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-   -   Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago? (http://www.fandom.com/forums//showthread.php?t=53603)

Encon Uchiha 05-11-2010 11:25 PM

Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
This is a thread based on FACTS! from the manga.no fishy theories!bear with me,dont just look at it "too long" and exit!

Madara Uchiha felt abandoned by his village and he was shunned by his clan because they thought he was trying to "reignite the flames of war." but really he cared about his clan SOOO much.so then he left.

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...ruto&c=399&p=8

then he attacked the Leaf village himself with the power of the 9-tailed fox.he lost against Hashirama(1st Hokage) and died "or so they believed."

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...uto&c=399&p=10

There was then another attack by the 9-tailed fox 16 years ago.At that time,Minato Namikaze(Naruto's father) was the 4th Hokage.Minato tells Naruto that someone was controlling the fox when it attacked."a powerful person" who "without some sort of special power,there would be no way to fight him." He then says that it is the masked one in the akatsuki.Tobi.He says that "he saw through everything i did" and that "hes no ordinary ninja".

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...ruto&c=440&p=7
and http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...ruto&c=440&p=9

Many would think that its Madara Uchiha again. Tobi said he was Madara Uchiha.and he attacked Konoha years ago when Hashirama was around but failed.people say he came back to finish what he started.but he failed again.Minato also says "I believe he'll attack the village again"

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...ruto&c=440&p=8

It seems "Madara" will attack again because he failed twice,against the 1st and 4th hokage but now he has Akatsuki and he may be able to achieve this.

BUT!

TobiMadara himself says he wasent behind the attack on Konoha 16 years ago against the 4th hokage!
Madara - "In actuality ,it was a freak occurence.a natural disaster.The uchiha were completely blameless"
Minato - "He's a member of the Akatsuki,The man behind the mask"

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...uto&c=399&p=13

Who do you believe???Minato Namikaze or Madara UchihaTobi?take these factors into account...


1-Madara only had hate toward the Senju clan and then the Leaf Village,Tobi wants the whole world under his feet with the Moon Eye Plan.

2-Is Madara really Tobi or a whole different person?Minato says he's seen everything Naruto's seen while sealed in him.he says he knows Jiraiya's dead and what happened to Konoha.so why wouldent he tell Naruto that "the man behind the mask is Madara Uchiha?"or isent he?

3-Whos lying?Minato or Tobi?

liondemon 05-12-2010 12:10 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Dont know. I always secretly thought that maybe Madara lived and in his old age, his last effort to destroy Konoha was 16 years ago. He failed and later died, but either had an Uchiha child years before this, or found some Uchiha apprentice who maybe was thought by Konoha and Uchiha to be killed during one of their world wars. Once Madara died, his "son or apprentice" decided to use the knowledge and training that Madara had given him about the Uchiha Senju pastand the Sharingan to use for his own goals. It was said that the 4th Mizukage could control a Buuji and that he apparently was under a genjutsu that resembled Danzou's. Maybe that was the elderly Madara or his "son/apprentice" with the Buuji controlling power and just made it seem as if it was the 4th Mizukage to get their "puppet" into office as Mizukage

I think Madara is behind that mask and in that other eye is his MS. Maybe the mask blocks even Dojutsu from seeing his chakra behind it. Madara only seems to have his Sharingan on to open a dimension, but something like that, requiring no hand signs, I would expect to require at least an MS like Kakashi. I think Minato and Itachhi were right and it was Madara that used Kyuubi to attack the village. Maybe Madara doesnt have both of his original eyes, but he should at least still have 1 MS to have controlled Kyuubi like he did in the past.

ACt 05-12-2010 12:14 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Cue someone with an Obito joke.

Simple points:

Minato has no reason to know that it was Madara behind the mask or know him as Tobi. That's why he wasn't able to give Naruto more.

Minato has no reason to lie to Naruto about the attack; Madara had every reason to lie to Sasuke. One of the factors leading into the decision to massacre the Uchiha was the suspicion that an Uchiha was behind Kyuubi attack, taken with the evidence known by the elders that the Sharingan can control the Kyuubi. For Madara to reveal his involvement would turn Sasuke against him.

That's it. The rest is the old debate of "is Tobi really Madara" which has been discussed a lot. My nutshell - until anyone proves otherwise, I'm going with it. Simplest explanation rather than having to explain why he would pretend.

Encon Uchiha 05-12-2010 12:20 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
haha i was also thinking a similar story about an apprentice or son...He would know all of Madara's secrets and that would also explain why he said"you madman!"but somehow i cant the the idea out of my head that Obito or some part of him has something to do with this story.time/space jutsu...Kakashi...and Orochimaru might also be connected to this.might explain how Kabutomaru knows alot of shit...Edo tensei...when you absorb someone ,their knowledge pass on to you(Sasuke's knowledge of snake techs...)is at least what i think.his experiments with peoples DNA...heck,if he can make someone out of Hashirama's dna,why would Madara's be so hard to get?hm?but i want the theories and ot so sure stuff to be out so i wont mention them here but right now iam making a "Tobi's true identity/Madara" theory/proof,which explains me going through the manga again.

Encon Uchiha 05-12-2010 12:22 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AkamaruChewtoy (Post 1810814)
Cue someone with an Obito joke.

Simple points:

Minato has no reason to know that it was Madara behind the mask or know him as Tobi. That's why he wasn't able to give Naruto more.

Minato has no reason to lie to Naruto about the attack; Madara had every reason to lie to Sasuke. One of the factors leading into the decision to massacre the Uchiha was the suspicion that an Uchiha was behind Kyuubi attack, taken with the evidence known by the elders that the Sharingan can control the Kyuubi. For Madara to reveal his involvement would turn Sasuke against him.

That's it. The rest is the old debate of "is Tobi really Madara" which has been discussed a lot. My nutshell - until anyone proves otherwise, I'm going with it. Simplest explanation rather than having to explain why he would pretend.


with all this proof in the manga...it seems clear to me that Tobi is not Madara Uchiha.thanks for your opinion:)

SilverbladeVI 05-12-2010 12:34 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Good theory.

However, Itachi confirmed THIS. From what Madara told Sasuke. Its all lies. It was to manipulate the darkness in his heart. The same shit he done to Nagato.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/000...0000386/11.jpg


The weird thing that is going on here is this shit.

When he took off his Mask.
Kisame said Mizukage. THEN was about to say another name
Then he was like. Yes it I Uchiha Madara to Kakashi

Kakashi doesn't believe it.

Tobi was a code name. To hide from Akatsuki members.
Only Pain, Konan and Itachi knew.

Zetsu, Hidan, Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori didn't know.

When Tobi met Zetsu. It was like. "HEY IM A NOOB. LET ME JOIN."
He threw on this persona around Deidara as well. Why he done it? To hide his identity. When Akatsuki were closer to their goal. This guy creeps out of the shadow.

Gaara captured. - Sasori dies - Madara goes undercover as a member.
Yugito captured. - Madara pairs with Deidara to capture three tails
Three tails captured - Madara begins to talk smack to other Akatsuki members.
Four tails Captured - Deidara, Kakazu and Hidan dies. Tobi reveals himself as Uchiha Madara.
After capturing 5,6,7 - Madara lets the world know its Him.

THE PROBLEM IS - When Tsuchikage stated "High Caliber Ninja could achieve anything he want" Yes. This guy was badass as Hashirama. The Rinnen'gan is going to restore his power.

Encon Uchiha 05-12-2010 01:07 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverbladeVI (Post 1810819)
Good theory.

However, Itachi confirmed THIS. From what Madara told Sasuke. Its all lies. It was to manipulate the darkness in his heart. The same shit he done to Nagato.


The weird thing that is going on here is this shit.

When he took off his Mask.
Kisame said Mizukage. THEN was about to say another name
Then he was like. Yes it I Uchiha Madara to Kakashi

Kakashi doesn't believe it.

Tobi was a code name. To hide from Akatsuki members.
Only Pain, Konan and Itachi knew.

Zetsu, Hidan, Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori didn't know.

When Tobi met Zetsu. It was like. "HEY IM A NOOB. LET ME JOIN."
He threw on this persona around Deidara as well. Why he done it? To hide his identity. When Akatsuki were closer to their goal. This guy creeps out of the shadow.

Gaara captured. - Sasori dies - Madara goes undercover as a member.
Yugito captured. - Madara pairs with Deidara to capture three tails
Three tails captured - Madara begins to talk smack to other Akatsuki members.
Four tails Captured - Deidara, Kakazu and Hidan dies. Tobi reveals himself as Uchiha Madara.
After capturing 5,6,7 - Madara lets the world know its Him.

THE PROBLEM IS - When Tsuchikage stated "High Caliber Ninja could achieve anything he want" Yes. This guy was badass as Hashirama. The Rinnen'gan is going to restore his power.

"Madara was behind the attack on konoha 16 years ago" as Itachi stated. Holy shit!thanx for reminding me,cant believe i forgot!i even wrote this down! but wait.Itachi says Madara was behind it.he may also be trying to cover things up for Sasuke and he may also be lying to him too.Itachi never wants Tobi to approach Sasuke to tell him the truth.this may be tied in with the "I WANNA TAKE YER EYES!"shit.but we cant be sure about that.we never know whos lying haha.He may mean that it was Madaras plan to attack konoha 16 years ago but it was accomplished by someone else.Madara was behind the attack...not Madara attacked konoha 16 years ago.Minato also says it the man in the mask,but not Madara.The Mizukage convo also adds to the suspicion that Tobi is not Madara.the other eye may have the MS,Rinnegan,or an empty eye,we may never know until Kishi lets it out.Based on your list of the "more tails we get,more info bout Tobi we get."i can guess that the 8-tails will be captured and thats when he'll reveal his face.

batonnoir 05-12-2010 05:40 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liondemon (Post 1810813)
Dont know. I always secretly thought that maybe Madara lived and in his old age, his last effort to destroy Konoha was 16 years ago. He failed and later died, but either had an Uchiha child years before this, or found some Uchiha apprentice who maybe was thought by Konoha and Uchiha to be killed during one of their world wars. Once Madara died, his "son or apprentice" decided to use the knowledge and training that Madara had given him about the Uchiha Senju pastand the Sharingan to use for his own goals. It was said that the 4th Mizukage could control a Buuji and that he apparently was under a genjutsu that resembled Danzou's. Maybe that was the elderly Madara or his "son/apprentice" with the Buuji controlling power and just made it seem as if it was the 4th Mizukage to get their "puppet" into office as Mizukage

I think Madara is behind that mask and in that other eye is his MS. Maybe the mask blocks even Dojutsu from seeing his chakra behind it. Madara only seems to have his Sharingan on to open a dimension, but something like that, requiring no hand signs, I would expect to require at least an MS like Kakashi. I think Minato and Itachhi were right and it was Madara that used Kyuubi to attack the village. Maybe Madara doesnt have both of his original eyes, but he should at least still have 1 MS to have controlled Kyuubi like he did in the past.

You mentioning the mask reminded me that Neji has looked at Madara with his Byakugan. I would think that if the face behind the mask was hidden via jutsu, that Neji would have mentioned it. This brings another question to mind...has anyone shown Neji a picture of Madara to verify that it was in fact Madara behind the mask???

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverbladeVI (Post 1810819)
Good theory.

However, Itachi confirmed THIS. From what Madara told Sasuke. Its all lies. It was to manipulate the darkness in his heart. The same shit he done to Nagato.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/000...0000386/11.jpg


The weird thing that is going on here is this shit.

When he took off his Mask.
Kisame said Mizukage. THEN was about to say another name
Then he was like. Yes it I Uchiha Madara to Kakashi

Kakashi doesn't believe it.

Tobi was a code name. To hide from Akatsuki members.
Only Pain, Konan and Itachi knew.

Zetsu, Hidan, Kisame, Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori didn't know.

When Tobi met Zetsu. It was like. "HEY IM A NOOB. LET ME JOIN."
He threw on this persona around Deidara as well. Why he done it? To hide his identity. When Akatsuki were closer to their goal. This guy creeps out of the shadow.

Gaara captured. - Sasori dies - Madara goes undercover as a member.
Yugito captured. - Madara pairs with Deidara to capture three tails
Three tails captured - Madara begins to talk smack to other Akatsuki members.
Four tails Captured - Deidara, Kakazu and Hidan dies. Tobi reveals himself as Uchiha Madara.
After capturing 5,6,7 - Madara lets the world know its Him.

THE PROBLEM IS - When Tsuchikage stated "High Caliber Ninja could achieve anything he want" Yes. This guy was badass as Hashirama. The Rinnen'gan is going to restore his power.

I know this isn't directly related to your post, but...

Every time I see this page, one thing strikes me as strange...Itachi's comment that, "Sadly, he was stopped again, this time by the Fourth Hokage".

What the hell did Itachi mean by that...Is this a matter of a bad translation. Is it unclear writing...or Is Itachi actually saying, I't a shame Konoha wasn't completely destroyed???

For now, I'm going to take it at face value and say that it's the latter, which means to me that something's very wrong with the words coming out of Itachi's mouth...

I'll leave it at that...for now.

freedom07 05-12-2010 06:16 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
yeh i agree minato has no reason to lie to naruto
also jiraiya said only 1 person could be behind the kyubii summon and thats madara

itachi had reasons to lie to sasuke
also madara definitely does

I personally want tobi to be madara

Najiro 05-12-2010 06:33 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
BTW how could Minato know it would be Madara behind the mask. I mean he saw a mask not a face so obviously he wouldn't know that it would be madara behind the mask. So that's why he said the member with the mask.

freedom07 05-12-2010 06:47 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
what surprises me is

how did minato know about akatsuki !
akatsuki hardly existed in that time right? it was only the beginning it had to be

no one knew about akatsuki till naruto was like 13 and jiraiya got info on it then kakashi knew
itachi was even well surprised that kakashi knew at that time

so how did minato know ?!!?!?
either it was a translation error or kishis mistake

I seriously think that minato had more than just his thunder flying god and rasengan
i dont think that makes him apparently the best ninja outt konoha at all
i reckon he has premonitions about the future
or he could time travel

just something that popped into my head after watching the new shippuden movie trailer where naruto goes 20 years back in time and minatos like " oh hi naruto "

stubborn_d0nkey 05-12-2010 07:03 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Encon Uchiha (Post 1810816)
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]but somehow i cant the the idea out of my head that Obito or some part of him has something to do with this story

I have an idea about that (its just an idea, so bare with it).

Maybe Madara* has gained the ability to absorb/use other sharingan's abilities. We saw that he collects them. This could explain why he wanted Shisui's eye that much, since it's power was unique. Maybe Obito's eyes were unique too, T/S wise.


*Its not proper to call him Tobi since that was an alias he doesn't use anymore, and even if he isn't Madara there is no alternative

The Special One 05-12-2010 07:14 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
I don't think Minato knew who was behind the mask at the time, but since Kishi threw in the deus ex machina thingy, Minato was viewing the events through Naruto's eyes. I'm guessing he was able to deduce what organization the masked man was from. After all, Naruto saw Tobi during the rescue Sasuke arc Part II (and Tobi wears the cloud shape patterns on his cloak).

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...5/page014.html

Kakashi was able to come to the conclusion that Uchiha Madara was behind the events, because Jiriaya obviously speculated it and told Kakashi.

So basically, Minato couldn't have known much, but since Minato can view the events after his death through Naruto's eyes, he must have worked out how Akatuski and this masked man relate to each other.

siduis 05-12-2010 07:21 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
where is it stated that he collects sharingans?

^^ minato knew about akatsuki because he saw it from narutos inside. like jmans death and this things.

when everybody things that only ems can control the kyuubi then it has to be madara. a little off-topic question :
from where should he (tobi/madara) get a rinnegan, the onlyone who had one has died in front of naruto and was taken by conan.

BLOOD_GOD 05-12-2010 07:42 AM

Re: Did Tobi really attack Konoha 16 years ago?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by siduis (Post 1810875)
where is it stated that he collects sharingans?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/488/17/

that's where it's stated. He collects sharingans. A fuckload of them.

anyway, we all know Madara was behind the attack on Konoha. Minato stated so. Madara will die. Kabuto will be the end villain. >:D a.k.a. The Rebirth of Orochimaru. FTFW!


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