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Old 01-26-2010, 09:54 AM   #13
Dagoro
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Re: Ichigo should have been trained in kidoh

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form when it was overkill ??
It's different because Ichigo needed Bankai, while the other two didn't. Why can't Ichigo be strong without automatically relying on his Bankai? Going off that implication, Urahara and Yoruichi (assuming Bankai= approximately 5-10x one's power) would slaughter Ichigo.
You still don't understand my point. Yammy didn't even touch Ichigo before his hollow messed him up. That = overkill. Meaning Ichigo in Bankai was a much greater force than needed to take out Yammy as he was. That in no way shape or form means that just because Yoruichi and Urahara didn't use Bankai ( Urahara used Shikai, Yoruichi said herself she should have used Shunko ) it doesn't mean they are eons away from Ichigo, since his Bankai was overkill against Yammy.

As for GJ and Ulq let me give an example from the manga.

When Ichigo fought Byakuya in the SS arc they both started at shikai, Ichigo kept up with him just fine even managed to beat Senbozakura's shikai ability with his own.

After that They both escalated to Bankai, and Ichigo managed to overwhelm Byakuya with his Bankai before his body failed him forcing the hollow to step in. Byakuya is arguably one of the better captains and Ichigo kept up pretty well for his first time with Bankai, and back then he couldn't even control his hollow. Ichigo knew nothing of Byakuya's abilities so he tested him out during their fight while keeping Bankai as his ace.

GJ and Ulquiorra were different situations, he ran into both of them before on earth and lost. He knew how powerful they were so he didn't beat around the bush with Shikai.
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He uses it right before the match. How fun would it be if every good guy, or bad guy just went to the maximum form right off? I mean you can't really expect much surprises throughout the match. Thats why I like watching the captains fight over watching Ichigo fight. Fox man uses Bankai right out from the start as of lately though.
You're arguing from semantics, I'm arguing from the manga pov.

Byakuya vs Zommari

They knew nothing about each other, so they started at base escalating to resurrection and Bankai.

Same goes for Mayuri vs Szayel.

Ichigo on the other had already ran into GJ and Ulquiorra. He knew what he was up against.

Do you think Ichigo would waste time in a fight against Byakuya now when he knows what Byakuya is capable of ? Probably not.

He knows he has the speed advantage in Bankai, so logically he would bust it out immediately forcing Byakuya into his own Bankai.
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He was offed the moment Shunsui's Shikai effect kicked in. He was killed kind of effortlessly. And we have to take into account his Shikai doesn't work all the time. What if it just happened to work right after Stark released? And Ukitake told Shunsui not to use his Bankai. If Shunsui had done so, that would mean Stark could have looked even more pathetic.

Shunsui wasn't even fighting at full strength and that screaming kid distracted Shunsui as well, which allowed for Stark to shoot him in the back. They both played kind of dirty...
My point is that Stark didn't lose because Shunsui is way more powerful than he was, he lost because Shunsui's abilities make it incredibly difficult to fight back. Stark was doing just fine, he set both love and Rojuro on fire before Shunshui stepped in and sprung his crazy Shikai on him.

Based on feats Stark can handle physical abilities from a Zanpaktou just fine, but Shunsui has a very confusing haxx. That is why he lost.
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Yeah you're not getting what I'm saying.

Ichigo in Bankai used Getsuga, this hardly put a dent in Grimm's armor...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/212/05/

Tousen's unreleased Zanpaktou cut off Grimm's arm... I'm talking about the strength of the attack this time, not the circumstances...
And you employed selective reading upon my post to try and bend thing to your side.

I'll quote myself as well.
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Besides, comparing Tousen with Ichigo is like comparing raw ore with a bar of gold. One has had years of training and has refined his abilities, the other is being thrust into the fray while trying to berserk through.
________________________________________ _____

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Yet he has to face Aizen... You'd think by this point in time he'd seem in a way capable of defeating Aizen... Not 100% of course, but it should look as though he's capable. In no way does it appear as though Ichigo is on par with the upper captains... That's really what it boils down to. HE's better than the average captain, but at the same time, probably no where near them.
This i agree with, except with one tiny snag. While conscious.

When his Hollow takes over into resurrection........i have my doubts, I'm talking about power not control.


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You are forgetting one very important thing dude (dagoro), that is none of the captains used kidoh. It was just bare sword play. Don't you think using kidoh could have led us into a more interesting scenario.

I am not against Ichigo using Bankai people but if you see every captain uses bankai at some point but NOT AT THE BEGINNING OF A BATTLE. Here Ichigo going Bankai prior to every fight it becomes a common scene isn't it ? If you compare Ichigo's strength with other captains he has the hollow form thats what sets him apart. Otherwise he's very ordinary. Teaching him kidoh could have closed the gap.
Soifon used Kido against a fraccion, which he proceeded to break with a cero. What is the point of Kidou if the opponent can simply muscle through it ?

Unless you happen to be Hacchi, none of the captains except for Aizen have shown anything even close to that lvl of Kudou prowess, which is understandable since Hacchi specializes on Kidou and they don't.

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Lots of them in fact. Starting with yama ji who has showed us the slash of his ruujin jakka. I don't think he needs pulling bankai out against any espada EXCEPT AIZEN since he has wide range of kidoh attacks up his sleeves.

Next on the list is sunshui. We see him hitting stark with the weird game of his of choosing colors. He didn't even say "BANKAI" so that was not his Bankai at all. If he can defeat stark he can defeat no. 4 or 6 with his eyes closed. No matter how many resurrection this ULQ guy has he'll be blown apart by the color game.

Sui fon purely because she has a zampakhtou which needs two strikes to kill. Plus she is the second squad captain. Second squad members have to have special skills in hand to hand combat to tackle criminals (which is kidoh btw)

Byakuya (He is totally cool headed guy). He blew zomari luroux like a fly. Though he used Bankai at the end he gave the poor guy a taste of heavyweight Binding spells.
I hope this is a joke. I have no doubt that Yama can handle either one based on the hype around him but based on feats:

Shunsui: For what he has shown now, Ulquiorra would destroy him. He made bankai/hollowed Ichigo look like a snail on the speed department, and superficial damage like the kind Shunsui inflicted on Stark is nothing to him. Ulquiorra died because Ichigo while in resurrection destroyed all of the organs below his chest line, which he cannot regenerate.

Shunsui as we know him now can't kill Ulquiorra based on feats.

Soifon: Both GJ and Ulq would destroy her. GJ overwhelmed Bankai/hollowed Ichigo in the speed and power department at times. His hand to hand skills are incredibly developed since he has no blade while resurrected, and he has long rage capabilities. Soifon's bankai could kill GJ but based on feats he has the edge on her as an opponent.

Ulq would vaporize Soifon, its not even funny. He has way better speed feats, his cero is ridiculous and lanca del relanpago can be fired multiple times while Soifon's missile has been shown to have a very strict limit.

Byakuya: He would also lose to both. GJ and Ulq have the speed advantage based on feats. So good luck catching them with Senbozakura Kageyoshi. Kidou is all he has besides that. Its pretty self explanatory.

Last edited by Dagoro; 01-26-2010 at 10:09 AM.
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