Miburo

No, the story and mythology are kind of cool. Not what stupid people do because they take that shit way too seriously. Stupidity doesn't go hand in hand with religion, it just gets amplified by it a lot of times. Doesn't mean it's impossible to believe in that shit and still be an overall rational, intelligent, caring, open-minded human being though.
Who cares? I don't give a shit what other people believe so long as they don't let that shit negatively impact other people. If having an imaginary friend helps people live their lives, then whatever. If they start saying that things that would help advance the field of healthcare and shit are bad and immoral because they think it's against their imaginary friend's wishes, then I get pissed off. Like I said, if you can believe in that shit without being a douche about it then it's all cool. If you can't, then it's not so cool. That's still people being stupid over religion itself being bad though.
Nah, you didn't miss out on any sarcasm this time, dude. You misinterpreted what I was saying, that's all. Is the concept of magic imaginary friends kind of stupid? Of course. But if you can believe in that shit without being an asshat about it, then what's it matter? Not like I don't have any illogical beliefs either. So who am I to tell people to be totally logical about shit all the time? All I ask is that they don't go fucking up everything else by taking it way too fucking seriously or thinking that other people should have to respect and take into account their illogical stuff. Know what I mean? : )

Miles T

Well, your main point is, as I suspected, seems to be that it's permissible because it can theoretically be benign, a type of argument I myself would have made until fairly recently.

However, extend your logic and I suspect you'll get inconsistent positions. Do you think everybody should be allowed to own nuclear weapons? No? Well, it's a similar situation here, just on a scale with less sudden detrimental implications: in practice, those who believe such 'shit' attempt to convert others and let their delusions influence their actions. In practice, if everybody owned nuclear weapons, some would be misused.

One needs only to look at how religion has affected humanity thus far to see the impracticality of condoning it.

Tsuna

My view of Christianity in one sentence:

"Going to church doesn't make you anymore of a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car."

I have nothing against Christians themselves, unless they are the kind that make it their life's mission to shove their religion down your throat. And just like you said, tell you what to do and what not to do. But what pisses me off even more than that are people that claim to be Christian, but live scandalous lives that contradict everything Christians are supposed to believe in.

But on another note:

I'll be the first to admit that I can be sort of bitter towards Christians. Mostly the ones who won't budge on their belief no matter what or who tells them otherwise. But, my father is what he calls a "die-hard Christian", and he would have been a pastor himself if he had the choice. He spent the first fourteen years of my life telling me just what you said the minister/pastor at the church did: He told me what to do, what not to do, what to say and what not to say, what was "Wrong" and what was "Right", and beyond that, he told me that sinners all went to hell because they were sinners, and that either you had to live by the Bible or you were condemned, and that was that. There was nothing you could do about it.

Needless to say, upon the discovery of the fact that I am an "abomination", I changed from the God-fearing Christian child I had been into someone who questioned any and everything about religion - and when neither my father nor the church officials (ministers, pastors, members of the choir, etc.) could answer those questions without using the phrase, "Because the Bible says so," and give me a good reason for why things were the way they were, I stopped believing in Christianity and haven't been able to identify myself with a religion ever since.

Miburo

You're absolutely right, it will be 'misused'. I never said otherwise.

On the flip side, should video games and violent television be banned because there are idiots that will try to imitate that shit and/or can't differentiate between fantasy and reality? Would you blame TV/Music/Books/etc. themselves for a person's actions? See where I'm going with this?

Stupid people are always going to do stupid things. You can make up almost any reason to take the blame off them and on something else, but in the end it's always going to boil down to "A lot of people are just fucking stupid."

Miles T

I think your analogy doesn't hold because 'TV/Music/Books/etc.' are not beliefs. Those who 'believe' in God do just that...they hold a belief. One can read a book or watch a programme or listen to music. It doesn't necessarily follow that a certain belief should be adhered to. However, that's exactly what is dictated by a belief in God. And, when one allows for...'making shit up' like that, it means allowing for any arbitrary beliefs. Consider also that our actions are invariably affected by our values.

However, I suppose my main argument is this: believing in God is not condonable because the positive aspects of that belief can be supplanted by other things that do not come with negative effects. Thus, to believe in God is a choice (albeit not necessarily a conscious one) to obtain positive results along with negative ones when one could just obtain the positive results without this belief.

One has to look at past experience and consider what can be gained. Nothing has been gained by such delusional beliefs that couldn't have been gained without it. It's held back humanity's development. Time to take out the trash, don'tcha think?

Miburo

Oh, but nuclear weapons are? XD

Books/Movies/TV/Music/Videogames/etc. can effect and influence people's beliefs as well. If people listen to music or watch television programs that depict women as objects it can influence them to also view women in that way. Same with anything else I mentioned. People adhere to what people behind TV and music dictate as cool every fucking day. It's almost exactly the same thing as religion in those regards.

Are my analogies perfect? Not really. But not for the reason you mentioned. ; )


I personally wouldn't suggest it to people, but it's hardly condemnable either so long as it's treated as a strictly personal, not to be used as a logical argument against anything or to be expected to be taken seriously be other people ever, type of belief.

I agree that it's not necessary to believe in that stuff, but if it helps people and they don't take it too far then seriously, why not? Thoughts and beliefs can't hurt anyone. Actions and words can, but I'm all for stupid shit done in the name of religion being looked down upon and condemned. So, seriously, with that in mind, what's wrong with religion then?
Not really. ; )

Don't get me wrong, things should change. People should be much, much more assertive when dealing with crybaby religious people who think their beliefs should be important and taken seriously. When some group of dumbasses start going on about how stem-cell research goes against God or something equally stupid, then someone should step up and say "No. Fuck you and your stupid shit. Shut the fuck up already!" I'm all for that.

But it does help people and provide them with comfort and support, regardless of if there are other ways to go about it. There are a lot of good, intelligent, caring religious people out there along with the crybaby nutjobs. Is it kind of stupid and unnecessary? Yeah, sure. Does that make it overall definitely 100% bad though? Nah.

Mal

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayer91 i personally do not believe in a "God". (1)If there is a God then there has to be more then one of them. (2)Why can you say that one religous group is right but hinduism is complitely wrong???????? (3)They all have the same basic princables that you need to be good and do the right thing, that is the only point in making a God figure. (4)For proof all you have to do is look at the Aztecs, they thought the spanish were gods and they were the complite opposite. Gods arent real. It is the most obserd thing to say, just think about what you are saying, (5)just reallly think about it. (6)So there was a being taht created everything out of nothing????? then what was he???? Then he had his son go down to earth and spread his word? (7)So isnt jesus just some random crazy guy that was spewing random crap out of his mouth????? (8)And how do we know about his miricles? couldnt it just be translation errors? After all there was a pretty big gap in the time that jesus was killed and the time the first testomite was created. Translation error arer huge, in spanish the meaning sky scrapper translates in english to something that scapes the sky. Couldnt some of the Miricles be figurative? (9)Not to mention all the scientific fakts we have found that complitely controdicts everything the bible says ps sorry for the bad spelling

(1)"If one exists, there must be more" is terrible logic.
(2)Not everyone can be right, so obviously someone has to be wrong. What people believe is obviously what they think is right, and you can't tell them they believe wrong just because you don't share their belief.
(3)Yes, they have the same basic principles of "be a good person", but their ideas of salvation and the afterlife are completely different, and in the end, eternity is what matters.
(4) I fail to see what this is proving.
(5) I have "really" thought about it.
(6) So you're saying the nothing created everything on its own?
(7) If he was crazy, He'd have said a lot more stuff that made no sense. If He was pulling a prank, He wouldn't have died for it.
(8) How do we know any written document from history is true? The writings of the Bible were translated just as well as any other historical writings, and the Bible is still available in its original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic for anyone to translate.
(9) I'm interested to see what kind of facts you're thinking of, here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hippiematt I think christianality is a load of crap, (1)in the bible they say that giant Bees that are the size of regualr men are going to swarm the earth, thus getting rid of 1/3 of the population. (2)They say that the tribulation is going to effect in our generation, (3)they hate catholics when the bible says they all praise the same god which is retared to me, the tribulation is a time when God doesn't protect the people from the devil and the devil get to do what ever he wants to the earth. I beleive in God but not some of the things in the bible, I think the bible was changed over and over again in time, (4)the bible was originally created to stear people in a good direction not scare the crap out of them and force them into believing a (5)zombie and a "natural being" that can do what ever he wants, (6)and if people don't like him they go into the fire. ?.?

(1) Verse, please.
(2) Again, verse please.
(3) That's preposterous. Catholics believe in the same God, but they believe in Him differently than Protestants, and are much more ritualistic about it. Also, we don't hate them.
(4) The Old Testament is a record, used to record history and teach people from things past and the mistakes of others. The New Testament is the story of Jesus, and how to achieve Salvation. The word "scare" has nothing to do with the Bible, when it refers to "fearing God" it's a way of saying "respecting God" that makes more sense in Hebrew than it does in English.
(5) Zombie Jesus makes me laugh, and God is not natural being. God created "nature" and is therefore outside of it.
(6) If that's how you want to word it. Try reading, there's plenty already written about the reasoning behind Christian Salvation and Hell. Though, I guess it's easier for you to say it makes no sense if you're completely ignorant of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redneckboy ...It is obvious Jesus wanted money in the hands of people in need and not the large temple of the day.

As far as I'm concerned, my money is tithed as long as it is doing good work for God. If that means supporting my church, than that's fantastic. However, if it means someone was able to eat tonight, then that's just as good.

As screwed up as many are, churches are important, and churches need tithe money to support their building mortgage, outreach events, youth ministry and the like. It's all about the church you choose. If you don't feel your money is being used wisely, you need to find a new church that you trust completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torture Maniac I am a christian, But I do not go to church ever since they told me to rip up my Pokemon cards because they we're the devil. True story.

That church sounds like it's full of ignorant old people. You should find a new one, a good church is important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo I don't really think this is the right section for this, (1)but I'll leave it here for now since the debate section seems to scare away a lot of the spammy douchebag kiddies. I honestly think it's kind of cool, I guess. The stories in the Bible really aren't all that bad. I definitely don't agree or believe in all of it, but the parts about helping people out and being nice to people are good. I know a lot of the stupid shit that goes down involving religion is just because stupid people fuck shit up (Or just take it too far/seriously). (2)I wouldn't blame the religion itself on shit like that. I started hating church when I was nine. My priest told me that dogs don't go to heaven after they die...after my dog died. He said it's for people only. I said that's bullshit to not let dogs in just because they're dogs, God wouldn't do that. And if he would, he's an asshole and I hate him anyway! Worded it differently since I was a little pussy kid though, of course. ; ) As for having a relationship with God and what-not, for me I just see that as being like having an imaginary friend. Cool, whatever, I don't see anything particularly wrong with that, especially if it helps you feel better/makes you want to strive to be a better person/brings you comfort/whatever. It's just not my cup of tea. (3)I feel better placing faith in myself, I don't need or want anything extra.

(1) Excellent reasoning.
(2) Good to see someone understand one of the most basic laws of the universe: People are stupid.
(3) I feel better placing my faith in myself as well, and I most often do. I'm not going to lie and say I'm 100% tight with God, because I'm not. As far as a relationship with God goes, I know what I should have, but I don't know why; if I don't know why I do something, I don't do it. My point is I can't fully explain it right now, I can only talk about what I know and not what I have.

Miles T

No, apparently I failed to make a suitable analogy.

Ah, so we are definitely talking about religion now. Okay. I still think your analogy fails. One watches television or listens to music for enjoyment or intellectual fulfilment. To watch television or listen to music doesn't require adopting a belief or ideology. Being part of a religion -- by definition -- does. The aforementioned leisure activities don't require an illogical leap of faith. Religion does.

I think it's important for me to state (as it probably hasn't been clear thus far) that I don't necessarily think truly benign religion is a bad thing. However, my point is exactly that religion has never been benign and that humanity as it is is incapable of practising benign religion. And again, why use some circuitous tool like religion to gain a positive? For example, say one's parent has just died and one could use religion as a crutch while mourning. However, surely it's better to make the best out of the situation without being irrational than to use some irrational prop? It seems like saying, 'Sure, I could be a better and happier person in every way by choosing this option, but I think I'll not choose this option'.

Okay, I'll try to identify your position definitively that I may counter it satisfiably. Correct me if I'm wrong (I suspect I am, and that we actually agree but that one or both of us has misinterpreted the other's intention).

You condone religion because it can theoretically be benign.

I've just realised that in response to my nuclear weapons line, you merely turned my logic back on me without refuting my point. It still stands, it seems: Assuming you are opposed to anybody being able to own nuclear weapons because there would inevitably be a misuse thereof (please confirm that's the case), how can you assert that everybody should be allowed to be part of a religion, when there would inevitably be a misuse thereof? You surely have a contradiction. At 'best', you have to say that everybody should be allowed to own nuclear weapons, and at 'worst', you have to concede the point.

By the by, I'd like to thank you for the good debate, which is so hard to come by. Truth be told, I decided to jump upon your post because I knew you'd put up a good fight. Your other insightful posts, along with some interesting threads are the reason I joined, in fact.

Miburo

Nah, it worked just fine for what you were saying originally.
This is why it wasn't perfect, good job. Remember though, no analogy is going to be an exact match in all aspects. They're used to show similarities in particular aspects.

Leap of faith or not though, all those things I mentioned are still capable of influencing stupid people to do stupid things or hold stupid beliefs. Yet none of those things should be considered bad on their own. Religion, in this regard, is no different. It's stupidity that is to blame for what stupid people do, not any outside influences. Stupidity is the primary, root cause.
Again, that's due to human stupidity. That shit ruins everything, not just religion. ; )
Again, why not? Is it the best way to go about shit? I personally don't think so, so I don't use it. Does it work for other people though? Yeah.

And I don't think you're in the position to say that people without religion would necessarily be happier. I'm sure a lot of people find the answers religion provides, as silly as they may seem, to be very comforting. The most logical answer isn't always going to be what makes people happy, after all.

@Mal-You're a pretty cool dude, yo. Seriously. : )

Edit: Here we go:

Correct, pretty much. Er...my beliefs aren't that simple, but more or less. XD
Again, correct. Kinda. ; )

You're right, people will and do 'misuse' (Not really the word I'd use, I just can't think of a better one at the moment) religion. I never would have said otherwise. However, almost anything can be made out to be bad using the same kind of thought process. I could 'misuse' a fork and kill dozens of people with it if I wanted to, would that make forks bad? Nah, it would just make me a douchebag.

Same thing with the stuff I mentioned. People could watch a movie that has a violent, remorseless killer in it and imitate the guy. People watch pro-wrestling and then use those techniques to cause serious injury to others. Does that mean movies and pro-wrestling bad? Of course not. It just means that people are idiots. Same exact thing with religion. That was my point.

As far as nuclear weapons are concerned, I really don't think anyone should have them. They're designed solely to kill large numbers of people, and they serve no other purpose besides that. Obviously even a single misuse would cause catastrophic results. Should we be denying other countries from having them when we have some of our own? I don't see how it's fair to, in all honesty. Really, though, they shouldn't exist. No matter what though, that's a whole different topic and hardly a fair analogy...and I think you know it. : )

If you'd use a different analogy, such as a violent movie or videogame, I'd be totally cool with everyone watching it. Will some people take that shit too far and hurt other people? Probably. But that's not because a movie caused them to though, it's just because they're stupid.

Heh, you're too kind. Also, you're not too bad yourself. So likewise, thanks. ^^

Miles T

To be honest, I don't. If you can show how religion and nuclear weapons aren't analogous in this regard, I'll have to come up with another argument, but you can't just dismiss my analogy because it's 'hardly fair'. The whole point of a reductio ad absurdum is to use an absurd situation to show a contradiction:

Premise: Anything that can theoretically be benign is permissible
Premise: Religion can theoretically be benign
Conclusion: Religion is permissible

Premise: Anything that can theoretically be benign is permissible
Premise: Nuclear armament can theoretically be benign
Conclusion: Nuclear armament is permissible

True, a single misuse will have catastrophic short-term results, but principles can't be subjected to arbitrary cut-off points. And, if you disagree with that, consider the scale of the effects of religion.

Nuclear weapons are designed only for killing, perhaps. But religion is designed to be absolute, unquestionable, divine truth and a panacea. Both are neither. Nuclear weapons constitute a deterrent and can be used to destroy asteroids on collision courses with Earth, for example. =) Religion is not unquestionable, divine truth; it is opinion and assumption of humanity. Besides, I can always be a bastard but technically correct by saying that some people could feasibly need nuclear weapons to be happier.

RNB

My point is that the church is not doing the work of God. The work of God should not be, "Tell everybody everything in the Bible in an interesting way so they bow down on your feet." The work of Jesus is Christian's sacrificing their lives so that others may live, just as Jesus himself did for Christians.

In other words, I want to know why no Christian has yet to go to Darfur and just die there so that way it would gain more media attention. The shirts aren't doing shit at all.

Let me explain better, but first I will need to ask questions.

1. What does your church teach every Sunday that you can't get on your own by reading the Bible?

2. What are the benefits of the church building?

2-2. (EDIT) How big is your church building?

3. What are the benefits of what your church is teaching?

4. How does your church get the message out?

5. What does the average adult at your church do for a living?

6. What does the average Joe at your church drive?

7. What does the average Joe at your church live in?

After you answer those, I can give you a better idea of what I am talking about.

Churches don't need buildings. A church is a group of people and we should not be living well. If it were my way Christians would become the poor class because that is who we should take the place of.

Secondly, the youth ministry should not be the coolest place ever. I am tired of all these youth groups with awesome buildings and shit, but when you talk to the youth, they are just as dumb as their parents. We are teaching them to live for possessions at a young age, obviously not what Jesus believed.

Lastly, no denomination of the many support my belief. The people who believe in what I believe probably have church in their house. Plus, I am not for listening to a dumb certified pastor all day. I want the common man's blind interpretation of the Bible. I am tired of the elite Christians telling me what the Bible says and what doesn't because if the holy spirit really does interpret the bible for us, then I should be able to get just as good an interpretation by myself.


Also to whoever said religion was holding us back, I don't understand how a religion about self-sacrifice is really holding us back. I believe it is moving us toward peace at a much quicker rate.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

UchihaTaijiya

I think there are some very good posts in this thread, and truly this is how a debate on religion should be... it's all opinion anyway... NO one's insights are more valid from my view... so approaching it in a more lax manner seems appropriate.

Oh wow... that was one of the first reasons I was angry with the christian God. *hugs Mibs* tis appropriate to hug joo. My other reason was, quite frankly, Eve.

I don't really have an opinion on Christianity. I have never read the whole bible, so any opinion I'd make is short-sighted, imho. Though the opinion still holds value... know what I mean?

I've read a lot of the NT though, and most of the book of Job (OT). I really like that one though it angers me as well. God made a deal with Satan to test Job, because all of his life Job was upright and blameless and glorified God. Satan said it is only because the Lord had blessed Job, and if he were to take away all his blessings, Job would curse the Lord. So... God's like, okay, let's test that theory... I haven't finished the book yet, so I don't know how it ends... but that just ticked me off. However, Job's 3 friends are awesome. XD

Anyone out there who has read it, reflected on it, and willing to share their insight before I finish reading it?

Its really a shame when I heard of a church who wouldn't share their food/supplies with non-members after hurricane Katrina. They would for gas, though, so they'd make deals.... if you had something they needed, they were all up for helping out... <.< This is not in accordance with what should be done, if they truly want to glorify God and live in a manner that reflects Jesus's sacrifice. I can tell that much, and I've avoided religion for the majority of my life.

It says a few times in the NT that believers should separate themselves from the world, as the world is under the influence of evil and momentary pleasure.

I don't trust the world anyhow, so that clicks with me.

Eh. I really don't have much insight that hasn't been mentioned already. I'm in no way qualified for this sort of discussion. Haha. Maybe after I've read the whole bible, I'll come back.

That may be in a few years though. XD

__________________

GAma_Oyabun

i like all ur concerns redneckboy. the church has a lot of issues to work on. for me christians are the worst people you'll ever meet

__________________


FC's
owner of the Village Brawl fc ^^-----LIKE RPGS??? join Village BRAWL FC>..the original rpg fc

member of the Fruits Basket Fc

Miburo

You really don't see that there's a big difference between weapons of mass destruction and a bunch of fairytales? Okay, fine, I know what you're doing so I'll roll with this anyway. : )

So let's assume they're exactly the same, and that your premises and conclusions are completely correct. That would mean that movies/books/television/music and pretty much anything else that can influence stupid people to do stupid things are dangerous and should be done away with. Right? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

I'm not saying just because it can be harmless that it's all good. I'm also saying that there's a lot of things that can influence stupid people to do stupid things besides religion; and that religion isn't the root cause of all that, stupidity is.

In your analogy religion is the nuclear bomb. If someone launches a nuke, are you seriously going to put blame on the nuke itself though? Is it the nuke's fault that it got launched? Should the nuke itself be held responsible? Of course not. It's the dumbass that launched it that's the problem.

Even a nuclear bomb is fairly harmless without assholes around to use it. You think if we got rid of nuclear bombs that people would suddenly stop needlessly killing other people? You think the world would suddenly be rid of douchebags who want to cause a ton of harm? Again, of course not. Stupid people would still exist without religion. It wouldn't solve much of anything. All that would change is that they'd have to find a different excuse to be douchebags about shit, and trust me, they would. Your beef is ultimately with stupid people, same as mine. Don't get caught up in whatever excuse they're using to justify their stupidity.

Word. Dogs not going to heaven is pretty mean shit. That's hardcore injustice right there, I'm fighting teh powar hard if that turns out to be true! <3

And I've read that story! It's been a while so I'm really fuzzy with the details, but I'm fairly sure God owns the shit out of Job and his family to win that bet with Satan. Which seems like a not too nice of a thing to do, if you ask me. = /

UchihaTaijiya

Well I was reading it recently (like a week ago), and God actually gives Satan control over all of Job's possessions and family, first saying that Satan is unallowed to harm the man himself. I think later though, he allows Satan domain over Job's body... so all the 'bad' things that happen to Job are Satan's doing, but with God's permission...

Still not very nice, or holy, for that matter. <.<

__________________