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Old 07-31-2011, 10:24 AM   #66
UchihaTaijiya
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Re: Jesus, not the first

I personally don't like to debate about whether God exists or doesn't. And I didn't read this thread, just the latest post by Mibs. And it reminded me of a convo on fb. Hope yall enjoy reading this, I certainly did. It goes on for 111 posts, but I'll just start with a chunk and if anyone wants more, I'll post the rest.

All of these people believe in God. But they disagree on the nature of God presented in the Bible. Go figure. Certainly though, this is a far more entertaining debate than: I believe. And I don't believe. You're irrational. You have no faith.

Since a lot of people on here do not believe, It'd be cool to see yalls reactions to this, even if you wont get a response. If nothing, do it for my pleasure. 8] <3
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Franky
Either God is sovereign or He isn't.
July 8 at 6:03pm via Facebook Mobile · Like ·

Benjamin
Is. Pascal would take that bet.
July 8 at 6:04pm · Like

Kieren
He is! I'll respond to your message soon
July 8 at 6:40pm · Like

Bryant
He isn't.
July 8 at 7:15pm · Like · 1 person

Todd
Can't he be sovereign, but choose to not control whatever he wanted to? I don't think the idea of a sovereign God automatically means he is in complete control over every single little thing.
July 8 at 7:48pm · Like

Franky
Eh then its not sovereignty, its potentiality.
July 8 at 7:54pm · Like

Todd
Not really. It is like right now I have the power to turn off the light in my room, but I actively am choosing not to at the moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that I have the power to do it. If God exists he would have to be able to be in control of everything, but that doesn't mean he actively is. He's God he can do whatever he wants. The sovereignty/non-sovereignt​y question is kind of pointless.
July 8 at 7:58pm · Like · 2 people

Benjamin
The term sovereignty might be the issue, as it implies differing levels of micromanagement depending on the person. Perhaps the term "omniderigent" might help?
July 8 at 8:16pm · Like

Franky
If you have the power over the light switch, you are sovereign over it. If you ignore it, you are still doing so in your sovereignty
July 8 at 8:16pm · Like

Cade
http://www.desiringgod.org​/blog/pos...ven-si​n
July 8 at 8:18pm · Like

Bryant
Hmph. I thought my comment would be a little more conversation-inspiring.
July 8 at 8:32pm · Like · 1 person

William
Sovereignty is a human political metaphor. Human political metaphors are crappy ways to describe and understand a metaphysical being that transcends all human categories.
July 9 at 2:42am · Like · 1 person

Todd
Franky you just helped make my point for me. Just because God has control over everything doesn't mean he is actively controlling everything. Like I said earlier He is God. He can do what he wants. Which makes this whole debate/question a fruitless one. No one will ever be able to find an answer for it.
July 9 at 8:05am · Like · 1 person

William
The problem with the whole conception of sovereignty, in my opinion, is that when you couple that with omnipotence and especially determinism you are arguing that all the women that have been raped and children that have been molested were done so because He wanted them to be. Which is at the very best a hard pill to swallow, and in reality seems very wicked to the point of blasphemy. Especially if you know women that were raped, children molested and so on.
July 9 at 9:49am · Like · 1 person

Franky
I am in total agreement with your lightswitch analogy. The only problem that arises is when you claim that an omniscient being ignores things. It doesn't transfer from a human to a god very well
July 9 at 10:29am · Like

Franky
Bill, the harder pill to swallow is to believe in a weak god.
July 9 at 12:30pm · Like · 1 person

Todd
I don't think you would say that if you were molested or raped for that matter
July 9 at 12:38pm · Like · 1 person

Bryant
Like ^
July 9 at 1:19pm · Like

Todd
Also wouldn't a God that has his hand in springing up 'false' religions so that they can do battle with the one true religion just because he can, and does all of the awful things that take place in our world be more akin to a tyrant then a kind and benevolent god? I think it is far more likely that he just hangs out and watches what we do. That doesn't mean he can't affect things, or that he is ignoring us. It just means he wants us to figure it out and make the right choices on our own.
July 9 at 1:30pm · Like

Bryant
Okay. I can’t hold it back anymore. I’m jumping in. Get ready for a long one

The reason I said that God was not sovereign was simply that what most people mean by the word “sovereign” is, in my opinion, very different from the Biblical idea of sovereignty, and quite different from what I think sovereignty is. Instead of saying, “Yes, I believe God is sovereign, BUT…” I think it becomes more accurate for me to say, “Nevermind. Our understanding of sovereignty is so different that it’s just as true for me to say that I do not believe God is sovereign, because what that words means to me is so different from what it means to you.”

From what I have heard, people use the word “sovereign” to say that God is the puppet master. He pulls all the strings; he controls the show. Every action that the puppets make is a direct result of the manipulation of the puppet master.

Honestly, I would have to agree with @William on this issue: in all sincerity and love, I think such a claim is blasphemy (not putting words in your mouth here, because I don’t think I’ve heard your take on sovereignty lol. Just going off of what I hear from others). I think such a notion about God is possibly one of the many reasons the church is failing so badly today.

Here’s the deal: going with the “puppet master” definition of sovereignty, you have to arrive at the conclusion that sin is in the world because God wants it there. And I definitely count that as blasphemous. Look at how Jesus responded to sin in God’s presence at the temple when he drove out the money changers. That’s how passionately God despises sin. How could anyone possibly think that God wants sin in the world?

To say that God caused the very thing he hates is to completely undermine God’s righteousness and holiness. In an attempt to make God more powerful, we actually undermine his true power, because we basically are calling God a hypocrite for condemning that which He caused. Absurd.

Here is what I mean when I say God is sovereign: He’s in control. Nothing escapes his notice. Nothing is too great for him. Basically, what he says goes. But, as has been previously stated, God doesn’t necessarily exercise that control. He withholds his own hand (now there is some sovereignty for you! Even greater than the power to control the world is having the ability to control the world but having the power to restrain oneself despite that fact). God does not act on his desires and wishes, but suppresses those for the sake of greater desires and plans.

Let me clarify that. God does not wish for there to be sin in the world. He doesn’t want pain. He doesn’t want the world to be in the state it is. The garden of Eden was what God wished for life on earth to look like. However, He obviously didn’t stop things from turning out the way they are now. And I believe that’s because God had a higher plan: He allows evil because He didn’t create us to be puppets. He created children—people, with hearts, minds, and choices. He gives us the choice so that we aren’t merely robots, but we choose him because we choose him, not that he forces us to.

He doesn’t intervene with our pursuits of self-destruction, because then he would be destroying the very thing he created in the first place: an autonomous soul capable of loving Him. That’s the reason He created us in the first place, so he’s not going back on that.

That said, I don’t think he just sits back and watches as we flounder. I believe wholeheartedly that He desires to redeem us, and pursues us completely. But He still allows us to choose right or wrong. It’s still our choice.
July 9 at 2:46pm · Like · 2 people

Todd
I'm not reading it because it is long and I'm an American, but I'm just going to agree with whatever he said.
July 9 at 2:49pm · Like

Franky
So are you saying that God has this big wonderful plan, but he just kinda looks over the means of achieving it that are "dirty" ... leaving the blame on 'lesser actors' maybe?
July 9 at 2:57pm · Like

Bryant
Nope. I'm saying God has the plan that he wants, which also happens to be what's the best for us. But he doesn't force us to choose it.

I'm saying there's a difference between God's plan for someone's life, and the path that that person actually follows.
July 9 at 3:06pm · Like

Joseph
Franky, I haven't read the whole conversation, but I can tell you where to go for a very good read on the sovereignty of God and the problem of evil: the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. I've got the library's copy atm, but I'll be returning it this week.
July 9 at 3:32pm · Like

Franky
Bryant, when do you think God made his plan for us
July 9 at 5:46pm · Like

Cameron
I have had first hand experience with the "bad" of this world...death, rape, murder...God uses it all to further his kingdom. And to say that God is not sovereign over these things is to say someone or something else is...THAT I would say is blasphemous!
July 10 at 12:02am · Like
__________________
If the elephants have past lives yet are destined to always remember
It's no wonder how they scream
Like you and I they must have some temper

And I am dreaming of them on the plains
Dirtying up their beds
Watching for some sign of rain to cool their hot heads

And how dare that you send me that card when I'm doing all that I can do
You are forcing me to remember when all I want is to just forget you

If the tiger shall protect her young then tell me how did you slip by
All my instincts have failed me for once
I must have somehow slept the whole night

And I am dreaming of them with their kill
Tearing it all apart
Blood dripping from their lips and teeth sinking into heart

And how dare that you say you'll call
When you know I need some peace of mind
If you have to take sides with the animals
Won't you do it with one who is kind

And if the hawks in the trees need the dead
If you're living you don't stand a chance
For a time though you share the same bed
There are only two ends to this dance

You can flee with your wounds just in time or lie there as he feeds
Watching yourself ripped to shreds and laughing as you bleed

So for those of you falling in love keep it kind
Keep it good
Keep it right
Throw yourself in the midst of danger but keep one eye open at night

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