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View Full Version : Obama urges longer school hours


Narutodemon
03-16-2009, 10:12 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/444/story/1078454.html

LonelyNinja
03-16-2009, 11:03 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me. Same goes for merit pay for teachers.

Freshgrease
03-16-2009, 11:16 PM
Indeed. Teachers need more money, otherwise there is no incentive for smart people to join up. The max around these parts is $45K and that's a glass ceiling for a 20+year teacher.

Vanity
03-17-2009, 12:31 AM
School if for squares.

Gamr1469
03-17-2009, 12:53 AM
honestly i never thought i would want longer school hours...but after listening and thinking about it, its not that bad of an idea

Hurricane Chronicles
03-17-2009, 02:34 AM
Longer School hours i do not agree but i voted for Obama so I support it. Its just not every kid needs longer school hours, but for a good amount of kids this would be helpful.

ShinobiKnight
03-18-2009, 07:41 PM
Merit pay is a brilliant idea. What's wrong with being rewarded for excelling at your job, especially if it's something as important as education?

I oppose longer school hours though. I don't believe less time in school is the reason American students have worse grades than foreign ones. It's because our education system is so good, Americans take it for granted. In Japan, for example, about 1/4 of students make it into college; that's why they study so diligently, and even go to cram school in their free time. In America, as long as you actually take school seriously, you'll most likely get passing grades and get into college. Some kids see that and figure you can get by putting in minimal effort, which is untrue. What we need is a change in the way the bad students think about school, something I don't see happening.

aeondrift
03-19-2009, 12:32 AM
Here in Asia, things are highly competitive leading to a mentality of "survivor of the fittest", and lots of stressed out, unhappy and suicidal people -- ok that's an exaggeration. :P

Here, unskilled worker are paid peanuts due to a much lower minimum wage. Thus w/o education, you'll have a higher chance of being doomed to poverty; that is unless you're resourceful, smart and driven enough to succeed.

Shinobi, yes I do see your arguments but what do you reckon? That America create less college so that student have to fight for places? And then lower minimum wage so that people would work harder to ensure a stable and more secure future?

DaPhenom89
03-19-2009, 10:44 AM
I'm gonna have to disagree with Shinobi High school was a joke for me I had each and every credit I needed for my high school diploma by the end of my junior year. In my senior year i cut classes a lot and I sill graduated with an 80 average. You don't have to work hard at all to pass a class the bare minimum will get you good grades.

I think they need to hire better teachers and make the classes more difficult. It is way to easy to get through High school in some places and it leaves you somewhat unprepared for college. I also like the idea of paying good teachers more money because many teachers are unprepared or they don't do anything that is helpful to the students.

ShinobiKnight
03-19-2009, 11:29 AM
Shinobi, yes I do see your arguments but what do you reckon? That America create less college so that student have to fight for places? And then lower minimum wage so that people would work harder to ensure a stable and more secure future?

I can't make any suggestions. Like I said, I don't see the situation changing any time soon. Also, I never mentioned minimum wage.

@DaPhenom: Don't be stupid. One exception doesn't obviate my argument. I myself am an exception to that I said, but it doesn't matter, because I meant in general. And in general, if you blow off assignments and skip school, you fail. Prove me wrong.

Spiegel
03-19-2009, 01:19 PM
Merit pay is a brilliant idea. What's wrong with being rewarded for excelling at your job, especially if it's something as important as education?

I oppose longer school hours though. I don't believe less time in school is the reason American students have worse grades than foreign ones. It's because our education system is so good, Americans take it for granted. In Japan, for example, about 1/4 of students make it into college; that's why they study so diligently, and even go to cram school in their free time. In America, as long as you actually take school seriously, you'll most likely get passing grades and get into college. Some kids see that and figure you can get by putting in minimal effort, which is untrue. What we need is a change in the way the bad students think about school, something I don't see happening.

Having parents cooperating with the school's and working with their kids would also help increase the number of students passing with good grades. People just like to blame their kids failures on the public school system because they are too ashamed to blame themselves. I'm also for the Merit pay. God knows how many awesome teachers I've come along by and they get crappy pay. Not only that but they have to deal with a lot of the bull shit rules the school puts and the nonsense from kids. They more than deserve.

RNB
03-19-2009, 04:04 PM
More government control in education = bad.

Narutodemon
03-19-2009, 08:24 PM
This is why we take classes when we are junior senior year so we can be prepared for college, but i do not believe in the longer school hours. But i like the idea of teachers getting their merit pay and stuff like that.

EDIT: Our classes at my school are only like 48 mins. long.

Kina
03-19-2009, 08:43 PM
I'm all up for teachers getting a pay raise, they need it.

But longer school hours? Oh fuck no. Lol, an hour and a half for one class is too long now. I'm in school for too long as it is.

shippuuden101
03-19-2009, 09:49 PM
and i told everyone not to vote/support him. They did and now look what happend\

I am getting all A's and B's and I am an advanced student. Why should I have to go to school longer cuz everyone else fails at life

ShinobiKnight
03-19-2009, 10:03 PM
^ LOL. Obama does one thing some people disagree with, so it was a bad idea to vote for him? And now you're telling us "I told you so"? Grow up, kid.

shippuuden101
03-19-2009, 10:08 PM
^ the worst has still yet to come

Kina
03-19-2009, 10:21 PM
I hate people like you. All gloom and doom. Why can't you just be hopeful that President Obama will be the best president ever? Believe it or not, he's doing his damnedest and I respect that, even if I didn't really like the guy. However, I wasn't crazy about McCain, either.

Miburo
03-19-2009, 11:47 PM
Gotta disagree with you, SK. And not just because you're a noob either.

Our school systems are mostly a joke. I work with school teachers who tell me the shit they have to put up with in regards to policies and curriculum they have to enforce. That no child left behind bullshit fucks shit up, hard. A school receives money based on how well they do on those standardized tests you guys take. For you, I'm assuming it's the PSSA's, yeah? The curriculum chosen by the schools is prepared specifically to prepare for that test. The idea is that the school receives more money. Curriculum shouldn't be decided based on what will make the school the most dough. It should be made based on what kids need to fucking know.

Not only that, but classes are designed so that it's nearly impossible to fail. Because tons of kids failing means "kids r getting left behind lolololol." Two of the coaches I work with are teachers from two separate middle schools, and both of them have told me that they've been told by the higher ups that they cannot fail a certain amount of kids. They have to pass a certain percentage no matter what. They've complained about how the kids they teach don't know what they should because the teachers before were forced to pass kids, and that they can't teach the curriculum within the deadline because they have to backtrack and reteach shit everyone in that class should already be able to do. This shit is common. Teachers from tons of different schools (most wrestling coaches are teachers) have said the same exact thing. The polices teachers have to deal with are ridiculous, and kids are dumber for that shit.

Also, come on. School is a joke. Any retard can pass so long as they do the work and put in some effort, even if they don't understand shit. I've been in tons of classes where you could fail every test and still pass with a C because of homework and class participation. Even college classes I'm taking work that way. In my abnormal psychology class the average test scores for the last two tests were a fucking 36% and a 48% (Midterm). And that's with my fucking 98/100 and 100/100 test scores thrown into that average, with 18 student class size. Those fuckers must have failed, hard. Yet the average total grade in the class is a 86% due to weighted class participation grades. That means those dumbshits in my class don't understand anything, but they show up and talk about stupid shit alot so they pass. That's retarded.

School as it is now doesn't mean shit except that you're willing to put in the minimum effort it takes to go and try, sorta. I'm all for that shit changing.

Edit: Actually, I personally don't give a shit because I'm not retarded. So it doesn't really effect me. I can compete with foreigners, no problem, because I'm a manly mother fucking American.

ShinobiKnight
03-21-2009, 04:04 PM
lawl, he red-repped me for telling him to grow up. Seriously, grow a pair, kid.

@Mibs: By "taking school seriously", I meant "showing up, doing the homework, etc." In my school, a lot of people don't even do that. I agree that you can take bad notes, do bad on tests, and still pass. Your bit about teachers having to pass a certain number of students supports my argument, since it would contribute to kids thinking they can pass without doing anything. As far as I know, teachers can't just throw in extra credit to pass you; if you do next to nothing, they must fail you.

However, I must admit you know more about the education system than me. I've noticed much of our work being devoted to PSSA preparation, but I didn't know the entire curriculum is based around it. I agree with you there: it should be based on what kids need to know. But I don't see that changing unless they stop basing funding on test scores, which is unlikely.

Also, competing with foreigners is no problem for me personally either.

Miburo
03-21-2009, 04:48 PM
@Mibs: By "taking school seriously", I meant "showing up, doing the homework, etc." In my school, a lot of people don't even do that. I agree that you can take bad notes, do bad on tests, and still pass. Your bit about teachers having to pass a certain number of students supports my argument, since it would contribute to kids thinking they can pass without doing anything. As far as I know, teachers can't just throw in extra credit to pass you; if you do next to nothing, they must fail you.

Yeah. The point is that our education system obviously is less then adequate in educating people if you can pass without having a firm grasp of the curriculum. I don't even give a shit about the people who fail. There are people who pass that don't know what they're suppose to know. That's not good.

Compare it to a karate dojo or some shit. Let's say you get a ranking belt every 4 months so long as you show up and put in the effort, even if you're not that great at fighting. So you get your blackbelt after 3 years. Does that blackbelt mean anything at all? Of course not, because you still suck at fighting. Same thing here.

If you don't grasp the shit you're being taught, then your grades and level of education mean jack shit. Making our educational system a joke. It doesn't adequately show one's actual amount of education. It just shows how many years you spent going to school, and that you were willing to put the rather small amount of effort in that is necessary for you to not fail. That's pretty much it.

That's why I always lol at the retards who try using their grades to counter-argue against your claim that they're fucking stupid. Because any retard who thinks what grades they get in highschool is a good judge of intelligence is fucking stupid.

However, I must admit you know more about the education system than me. I've noticed much of our work being devoted to PSSA preparation, but I didn't know the entire curriculum is based around it. I agree with you there: it should be based on what kids need to know. But I don't see that changing unless they stop basing funding on test scores, which is unlikely.

And highly unfortunate. We have the resources to be a much more intelligent country as a whole. They're just grossly mismanaged.

narutojm
03-21-2009, 07:38 PM
obama is just helping us americans to compete against foreign kids because of our laziness

ShinobiKnight
03-21-2009, 07:47 PM
I agree 100% with everything you said, Miburo. But to keep on topic, do you think longer school hours like Obama's proposing will actually do anything to make the necessary changes?

Miburo
03-22-2009, 03:23 AM
Nope, not that alone anyway. But it'll rage kids, which makes me smile. So I'm all for it.

Edit: Well, actually, depending on what they do with that extra time, it could be pretty damn helpful.

zer0systm
03-22-2009, 06:10 AM
This is why we take classes when we are junior senior year so we can be prepared for college, but i do not believe in the longer school hours. But i like the idea of teachers getting their merit pay and stuff like that.

EDIT: Our classes at my school are only like 48 mins. long.

The general attention span for someone learning something is 45 minutes before they start to lose interest, that is why your classes run for that time, Increasing the time at school probably isn't the smartest idea, they just have to reshape the way they go about education the kids, longer hours at school will just result in longer classes which will more than likely result in kids learning the same as they are now or less even.
Funding should be dumped evenly among schools, why boost the resources of a school with the most smart kids (I'm not sure if I'm remembering Mibz post bout the way funding is handed out correctly, if not just disregard.) instead of giving it to the school that has to bring their kids level of education up to scratch.

tl;dr: extending school hours will have next to no effect, fix the education system.

Babyface BK
03-22-2009, 06:28 AM
American schooling and testing system is retarded, some parts anyway.

Miburo
03-22-2009, 09:20 AM
@Zero-It depends on how they handle it. Block scheduling and longer classes are relatively useless, I agree. Using that time for new mandatory classes wouldn't be that bad though. Imagine if something like a debating class was mandatory in schools starting at a relatively young age (assuming logic over pure persuasiveness was emphasized)? That would have the potential of greatly increasing the non-dumbassery level of society as a whole, if coupled with a higher standard necessary to pass classes. Among other things, of course.

If most of society grasped the concepts of logical and rational thought to a decently high degree, then there would potentially be a fuckload less stupid ass shit going on. And that's just one extra class added to the overall curriculum. That would be totally worth adding an extra 40 minutes to a pretty damn short workday as far as I'm concerned, yo.

RNB
03-22-2009, 11:36 AM
I would like to point out another thing, which might have already been pointed out. School is tyranny on the true education, life's education. I learn things that are more valuable from my own education from books and such. Having a teacher assign work and then point things out to you is not helping. Really, the main point I think schools should work on is life-long learning, or a commitment to learning anything you feel like for the rest of your life. Too many people get out of college, go to school to be a lawyer, and then end up serving in stupid court cases the rest of their lives. That is because our society downgrades the individual and tells him that he can't do anything without everyone else. However, many men have succeeded with their own mind. Polymaths aren't polymaths from birth. You work for it. That is your own personal achievement. Our society tells us that you "are so lucky" for being that smart. That is what the school system teaches when they like to screw the smart kid by forcing him to work in a group of people who sit around and do nothing because "everyone should be equal."

Miburo
03-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Could you elaborate on this, RNB? Such as what exactly you propose schools should teach. I'm not saying you're wrong or disagreeing with you or trying to be a dick (Yet. XD). I'm actually interested in what you're saying. I also disagree with some things society sometimes suggests, such as wealth = success and whatnot. So I might actually agree with you on this shit. Maybe.

RNB
03-22-2009, 12:47 PM
Could you elaborate on this, RNB? Such as what exactly you propose schools should teach. I'm not saying you're wrong or disagreeing with you or trying to be a dick (Yet. XD). I'm actually interested in what you're saying. I also disagree with some things society sometimes suggests, such as wealth = success and whatnot. So I might actually agree with you on this shit. Maybe.
Classical education is valuable in some areas such as up to middle school. I think that around 6th or 7th grade the education style should change though. It should become much more independent because you live life, by yourself. You don't always have a teacher there watching over your shoulder evaluating your decisions and correcting your mistakes. So when many people get out of this system they are not taught for the real world. Only some people learn early on that this life is lived independently. School does not teach the idea that one should think for himself.

So around 6th or 7th grade the education should change and become radically more independent. Some kids may not survive in the independent environment and may latch on to the classical style, which could be a problem. So whether this system should be for public education or not is a decision for another time.

There is a college called St. John's college. That type of education is how I think education should be. The kids learn in a very democratic and independent environment, in which the teacher only guides the class and doesn't actually teach. The kids learn from the books that actually produced the theories. So instead of opening up some textbook to page 300 to learn about some physics theory, they read Einstein's actual books.

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_books

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_College,_U.S.

http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/


Again, I stress that I don't know if this is a good idea for public education. I think it is a great idea for private education though.

Miburo
03-22-2009, 01:40 PM
Hmm.

Well, I don't disagree that the pursuit of knowledge should be encouraged and is admirably. And I would agree with the notion that critical thinking, practical problem solving, and logical thought should be emphasized over standard "do as you're told" line of thinking. Most of the time, anyway.

But from what I gathered from the links you provided, what you're promoting is basically just more open-ended classroom environments. I had a college philosophy class that operated in a similar fashion to what was being described. We had set reading material (Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, some Buddha shit some dude wrote, etc.), but the class was structured in a way where we basically discussed the reading amongst ourselves with the teacher just adding to the discussion, or sometimes proving counter-arguments and ideas to keep things going. No lectures and shit like that, really. And tests were basically just papers we wrote discussing our thoughts and opinions on the readings.

It was a pretty fun class, and the teacher was a decently smart dude which made it somewhat enjoyable. The discussions were basically useless and a waste of time since everyone there was pretty much a stupid fucking idiot though. So the only time I learned anything is when the teacher himself was talking, and from the readings themselves.

But I honestly can't see how that kind of class structure would work for shit like math and science. At least not in a way that would be better then classical education styles. In math, for example, there isn't much to discuss. You either are doing it right or you're fucking it up.

I'm also against class participation grades and shit like that. If you're going to have grades then those grades should reflect how well you know the curriculum. Not how much homework you do. Not how much you talk in class. Etc. With the links you provided it seems like there is still set material that is covered. I think grades should reflect how well you know that material. Or, at the very least, your ability to draw information from the material and apply it in a relatively intelligent manner during the classroom discussions. So my opposition in this regard depends on how classroom participation grades are judged, I suppose.

RNB
03-22-2009, 01:47 PM
Hmm.

Well, I don't disagree that the pursuit of knowledge should be encouraged and is admirably. And I would agree with the notion that critical thinking, practical problem solving, and logical thought should be emphasized over standard "do as you're told" line of thinking. Most of the time, anyway.

But from what I gathered from the links you provided, what you're promoting is basically just more open-ended classroom environments. I had a college philosophy class that operated in a similar fashion to what was being described. We had set reading material (Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, some Buddha shit some dude wrote, etc.), but the class was structured in a way where we basically discussed the reading amongst ourselves with the teacher just adding to the discussion, or sometimes proving counter-arguments and ideas to keep things going. No lectures and shit like that, really. And tests were basically just papers we wrote discussing our thoughts and opinions on the readings.

It was a pretty fun class, and the teacher was a decently smart dude which made it somewhat enjoyable. The discussions were basically useless and a waste of time since everyone there was pretty much a stupid fucking idiot though. So the only time I learned anything is when the teacher himself was talking, and from the readings themselves.

But I honestly can't see how that kind of class structure would work for shit like math and science. At least not in a way that would be better then classical education styles. In math, for example, there isn't much to discuss. You either are doing it right or you're fucking it up.

I'm also against class participation grades and shit like that. If you're going to have grades then those grades should reflect how well you know the curriculum. Not how much homework you do. Not how much you talk in class. Etc. With the links you provided it seems like there is still set material that is covered. I think grades should reflect how well you know that material. Or, at the very least, your ability to draw information from the material and apply it in a relatively intelligent manner during the classroom discussions. So my opposition in this regard depends on how classroom participation grades are judged, I suppose.
I would definitely agree on the participation grades. I think that the only reason they have them are to keep parents from saying to their college bound sons/daughters "Are you sure you are going to be disciplined enough?"

In all honesty grades on matter up to high school because once you get to college all you have to do is graduate and know the material. So if you know the material and get a B, you are still considered equal to the kid who knew the material and got an A. The real world is what comes after that.

Also algebra and stuff could be taught with the original stuff. Like I said, there would be enough classical education so that you already know how to add, divide, subtract, etc.