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-   -   Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength... (http://www.fandom.com/forums//showthread.php?t=205453)

Konnaha_yellow_flash 09-09-2013 02:21 PM

Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Since this has become such a debated topic, I felt the need to create this thread instead of spamming others...

Speed/Hiraishin jutsu Vs Power/Strength. in reference to Minato Vs Hashirama and EMS Madara

Power/strength are physical skills that increase the force of a technique.
The more power one has, the more destructive force one can produce for their technique. ANd the stronger one is, the harder they can hit, more they can lift, ect.
The Obvious COUNTER to power/strength is Speed... Because what good is the most powerful/strongest technique in the universe if it cannot even hit the enemy beucase they have the SPEED to easily avoid it.

But, Speed. Speed is the Physical skill that allows one to effectively apply ones techniques as well as avoid the enemies which is what its about.
The more speed you have, the more effectively you can apply your techniques and avoid the enemies.
ANd when you have such a level of speed that the enemy cannot even Begin REACT to your attacks, much less track them. You are able to apply your technique at will pretty much...

The normal counter for speed is...
: Timing (timing their attacks)
: Immobilization (immobilize the enemy so they cannot use their speed.

However, this is not Normal high speed.
: You cannot time something you cannot even track, much less react to.
: And you cannot immobilize something that can use time and space to move between many counties in an instant.

Therefore, the Only TRUE counter for minato's Speed is....
: Future reading to know what is going to happen before it does in order to anticipate the attacks of the speed user...


Power/strength is a great physical skill to have, but is you do not have the speed to even apply those powerful/strong techniques. All that power/strength is useless...

EXAMPLE 1:
: Hashirama with all his power creates a forrest to attack Minato, but it lacks in speed compared to Minato. And MInato, with his crazy time space speed coupled with his physical speed/reflexes can use hiraishin level 2 to blitz throw a Kunai over the Forrest, teleport to the Kunai, then throw one directly to hashirama below him to land a blitzing Kunai attack all within a small instant...

NOTE: MInato at base threw a Kunai from the current battle field to the sea in a matter of seconds in order to place a seal to teleport away the Jubidama so his Kunai throwing speed is crazy fast.

ANd the time it takes Minato to throw two kunai and teleport twice is about the same time it took Minato to counter V2 raikage which was so fats not even V2 raikage with his level of reflexes could even react at all, thus there is no way that hashirama can react in time making his huge forrest creation attack useless...
: FLower world KO pollen could not even hurt the gokage while Minato can use his t/s barrier to draw it in and release it back onto hashirama or his clones.
: Minato's shushin is so fast compared to hashirama's that is the fight statrts at 10-15 Meters. Minato will just use his shushin to tag hashirama before he can react and the fight is over...
: Plus the FACT that Minato has a defensive range of many countries because he has tags all over them to use if he is in trouble against a large scale attacks. Meaning he can easily avoid ANY Buddha summon attacks while leaving kage bushins to tag the Buddha summon, move around using hiraishin level 2 to got above the Buddha summon all so hashirama can be Touched/taged which is all it takes to beat even hashirama in SM...

CONCLUSION:
Because speed is the physical skill that increases the ability to apply jutsu and power/strength just increase the force of the jutsu, not application coupled with the fact a Kunai is enough to Kill pretty much anyone (even tsunade cutting he head off or dismembering her as proven by edo madara).

Minato has the advantage over everyone... Including even hashirama... because even with the power of 1000 Juubi JINKS. If you are too slow to apply that power/strength while too slow to defend against the attacks of the energy then how are you supposed to win?

EXAMPLE 2:
EMS madara with all his power with perfect susanoo and the Kyuubi is a force to be retcon with, but his speed/reflexes are not even enough to possibly compete against V1 raikage. Madara did no better then C2 Juugo.

Madara can use perfect susanoo to super slash attack Minato with mountain killing slashes yet due to his speed using hirahsin and reflexes coupled with tags/seals all over many countrues to use for defense against large scale attacks. Minato can dodge them all day every day....

And due to Minato's Hirahsin ability to teleport away his target without even touching them, thus can teleport either perfect susanoo or madara himself to another location leaving madara completely vulnerable to a blitz attack or at the lest, get TOUCHED and that is all it takes...

Coupled with Minato Only having to touch Madara to break the control seal he has on the Kyuubi means Minato will gain an ally for the fight.
And MInato + full power Kyuubi Vs EMS madara that cannot effectively use perfect susanoo is boned...

CONCLUSION:
Due to MInato able to teleport between countries to avoid large scale attacks, easily dodge amaterasu, break any genjutsu by teleporting away from the genjutsu user , thus regaining his nervous system and chakra control coupled with minato's ability to teleport away the target through indirect contact, therefore, teleport either perfect susanoo or madara to another location then attack madara directly, tag him and break the contract with the Kyuubi so madara loses control over him.

minato's speed because of his reflexes and hirashin makes him even able to beat the likes of EMS madara+Kyuubi and even SM hashirama...

stubborn_d0nkey 09-09-2013 03:55 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Any interesting new TV series this fall?

AOTKorby 09-09-2013 03:57 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
And here I thought you might be attempting to answer this question outside the context of your hairbrained Minato fanning.

Let me put this shit simply: The matter of why Hashirama wins is not that he has offensive power. It's that he has defensive power. Between his medical techniques that function roughly the same as Tsunade's and Sage Mode's defenses (remember those? Remember how it made Naruto capable of tanking lethal force without injury? yeaaaaaaaah), Hashirama is too well fortified for Minato to actually hurt him. Believe me, I was convinced Minato would have beaten him until the medical technique shit was brought to light. Speed, agility, evasiveness, what have you normally does defeat raw power. However, it must be capable of damaging its opponent. If it can't actually damage its target, its speed does not matter. Minato is not capable of actually hurting Hashirama without the Kurama cloak. Because of this, he cannot reasonably defeat him.

Numinous 09-09-2013 07:31 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
It's clear that KYF never played any games that involved PvP, or else he'd know that the first rule of PvP is to outlast the opponent and, to do that, Defense>Offense and the contrary can only be applied when a character has no proper defense mechanisms (the Glass Cannon paradigm).

Considering KYF's abandonment of neutrality just for more Minato wanking, I have to mention Minato: his speed acts as both offense and defense BUT speed does not outmatch raw defense and offense, which other characters (Hashirama, Madara, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, etc.) do have. That's because speed by itself solves nothing, only enhances already existing offense and defense and, let's be realistic, Minato has little to no defense and his offense is basic (not even average, considering most characters manage to have better offense).

So Minato's problem is that he really lacks the punch to compensate for his lack of damage mitigation.

jekyl_hyde 09-09-2013 07:45 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stubborn_d0nkey (Post 2138035)
Any interesting new TV series this fall?

The new season of The Big Bang Theory starts in a couple of weeks.

And for all the Young Justice fans out there, I read that the Hub is looking to pick up the series for syndication, and if they do, a studio (un-named) may buy the rights and produce new episodes.

MrBIG 09-09-2013 09:12 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Harashima has the largest charka level of any living ninja right now (excluding ten tails).

The idea he could increase his speed with that seemingly endless supply of chakra isn't a stretch but can actually be EXPECTED.

Look at Gai or Lee when they open the first few gates and get access to more chakra, or Naruto when he unlocks the Kyuubi's chakra for use. They all get a tremendous boost in Speed and Strength.

The First Hokage surpasses all of them in that regard. No one in their right mind can possibly think Minato could beat the first with a couple of kunais.


Not to mention Hashirama is a god damn tank on both the offensive end and defensive end. Minato wouldn't stand a chance.

Spiegel 09-09-2013 09:35 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
KYF. You should read the latest chapters of Hajime no Ippo. It's a speed versus strength arc where speed means shit if you don't have the proper defense and/or offense to overcome pure strength.

You honestly think that Minato has what it takes to take on Hashirama, one of the Gods of Shinobi? I'm sure that considering his experience fighting the Uchihas that he would have experience with ninjas in the high speed and timing categories. The same guy that went bijuu hunting and solo'd them, whereas Minato had a hard time with Kurama and the only thing he could do was seal him and couldn't even defeat or subdue his own student during that same time period.

lol, yeah ok. :rolleyes:

ask me anything 09-09-2013 09:44 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
It seems to me like KYF's only argument against Hashirama is that he's not fast enough to physically keep up with Minato, which I find to be a bit hilarious. Given that Madara himself stated any serious battle between him and Hashirama has the destructive capability of changing the fucking maps, is it really that far fetched to think Hashirama has large scale attacks of his own. So why is "grabbing" Minato really relevant if you have crater making jutsu at your disposal.

Also despite KYF wanking Minato's speed, he ignores the fact that he lacks the proper reflexes to use it's full potential. This is the same exact Minato that warned Kakashi to not use his chidori move ever again, because the extreme speed caused him to have tunnel vision, and led to the possibility of the enemy countering his move. The same advice applies to anybody with "normal" reflexes. Last time I checked Minato didn't have sharingan eyes or Lightning enhance reflexes like Raikage, so let stop pretending his speed some nigh unstoppable force. Given that he currently only has one arm, it certainly wasn't that fast. I mean, come on. Minato had enough time to think "oh shit" to himself, but that wasn't enough time to use shirashin or substitution jutsu and get the fuck out of the way. LOL


Edit: BTW, Minato had his hands full just fighting Raikage and Killer Bee in the past. Madara just showed and and shitted on 5 KAGES like he was wiping his ass and they were the toilet paper. Then he told them to their face that Hashirama was better then all them suckers combined. Now the new and senju enhanced madara is fighting Hashirama again and still is only fighting on an even level. You know, for someone who is always preaching about how others misinterpret the manga, you sure are trying hard to ignore it yourself.

liondemon 09-09-2013 09:44 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash (Post 2138031)
Since this has become such a debated topic, I felt the need to create this thread instead of spamming others...

Speed/Hiraishin jutsu Vs Power/Strength. in reference to Minato Vs Hashirama and EMS Madara

Power/strength are physical skills that increase the force of a technique.
The more power one has, the more destructive force one can produce for their technique. ANd the stronger one is, the harder they can hit, more they can lift, ect.
The Obvious COUNTER to power/strength is Speed... Because what good is the most powerful/strongest technique in the universe if it cannot even hit the enemy beucase they have the SPEED to easily avoid it.

But, Speed. Speed is the Physical skill that allows one to effectively apply ones techniques as well as avoid the enemies which is what its about.
The more speed you have, the more effectively you can apply your techniques and avoid the enemies.
ANd when you have such a level of speed that the enemy cannot even Begin REACT to your attacks, much less track them. You are able to apply your technique at will pretty much...

Raikage said Minato is the only ninja faster than him. Someone at the summit mentioned that Raikage's chakra was at buuji levels during the summit. Killer B has buuji level chakra, 8 tail buuji, and his tentacle moved fast enough to knock his brother out of the way of Minato's kunai while Minato was already in the process of striking down at Rai's back. I'm referring to the manga panel you posted in the other thread. And I would assume that if you're trying to stab someone as fast as the Raikage in the back, you would do so as fast as you possibly can.

edit- Actually, I believe that Rai said that Minato was the only with comparable speed to him, but the point still stands. Buuji levels of chakra appears to be able to make for super fast ninja. As EOJ is quoted as stating in my sig, Minato was not short on chakra himself.

Power/strength and speed have been increased with chakra in this manga. The first Hokage has more chakra than Rai, Killa B, Minato, and everyone else except for Obito at the moment. The first Hokage thus has the potential to be more powerful/stronger and faster than Minato.

Konnaha_yellow_flash 09-10-2013 12:55 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AOTKorby (Post 2138036)
And here I thought you might be attempting to answer this question outside the context of your hairbrained Minato fanning.

Let me put this shit simply: The matter of why Hashirama wins is not that he has offensive power. It's that he has defensive power. Between his medical techniques that function roughly the same as Tsunade's and Sage Mode's defenses (remember those? Remember how it made Naruto capable of tanking lethal force without injury? yeaaaaaaaah), Hashirama is too well fortified for Minato to actually hurt him. Believe me, I was convinced Minato would have beaten him until the medical technique shit was brought to light. Speed, agility, evasiveness, what have you normally does defeat raw power. However, it must be capable of damaging its opponent. If it can't actually damage its target, its speed does not matter. Minato is not capable of actually hurting Hashirama without the Kurama cloak. Because of this, he cannot reasonably defeat him.

WHAT Defense, you are making shit up!!!

Manga Proved hashirama can be killed by a Kunai and has medical ninjutsu that are still not enough to survive a Kunai stab LMAO...

And what Sage mode defense? All hashirama's SM does is allow him to create more wood "gigity"... Show me his defense increase from SM because it is not there. You are just arguing with conjecture and nothing more.

ONLY frog sage mode increases durability. Snake/dragon SM did not... Only allowed for greater hendging...

So all you have is conjecture Vs CANON that a KUNAI can kill hashirama and thus Minato can win, but you cannot accept this. ANd you call me Bias... WTF, the manga PROVES hashirama can be killed by a KUNAI even though he has AUTOMATIC regeneration...

Look at his regeneration, it worked so well...
http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/...pse432f2ef.jpg

ANd this is the ONLY example of hashirama's automatic regeneration. On Obito who has a hashirama clone body. A Scuff was able to regenerate LMAO...
http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/...h/78896927.jpg

And Plus the evidence of hashirama able to be Killed by a simple Kunai as seen here:http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/...ps32d7e350.jpg

CONCLUSION:
Overwhelming evidence that hashriama does not have automatic regeneration anywhere near the level of tsunade, which comes form a jutsu too, not natural.
Only shown to automatically heal a scuff, cannot heal bloody mouth, lip, head and gash while able to die by a Kunai ONLY....

Accept it.. You made up your mind that hashirama's regeneration>tsunade's off of a dialogue that merely said "Hashirama could heal without using hand signs too (automatic), and his jutsu were way better then yours" not referring to the level fo regeneration which is then PROVEN by the FEATS of hashirama's automatic regeneration that can heal a scuff, but not a bloody lip, head, gash or Kunai stab...

Accept it...

kael03 09-10-2013 12:59 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Rasengan is a jutsu designed to not use hand seals, does that mean Minato/Naruto/Jiraiya/Kakashi automatically use it when they hold up their hands? No, it requires mental activation. Same concept applies to Hashirama's medical jutsu that he designed to use without hand seals. That's why he was capable of offing himself with a kunai, he wasn't going to activate his healing techs. Why is this so hard of a concept?

Konnaha_yellow_flash 09-10-2013 01:04 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBIG (Post 2138044)
Harashima has the largest charka level of any living ninja right now (excluding ten tails).

The idea he could increase his speed with that seemingly endless supply of chakra isn't a stretch but can actually be EXPECTED.

Look at Gai or Lee when they open the first few gates and get access to more chakra, or Naruto when he unlocks the Kyuubi's chakra for use. They all get a tremendous boost in Speed and Strength.

The First Hokage surpasses all of them in that regard. No one in their right mind can possibly think Minato could beat the first with a couple of kunais.


Not to mention Hashirama is a god damn tank on both the offensive end and defensive end. Minato wouldn't stand a chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liondemon (Post 2138048)
Raikage said Minato is the only ninja faster than him. Someone at the summit mentioned that Raikage's chakra was at buuji levels during the summit. Killer B has buuji level chakra, 8 tail buuji, and his tentacle moved fast enough to knock his brother out of the way of Minato's kunai while Minato was already in the process of striking down at Rai's back. I'm referring to the manga panel you posted in the other thread. And I would assume that if you're trying to stab someone as fast as the Raikage in the back, you would do so as fast as you possibly can.

edit- Actually, I believe that Rai said that Minato was the only with comparable speed to him, but the point still stands. Buuji levels of chakra appears to be able to make for super fast ninja. As EOJ is quoted as stating in my sig, Minato was not short on chakra himself.

Power/strength and speed have been increased with chakra in this manga. The first Hokage has more chakra than Rai, Killa B, Minato, and everyone else except for Obito at the moment. The first Hokage thus has the potential to be more powerful/stronger and faster than Minato.

Again with the stupid, hashirama has more chakra then anyone thus should be able to be faster... Despite the fact with all his power, he cnanot even move faster then madara, who could not even possibly compete with V1 raikage LMAO...

All that chakra hashirama has still did not allow him to out shushin Minato, who arrived like 30 seconds before him while hashi arrived at the same time the other 3 kage's did...

FACE it, you making an argument form nothing with no evidence to back it up because REFLEXES have correlated with physical speed, not POWER...

And Raikage is not the second fastest due to his POWER level, but his Lightning chakra that Increases his REFLEXES to Move faster LMAO... Proving my point even further...

If and's or But's Mean nothing... FEATS are what matters and hashirama's Physical Speed/reflexes feats are average kage level like hiruzen, tobirama and madara who he has proven he equals in speed...

By your own Logic, with the Kyuubi's power in BM. mInato should be able to move so physically fast that he makes Obito look like he is standing still, but that is not how it works. Reflexes increase spee dore then anything.

ANd the reason why naruto got so fast in KCM is because the Kyuubi power is full of life energy that activates the body, thus reflexes to increase speed.

So enough... Minato's physical speed/reflexes>>hashirama's. And when you add in hiraishin mInato's speed>>>>>>>hashirama's... Accept it..

Konnaha_yellow_flash 09-10-2013 01:09 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03 (Post 2138115)
Rasengan is a jutsu designed to not use hand seals, does that mean Minato/Naruto/Jiraiya/Kakashi automatically use it when they hold up their hands? No, it requires mental activation. Same concept applies to Hashirama's medical jutsu that he designed to use without hand seals. That's why he was capable of offing himself with a kunai, he wasn't going to activate his healing techs. Why is this so hard of a concept?

Your comparing the use of a jutsu that requires chakra, focus, rotation, ect that is not automatic... to the body reacting automatically to injuries and healing..

Just accept it. Hashirama can be killed by a Kunai despite having automatic regeneration and coupled with his feats of healing ONLY a scuff, but not internal injuries causing blood to come from the mouth as well as a gash on the head.

The Manga PROVES that I am right.... Just accept it... You based your idea of hashirama;s helaing on some statement that did not even menton the levle of healing in comparison to tsunad'es thus is your own fualt.

kael03 09-10-2013 01:21 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
You're confusing "designed to not use hand signs" as "automatically activated". No where has it been said that is the case. Madara specifically stated Hashirama's medical JUTSU didn't require hand signs.

ninjalostboy95 09-10-2013 01:25 PM

Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...
 
and I think that ends the convo, he just said he was right no matter what. It's not a debate if you're fanning over Minato. Hashirama got killed by a kunai? So what Minato can die from one too but you know what he can't do? He can't regenerate. So imagine if Hashirama punched him full force, yeah I thought so. Btw Madara's claim that Tsunade's healing is shit compared to her grandfather is valid because this guy fought him on multiple occasions. MULTIPLE. What is so hard to get here?


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