Originally Posted by Numinous
I always found free will a paradoxical excuse for God's inactivity. Not only in the Bible he intervened a lot of times, free will actually breaks one of his statuses: if free will is applied and he's omni-benevolent, then he isn't omnipotent since he isn't capable of intervening even with free will; if free will is applied and he's omnipotent, then he isn't omni-benevolent because he has the capacity of intervening even with free will but doesn't do so.
And, to be honest, I've seen people excusing child rape with free will, so fuck that notion.
Too bad the Bible is packed with verse condemning unbelievers to death and/or God's smite. So if that's not the view of most Christians or the Pope's, please update your moral codex.
Sorry I've been away.. this conversation has really surprised me.First I want to comment on sin and what I know it to be. And again this is my own personal belief and isn't any christian doctrine.
I was reading this book ..it was some government thriller by that guy who did deception point. Any way there was this small banter in the book and dude and his wife always did correspondence ending in the term " Without wax" which is what Sincerely means. Sin meaning without and Cera meaning wax. In the past if a stone statue was perfect then it was said to be without wax, meaning it didn't have any blemishes that would require wax to fill in the imperfections.
The key point I honed in on was Sin meant without. I was in Wal-mart in the laundry aisle and saw the Spanish translation on some fragrance free detergent said "sin Fragrancia"
So I came to the conclusion that sin just means without.. which makes sin not only an action but also a state of being.
Your body here on earth is not in heaven .. where God dwells, we are essentially "without his presence".. so what does this mean. it means that Sin is in the flesh. the mere fact that you're born here on earth means that you are without God thus born into a state of sin.
Now as for the action part look at what are considered to be sins, Stealing, Lying, Coveting, Killing, Suicide. How do they equate to being sins
Stealing- you tried to provide "on your own" without god
Lying- God is truth the reason humans could no longer stay in the garden was because they caused sin to enter the world. ** whatever power the Juubi tree fruit" had it tainted eve and Adam to the point where they could no longer withstand gods glory (yes I just wove Naruto into this.. it is the Naruto section after-all)
Coveting- not trusting god to do for you what he has done for others
Killing- intervening and ending life before God. thus you become a counter to his will
Suicide- same as killing but is a serious slap in gods face because you take his gift of life and throw it away
Originally Posted by Numinous
Here are three people without opinions I disagree with, but I honestly hold HR in higher consideration. He as the most outrageous statements, the less versed arguments and several leaps of logic, but he has what the other two don't have: self-awareness and honesty. He's the first to admit his case is faulty and that is what makes him comfortable, not what is right because he's right. On the other hand, we have KYF and MrBig, who continue to be two clueless boobs that pretend to have a clue and project towards and mock those who actually have a clue.
Also thanks for this.. I appreciate the fact that you understood where I was coming from
As for the Free will argument God gave man free will to test his love for the lord. We through our trials and tribulations are tested by God sometimes and sometimes By Satan. this life is just the recruitment center for both armies. this war isn't a physical war but a war of ideology.
God wanted to give us a chance to gain power and a way to be with him forever so he pitched his plan and needed a savior to help us get back to him. Because once born on earth we wouldn't have any memory of our previous state as a spirit in heaven.
Satan spoke up first and said he would go down and show the way and when he got back at the end of existence the honor power and glory would be his because of what he had done.
The spirit of Jesus said he would come down show the way and the power and glory would remain God's. This pissed Lucifer off he gathered his army and they stormed God's thrown where he cast he and his followers out.
So this life needs free will so on judgement day it will be a clear case made for which camp you will fall into.
**again this is my personal understanding of the two topics and in no way claim to be a spokesman for any christian Muslim or Jew**