sublimis ab unda
Join Date: Feb 2006
Thanked 3,311 Times in 1,248 Posts
Re: Jesus, not the first
Yeah. I actually used to know Franky pretty well in high school. He's this short, red haired guy who had a huge crush on me. And he had a great sense of humor. I so don't know when he became this way. Must have something with him going to an Alabama University. 8] I kid. But seriously... I co-sign your reaction: HOLY SHIT T_T
One of the sanest remarks from that convo was from Jim: Jim
I was going to post a flippant remark on sovereignty, but then I read the conversation. Wow. At a certain point the question ceases to be 'how sick is your god' and becomes 'how sick are you'. Those who worship a genocidal, murdering pedophile really ought to ask themselves, "How sick is this that I'm doing?"
Here's the end of the convo:
Joseph, I worship Christ Crucified. That death was the greatest wrong ever committed. Are you suggesting that God's hands are not behind it?
July 10 at 4:19pm · Like
Adam made the choice...now we are all destined to pay for that choice!
July 10 at 4:47pm · Like
Franky Garcia et alii:
July 10 at 5:48pm · Like
The fact that a conception of God is harder to swallow is, at best, tangentially relevant. Why do you have to follow only a God that fits into nice, neat, logically secure and sweepingly majestic conception of God, from your point? Really. Do you want to follow goodness, or the most powerful thing? If you require logical neatness, great power, mind boggling strength, security, etc... couldn't that be getting in the way of seeing truth or following goodness? I don't buy into determinism, not because I want freedom. Personally I think freedom, and especially my own isn't worth a jar of spit.
July 10 at 5:52pm · Like
I don't buy into it, because the argument from the greatest strength doesn't move me. So what, a thing can be strong, sovereign, etc etc, and very much evil. There could also be a God that has chosen, or is confined by His own actions and commitments, but who is merciful, kind, tender and loving. Of course, there are thousands of possibilities in between. I just don't trust the urge to staple God to a board and dissect Him for my own security, or so that I can feel vindicated.
July 10 at 5:56pm · Like
And when people invoke wish fulfillment as a grounds for questioning or dismissing others positions (an ad hominem, by the way) be very sure that your commitments aren't just based on your own wish fulfillment desires. I've learned too much about myself and others, personally, to not think most of what we all believe is ultimately just an attempt to fashion a world after our own image.
July 10 at 6:00pm · Like
Oh, and so many of these arguments are just: This is my definition of God, if He doesn't fit that then He isn't God and/or I have no obligations toward Him. Totally doesn't follow from anyone's arguments and is a crappy argument from either side. If there is a God (I feel there is, of some kind, I'm just not sure what that means, though I feel pretty confident in a Christian conception) then what He/She/It is is wholly independent from what we want God to be, and any ethical obligations that puts on us are wholly independent of whether we want them or not. From my perspective, any conception of God is problematic, and ultimately I have my own dim wits and the movements of my heart to go on, and very little else when it comes to understanding that. So we are all pretty well in the same boat on that score. What I do know from personal experience is that if my strongest motivations for accepting a position aren't honesty, the hunger for truth, the thirst for real goodness, basic and strong ethical commitments, and a radical understanding of the tragedy and brokenness of the world alongside the desire to see it healed, then I'm inevitably spinning my wheels and spiritually and emotionally jerking myself off. It's harder to accept ignorance, limitation, brokenness, sorrow, and confusion than it is to convince yourself you have a good grip and that being right and secure are better.
July 10 at 6:12pm · Like
the problem is how can our definitions of kind, tender, and loving be applied to the creator of everything? The only dissecting of God agree with is scripture... just because we think something is mean, does not mean that the creator of the universe can also be given that same description!
July 10 at 6:31pm · Like
Maybe, but ultimately we all proceed on our own dull wits. So in some sense I agree with you. BUT, that a thing created the world doesn't imply we SHOULD worship it. That that thing tells me I should show gratitude, doesn't imply that I have to, or that it is right to do so. A thought experiment: A Creator makes all of mankind just to serve as snacks at an intergalactic pit stop. Does that mean that we should be okay with that?
July 10 at 6:34pm · Like
And as for the "He does it for the glory" explanation, I don't buy it. It makes God sound like a gangbanger. I think it's just one of many theological solutions that's really just weaseling out of the real answer: We are in no position to know. As with almost everything important in life.
July 10 at 6:41pm · Like
right...we should worship God because he sent his son to die for our sins...we are all sinners deserving of the lowest pit of Hell. Would you agree with that at least?
July 10 at 6:48pm · Like
I would agree that I have done some things in MY life that have earned MY destruction.
July 10 at 7:07pm · Like