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Old 07-31-2011, 12:10 PM   #69
UchihaTaijiya
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Numinous, I've seen people rationalize rape, molestation, disease and murder as ways of 'tearing the victim(or victims loved ones in case of death; or the parents/siblings in cases such as child molestation) down'. To break their spirit so that they in turn seek God and his grace. Cause you know, they were too prideful and shit. 8/

Here's some more of the convo lol 8]
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Daniel
You set up a false dilemma for one thing. There may well have been positives that accompanied the tragedy, I would never deny that because that has been my experience too. But to say that God did that because he somehow needed it to happen is quite another matter. God, in his grace, gave you the ability to rise above tragedy and to continue to live your life in a positive and fulfilling way. That is quite a different situation.
July 10 at 12:32am · Like · 1 person

Cameron
See, either I believe in a fully sovereign God, or I don't believe in God at all. For me, I am where I am fully because of God and his infinite Grace. I refuse to believe that God merely created a world, and then some other being created what we refuse to admit that God could create. If God is not sovereign over sin or death or anything else "bad", then who is?
July 10 at 12:39am · Like · 1 person

Franky
Anyone who wrongs an infinite being deserves infinite punishment, therefore all deserve infinite punishment because all have wronged God (unless one is without fault AT ALL) therefore God can JUSTLY do all things to all people, what is remarkable (and only remarkable when God is viewed in this manner) is that He shows mercy upon those he wishes to show mercy on. THAT is what is hard to understand. How is it that he forgives so freely, when He is perfectly just and righteous in punishing us for sinning against his infinitcy?
July 10 at 12:54am · Like · 1 person

Cameron
I still don't fully understand that...but I would rather believe in a God who is responsible for everything, than to pick and choose what I think is just for him to be responsible for...
July 10 at 12:56am · Like

Daniel
There is a lot of bad in the world. Does God somehow need it? If he does, he isn't all good. He's a douche in fact. Nothing is all or nothing. I don't believe in any other being but God. There is no God but God and he has many prophets. No devil, no hell, no other power in this universe than the one that wants us to be the best that we can be, God.
July 10 at 12:56am · Like

Cameron
Then how do you explain "bad" stuff? If God is not sovereign over it, then who is?
July 10 at 12:58am · Like

Daniel
Any infinite being that can be wronged is by definition not infinite as it can be hurt or hold a grudge which sounds awfully human to me at least. Of he needs to punish he isn't infinite in his mercy is he? I could let you list contradictions all night. But how can you not see a problem there Frankster?

Bad stuff happens because it does. Because we live short lives in this flesh and that we suffer at the hands of short sighted and selfish people who are not seeking God.
July 10 at 1:01am · Like

Daniel
*if he needs to punish...
July 10 at 1:03am · Like

Cameron
So, the ideas of "wrong" just pop into our heads? The difference is you think God owes mankind something...God owes us nothing...as Frank said, he could send every last one of us to Hell and be completely just in doing so!
July 10 at 1:09am · Like

Daniel
Watch this video. These people were accused of witchcraft and are burned alive by their neighbors. If what you say is true then God wants this and you should rejoice in seeing his will done. There is no evil too bad for God to have commanded for the carrying out of his plan. If it makes you puke, like I did, then you may want to take some time and pray. This is the real. Where the rubber meets the road. Where what you and Franky say intersects with reality, with people, with humanity. Heed the warning. I do not exagerate.

*WARNING YOU CAN NEVER UN-SEE THIS. IT WILL HARM YOUR SOUL*

http://www.liveleak.com/vi​ew?i=dae_1236854361
July 10 at 1:17am · Like

Franky
Nothing can compare to the greatest crime and sin ever conceived, which occurred at calvary, and there is no Christian out there who would say that God did not plan that. (nobody id call a christian anyway)
July 10 at 1:23am · Like

Daniel
You lack guts young Franky. I don't blame you. I wish I had never seen this video. This is what your god wanted though. By your own admission. These people were chosen from the day they were born to die in a make-shift bon-fire at the hands of their neighbors. Too bad for them. That's your god though. He needed for these people to die. He needed it because apparently he needs humans to suffer and die at his pleasure. If you need to believe that, God help you. God help you.
July 10 at 1:45am · Like

Franky
Yes, I firmly believe all things happen by his will. Even that. Even rape and murder. Even the slow decay of your own beloved. Even the scarring memories of sexual abuse. Even the transmission of HIV. Even this very conversation. Even the death of a bird in flight, for even one if these does not fall from the sky apart from my father's wishes.

Hes got guts so I don't have to.
July 10 at 1:51am · Like · 1 person

Joseph
The idea of God being the direct cause of evil was so hard that even the medievals couldn't conceive of Him that way. And these were people who thought it was cool to rip a man limb from limb with horses and draw and quarter criminals. That should tell you something...
July 10 at 2:00am · Like · 1 person

Cameron
What crime can be greater than killing the son of God...or killing God for that matter? I think it is you and people like you who lack guts...you only accept to believe what is "easy" to believe. Of course one will believe that God just created life and not death or anything that appears to no be in our interests and hes a happy being that never gets angry...but that is not the God of scripture, nor the God who plucked me from despair and clothed me in his Mercy and Grace!
July 10 at 2:27am · Like

Daniel
then your god is a dick and cannot overcome human instincts. and I worship him not. May the real god have mercy on your soul.
July 10 at 2:35am · Like

Cameron
if there's no hell, then there is no need for mercy...I'm afraid it is you who need mercy though!
July 10 at 2:39am · Like

Daniel
No, those people who were burned needed it. I hope they get it. I need only what god has given me, Grace.
July 10 at 2:40am · Like

Joseph
I guess you'd be saying it is I that need mercy as well then. Calvin nearly caused me to abandon the faith. I can't stand the man nor the monstrosity he created. What purpose does starting this conversation serve? All that's happened here is that the name of God has been besmirched. It has glorified no one and serves as an example to others as to why they should not become Christian. Arguments such as this are not in the interest of the faith.
July 10 at 2:44am · Like

Cameron
I disagree completely...my point is not that I don't need mercy while you do...my point is that every human being needs mercy, and God is the only one who can give it. I pray that God has mercy on everyone...I take no pride in myself...I am a wretched sinner, God's Grace alone gives me any cause for hope!
July 10 at 2:48am · Like

Daniel
they are exactly in the interest of the faith. At least I think so. That the faithful may gravitate towards a more merciful god.
July 10 at 2:48am · Like
__________________
If the elephants have past lives yet are destined to always remember
It's no wonder how they scream
Like you and I they must have some temper

And I am dreaming of them on the plains
Dirtying up their beds
Watching for some sign of rain to cool their hot heads

And how dare that you send me that card when I'm doing all that I can do
You are forcing me to remember when all I want is to just forget you

If the tiger shall protect her young then tell me how did you slip by
All my instincts have failed me for once
I must have somehow slept the whole night

And I am dreaming of them with their kill
Tearing it all apart
Blood dripping from their lips and teeth sinking into heart

And how dare that you say you'll call
When you know I need some peace of mind
If you have to take sides with the animals
Won't you do it with one who is kind

And if the hawks in the trees need the dead
If you're living you don't stand a chance
For a time though you share the same bed
There are only two ends to this dance

You can flee with your wounds just in time or lie there as he feeds
Watching yourself ripped to shreds and laughing as you bleed

So for those of you falling in love keep it kind
Keep it good
Keep it right
Throw yourself in the midst of danger but keep one eye open at night

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