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Old 08-01-2007, 05:23 AM   #1
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Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

Okay before you chew me out, I like to bring something up. I heard a few people mention that the only reason why Sasuke beat Orochimaru, was because he was in his weakened state. But if Orochimaru was in his top form, would it had made much a difference? I know you guys probably don't understand what I'm saying, but on all accords, Itachi has never laid a finger on Orochimaru, yet Itachi is given so much credit for taking him down, when he merely used his sharingan. Suppose Orochimaru is the better shinobi, he is one of the great Sannin, but Sasuke stated that him wanting the Uchiha power made him ridiculous or something.

Perhaps Sasuke was right, if Orochimaru was not so obsessed with the Uchiha's power, he could have been better off and would not have been defeated by Itachi. If Itachi and Orochimaru squared off without Orochimaru attempting to steal Itachi's body, do you think the outcome could have been a little different? Orochimaru tried to take over Itachi's body, but his sharingan's genjutsu was stronger than Orochimaru's, so if he just went out, with the intent to kill, don't you think the battle would have been longer and more thought out on Orochimaru's part? Than we have Sasuke telling Karin that Orochimaru was in a weakened state when fighting him.

http://www.islandne.com/online/?g2_itemId=12644

If Sasuke's anywhere near Itachi's level, that could mean a numerous of things. Perhaps if Orochimaru was not so obsessed, he might not of underestimated either Itachi and Sasuke's sharingan, and believed that their bloodline traits was the only source of achieving great power in the end, he could have learned to avoid the Sharingan's genjutsu and fight with them on a better level. We've seen Deidara break down Sasuke's sharingan's genjutsu, perhaps Orochimaru, with his skill in genjutsu, could have had a better chance against Itachi...
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:14 AM   #2
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

Well, I've always thought that Orochimaru was better AND stronger than Itachi. People just think he's weak because Itachi resisted Orochimarus attempt to take over his body (not the same thing as beating Orochimaru in battle) and Sasuke took it a step further when Orochimaru was weakened and basically hospitalized.

I'm pretty sure that full strength Oro would not fall to sharingan so easily (Itachi might still win, but I doubt even that)... if someone like Gai knows ways to fight against the sharingan, I'm sure Oro does too. He just had other goals than beating them. He wanted their bodies, which required him to go inside their heads and the sharingan just happens to be a very good weapon against that.

Itachi was even so afraid of Jiraya, who is probably weaker than Orochimaru or at least his equal.
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:34 AM   #3
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Originally Posted by Kakkakuzu View Post
Well, I've always thought that Orochimaru was better AND stronger than Itachi. People just think he's weak because Itachi resisted Orochimarus attempt to take over his body (not the same thing as beating Orochimaru in battle) and Sasuke took it a step further when Orochimaru was weakened and basically hospitalized.

I'm pretty sure that full strength Oro would not fall to sharingan so easily (Itachi might still win, but I doubt even that)... if someone like Gai knows ways to fight against the sharingan, I'm sure Oro does too. He just had other goals than beating them. He wanted their bodies, which required him to go inside their heads and the sharingan just happens to be a very good weapon against that.
If someone like "Gai"? Pfft, Gai has been training to fight against the sharingan for a long time, unlike that of Orochimaru who was easily beaten by a young Itachi, by a simple genjutsu. As Itachi said it himself, Orochimaru's jutsus are completely useless against his eyes. Orochimaru admited it himself that Itachi was indeed stronger then him. If Orochimaru had not been in love with the sharingan and wanted it for himself it would not have made a difference. Itachi is the type of person you lose to the second lock eyes if you are mentally weak.

Your pretty sure that a healthy Orochimaru wouldn't fall for the sharingan so easily? Then I suppose Orochimaru had a splinter at this time, right?



All of those countless jutsus that Orochimaru has, were useless and he wasn't able to perform any of them. If he had been able to perform them, it would have ended much like how it ended with Deidara. ZzZzzzzzz
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Old 08-01-2007, 11:57 AM   #4
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Your pretty sure that a healthy Orochimaru wouldn't fall for the sharingan so easily? Then I suppose Orochimaru had a splinter at this time, right?
I just said that Orochimaru didn't try to fight him to kill him. He tried to fight him to take over his body. There's a difference. If it was a fight to the death, there's no way that battle would end so easily. Or at least the whole manga loses what little credibility it had at that moment to me.

A guy who runs away from Jiraya (with a partner as well), beats Orochimaru with a simple genjutsu (alone)? Does not make sense.

Are you saying to me that Orochimaru is weaker to that genjutsu than Jiraya? Or that Jiraya has jutsus that aren't as useless as Orochimaru's jutsus? Orochimaru could take several heavy hits of different kinds from 4-tailed Kyuubi/Naruto, yet escaped in pretty good condition, but one simple genjutsu and he's done for? Does not compute.

Why exactly is Itachi so "afraid" of Jiraya anyway, if he already has beaten Orochimaru with a simple genjutsu...
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:06 PM   #5
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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I just said that Orochimaru didn't try to fight him to kill him. He tried to fight him to take over his body. There's a difference. If it was a fight to the death, there's no way that battle would end so easily. Or at least the whole manga loses what little credibility it had at that moment to me.

A guy who runs away from Jiraya (with a partner as well), beats Orochimaru with a simple genjutsu (alone)? Does not make sense.

Are you saying to me that Orochimaru is weaker to that genjutsu than Jiraya? Or that Jiraya has jutsus that aren't as useless as Orochimaru's jutsus? Orochimaru could take several heavy hits of different kinds from 4-tailed Kyuubi/Naruto, yet escaped in pretty good condition, but one simple genjutsu and he's done for? Does not compute.
How does that surprise you? Orochimaru's body is like a snake, meaning every scar he gets after the battle he sheds. Once he sheds, he has no more bruises, no more cuts, no more damage. Does Jiraiya have that ability? Of course not, that's why Jiraiya was left with that scar by naruto in his kyuubi state. Itachi hit Orochimaru where it hurts the most, mentally. Orochimaru's body as we've seen countless of times can take the biggest beatings and still come back to take some more, thus proving it's pretty useless to beat him that way. Which is perfect because someone like Itachi who doesn't usually get his hands dirty, can easily beat him through a mental state, a.k.a Genjutsu. By attacking his mind instead of his body he proved victorious.

Even if Orochimaru could do his ninjutsus and attempted to kill, what would it made a difference? The majority of his jutsus would have been either copied or used against him. Not to mention there's the Mangekyou Sharingan which would be an even easier way to kill Orochimaru.

The reason Itachi and Kisame had to run from that place was because they were going to be swallowed by the toad's throat. There was no way out of that situation without making a hole for yourself. Itachi knew that and wasted no time by using Amaterasu. His chakra reached an all time low and he had to run because Kisame alone couldn't beat Jiraiya. ZZzZzzz Itachi did not fight against Jiraiya so we don't know if Jiraiya could beat him or not.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:16 PM   #6
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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How does that surprise you?
Yes, it does.

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Even if Orochimaru could do his ninjutsus and attempted to kill, what would it made a difference?
It would've made the fight longer at least. Could've made it seem less unfair.

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Itachi did not fight against Jiraiya so we don't know if Jiraiya could beat him or not.
But he said that Jiraya was too strong for them.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:17 PM   #7
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Originally Posted by The Special One View Post
You're interpretation on that chapter page is a little different from this one:

- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/15/

It's a little strange, but I guess it depends on translator...
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:25 PM   #8
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Originally Posted by Nexus View Post
You're interpretation on that chapter page is a little different from this one:

- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/15/

It's a little strange, but I guess it depends on translator...

They still mean pretty much the seam thing.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:27 PM   #9
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Originally Posted by Nexus View Post
You're interpretation on that chapter page is a little different from this one:

- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/15/

It's a little strange, but I guess it depends on translator...
I see what you're saying.

I sort of get the same feeling about Sasuke's statement though. And being that they're close enough I would say they have the same meaning.

And more on topic, I really don't think it matters, there is a measure of "strength" in the Naruto world, but if you notice everything is more about balance. The elements all have a strength and weakness, the jutsu types do it too. I don't think it's about the difference in strength between Oro and Itachi, I think that Oro throws paper and Itachi throws scissors.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:33 PM   #10
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

Truth be told, even with all those Jutsus Orochimaru always gets beaten by the sharingan. I guess thats why he said that Naruto would never beat sasuke ZzZzzz.
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:37 PM   #11
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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I don't think it's about the difference in strength between Oro and Itachi, I think that Oro throws paper and Itachi throws scissors.
That's true. But what is usually meant by strength here is that someone like Oro can throw (his choice) rock, paper or scissors or maybe he even knows RPS 101 by heart. And cheaters like the Uchiha and Kakashi can just copy everyone.


(RPS 101 to those who don't know: http://www.umop.com/rps101/alloutcomes.htm )
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:08 PM   #12
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Originally Posted by Kakkakuzu View Post
That's true. But what is usually meant by strength here is that someone like Oro can throw (his choice) rock, paper or scissors or maybe he even knows RPS 101 by heart. And cheaters like the Uchiha and Kakashi can just copy everyone.


(RPS 101 to those who don't know: http://www.umop.com/rps101/alloutcomes.htm )
Oro just doesn't fight againist the sharingan good at all. Oro is a genius in every field of being a ninja, but the sharingan finds his weakness that he can't counter, because it takes a differnet type of skill. I don't think that they deserve to be called cheaters for that.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:27 PM   #13
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

The fight would not last long,once you get caught it is over.

But don't count oro out yet,he wasn't the third hokage's favriote for nothing.

If oro had time to come up with a plan,I am sure out of all the justus he knows if he mixed them up use them as combo's,the fight might last longer,for sure

We already know that the sharingian works on summons-When Sasuke used it on Manda.

So Manda is out of the question......but Orochimaru could use that summon the dead thing that he used on the third............

While Itachi is distracted he could do somthing...................a strong justu perhaps............

Sincerely garra.


Ps:I think Oro is stronger than itachi,if it were not for the sharingian................
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:50 PM   #14
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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I don't think that they deserve to be called cheaters for that.
Well, I was only joking. Kinda referring to some guy who just said on another thread that Naruto having the Kyuubi inside of him is like a "God mode".
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Old 08-01-2007, 02:00 PM   #15
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Re: Orochimaru, better (not stronger) shinobi than Itachi?

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Yes, it does.



It would've made the fight longer at least. Could've made it seem less unfair.



But he said that Jiraya was too strong for them.
I remember him saying the same thing regarding Jiraiya.

As for my theory, I think that Orochimaru, had he been trying to kill Itachi would have suceeded. But, I don't think he would have done it through open one-on-one combat. I think he would have assembled a squad, specially designed to counter Itachi's Sharingan. That said, it is really hard to say, we have not really seen too many of Itachi's abilities. I am sure he has many more than the one's we have seen and one of them could sway my thinking. However, Orochimaru was a Genius and I think not only a Genius as far as Ninjitsu us concerned but also a Genius in strategizing.
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