haku would have a hard time to hit him, but even Neji does not have the godlike speed you are giving him, not enough to constantly block wave after wave of 6-10 different needles that come in rapid succession. Chakra field or not...seeing them or not...he simply couldn't block that many with every pass. He's not Lee.

Well, first is that Haku will run out of real needles, unlike ice needles. Eventally he'd end up having to expend chakra to either keep real needles or once the needles are gone. I guess you're right, Neji can't block 6-10 needles with every pass. That's why he definitely didn't block hundreds of spiders and kunai, pass after pass only letting five hit him and constantly keeping them from hitting vitals. There's no way that happened either, right? I've got decent evidence and a pretty safe bet that Neji could dodge just needles, as Haku, unlike Kidoumaru, has no way to stall or slow Kaiten. Neji gains enough speed during 64 or 128 that I'd bet he could approach Haku while in a mirror, and strike, forcing chakra into the mirror, however, if you say he can't, and the problem is speculation, he could always use that speed to work his way out, or make the attempt, and as we know, Haku will usually travel out of the mirror and right into physical contact to push the enmy back. That gives Neji several chances to counterstrike, however, due to speed, this may also be variable.

The problem with Neji Vs. Haku, especially with crystal ice mirrors, is that it's almost all speculation, and either side can do what they want witht he facts. My interpretation based on the evidence would obviously steer towards my side, where yours would go towards yours. It's all speculation whether Haku could locate Neji's blind spot, Neji could break mirrors, escape, move to avoid needles. The difference is that the Kidoumaru fight is a perfect example of countering a strategy that is similar but actually more effective than Haku's in that it had much more effective projectiles and a means of slowing and contering Kaiten. Basically put, Neji already essentially tied agaisnt a strategy that was the same, but more advanced than Haku's.

You know what pisses me off about Neji... that he got caught with only one solid hit while fighting Naruto. This one uppercut was enough to KO him. Really really sad... However it's awesome that Neji got a chance to redeem himself in the Kidomaru fight.

First off, I'm not saying Neji is better than team 7 or Kakashi, I'm saying his abilities support victory against these enemies where the others didn't.

I did argue your poitns, SM, I just didn't separate them out.

Now, are you trying to tell me Kakashi could have forced chakra out to such an accurate and pinpoint degree as Neji? That's false. He can't use Jyuuken, and that's absolute bull.

Your saying a PTS Neji has better chakra control than Kakashi...you must be sick.

However, if you think I don't have sufficient proof either, it can be nulled, and the water trap can be stricken from the debate, almost like Zabuza can't use it, just like the mist.

Zabuza's mist is kind of like genjutsu...or is categorized as one. So you saying that genjutsu is null against Neji?


This, however would only leave taijtusu, which, as admitted, is hindered by the sword he almost never puts down, and Neji has the means to percieve and most likely dodge. Zabuza doesn't have so much godlike speed either to avoid Neji completely while using taijutsu.

I am willing to bet that Zabuza has enough "god-like" speed to dodge a PTS Neji.


Well, first is that Haku will run out of real needles, unlike ice needles. Eventally he'd end up having to expend chakra to either keep real needles or once the needles are gone.

Neji would already be dead by then...

There's no way that happened either, right? I've got decent evidence and a pretty safe bet that Neji could dodge just needles, as Haku, unlike Kidoumaru, has no way to stall or slow Kaiten.
Haku can already see in slow motion..there's no need to slow Neji down if he's already slowed in Haku's vision

Neji gains enough speed during 64 or 128 that I'd bet he could approach Haku while in a mirror, and strike, forcing chakra into the mirror, however, if you say he can't, and the problem is speculation, he could always use that speed to work his way out, or make the attempt, and as we know, Haku will usually travel out of the mirror and right into physical contact to push the enmy back. That gives Neji several chances to counterstrike, however, due to speed, this may also be variable.

I highly doubt that Neji could break Haku's ice mirrors, it was never done before and was seen as a death trap if you were in it...The only known person who broke out was Kyuubu rage Naruto, and I doubt that PTS Neji could summon that amount of chakra. Also...you cant run out of the mirrors lol, maybe sneak in but Haku would definitely knock you back without you even having a chance to see him do it..

It's all speculation whether Haku could locate Neji's blind spot, Neji could break mirrors, escape, move to avoid needles. The difference is that the Kidoumaru fight is a perfect example of countering a strategy that is similar but actually more effective than Haku's in that it had much more effective projectiles and a means of slowing and contering Kaiten. Basically put, Neji already essentially tied agaisnt a strategy that was the same, but more advanced than Haku's.

If breaking the ice mirrors was that easy..everyone would have been able to do it. Lol Haku's medical skills prove effective when he knows all your vitals and anatomy. He also doens't need means of slowing down Kaiten when he see's everything in slow motion. So Basically, Haku could already see Kaiten coming and counter it when needed, if needed to counter at all.

Maybe if compared to a TS Neji, would he be able to survive, but PTS Neji doesn't even play in the same category as Haku or Zabuza.


------
Lol EdiT....I still see that PTS Neji is a chump compared to Haku and Zabuza!

You know what pisses me off about Neji... that he got caught with only one solid hit while fighting Naruto. This one uppercut was enough to KO him. Really really sad... However it's awesome that Neji got a chance to redeem himself in the Kidomaru fight.

He got knocked the fuk out because naruto hits like a iron fist is attached to him.

@Hinata you seem to overrate neji to much way to muchhh.

He cannot beat zabuza nor haku.

Haku is to fast for him he can't break his mirrios unless he get's chakra like kyuubi juice naruto lmaoo which we know he doesn't even have close to that.

You cannot get out of the mirrors because haku can easily stop you and as slow as neji is lol it's no big deal for haku neji has never shown anything more then basic speed while haku is fast as hell.

Zabuza can use hidden mist jutsu to blind neji first of you don't even know if it's chakra or not and no it's not.

Sharingan can see chakra paritcals and chakra flow as stated in the manga when kakashi used mist jutsu on itachi,itachi was still able to see but not because there was chakra particals or chakra at all. I don't know were you got that it's chakra the mist is plain mist that is all until you have proof it will stand that way.

ANything neji throws the samahada can block easily you seem to think he can have some defense from water shark bomb jutsu lol you must be out your mind.

he has no defence against shark bomb jutsu and he SURE AS HELL HAS NO DEFENSE FROM GIANT VORTEX JUTSU WHICH FLOODS THE ENTIRE AREA..

lAST BUT NOT LEAST PROOF FROM DATA BOOKS

http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Momochi_Zabuza

while he has what it takes to fight a good fight he doesn't have what it takes to win.

http://www.leafninja.com/fullbio.php?p=Hyuuga_Neji

I enjoy this big tempreature discussion about neji :)

TIME FOR ME TO CLEAR UP POINTS

Neji > Zebraza. Why? stupid CANINE > ZABUZA.

Neji > Orochimama. Why? LoL its canon fakt that Orochimama likes little boys, eg. itachi, boner, and sasuke. itachi grew up so orochimama doesnt like him anymore. neji walk in front an swing his hair and oros pants explode from excitement!!!!

First off, I'm not saying Neji is better than team 7 or Kakashi
well he is. in fakt hes better than all the teams and iruka.

I enjoy this big tempreature discussion about neji :)

TIME FOR ME TO CLEAR UP POINTS

Neji > Zebraza. Why? stupid CANINE > ZABUZA.

Neji > Orochimama. Why? LoL its canon fakt that Orochimama likes little boys, eg. itachi, boner, and sasuke. itachi grew up so orochimama doesnt like him anymore. neji walk in front an swing his hair and oros pants explode from excitement!!!!


well he is. in fakt hes better than all the teams and iruka.


Lmfaooo you are a real class act kid you bring life to this forum reps 4 you my man.

But on a serious note neji is wackk literally.

I see we have a bigger Neji fanboy than myself. :) Let's see how blinding his fanboyness is, shall we!

New fight omg!

Post time skip Neji vs....





























...versus...

































...Itachi. :)

'Kay go!

Neji dead less than one min. into the fight

Just to point out something real quick that has been bothering me about those earlier claims of zomg uber speed from Neji...

If Neji was such a speed demon, then why would his own trainer, teacher, mentor (albeit not as fanatical a relationship as Lee/Gai), say that the key to his defeat...is high speed combinations?

Neji vs Itachi...hrmm...well...*IF* AND THIS IS A BIG *IF* he is somehow granted a way to avoid the Tsukuyomi (which I still maintain that having all seeing eyes would still force him to actually see into Itachi's eyes and therefor be forced into the fearsome technique), than he could always just eat an Amaterasu to the face. Itachi has already proven to be extremely versatile and talented in all fields, not to mention, extreme speed, be it just with his hand seals, or his entire body. Either way...I really just can't see any serious way for Neji to win. Neji fans, you can defend it all you want...but let's face facts here. A non-blind Itachi would whoop his ass and fling him around like a toothpick.


If Neji pulls out all the stops and goes all out...I'd give him 2-3 minutes unless Itachi gets serious...which I doubt he would heh. Let's face it...it took Sasuke breaking out of the Tsukuyomi to make him get serious...I doubt the Hyuuga prodigy would be able to force him to.

Neji has no speed everyone knows his speed sucks his style of fighting doesn't reply on speed hyugga's have nothing more then average speed and that's proven when he can't even keep up with a bit of kyuubi juice naruto naruto was so quick he had no time to complete his kaiten therefore he took a shit load of damage.

Anyone with more then average speed can beat him it's as simple as that.

The only possible way Neji would win agaisnt Itachi would be if the genjutsu avoidance variants, which are just as likely as SM's forced to look theory, were true, so Neji can avoid genjtusu and tsukuyomi, make it through ameratsu, or get to Itachi while he's still focusing, before it's activated, all while dealing with Katon and Itachi's taijutsu, although he'd be better off in taijutsu situations, and maybe genjutsu as the case may be, Neji still stands no chance.

As for the Zabuza arguements, I guess thats true, SM. I reread it, and you're right, it wasn't 64 points, but that may in fact make it all more theory over whether he could or could not break otu before TS, so I guess it should be left out due to speculation.

@KoNg
Your saying a PTS Neji has better chakra control than Kakashi...you must be sick.
In the way he uses it, yes. You can't tell me Kakashi can inject pinpoints of chakra into you, specifically damaging you internally and causing loss of chakra, or that he can focus chakra out of every point in his body, such as Neji did, or that he can keep us a constant chakra field surrounding him.
Zabuza's mist is kind of like genjutsu...or is categorized as one. So you saying that genjutsu is null against Neji?
No, I was saying we don't knwo whether the msit would look like a cloud of chakra or not, and can't prove it either way, so it can't be included, or is nulled, in the arguement because we don't know what effect it actually would have.
I am willing to bet that Zabuza has enough "god-like" speed to dodge a PTS Neji.

I am willing to bet he doesn't.:p
Neji would already be dead by then...

How so? I've already provided more than enough evidence for Neji's defense. In this place, in all matters who runs out of chakra first;Haku, with his ice mirrors and needles, or Neji, who will use his chakra much more efficiently in all the right places with his chakra expending jutsu.
Haku can already see in slow motion..there's no need to slow Neji down if he's already slowed in Haku's vision

You miss my point. Though Haku is moving so quickly, he'd still have to do something to slow it to get such a hit in before Neji recovers, similar to what Kido did. If is was jsut a speed boost Kido needed, then Neji would have been hit by more when he started using more Kunai, however, this is not the case. He was hit due to the slowing of Kaiten due to the webs and thus suffered a circumstantial lowering in Kaiten-based defense. As this is not the case Haku woudl nto have those same hits in edgewise that Kido did.
Also...you cant run out of the mirrors lol, maybe sneak in but Haku would definitely knock you back without you even having a chance to see him do it.
Why could Neji not use such a speed boost to allow him to see/avoid Haku better as he's coming out of the mirrors towards him? It seems quite plausible.

@Nami
@Hinata you seem to overrate neji to much way to muchhh.
You seem to overrate your side way to much all the time.;) Even if it's based on the facts of your side, so's my arguement. I always side based on the facts and my perception.
Haku is to fast for him he can't break his mirrios unless he get's chakra like kyuubi juice naruto lmaoo which we know he doesn't even have close to that.

I already consigned him breaking the mirrors to the theory bucket. I won't argue it further.;)
You cannot get out of the mirrors because haku can easily stop you and as slow as neji is lol it's no big deal for haku neji has never shown anything more then basic speed while haku is fast as hell.

And when Neji has activated one of his jutsu's that inhances his speed to an extreme degree?
Zabuza can use hidden mist jutsu to blind neji first of you don't even know if it's chakra or not and no it's not.

Sharingan can see chakra paritcals and chakra flow as stated in the manga when kakashi used mist jutsu on itachi,itachi was still able to see but not because there was chakra particals or chakra at all. I don't know were you got that it's chakra the mist is plain mist that is all until you have proof it will stand that way.

Well, if it's jsut regular mist as you say, it actually supports my point, as Neji could jsut see Zabuza's chakra through the mist. The msit arguement is whether he'd have a cloud of chakra blocking the chakra view of the Bykugan or not. If it's just regular mist, then that actually supports my side.
ANything neji throws the samahada can block easily you seem to think he can have some defense from water shark bomb jutsu lol you must be out your mind.

he has no defence against shark bomb jutsu and he SURE AS HELL HAS NO DEFENSE FROM GIANT VORTEX JUTSU WHICH FLOODS THE ENTIRE AREA..

Bullshit. Zabuza doesn't have Kisame's jutsu or Kisame's sword. The onyl similarity I've seen between them is Mizu Bunshin and their village of origin. Try using Kisame in a Zabuza arguement and you lose all credibility. So here's my queston: Did you seriously mean to bring up things that are purely Kisame, and not Zabuza? Because if you did, just leave. Seriously, just go.

Also, what proof do you want me to see from the databooks? I don't want to read through them all and not know what you wanted me to see specifically.

lol @ FaktFaktory

The only possible way Neji would win agaisnt Itachi would be if the genjutsu avoidance variants, which are just as likely as SM's forced to look theory, were true, so Neji can avoid genjtusu and tsukuyomi, make it through ameratsu, or get to Itachi while he's still focusing, before it's activated, all while dealing with Katon and Itachi's taijutsu, although he'd be better off in taijutsu situations, and maybe genjutsu as the case may be, Neji still stands no chance.

As for the Zabuza arguements, I guess thats true, SM. I reread it, and you're right, it wasn't 64 points, but that may in fact make it all more theory over whether he could or could not break otu before TS, so I guess it should be left out due to speculation.

@KoNg

In the way he uses it, yes. You can't tell me Kakashi can inject pinpoints of chakra into you, specifically damaging you internally and causing loss of chakra, or that he can focus chakra out of every point in his body, such as Neji did, or that he can keep us a constant chakra field surrounding him.

No, I was saying we don't knwo whether the msit would look like a cloud of chakra or not, and can't prove it either way, so it can't be included, or is nulled, in the arguement because we don't know what effect it actually would have.

I am willing to bet he doesn't.:p

How so? I've already provided more than enough evidence for Neji's defense. In this place, in all matters who runs out of chakra first;Haku, with his ice mirrors and needles, or Neji, who will use his chakra much more efficiently in all the right places with his chakra expending jutsu.

You miss my point. Though Haku is moving so quickly, he'd still have to do something to slow it to get such a hit in before Neji recovers, similar to what Kido did. If is was jsut a speed boost Kido needed, then Neji would have been hit by more when he started using more Kunai, however, this is not the case. He was hit due to the slowing of Kaiten due to the webs and thus suffered a circumstantial lowering in Kaiten-based defense. As this is not the case Haku woudl nto have those same hits in edgewise that Kido did.

Why could Neji not use such a speed boost to allow him to see/avoid Haku better as he's coming out of the mirrors towards him? It seems quite plausible.

@Nami

You seem to overrate your side way to much all the time.;) Even if it's based on the facts of your side, so's my arguement. I always side based on the facts and my perception.

I already consigned him breaking the mirrors to the theory bucket. I won't argue it further.;)

And when Neji has activated one of his jutsu's that inhances his speed to an extreme degree?

Well, if it's jsut regular mist as you say, it actually supports my point, as Neji could jsut see Zabuza's chakra through the mist. The msit arguement is whether he'd have a cloud of chakra blocking the chakra view of the Bykugan or not. If it's just regular mist, then that actually supports my side.

Bullshit. Zabuza doesn't have Kisame's jutsu or Kisame's sword. The onyl similarity I've seen between them is Mizu Bunshin and their village of origin. Try using Kisame in a Zabuza arguement and you lose all credibility. So here's my queston: Did you seriously mean to bring up things that are purely Kisame, and not Zabuza? Because if you did, just leave. Seriously, just go.

Also, what proof do you want me to see from the databooks? I don't want to read through them all and not know what you wanted me to see specifically.

lol @ FaktFaktory


First of all are you out your mind how do you think water shark bomb jutsu was copied by kakashi he copied it from zabuza.

Giant vortex isn't something kisame showed so far it was the last jutsu used in zabuza vs kakashi round 1 and kakshi used it first by copying it and zabuza was just about dead from all the water and pressure so please stop talking right now.

As for the data books it shows skill level that's all i want you to see skill level plain as that.

And you can gaze on the ninjutsu list to if you want for proo zabuza used giant vortex.

And for haku side what enhacing speed does neji have his fuking trigram shit it' only for his hands not for his whole body lmaoo.

The only possible way Neji would win agaisnt Itachi would be if the genjutsu avoidance variants, which are just as likely as SM's forced to look theory, were true, so Neji can avoid genjtusu and tsukuyomi, make it through ameratsu, or get to Itachi while he's still focusing, before it's activated, all while dealing with Katon and Itachi's taijutsu, although he'd be better off in taijutsu situations, and maybe genjutsu as the case may be, Neji still stands no chance.

As for the Zabuza arguements, I guess thats true, SM. I reread it, and you're right, it wasn't 64 points, but that may in fact make it all more theory over whether he could or could not break otu before TS, so I guess it should be left out due to speculation.

@KoNg

In the way he uses it, yes. You can't tell me Kakashi can inject pinpoints of chakra into you, specifically damaging you internally and causing loss of chakra, or that he can focus chakra out of every point in his body, such as Neji did, or that he can keep us a constant chakra field surrounding him.

No, I was saying we don't knwo whether the msit would look like a cloud of chakra or not, and can't prove it either way, so it can't be included, or is nulled, in the arguement because we don't know what effect it actually would have.

I am willing to bet he doesn't.:p

How so? I've already provided more than enough evidence for Neji's defense. In this place, in all matters who runs out of chakra first;Haku, with his ice mirrors and needles, or Neji, who will use his chakra much more efficiently in all the right places with his chakra expending jutsu.

You miss my point. Though Haku is moving so quickly, he'd still have to do something to slow it to get such a hit in before Neji recovers, similar to what Kido did. If is was jsut a speed boost Kido needed, then Neji would have been hit by more when he started using more Kunai, however, this is not the case. He was hit due to the slowing of Kaiten due to the webs and thus suffered a circumstantial lowering in Kaiten-based defense. As this is not the case Haku woudl nto have those same hits in edgewise that Kido did.

Why could Neji not use such a speed boost to allow him to see/avoid Haku better as he's coming out of the mirrors towards him? It seems quite plausible.

@Nami

You seem to overrate your side way to much all the time.;) Even if it's based on the facts of your side, so's my arguement. I always side based on the facts and my perception.

I already consigned him breaking the mirrors to the theory bucket. I won't argue it further.;)

And when Neji has activated one of his jutsu's that inhances his speed to an extreme degree?

Well, if it's jsut regular mist as you say, it actually supports my point, as Neji could jsut see Zabuza's chakra through the mist. The msit arguement is whether he'd have a cloud of chakra blocking the chakra view of the Bykugan or not. If it's just regular mist, then that actually supports my side.

Bullshit. Zabuza doesn't have Kisame's jutsu or Kisame's sword. The onyl similarity I've seen between them is Mizu Bunshin and their village of origin. Try using Kisame in a Zabuza arguement and you lose all credibility. So here's my queston: Did you seriously mean to bring up things that are purely Kisame, and not Zabuza? Because if you did, just leave. Seriously, just go.

Also, what proof do you want me to see from the databooks? I don't want to read through them all and not know what you wanted me to see specifically.

lol @ FaktFaktory


First of all are you out your mind how do you think water shark bomb jutsu was copied by kakashi he copied it from zabuza.

Giant vortex isn't something kisame showed so far it was the last jutsu used in zabuza vs kakashi round 1 and kakshi used it first by copying it and zabuza was just about dead from all the water and pressure so please stop talking right now.

As for the data books it shows skill level that's all i want you to see skill level plain as that.

And you can gaze on the ninjutsu list to if you want for proo zabuza used giant vortex.

And for haku side what enhacing speed does neji have his fuking trigram shit it' only for his hands not for his whole body lmaoo.

Water dragon blast also known as water shark bomb jutsu

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/15/naruto_v02_ch015_155/

Water explosion jutsu known in the anime as giant vortex jutsu

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/15/naruto_v02_ch015_161/

Un;ess your neji can summon brick walls he is done.

And to prove that byakugan can't help against the mist well we all know sharingan is able to use i mean see chakra flow shown more then once in the manga. So if kakashi couldn't see that chakra flow of zabuza neji won't be able to either.

Look HX don't get me wrong neji is strong but not strong enough to beat these 2 and post timsekip neji would have to as powerful as pre timeskip kakashi to beat zabuza and i doubt he got that strong in fact i know he didn't.

LOL u guys are all zealots. THE ONLY people who have A CHANCE aganst neji is Gai or Kisame.
the key to his defeat...is high speed combinations?
only gai is fas enough. he kick at 300km/h

look at this FAKT picture
http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/4/1/4/f_04m_3642982.jpg

LOL u guys are all zealots. THE ONLY people who have A CHANCE aganst neji is Gai or Kisame.

only gai is fas enough. he kick at 300km/h

look at this FAKT picture
http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/4/1/4/f_04m_3642982.jpg

aaaaaand, where is the faKt that that's not lee actually? eh?

and don't worry, have one of the Pain bodies absorb Neji's chakra while he defends himself with Kaiten, and Neji goes to sleep... for good XD

LOL u guys are all zealots. THE ONLY people who have A CHANCE aganst neji is Gai or Kisame.

only gai is fas enough. he kick at 300km/h

look at this FAKT picture
http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/4/1/4/f_04m_3642982.jpg

LOL this guy cracks me up.

dude neji can fight distance now foos
and his speed is not a factor now he has jesus eyes
he can kill in an instant if he wanted

dude neji can fight distance now foosSo? He can do one thing from a distance, that's not going to work on someone like Itachi. Not even blind Itachi.

and his speed is not a factor now he has jesus eyesWho exactly are you saying has Jesus eyes? o_O I know you don't mean Neji. I'm sorry, sir, but the only ones with Jesus eyes are: Kakashi, Madara, Sasuke, and Itachi. The one with God eyes is Pain. Neji has, maybe, Moses eyes or something. Oh, and speed IS a factor. Neji can see all around, sure, but I highly doubt he's fast enough to defend against a serious Itachi.

he can kill in an instant if he wantedWhen was the last time we saw Neji kill in an instant? :) Also, he can kill regular/fodder ninja like that, not powerful, experienced, fellow genius ninjas, like Itachi.

While I do think you both need to calm down (Nami/HFX), I'm afraid Nami has a point about the Mist...If it was capable of blocking the sharingan, which also sees chakra (it simply can't see into the body and the chakra pathways like the Byakugan), then I have to assume that it would cloud Neji's vision as well.


I don't know the mist, was it a special type of mist? if the byakugan can see through rocks, and trees and everything, why can't it see through mist?

Dude, fakt factory...you are my new favorite member at NL. Every time you post it cracks me up.

While I do think you both need to calm down (Nami/HFX), I'm afraid Nami has a point about the Mist...If it was capable of blocking the sharingan, which also sees chakra (it simply can't see into the body and the chakra pathways like the Byakugan), then I have to assume that it would cloud Neji's vision as well.

As for all the technique arguments...sheesh people...can't you just call the technique one thing? Not 2-3 different names for each one...If I'm not mistaken, the last technique used was called the grand waterfall technique in the manga...so if it's called Water explosion as well...that's fine.

Same with Water Dragon Blast, we know Zabuza used it...but those are the only two water techniques (aside from the Mist/prison/clone) that he displayed at all...so where are you getting that he used Kisame's Water Shark Bomb jutsu?

Water shark bomb and dragon blast are the same jutsu i am not talking about the sharks he sent on kisame that is another whole jutsu.

Ok never mind sorry it's that shark bomb and dragon blast look exactley alike.

Ok big deal Water explosion and dragon blast is still enough neji has no defense against it nor does he have defense over mist jutsu nor can he break out if he was caught in water prison with zabuza's full power he barely broke from kisame and this is pre timeskip neji who i already have shown skill level from data books.

Or are you implying he is as strong as kakashi pre timekip roflmfaooo he isn't even as strong as sasuke or naruto pre timekip.

Nami, you really are lazy aren't you. I'm assuming that you have not read any of my other posts and only partially read that last one seeing since you think I'm suggesting that Neji would be capable of such things...hell I've been fighting it just as much if not more than you...Quit being lazy and READ!!

No tha only part of that post that was directed at you was that shark bomb and dragon blast are similar in form that is all.

Evrything else is directed at Neji's number one fan that's HX.

Seriously i am gonna stop posting on this fight soon it's clear as day who would win the match even if HX doesn't want to accept it and believe me he will never accept anyone beating neji lmaooo.

New fight! :O

Post time skip Neji vs Pain!



















Sorry, I shouldn't feed the troll. =\

Seriously now...

Healthy Orochimaru (no Edo Tensei but does have Manda) vs Jiraiya (no Hermit Mode, but has Gamabunta).

alright, lemme just post this, and then go on with the next fight.


Oh and liuaishan,, The point of it was that, if the mist is capable of blocking Kakashi's vision (which not only enhances the extreme level of detail with which you see things, but also sees chakra) Then it would be a fairly safe assumption that it would effect the Byakugan in a similar manner, seeing as they too can see chakra, creating a similar 'haze effect' around them. Even if capable of seeing what is beyond the mist through it's incredible distance and ability to see 'through' objects, it would still be unable to spot things that are within the haze cloud itself.

This is of course, still partly theory since we don't know if the mist cloud was lined with chakra in such a manner, but I think it's a pretty safe bet. Most all wide area techniques like this have had chakra flowing all throughout them, such as Deidara's bombs which were on a cellular level, yet Sasuke still saw a cloud of the minuscule, bombs because of the chakra lining them.

only situation I could agree with, for the byakugan, not to be able to see through mist, is what you said: if the mist is a jutsu itself and is infused with the chakra, thus confusing the byakugan/sharingan eye who sees more chakra than the ninja bodies.

but if the mist is regular/natural mist, I don't see why it would confuse the byakugan too. The byakugan can see the body behind a boulder, I say it can see it in mist too.

Mikey
have have a point but really if you think about the parmeters set by each of the eyes
Sharigan has limtitaions and draw backs
Pain's eyes are yea god eyes
Neji's eyes have no draw backs and from the fact that he can pin point chakra nodes it has even been said that he can kill a person with the quickness and now that he can gate strike he can truly limit almost anything having to with chakra and taijutsu and if you say he can't stop sharigan then you haven't thought yet he kills chakra which is proven by Sasuke and Kakashi it requires chakra
Further more the only reason Neji has siezed to grow is that he isnolonger important to the story or yea he would be up there with the Sharigan and Pain's eyes

Oh and Neji loses to Pain hard...
Special mist chakra fused up the butt only way for it to confuse the eyes

I say jiraiya wins he pwned summon with his hair he can still do high class katon and rasengan his power is there without a doubt itachi feared him even before knowing of his hermit mode hell the whole aka knew he was a problem and nobody had idea of his hermit mode.

So it's pretty stupid to say with no proof that he can only beat oro with hermit mode actaully it's pathetic no offense when manga says total different.

not to mention nobody feared oro in aka they all wanted to kill him and were extremly confident he admitted to itachi being stronger then him and itachi said at best he would kill jiraiya at the cost of his own life as well.

Nope orochimaru without edo tensei is pretty weak really snake jutsu which would have no effect on a full health needle guardian not to metnion gamabuntan can use ninjutsu as well is pretty kick ass taijutsu with his sword.

Jiraiya has the kick ass katon we saw he can use toad silhouette and rasengan of course as well as needle guardian and super grand fire ball.

When he has oil around his katon go up way more in power as well.

Jiraiya wins this and manga proof back it up.


edit" not to mention hell swamp at full power.

Two things....1...just quote the part about my post that you are addressing and not the whole thing ^.^ This supports my statement about you being LAZY!!

and 2. HFX has already conceded that in all reality, Zabuza would kick his ass...he's just pointing out that Neji's abilities, and capabilities, as a logical thought out statement, would trump Zabuza...And although I disagree with him on that...that's what this argument is about...we all know that Zabuza would beat his ass senseless...just like Itachi would too lol. And he is well aware of this and has said as much already in a previous post.

OH LMAOOO i didn't read that part .

Healthy Orochimaru (no Edo Tensei but does have Manda) vs Jiraiya (no Hermit Mode, but has Gamabunta).

alright, I'd say Jiraya can win. If J and Gamabunta manage to avoid the poison from Manda, then J can do a swamp of the underworld again and have Manda figure how to get out without legs.
Gamabunta has more chances since he has arms and legs and the big sword. (plus in the tradition frog>snake)
And J has his (normal) rasengan. Don't remember, was the ultimate rasengan during hermit mode? And katon, and Gamabunta's oil, and can burn a lot.

And besides the Kusanagi, I don't remember many of Oro's jutsus, except edo lol, so:
Jira wins :D

Yep Jiraya would anhilate Oro with ease
But I think Itachi was trippin' that day because he had already used Mangekyo and was sortof weak and he probally was winded because he had already fought Kakashi

Mikey
have have a point but really if you think about the parmeters set by each of the eyes
Sharigan has limtitaions and draw backsThe only drawback I've seen from Sharingan is MS.

Pain's eyes are yea god eyesMkay.

Neji's eyes have no draw backs and from the fact that he can pin point chakra nodesHis pin pointing tenketsu is useless if he can't connect with the strikes.

it has even been said that he can kill a person with the quicknessWhich we have yet to see from Neji. It's also been said that Sharingan evolved from Byakugan, but that doesn't make it true.

and now that he can gate strike he can truly limit almost anything having to with chakra and taijutsuWhat the hell is a gate strike?

and if you say he can't stop sharigan then you haven't thought yetSharingan > Byakugan. Don't get me started.

he kills chakra which is proven by Sasuke and Kakashi it requires chakraNeji doesn't kill chakra. He's not Samehada. Can you please make some sense?

Further more the only reason Neji has siezed to grow is that he isnolonger important to the story or yea he would be up there with the Sharigan and Pain's eyesUm, no. There's a reason the doujutsu order goes as follows: Rinnegan > Sharingan > Byakugan.

@Mikey are you actually wastng your time arguing if neji can beat itachi lmfaooo and aren't you suppose to be at work.

@Mikey are you actually wastng your time arguing if neji can beat itachi lmfaooo and aren't you suppose to be at work.
No, you're right. I really shouldn't be doing this. Itachi's reputation alone speaks for itself.

I got off early. =\ + tomorrow off.

No, you're right. I really shouldn't be doing this. Itachi's reputation alone speaks for itself.

I got off early. =\ + tomorrow off.

Ohh how nice for you yes really you shouldn't debate him because neji is a loser and it's true lol.

Neji's a great taijutsu specialist. S'about it.

s'not about it. he's also a good tracker. woot. Plus it's interesting how his taijutsu is based on chakra, unlike Lee's.

Yes, but in an actual battle. how useful is tracking? :p The kind of tracking I'm thinking of, anyway.

Yeah, his style is totally defensive, while Lee's style is totally offensive. Neji plugs up chakra holes and can hit vital organs, while Lee can break stuff. :p

He's still got a pretty damn effective abilities that was enough to shock and even some of the jounins as well as the Hokage in the room. His style may be limited to taijutsu, but it's overall versatility in what it's capable of is pretty nice. Where as Lee is restricted to physical Taijutsu and 'breaking stuff' as you put it, Neji can shut down most anything with his style. He is not restricted by the physical aspects of Taijutsu, such as trying to punch a guy who's built like a rock.

Not to mention the countless other uses the Byakugan provides. Not just tracking, but the ability to remove obstacles such as 'surprise attacks' altogether. Which in a world where stealth and assassination...yea...The Byakugan is like the anti-shinobi in the classical respect since it removes such features. And the overall utility is just amazing when compared to everything else.


Anyone who can do average dodging yeah neji is pretty much useless if he can't hit you and his most deadly shit is when he touches you.

He can't beat what he can't hit.

First, thanks for clarifying, SM. I was only argueing based on abilities. I realize that in the series Zabuza would win, and probably even Haku, unless Kishi just wouldn't let Neji die. :p

As for the most recent arguement, I'd have to say Jiraiya. Gama and his combos would definitely beat Manda, or he could just use Hell swamp. After that it's basically Him and Gama Vs. Orochimaru, which I'm gonna go out and say that Orochimaru would be beaten.

Wow, I can't believe some of you are supporting Byakugan, first time for everything, Sharingan lovers. :p

Nah, Nami, I'm not Neji's #1 fan. Fakt Faktory has that title. XD I just argue it better than a lot of people.

Anyone who can do average dodging yeah neji is pretty much useless if he can't hit you and his most deadly shit is when he touches you.

He can't beat what he can't hit.

As for that, anyone who gets close to him is screwed. He doesn't have to make a direct hit. He can damage you just by coming close. check the Hinata Vs. Neji fight for info on this, but it works with glancing blows and even near misses. Even advanced dodging has shown to counter closely, and dodge and block. Even Itachi and Sasuke can be hit, they just counter and dodge well and closely. It's all a matter of how close Neji is, and if he gets into a hand to hand battle, it's all over.

First, thanks for clarifying, SM. I was only argueing based on abilities. I realize that in the series Zabuza would win, and probably even Haku, unless Kishi just wouldn't let Neji die. :p

As for the most recent arguement, I'd have to say Jiraiya. Gama and his combos would definitely beat Manda, or he could just use Hell swamp. After that it's basically Him and Gama Vs. Orochimaru, which I'm gonna go out and say that Orochimaru would be beaten.

Wow, I can't believe some of you are supporting Byakugan, first time for everything, Sharingan lovers. :p

Nah, Nami, I'm not Neji's #1 fan. Fakt Faktory has that title. XD I just argue it better than a lot of people.


As for that, anyone who gets close to him is screwed. He doesn't have to make a direct hit. He can damage you just by coming close. check the Hinata Vs. Neji fight for info on this, but it works with glancing blows and even near misses. Even advanced dodging has shown to counter closely, and dodge and block. Even Itachi and Sasuke can be hit, they just counter and dodge well and closely. It's all a matter of how close Neji is, and if he gets into a hand to hand battle, it's all over.

Ah that's the beuaty of kage bushinn you can send a bushin to hit neji while neji take it out with blazing speed itachi and sasuke can just murder neji or if he uses kaiten when he stops the high speed will kill him aswell.

Sasuke can use his sword and slice him or chidori him and itachi well tsukuyomi is enough or just use amaterasu and then i can pick up neji's eyes and send them to you as a birthday present lol.

I mean in part 2 you would have to be dead weak to not beat neji lmaoo j/p no but top dogs cannot be beat by neji these days.

I will look at neji different the day he beats somebody really powerful

Sasuke had deidara and potential itachi (i don't count oro cause he was already dead with or without sasuke killing him)

Naruto killed yuura and kakuzu took out 2 hearts at once and left the third for failure.

Neji- hasn't done shit yet lol.

Neji- hasn't done shit yet lol.
Not true. He beat Kidomaru.





....





























And he nearly killed Hinata.

Hinata! I consider that huge, because I hate her. :)

Not true. He beat Kidomaru.





....





























And he nearly killed Hinata.

Hinata! I consider that huge, because I hate her. :)

Oh right i forgot about kidamaru who is a loser and hinata who isn't even worht calling a loser.

Ok time for an actual match up.


Lee vs sasuke part 1 chunnin exams.

Damn, you had to go that way back? I don't even remember what his Sharingan was capable of back then, other than copying stuff.

Lee takes it. Chidori and all, and that new speed he got to match up against Lee's speed, Sasuke can't take Lee. Base, it'd be interesting to watch. But once Lee opens any gates, that's when Sasuke begins to fail. He doesn't have the stamina to keep up with Lee. As a matter of fact, I think all Lee really needs to do is wear Sasuke down, then go in for the kill. Then again, knowing Lee, he'll want to beat Sasuke down in a flashy way and end up over doing it. >.>

Damn, you had to go that way back? I don't even remember what his Sharingan was capable of back then, other than copying stuff.

Lee takes it. Chidori and all, and that new speed he got to match up against Lee's speed, Sasuke can't take Lee. Base, it'd be interesting to watch. But once Lee opens any gates, that's when Sasuke begins to fail. He doesn't have the stamina to keep up with Lee. As a matter of fact, I think all Lee really needs to do is wear Sasuke down, then go in for the kill. Then again, knowing Lee, he'll want to beat Sasuke down in a flashy way and end up over doing it. >.>

I agree sasuke wouldn't stand a chance he did get lee's speed through copying his shit but he cannot sustain it for long because his stamina is low.

Lee can pretty much beat him without gates jutsu plain weight less speed and that's all chidori would be a cinch for him to avoid.

Ahh yeah the fight is stupid.

Ok how about.

Lee vs neji chunnin exams

I agree sasuke wouldn't stand a chance he did get lee's speed through copying his shit but he cannot sustain it for long because his stamina is low.I never got that. How the hell did Sasuke COPY speed? I'd like to think he trained with Kakashi for it. Wasn't it that he simply copied Lee's taijutsu style? Meh.

Lee can pretty much beat him without gates jutsu plain weight less speed and that's all chidori would be a cinch for him to avoid.Yeah, I don't see how Sasuke is landing that Chidori on Lee. Like, at all.

Ahh yeah the fight is stupid.

Ok how about.

Lee vs neji chunnin examsI'm not touching this one. I'll end up being here all night. :p

I never got that. How the hell did Sasuke COPY speed? I'd like to think he trained with Kakashi for it. Wasn't it that he simply copied Lee's taijutsu style? Meh.

Yeah, I don't see how Sasuke is landing that Chidori on Lee. Like, at all.

I'm not touching this one. I'll end up being here all night. :p

I will touch it.

Lee wins once he opens 5 gates no defense in the world can save neji if his rotation failed against a bit of kyuubi juice speed he is done once gates open hell he doesn't need gates just plain with out weights speed gai himself said high speed combo's can lay neji out.

I find it curious how Orochi can be so 'scared' of Itachi but not Jiraiya when, from everything we've seen, Jiraiya is the top dog.

Itachi admittedly couldn't beat him without going down with the ship himself.

Orochimaru admittedly couldn't beat Itachi.

Yet, for all that we have seen, Orochimaru has been admitted to be stronger, doesn't fear Jiraiya at all, and even in their past battles, Orochimaru has apparently always come out on top (two vs one Sannin battle being the only exception)

Isn't it odd? It makes me think that we really haven't seen Oro go all out...something that no big baddie should die without doing. So I'm guessing either Oro really will be making a come back, or there is something of a plot hole here.
Orochimaru just doesn't have what it takes to counter Sharingan genjutsu while Jiraiya apparently does... It's the only thing I could come up with besides Itachi not wanting to overuse his eyes... I mean we've found out that anyone could dodge Ameratsu all it takes is a simple replacement jutsu(damn I'm an ass).

Whats sad is Orochimaru casted genjutsu in the forest of death. You'd think he'd at least be adept in methods of countering genjutsu sense he has the ability to use it. Master of all known jutsu... such a failed dream...

Orochimaru doesn't fear Jiraiya because whenever they fought in the past Orochimaru would win. Granted learning about what Jiraiya can due in battle it seems to me like Jiraiya may have been holding back.

Casting genjutsu doesn't automatically mean the caster must know of ways to counter them, especially Sharingan ones. :p

I agree with V only reason oro wasn't scared is perhaps he is judging from past and we all know that jiraiya was always holding back since he already had hermit mode when he was young.

He is like sasuke naruto could have killed him but chose not to same thing most likley happened in this case..


But in reality jiraiya proved base form and hermit that he can kill oro why do you think he was so eager to get in on saru vs oro he wanted to save sarutobi by killing oro.

Casting genjutsu doesn't automatically mean the caster must know of ways to counter them, especially Sharingan ones. :p
But Mikey I mean really... Jiraiya should have known ways... Even Deidara built his eye around countering sharingan genjutsu. Yet the genius Orochimaru who's life ambition is to learn all known jutsu can't counter it. Thats just sad to me.

But Mikey I mean really... Jiraiya should have known ways... Even Deidara built his eye around countering sharingan genjutsu. Yet the genius Orochimaru who's life ambition is to learn all known jutsu can't counter it. Thats just sad to me.

Actually jiraiya easily saw through the genjutsu of sharingan when itachi used it on that woman he isn't an idiot he knows way to counter strong genjutsu.

Actually jiraiya easily saw through the genjutsu of sharingan when itachi used it on that woman he isn't an idiot he knows way to counter strong genjutsu.
Wasn't saying he didn't Nami but thank you for that example I almost forgot about it.

Actually jiraiya easily saw through the genjutsu of sharingan when itachi used it on that woman he isn't an idiot he knows way to counter strong genjutsu.You consider the genjutsu used on that regular pedestrian woman strong? :p

You consider the genjutsu used on that regular pedestrian woman strong? :p

HE USED IT WITH HIS SHARINGAN MEANING IT WAS A DOJUTSU GENJUTSU and it was intended to keep jiraiya away what doyou think it was weak and noticeable.

You consider the genjutsu used on that regular pedestrian woman strong? :p
Not strong per say but Jiraiya did see through it. That's just a small example of Jiraiya actually having the abilities required to counter genjutsu. Also the training talks with Naruto about genjutsu is another example. And then there's the fact that Itachi ran from Jiraiya. Also Jiraiya has one of the most deadly(if not deadliest) genjutsu we've seen yet. Remember sound genjutsu is said to be the most dangerous one among the five senses.

HE USED IT WITH HIS SHARINGANHow do you know? :)

MEANING IT WAS A DOJUTSU GENJUTSUI'll wait for you to show where it was shown or stated that the genjutsu Itachi used on that normal woman was Sharingan based.

and it was intended to keep jiraiya awayUh, yeah. To distract him.

what doyou think it was weak and noticeable.Hm. I don't know. Just how strong was it? I mean, the genjutsu itself was probably meant to have the woman seduce him as a distraction. I kind of giggled at the thought that, a woman that attractive would never go for him, so he quickly knew something was up. :p

Not strong per say but Jiraiya did see through it.Indeed.

That's just a small example of Jiraiya actually having the abilities required to counter genjutsu.Counter? The woman was in the genjutsu, not him. He most likely dispelled it.

Counter? The woman was in the genjutsu, not him. He most likely dispelled it.
It doesn't matter it still shows Jiraiya having knowledge about genjutsu removal & dude comment on my full post not just one part lol. You're sounding like a nit picker right now. Are you agreeing with everything else besides that one part?

It doesn't matter it still shows Jiraiya having knowledge about genjutsu removalI didn't say he didn't know about that sort of thing. XD

& dude comment on my full post not just one part lol. You're sounding like a nit picker right now.I'm just being technical here. :p

Are you agreeing with everything else besides that one part?What do you think?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/147/04/

Opps shit happens mikey there it is right from the sharingan and last i checked itachi has never used any weak ass pathetic genjutsu he is genjutsu king and this was dojutsu genjutsu.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/147/04/

Opps shit happens mikey there it is right from the sharingan and last i checked itachi has never used any weak ass pathetic genjutsu he is genjutsu king and this was dojutsu genjutsu.Ah, cool. That still doesn't exactly prove that it was some sort of uber genjutsu, though. Why would Itachi use some uber zomg genjutsu on a simple woman to do a simple task like distracting Jiraiya? It's not like the stronger the genjutsu, the better the effect. In this case, she was just meant to distract, that's all.

Ah, cool. That still doesn't exactly prove that it was some sort of uber genjutsu, though. Why would Itachi use some uber zomg genjutsu on a simple woman to do a simple task like distracting Jiraiya? It's not like the stronger the genjutsu, the better the effect. In this case, she was just meant to distract, that's all.

Of course the stronger the better if had been weak it would be very noticeable and jiraiya would appear sooner ah well i proved my point.

Of course the stronger the better if had been weak it would be very noticeable and jiraiya would appear sooner ah well i proved my point.
The only thing you proved was that it was Sharingan genjutsu. =\ You haven't proven it was strong genjutsu. You shouldn't assume just because it comes from a certain someone, it must be a zomg genjutsu.

Besides, Jiraiya sucks anyway. Itachi would beat his ass down at any point. And Itachi being semi-blind is a positive for him, so he doesn't have to look at Jiraiya's Hermit Mode ugly ass. XD

The only thing you proved was that it was Sharingan genjutsu. =\ You haven't proven it was strong genjutsu. You shouldn't assume just because it comes from a certain someone, it must be a zomg genjutsu.

Besides, Jiraiya sucks anyway. Itachi would beat his ass down at any point. And Itachi being semi-blind is a positive for him, so he doesn't have to look at Jiraiya's Hermit Mode ugly ass. XD

that's very nice to badd itachi is scared shit less of him and ran like the bitch that he is ha ha.

Ok i am doen here later.

The only thing you proved was that it was Sharingan genjutsu. =\ You haven't proven it was strong genjutsu. You shouldn't assume just because it comes from a certain someone, it must be a zomg genjutsu.

Besides, Jiraiya sucks anyway. Itachi would beat his ass down at any point. And Itachi being semi-blind is a positive for him, so he doesn't have to look at Jiraiya's Hermit Mode ugly ass. XD
Itachi's strongest move got dodged with a replacement jutsu.. Best there is no, overrated by you yes.

that's very nice to badd itachi is scared shit less of him and ran like the bitch that he is ha ha.

Ok i am doen here later.
DAMNIT. You didn't fall for my trolling attempy! >=[

All right, a real fight.

Post TS Naruto and Sasuke vs Kakashi and Yamato. =o

DAMNIT. You didn't fall for my trolling attempy! >=[

All right, a real fight.

Post TS Naruto and Sasuke vs Kakashi and Yamato. =o
4T allowed?

No, 3 tails are allowed, and CS2 is allowed. So is MS.

No, 3 tails are allowed, and CS2 is allowed. So is MS.
Can Sasuke summon lighting from the sky? If not I'll wait till next week before doing this fight :p

Can Sasuke summon lighting from the sky?When has he ever been able to do that? o_O

Keep in mind, if I sound ignorant, it's because I probably haven't seen any of the prediction spoiler pictures. :p

When has he ever been able to do that? o_O

Keep in mind, if I sound ignorant, it's because I probably haven't seen any of the prediction spoiler pictures. :p
Hehehe thats my prediction for next week. Purely an assumption I came up with from looking at the last page of this weeks chapter.

Oh.

Well, then no. :p Sasuke can't summon lightning from the skies.

Post TS Naruto and Sasuke vs Kakashi and Yamato.

Hmmm... hard to say really... All four of these fighters are pretty badass in my opinion. I guess it all comes down to which have the abilities to win & how well they'd do as a team. I won't go on to long with this simply because I want to see what others have to say about this fight. So I'll start by saying Naruto & Sasuke have the power to beat Kakashi & Yamato. However Kakashi & Yamato would work better as a team. Team work matched up against two top dogs who like fighting alone... Hmmm I'll go with team work for now.

Yes, abilities and hax aside, remember that experience also plays a role in this. :p

Yes, abilities and hax aside, remember that experience also plays a role in this. :p
I just see Naruto & Sasuke clashing while Kakashi & Yamato would work together. Yamato has the ability to take out Naruto as does Kakashi. I'm not saying Naruto is a push over or anything. But really it's Sasuke who would give these two a hard time if it came down to a one on one. But if Kakashi were to stall for Yamato by constantly going after Sasuke. This would allow Yamato time to suppress Naruto & knock him out. Leaving Kakashi & Yamato vs. Sasuke. Sasuke could genjutsu Yamato but could he do the same to Kakashi? I doubt it... Itachi had to use Tsukiyomi to take down Kakashi with genjutsu. Sasuke does not know this.

Edit: I'm trying to wait for someone else to post a comment before adding to my post... No one has opinions about this fight?

I see Sasuke really going after Yamato if he learns that he can fully suppress Kyuubi. =o Which, Sasuke probably would learn, since Yamato himself told Naruto he can, and I doubt Naruto would be dumb enough to keep that kind of information from Sasuke.

kakashi and yamato no chance of sasuke/naruto winnning they would argue too much and work against eachother and kakashi and yamato two previous anbu members would be able to use that against them very well would be the bell test all over again with two guys instead of one to fight

The bell test was when they were children. They're not children anymore, nor do they have the mindsets of children. Sasuke has worked well with Team 7 and with Team Snake, as Naruto has worked well with Team 7 and New Team 7. I don't see the teamwork factor being against them.

I see Sasuke really going after Yamato if he learns that he can fully suppress Kyuubi. =o Which, Sasuke probably would learn, since Yamato himself told Naruto he can, and I doubt Naruto would be dumb enough to keep that kind of information from Sasuke.
But would Sasuke be willing to help Naruto? Yes I know it's a week counter. But I can see Kakashi & Yamato planing it out so Sasuke & Naruto are separated. With Yamato handling Naruto while Kakashi keeps Sasuke busy. Sasuke's ego would prevent him from even wanting to help Naruto in my opinion.

Though you're right if Sasuke can work with Naruto in this they'd win. Switching opponents is a good example. Because Naruto would do better against Kakashi when compared to Yamato.

@wnxwolfo; yeah I kind of see that happening too. Yes they were great together in team 7 but those bonds aren't as strong as they use to be. Sasuke has this go at it alone attitude now as does Naruto. While Kakashi & Yamato were in Anbu together & no doubt have battle strategies based on each fighters abilities.

Naruto and sasuke would murder them well not murder but beat them when these 2 kids get together their team work needs no comunication it's like they has esp and know what the other is thinking.

Not to metnion if naruto isin genjutsu sasuke can easily break it cs2 3 tails wow i don't even wanna open my mouth.

3 tails against kakashi and cs2 against yamato i say it this way because cs2 sasuke will keep yamato busy while kakashi fights a 3 tailed naruto.

The chakra basts alone can kill him sorry but my boy naruto and ex secon fav sasuke win.

Yamato > Naruto...the only problem is Sasuke with his nasty Cs2. Together, Kakashi and Yamato would murder them because of teamwork and experience...Naruto has no skill and experiene to even touch Sasuke, Kakashi, or Yamato. Even if Naruto went 3T, Yamato would suppress his chakra...and seeing that Sasuke has just entered the scene, he wouldn't know, and Naruto would be too dumb to tell him. Making it easier for Yamato and Kakashi to take the win.

We're also forgetting that Naruto has seen Yamato's method of suppressing Kyuubi, and won't just stand around. :p It'd be a very smart tactic for Naruto to inform Sasuke of Yamato's suppressing abilities.

Also, nice post, Nami. :D

If Yamato can suppress Naruto in 4TK, i believe he could do anything, and I doubt Kakashi would stand around and let Sasuke close in on Yamato. Also using his wood, it's possible to be a long-mid-close range fighter with roots and trees. Naruto isn't that fast, and he'd be soon entangled in Yamato's roots. Meanwhile Kakashi and Sasuke would probably toe to toe.

@Mikey
Naruto isn't that smart lol. He'd probably forget.

I don't see how Naruto would forget such an important piece of information like that. Something that would determine whether he gets to use his biggest powerup during a fight. O_O

Or, he could simply try and fight in base form. I didn't say he'd start off with 3 tails and Sasuke in CS2. But the tails are there if he needs'em.

Edit: If Kakashi and Yamato were smart, they'd have Kakashi face off against Sasuke, while Yamato takes on Naruto. But yeah, Naruto knows what Yamato can do to his hax, so I think he'd tell Sasuke quickly. Just, you know, kind of inform him of the situation at hand. Kind of like what Shikamaru did with Temari when she saved him against Tayuya.

@Kong you don't know what the heck you are rambling about .

You assume naruto would match up against yamato and akashi vs sasuke naruto isn't a retarded person he will know that yamato knows how to supress chakra and how he did it.

He inform sasuke this second yamato will be put up against sasuke cs2 while kakashi is against naruto 3 tails kakashi wouldn't be able to take on 3tails naruto to fast and the chakra of naruto pretty much protects him against any attack.

Not to mention he is most likely 100x faster then kakashi in this state sasuke would be 2 quick for yamato cs2 is to much for him to handle not to mention sasuke's and naruto's team work doesn't need any comunication cause manga proves that they easily know what to do.

Now with naruto Rs he would be as deadly as ever if he outsmarted a guy who fought shodai hokage whom mya i add couldn't be outsmarted by kakashi and whom may i add naruto outsmarted akashi as well.

Sasuke's katon can pretty much take care of mokuton not to mention yamato will have a hard time even without sasuke going cs2 with the countless genjutsu which i am sure wouldn't affect yaamto but still distract him sasuke is quick enough to land a couple of hits on kakashi with naruto before yamato breaks free.

I am sorry but naruto 3 tails and sasuke cs2 will flat out beat these guys.

That's right, even more of an advantage here. Sasuke's katon can most likely just burn through Yamato's wood. And well, Sasuke's raiton stuff is lethal, and I'm sure it wouldn't have much of a problem busting through his wood also. Then there's the whole super speed and Sharingan genjutsu stuff. :p Kakashi's recognised Naruto as surppassing him, so that's an automatic advantage there. Naruto is familiar with Kakashi and his ways. I believe he can be clever and trick Kakashi into letting his guard down.

Then as far as I see it, the only problem is Sasuke. Kakashi or Yamato IMO could wipe out Naruto. Yamato could stay mid or long range with mokuton, and Kakashi...would use sharingan. Sasuke is the only real threat in base form and Cs2, and Naruto could be a handful if Kyuubi, but I doubt Yamato would allow it to happen.

Then as far as I see it, the only problem is Sasuke. Kakashi or Yamato IMO could wipe out Naruto. Yamato could stay mid or long range with mokuton, and Kakashi...would use sharingan. Sasuke is the only real threat in base form and Cs2, and Naruto could be a handful if Kyuubi, but I doubt Yamato would allow it to happen.
Don't underestimate Naruto lol. Bad things happen when ninjas underestimate him. :p He's the most unpredictable ninja for a reason, yo.