So..my older brother has this program where he teaches the neighborhood and w/e about African American history and what not and some injustices or whatever...me and my brother are complete opposites i guess you can say because we both have controdicting ideas about certain injustices...He and this other lady are sort of black activists and they seem to think that blacks are treated worse than whites (rights wise) he feels that we dont have the same opportunities as whites when it comes to geting to jobs and going to college...i agreed with him somewhat but i thought that he was blowing it out of proporsion as to where blacks cant do anything, when i proove him wrong constantly by showing that black people can do the same as whites.He thinks that blacks should be seen as a seperate nation because of the racist people in power who discriminate against blacks,(so we can run ourselves therefore we cant be discriminated against....and i feel that we just need to try harder to get certain things right now cuz thts just the way it its right now and over time it will fix itself.and we feel we shouldnt have to work harder.
Than something about the army came up and i said im going in 2 years when i turn 18 and he and this other lady start saying how black people shouldnt join the army because the government has done nothing for blacks.And i just thought that was real ignorant.

well i just wanted know what you guys thought and who you think is right..or if you have a differnt opinion?

Your brother and his lady friend sound like a couple of tools (no offense). Yes, especially that last part, was quite ignorant. He pretty much just sounds like someone who wants to stir shit up for some reason.

i feel the same way....i think he is following in the footsteps of malcolm X in the way he want everything to be...i cant decide whos right or wrong because im still young and havnt experienced as much yet but i think some people just see everything as whats bad happening to you and not trying to see any good.

i feel the same way....i think he is following in the footsteps of malcolm X in the way he want everything to be...i cant decide whos right or wrong because im still young and havnt experienced as much yet but i think some people just see everything as whats bad happening to you and not trying to see any good.
Yes, he does seem to be focusing on the negatives and not the positives. So, is he trying to actually change things for blacks in America? Because, well, he makes it sound as if in this day and age, things are the way they were long ago. And they're not.

Thats almost exactly what i told him yesterday at the meeting thing and he just says that things really arnt differnt because all of the main people in power are racist and try and keep us down....and than he says its the governments fault why a lot of blacks are in bad nieghborhoods,when i say its not the governments fault because its not up to the government if one goes to college and finishes school..and does what he has to do for a better life...i feels that we shouldnt have to try that little bit harder to get something a white person could get with less effort...i think thats the wrong way to think.

^Just out of curiousity, not saying you're right or wrong, but could you give some examples in which black people have to exert more effort into getting something compared to white people?

Because I can only really think of things that are easier for some minorities to get in comparison to whites, to be honest. I'm guessing you'd say something like getting hired for a job because of the possibility of the employer being a racist, but the same thing could happen if a white person applies to a minority owner's business. Or the business owner might not like fat people, or people with tattoos, etc. There is laws against this type of discrimination too. It's just unavoidable sometimes, but it's certainly not something that happens exclusively to any one particular group of people.

Wait, so your brother is trying to support seggragation? I mean seperating blacks from the white community is not helping at all. Its not completely fair to say that Government as a whole is keeping blacks down.

but could you give some examples in which black people have to exert more effort into getting something compared to white people?

You mean Affirmative Action right? I'm black or some one of African descent, and I'm not all that into Affirmative Action myself. I mean it helps even the playing field, but how its used is quite nasty. Its been banned in Michigan though, were I live. I mean the idea sounds nice, but it also makes us minorities feel like we are nothing but tools of the government. It also makes us feel as though we need handouts.

Because I can only really think of things that are easier for some minorities to get in comparison to whites, to be honest. I'm guessing you'd say something like getting hired for a job because of the possibility of the employer being a racist, but the same thing could happen if a white person applies to a minority owner's business.

Even though Affirmative Action is not one of the things I particularily like, it helps even the playing field. A lot of blacks usually don't have the opportunity to go to college or get into a good school. Some black families are still suffering economic wise from the past. Its not really even at all. Of course America's system got much better, but its still not as good as it should be.

Affirmative Action allows "special treatment" in a sense. Here is an example: A white person gets a 3.9 grade point average, a black person gets a 3.4 grade point average, if trying to apply for a college, usually, the black person would fill that last seat. That's basically how it works. Although there are some other examples and types of Affirmative Action that exists.

But we also have to look at it this way. The total black population of America is about 13%, Latino is about 15%, Native Americans probably 5-6%, Asian maybe 4%, Arabic maybe 5-10%. The average of the White population is much greater as their chances for success is usuall higher than those of immigrants and or minorities. So Affirmative Action is somewhat needed.

This is one of those darksides of Affirmative Action:

Some Companies need specific amount of blacks and minorities to receive the correct percentage of money. If the quotas are not met, they lose specific funding. SO sometimes they just take any ol minority, some are uneducated. So this could be were the conflict begins and how minorites could be used as tools. America needs to try harder, I mean blacks are not weak, but we must work at it as well.

http://www.nathanielturner.com/stateofblackamerica.htm

This link here shows that America needs to improve its system and Blacks need to work harder if we want to have an easier time in America.

People like that really annoy me. They just use America's racist past and the few racists remaining today as an excuse to bitch and whine about whatever goes wrong in their lives. They've really got no reason to complain, yet they do anyway. I'm not racist or against blacks or anything, but racism shouldn't be used as an excuse to hide behind.

Its not that they have no reason.thats what i thought too at first. But they both have experienced life changing raceism recently and thats why they are upset.For example the lady there said that she recently graduated at the top of her class (#3 i think)in a good college...had lots of recommendations scored high on many tests,and won many academic contests..and when she applied to some job(i forgot what it was it was high paying though) and than she was denied by some white guy and accepted another white guy with a less impessive resume.And my argument was that she cant just quit because of that and she needs to keep trying..but she feels she was wrong and shouldnt have to try harder than a white person they should be equal.

^ If the white guy didnt accept her cuz shes black then I cant think of any other else than him being either a racist...or maybe its just gender...would help to know what the job is...maybe they require some muscle for whatever it is that only men are best for and not females. If you say that a black guy tried to apply for the job the girl tried to get into and wasnt accepted in either...then hes a racist and must be nailed on both hands and feet on a cross.

You mean Affirmative Action right? I'm black or some one of African descent, and I'm not all that into Affirmative Action myself. I mean it helps even the playing field, but how its used is quite nasty. Its been banned in Michigan though, were I live. I mean the idea sounds nice, but it also makes us minorities feel like we are nothing but tools of the government. It also makes us feel as though we need handouts.

Nah, I meant situations in which minorities exert more effort into obtaining something in comparison to whites.

Even though Affirmative Action is not one of the things I particularily like, it helps even the playing field. A lot of blacks usually don't have the opportunity to go to college or get into a good school. Some black families are still suffering economic wise from the past. Its not really even at all. Of course America's system got much better, but its still not as good as it should be.

And whites don't suffer economically? Even in this situation, special treatment based on race is wrong. If we're going to help people out economically, we should do it based on their economic situation and not on their skin color. As it is now, blacks have all the same opportunities as whites in regard to economic assistance, plus things like black only scholarships and the like. That's just (like you said) special treatment based on skin color, which isn't something that's going to promote equality.

But we also have to look at it this way. The total black population of America is about 13%, Latino is about 15%, Native Americans probably 5-6%, Asian maybe 4%, Arabic maybe 5-10%. The average of the White population is much greater as their chances for success is usuall higher than those of immigrants and or minorities. So Affirmative Action is somewhat needed.

Why? What's it matter? Is there some white only agenda that we've got to protect people against?


http://www.nathanielturner.com/stateofblackamerica.htm

This link here shows that America needs to improve its system and Blacks need to work harder if we want to have an easier time in America.

Those statistics really don't mean much of anything, honestly. They certainly don't show that blacks aren't being given equal opportunities. Almost all of that can be accounted by poverty levels, which definitely isn't black exclusive. Again, special treatment isn't needed. Just helping everyone, regardless of race, with their poor economic situations is still a much better option. No one should be striving for special treatment because of their race, ever. As long as that type of mentality exists there will never be equality in regards to race.

yes but if the problem is that racism is still a problem and it happens fairly often and there is nothing that we can do but have things like affirmative action if we dont the racist people in power will make it harder for other races to get into those positions or any other position.

yes but if the problem is that racism is still a problem and it happens fairly often and there is nothing that we can do but have things like affirmative action if we dont the racist people in power will make it harder for other races to get into those positions or any other position.

And how is special treatment based on skin color going to help this, but striving for equality isn't? And that's a bullshit excuse anyway. What if I apply to a business that's owned by a non-white? Should I get special treatment because my would-be employer could potentially be a racist? Based on the logic you're going by I definitely should, but it won't happen because there happens to be more people who share a similar skin color as me in our country.

Should there be laws against any kind of discrimination in regards to race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc.? Yeah, definitely. Should we treat people differently based solely on their skin color? Fuck no. And hell, I'll go as far as to say that anyone who wants special treatment based solely on skin color has no right to bitch about not being treated equally. It's either be treated differently or be treated equally, you can't have both.

I find this humorous when the most popular democratic candidate, in my opinion anyway, is Barack Obama. edit: its actually Hilary clinton. But thats still far for a society that hates all black people.

Note that he is getting death threats. I am going to assume racism is the key to this. Racism still exists, this should be known.

The other thing is, I don't like affirmative action because it specifies minorities. In my opinion, they should have done as Miburo said. This will slowly level the playing field and it will also help other families that are not black at the same time.

@ miburo.
i understand but statistics wise there r more white owned buisness' that lack african american employees rather than the other way around.and w/o things like affirmitive action than racial equality would be farther away.It wont be thier forever but it will probably be there untill things improve enough to stop it. (btw im not 100% supportive 4 affirmitive action i just think its goals r good)

He thinks that blacks should be seen as a seperate nation because of the racist people in power who discriminate against blacks,(so we can run ourselves therefore we cant be discriminated against....and i feel that we just need to try harder to get certain things right now cuz thts just the way it its right now and over time it will fix itself.and we feel we shouldnt have to work harder.

Okay, thats the most stupid thing I have ever heard. America is being ruined by politicaly correctness. We're constintly walking on egg shells with every god damn breath. Oh cant say nigger, but hey those black poeple can. Thats perfectly fare. I once saw this award show for like all black people, b.e.t, black stars. Jesus christ, if a white person did any of that they would be hung with their own intestints. I think this is stupid, white people are the devil, no we're not god damn i hate people that preach like that. Look at al sharpten and the talk show guy. He said "nappy headed hoe" lets not shit ourselvs people, he appologised multiple times, but no. Thats racist cause their black and hes white. Whatever this is stupid.

Damn scarecrow good fucking point.
Yeah they can say nigger, but we can't....yeah that's real nice! Nobody ever says black people are racist, oh no, it's the white devil.

I believe that Affirmative Action is really doing more harm then it is helping. Look at what it does in a promotion situation, 2 guys go for a job. Say both have same qualifications, the black guy gets the job. What does that do, now your not hiring another guy, because hes white. Isnt that really defeating the point.
In another situation at Michagan(sucks, go buckeyes)University they were allowing black kids in with a 3.1, when you were supposed to have a 3.5-3.6, is that fair.
why is it just black people that are getting this favortism, i doubt this applies to the hispanic community, even though they are the biggest minority group now.

@ last 3 posters, i see where your comin from but its because history shows that in the past if a white person were to have somthin promoting white power it would usually represent something racist and killing other races and as for black people when they do it there is no history in people saying black power and promoting the killing of other races so its a double standard. And in the nigger word...i hate when people use that because no1 says nigger they say "nigga" its a completely differnt word...mabey a little while ago if a white person were to call a black guy nigga even in a friendly way it would be taken as an insult because there was much more tension then but now that the word has evolved no1 takes it offensive anymore...i know lots of non black people who say that word...i honestly havnt gone a day w/o hearing that word and i have yet to see a black person react negativley...and the only reason i can see that happening is if a white guy calls him that word in a negative way.

So are you saying is black people should be treated better than whites because of slavey and the kkk ( dealing with the affirmative action issue). Dealing with the "n"word white people should know that they cant say that word, neither should blacks. But thats getting into another thread. Oh and the black panther party was known to be pretty racist and were often called the black kkk, back then

^^read my first post.


p.s i dont support black panthers.

@ miburo.
i understand but statistics wise there r more white owned buisness' that lack african american employees rather than the other way around.and w/o things like affirmitive action than racial equality would be farther away.It wont be thier forever but it will probably be there untill things improve enough to stop it. (btw im not 100% supportive 4 affirmitive action i just think its goals r good)

No, I really don't think you do understand. There are more white people than black people. Big freaking deal. Look at it this way:

Let's say that out of every 100 people 90 are blue and 10 are red. Now there's a company with ten management positions, nine of which are held by blues and only one manager is red. OMG RACI4L INEQUALITY AMIRITE? Of course not, it makes sense because there's more fricken blues then reds.

Now same scenario except all then managers are blue. Now that's fricken unfair, right? Again, no, it's prefectly fair. Equality doesn't mean your race has the same statistical success as every one else, just that every individual is given the same opportunity for success. And by this I mean that no individual is at a disadvantage based on the color of his or her skin.

This means all your stupid statistics mean absolutely jack shit, of course (Which is usually the case with statistics anyway, so no worries. ^^). It doesn't matter if blacks as a whole don't do as well as another group. What matters is that they're given the same opportunities to do well, and that the individuals of any particular race aren't at a disadvantage because of skin color (Something statistics don't show, btw. There being more rich white people doesn't mean shit to me personally, and it certainly doesn't mean I've got a better chance of becoming rich over anyone else.). Unless you can show that every individual black person is at some sort of disadvantage in comparison to everyone else because of skin color, you've got absolutely no backing to support your stance. In fact, I could easily show that every individual black person has an ADVANTAGE over individual white people in regards to a lot of things. I'd kill for extra ways to get scholarship money just because I happen to have a specific skin color, for example. Don't let meaningless statistics cloud your vision, dude.

i feel the same way....i think he is following in the footsteps of malcolm X in the way he want everything to be...i cant decide whos right or wrong because im still young and havnt experienced as much yet but i think some people just see everything as whats bad happening to you and not trying to see any good.
no one said you have to decide this all now nor from what others tell you...i suggest you try to experience things yourself and go on from there rather than asking people how you should feel about this since different people rely on their own past experiences...

and for clarification:
the black panther party wasn't all entirely hostile and violent...in the past some were...but not to the extent of KKK, so I don't think calling them the "black KKK" is a good comparison...
http://www.blackpanther.org/legacynew.htm

since i live in and was born in oakland, i know a lot about this group and today, they are not the same as before...they are not hostile at all.

I think your brother might be living in another era. People get equal rights now. It really depends on how you act and dress. His lady friend sounds like she might be a bit racist against white people. I myself don't care what skin color you are, if you're cool, I'll hang out with you. People are always talking about racism, but now its turning away from blacks and toward muslims.

Miburo will become famous soon enoughMiburo will become famous soon enough

Re: Confused(blacks in america
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachiuchiha View Post
@ miburo.
i understand but statistics wise there r more white owned buisness' that lack african american employees rather than the other way around.and w/o things like affirmitive action than racial equality would be farther away.It wont be thier forever but it will probably be there untill things improve enough to stop it. (btw im not 100% supportive 4 affirmitive action i just think its goals r good)
No, I really don't think you do understand. There are more white people than black people. Big freaking deal. Look at it this way:

Let's say that out of every 100 people 90 are blue and 10 are red. Now there's a company with ten management positions, nine of which are held by blues and only one manager is red. OMG RACI4L INEQUALITY AMIRITE? Of course not, it makes sense because there's more fricken blues then reds.

Now same scenario except all then managers are blue. Now that's fricken unfair, right? Again, no, it's prefectly fair. Equality doesn't mean your race has the same statistical success as every one else, just that every individual is given the same opportunity for success. And by this I mean that no individual is at a disadvantage based on the color of his or her skin.

This means all your stupid statistics mean absolutely jack shit, of course (Which is usually the case with statistics anyway, so no worries. ^^). It doesn't matter if blacks as a whole don't do as well as another group. What matters is that they're given the same opportunities to do well, and that the individuals of any particular race aren't at a disadvantage because of skin color (Something statistics don't show, btw. There being more rich white people doesn't mean shit to me personally, and it certainly doesn't mean I've got a better chance of becoming rich over anyone else.). Unless you can show that every individual black person is at some sort of disadvantage in comparison to everyone else because of skin color, you've got absolutely no backing to support your stance. In fact, I could easily show that every individual black person has an ADVANTAGE over individual white people in regards to a lot of things. I'd kill for extra ways to get scholarship money just because I happen to have a specific skin color, for example. Don't let meaningless statistics cloud your vision, dude.


...thats how i explained i felt in my first post guy...im just saying that you cant pretend discrimination doesnt happen anymore and that it doesnt happen more to blacks than it does to whites...thats all im saying im not saying we should be treated differntly because of this i am just saying that this is a fact of life and i feel people are trying to disproove that dicrimination isnt still around..and i know its not there as much thats why i started the thread in the first place im just saying it still does play a small role.im note saying we should be treated differntly...i think in my first post or one of my previous ones i said.."i know we are equal and my brother is the one saying we arnt" thats the argument of the thread.




and @ kina ..yea techinically people get equal right ..but in reality because of certain people its almost as if we arnt..i think thats the point my brother was making..and i was saying its true to some extent but not to one where we cant overcome it with a little bit of effort.

Then it only those certin people. People like that shouldn't be in office anyway. A poiliticain should have an open mind. Your brother shoulds like he's exaggartaing big time.What would people have against blacks anyway?

I am going to disagree with Miburo, statistics do present useful evidence, but only to people who actually know how to use them:


Let's say that out of every 100 people 90 are blue and 10 are red. Now there's a company with ten management positions, nine of which are held by blues and only one manager is red. OMG RACI4L INEQUALITY AMIRITE? Of course not, it makes sense because there's more fricken blues then reds.

Now same scenario except all then managers are blue. Now that's fricken unfair, right? Again, no, it's prefectly fair. Equality doesn't mean your race has the same statistical success as every one else, just that every individual is given the same opportunity for success. And by this I mean that no individual is at a disadvantage based on the color of his or her skin.

Of course, you are completely right. But lets say this was true for 2 companies. Not really anything wrong right? How about 3? How about 5? How about 10? How about 100? In that many trials, these things do become relevant. Now, modern statistics can't go that far back because 2000 is a bit different than 1970. But how much? Only statistics will give you that. I have not done enough study to actually confirm it in either way. But it is quite possible to not have a lot of headway.

Now, according to my friend (only a freshman in high school) who has done a bit more study in Affirmative Action than me, it has definitely helped the black middle class population tremendously. Now I am not saying that they couldn't have risen by themselves, but it is still difficult to do so. Could this have been answered by segregating based on economics? Maybe. But I am definitely tired of seeing such segregated schools. For example, my class has no black people as graduate. Our whole school probably has 20 people as black. Now what is that? 20/900? 2/90? Even if black people like to stick together, thats some crazy number. And its not just this suburbia either. It probably extends to 6 more high schools around this one. Additionally, this number wouldn't even be that high normally, these black people just recently came to our school.

Its definitely not because they don't want to come.

I am going to disagree with Miburo,

Auto-fail. ; )

statistics do present useful evidence, but only to people who actually know how to use them:

I never said statistics in general were bad. Just that they're sometimes not as useful as one might think, especially in regards to stuff like this. They can also be easily misinterpreted or minipulated. This does't apply to every situation, of course.


Of course, you are completely right. But lets say this was true for 2 companies. Not really anything wrong right? How about 3? How about 5? How about 10? How about 100? In that many trials, these things do become relevant. Now, modern statistics can't go that far back because 2000 is a bit different than 1970. But how much? Only statistics will give you that. I have not done enough study to actually confirm it in either way. But it is quite possible to not have a lot of headway.

How about a hunderd gajillion billion? Doesn't matter. In this case, statistics are completely meaningless because no matter what they say it's not going to show racial inequality. Like I said, it's not how sucessful any particular race is that even matters. It's the opportunity for sucess that should count. If one should want to prove that any particular race is at a disadvantage then one should present accounts of universal mistreatment. Statistics, in this scenario, are definitely irrelevant.

Now, according to my friend (only a freshman in high school) who has done a bit more study in Affirmative Action than me, it has definitely helped the black middle class population tremendously. Now I am not saying that they couldn't have risen by themselves, but it is still difficult to do so. Could this have been answered by segregating based on economics? Maybe. But I am definitely tired of seeing such segregated schools. For example, my class has no black people as graduate. Our whole school probably has 20 people as black. Now what is that? 20/900? 2/90? Even if black people like to stick together, thats some crazy number. And its not just this suburbia either. It probably extends to 6 more high schools around this one. Additionally, this number wouldn't even be that high normally, these black people just recently came to our school.

No way, special treatment helps people that are recieving the special treatment?!? Well, no shit. Of course it does.

The point is that it doesn't help promote racial equality, in in actuality is probably does more harm than good in that department. Race should never be a factor in deciding anything. It's not even something that should be taken into consideration. It shouldn't matter what race someone is, ever. That's how we should promote racial equality: Show that what race a person is to be completely irrelevant. Because that's exactly how it should be; you don't get asked what color hair you have or if you're left or right handed when you apply for a scholarship. Race should be the exact same way. Show people this, and it'll eventually sink in. Keep playing the race card, and there will always be a divide.

Want to help people out economically? That's great, but don't do it based on race. It accomplishes the exact same thing, except everyone gets assistance regardless of skin color and doesn't place any emphesis what-so-ever on what race a person is.

I already do agree with you that affirmative action was stupid and that it should be based on economics, not race. This will help out most of the black people as it will be concentrated where it counts. But it does help out some extremely idiotic trends in the city. Do you ever wonder why inner city is completely filled with black people and suburbia is filled with white? Its not even racism, its the economic situation. Blacks just have a difficult time getting out of it. Which is why I denounced race, but agreed economics. Affirmative action does address some serious issues though. Again, I approve that economic help would definitely be better.

YES it does, especially in your theoretical situation. What are you saying? That if you had 100,000 people in a company where the population was 0.1 red and 0.9 blue, and it was based on complete equality, you wouldn't expect the red to be somewhere around 10000? If it was a 100% blue, then you know there are a few problems. Its just unrealistic to have that many trials that should be completely fair. In other words, take a dice. Lets say getting a one is red and getting anything else is blue. So obviously, getting like lets say 10 blue in a row is not that unrealistic. But what is unrealistic is rolling the dice 100000 times and still getting 10 ones.

This is simple probability, you realize that there is more than just the opportunity thats the problem. Yes, I know what you are saying, but I do think its false, or at least more complicated than you are making it. Sure, people depending on paycheck to paycheck might have no restriction on moving higher into the middle class, but realistically, how the hell can they manage that? Its tough.

Again, I agree with you. I am saying, though, that race is still a big issue in America. Affirmative action does not make the race issue bigger, it just acknowledges a difference that is already there. I disagree with Affirmative Action, but I do believe something should be done to help the economic hell hole. I agree with you on your way to help out this deal. I don't agree with your denial of racism.

YES it does, especially in your theoretical situation. What are you saying? That if you had 100,000 people in a company where the population was 0.1 red and 0.9 blue, and it was based on complete equality, you wouldn't expect the red to be somewhere around 10000? If it was a 100% blue, then you know there are a few problems. Its just unrealistic to have that many trials that should be completely fair. In other words, take a dice. Lets say getting a one is red and getting anything else is blue. So obviously, getting like lets say 10 blue in a row is not that unrealistic. But what is unrealistic is rolling the dice 100000 times and still getting 10 ones.

This is simple probability, you realize that there is more than just the opportunity thats the problem. Yes, I know what you are saying, but I do think its false, or at least more complicated than you are making it. Sure, people depending on paycheck to paycheck might have no restriction on moving higher into the middle class, but realistically, how the hell can they manage that? Its tough.

Nah, dude. You misunderstood. What I'm saying with that is that no matter what the ratios are it won't prove racial inequality. If a major company like Walmart or something had absolutely zero black employees or something, then yeah, that's something to look into. And if they have some sort of racist practice going on, they're going to get caught. If you think that there's some sort of widespread account of racism going on across many different major companies, then that's pretty freaking stupid though. No company is going to purposely limit their employment options and risk ridiculously major lawsuits just to make sure a couple of black people don't do well for some stupid reason. To even suggest such an unrealistic hypothetical situation in an attempt to counter my 'the statistics provided in this particular discussion are worthless' argument is kinda silly.

And just to further clarify, I assumed you were referring to my first hypothetical situation with your previous post. The second was suppose to represent a single hypothetical company. Yeah, if no one hired black people, ever, then there's probably some discrimination going on. And I'm totally for punishment for when discrimination based on race (Or gender, or sexual orientation, etc.) can be proven. That's a whole different thing altogether.

Again, I agree with you. I am saying, though, that race is still a big issue in America. Affirmative action does not make the race issue bigger, it just acknowledges a difference that is already there. I disagree with Affirmative Action, but I do believe something should be done to help the economic hell hole. I agree with you on your way to help out this deal. I don't agree with your denial of racism.

Whoa, what? When did I ever deny that racism exists? Infact, a good portion of my argument against special treatment based on race is because of the existence of racism. That's why I believe it's in our best interest to strive to make race a non-issue, to lessen the importance of race within our society.

Don't misunderstand. Discrimination based on race is wrong. We should have laws against shit like that, and they should be strictly enforced. I'm arguing against special treatment for people of a particular race. That's entirely different.

Ok, as long as we are clear. What I am saying is that there is little difference between a big company like Walmart denying black employees and thousands of medium sized company denying black employees. Either way, stats, will prove something or another even if its not visible normally. I do agree that this will have to be a pretty large study using many variables.

No, I did not misunderstand your statement. What you said in that post is what I am agreeing to.

What I am NOT agreeing to is: You said that blacks have every opportunity and in fact are only in a better situation than whites.

Because I can only really think of things that are easier for some minorities to get in comparison to whites, to be honest. I'm guessing you'd say something like getting hired for a job because of the possibility of the employer being a racist, but the same thing could happen if a white person applies to a minority owner's business. Or the business owner might not like fat people, or people with tattoos, etc. There is laws against this type of discrimination too. It's just unavoidable sometimes, but it's certainly not something that happens exclusively to any one particular group of people.
Theoretically, its sound. Why not make racism have strict punishment? But the thing is, the population has to be willing. And I don't know if some special locations are at that stage yet. I mean we already allowed black to have voting privelage since after the civil war, but how many have been able to exercise those rights until the civil rights movement? How many black districts were gerrymandered? No, what I am saying is that racism against such minorities is still a big issue. I thought you said it wasn't.

However, I agree with you in this, I think Affirmative Action is not the way to solve this.

I'm positive that the majority would be in favor of strict enforcement of anti-discrimination laws. There being a few redneck retard backwood areas still around doesn't really mean much. Blacks aren't the only people who have to worry about racism, even in this regard. Before I moved to where I live now I lived in a primarily black community and went to a primarily black school. Being white in an atmosphere like that isn't all rainbows and sunshine either. And I'm sure my personal situation isn't something that's totally unheard of. Blacks definitely aren't the only people effected by racial discrimination, everyone can be. Again, they're really no worse off than anyone else.

And even if they were (which they're not), special treatment isn't the answer. We're both in agreement on that, and pretty much everything else. Like I said, racism definitely exists, I'm not trying to deny that. Just that it's something everyone is effected by, no one is exempt. No one has an advantage in that regard, not everyone recieves the benifits of special treatment though.

So no, I don't think blacks have it worse than anyone else in this day and age. And I still support my belief that they're at no disadvantage in comparision to anyone else, and because of the special treatment they recieve (And not just in comparison to whites either) that they may even have a slight advantage as far as opportunites go(Example: A black guy can apply for all the same scholarships I can. I can't apply to all the one's he can though...What opportunites do I have that he doesn't? How is having extra opportunities to succeed not an advantage?).

Hmm, your situation is the reason I don't support Affirmative Action. But in a more holistic viewpoint, I still view Blacks as being more racially challenged than whites. It can happen to everyone, yeah, but it happens more often.

But hey, it doesn't matter now, we both agree on the important things. The things we disagree on aren't important as they will be mostly solved if we got our way.