RNB

Job wasn't perfect though. He didn't have perfect love, which means that there was room for improvement. Either way, I don't find it that excessive because I don't take the book of Job as a literal story like you. I find it to be more symbolic.

Yes, he did give permission for Satan to do pretty much whatever he wanted with Job, but what was the outcome? Job ended up being better than who he was at the start.

Also, this is a personal interpretation of mine, but I believe God already made destiny so he would have known the outcome of Satan's bet.

See, but that would be you saying that you knowledge is better than a supposed, perfect god. While it isn't proven, we must assume that this God is perfect.


I was talking about you not understanding the value of faith in a god of some sort.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miles T

Actually, considering how you seemed to use the weasel words of "respect" and "interpretation", I'm not going to bother trying to refute your point about fundamentalism commanding respect.

Well actually, you seemed to attempt to elucidate an appealing view in order to force readers into adopting it due to their being unable to resist its appeal. Even assuming this is not the case, your question (I assume that's what it was) is irrelevant. Your 'point' just seems to be a variation of the weak 'It's just my opinion' defence oft-used to excuse oneself from actually having to...ya know...back up one's arguments. The rest of this quoted section seems to just be non-sequitur fluff.

How can you reasonably expect us to accept your opinions when we can't even know what they are?!

First, I'd like to note your hypocrisy. You say there is no truth then go on to you are a skeptic and espouse your Christian dogma, contradicting your own variation of 'skepticism'. There's another point: you say you're a skeptic 'the way the Greeks invented it' (probably siding with an old ideology to try and gain your position some credit, as you apparently can't actually [be bothered to] justify it), which is missing what the 'Greek skepticism' you attempt to refer to was about: not taking anything as a universal truth.

However, your hypocrisy doesn't refute your points, so...here I go!

You gave me tasks to do which you thought were impossible, which wasn't very nice. =) Hopefully you'll forgive me for neglecting to follow these instructions, as I'll agree that your requirement for 'proof' is impossible to fulfil.

Both your questions can be answered by allowing for existence to be defined in terms of cognition (assuming we can define some things necessary for such definitions), but I see your point (or do I?) that nothing can be proven, and thus that all the knowledge we think we hold is due to assumptions. However, assuming we are wrong, what difference does it make? If the possibilities are believing in reality and not, we obviously pick the former because we only gain and are not adversely affected. In fact, if we choose the latter, we lose our blissful ignorance. If an illusion of something behaves and thus seems exactly like the 'real thing', they are identical and equal and thus indistinguishable. If this reality is just an illusion, then...then what? You showed that we assume certain fundamental views, but didn't actually show why that's a 'bad' thing.

At the end of the day, the kind of argument you presented is possibly the greatest bastardisation of philosophy: attacking existence, philosophy and logic...with philosophy and logic from your existence (I assume =) ).

I've had another thought that can be applied to quite a few of your posts and which is a (somewhat) separate one, so I'll make another post.

How can you prattle on about faith and your beliefs and your 'interpretations' and all the justifications you use for these things (which can be equated with arguments), apparently refuse to justify them (which would surely be necessary when asserting them, as they're not 'fundamental' truths, common values or anything near either) and still think you're actually arguing validly? So far, you pretty much just seem to be stating that it's 'your interpretation' or 'your belief' as if that makes your positions self-evident.

Miburo

So what he perfect afterwards? If not, I suppose God should have fucked him up more, right?

And I'm not taking the story literally either. I'm saying that surely there must have been a better way to show that materialism is silly without making God look like an asshole in the process. Obviously, I don't think anything in this story really happened; I'm saying that the story itself is stupid.
Show that he was "better." Because rereading it, he seemed like a pretty damn good guy before. Look at it this way: Let's say I really appreciated the fact that I had healthy eye-sight. Then I lose sight in an eye. Do I appreciate healthy eye-sight MORE now that I only can see out of one eye? Nah, because I never took it for granted in the first place.

Same with Job. It really didn't seem like he was taking anything for granted before God decided to fuck with his life so that he could have a bet with Satan. So I'm not really sure how he became better because of it.

And you're still ignoring the part where God did it because of a bet, not because he decided to teach anyone any lessons.
If that's the case, then that's even worse. "You loved me to begin with, and I already knew you'd love me no matter what happened, but I let Satan fuck with your life anyway, lol!"

"God works in mysterious ways..." Cop-out. = /

Considering I was defending faith because I'm fully aware it helps people live their lives for the last two pages or so, that seems like quite the silly thing to say on your part.

Just because I personally don't need that shit doesn't mean I don't understand it.

RNB

Ok, thank you for assuming I used them as weasel words. They are not, though. That is according to the philosophy I follow.



This isn't supposed to be an argument, which is why I am trying not to use logic. I quote myself...

Again, why do you respect any opinion? Is it because you find it of a certain amount of merit or is it because you except the fact that people think differently than you and you are not a superbeing?

1. It is not contradictory. The original Skepticism did not stress disbelief in everything. What it stressed was the fact that we can't prove anything so to regard anything as 100% proof is bogus.

2. I said "the way the Greeks invented it" because Skepticism has, over time, become a synonym of a questioner. I am not just a mere, questioner, hence why I mentioned the original. Way to go and totally miss the point though .


So, how can you have logic without proof?

So now that we agree that we can't prove anything without assuming, why would I want to except a reasoning where it tells me different? See, I do use logic sometimes, such as in a debate, (which is what you use in a real debate.) At the end of the day, I don't except anything as a universal truth though. Is there a problem with defying human nature and coming to the conclusion that "yes" and "no" mean nothing and there could possibly be answers such as "half-yes" and "half-no." No, there isn't. So, stop telling me that religion is 100% improbable because you used a, possibly faulty method, of proving things, the logical method. This is identical to me believing in a faulty philosophy, religion.


Opinion.

You assume everyone thinks he is an asshole. Job, did not think he was an asshole. I do not think he was an asshole.

Again, he improved through the circumstances.

It isn't a cop-out. It is my interpretation of the Bible. If God is an all-supreme
perfect being, what is the point of questioning him? Even better, how could a flawed human think better?

You don't understand it to the extent we do. Proof? You don't have faith in a god, so do you really value it as much as us?

EDITVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Some of these interpretations are widely accepted, such as God being perfect, which is why I don't go out of my way to state them 100 times. Predestination is not widely accepted. Most people, such as baptists, believe in free will.

Also, please edit your post next time instead of DPing. It gets annoying.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miburo

When you call someone an asshole, do you think everyone agrees with you? Probably not. I'm saying that I think what he did there was pretty hardcore asshole-ish, and providing proof to back up my claim. If someone did the same exact thing to someone else, most people would say that's pretty fucked up. It's not like I'm looking at this in some abstract way or anything.

Show where he was bad to begin with. That's the point. Why punish him if he wasn't doing something wrong to begin with. Like my kid cursing analogy, I'm sure if I punished a kid to show him that he shouldn't curse (even though he never cursed to begin with) he'd probably realize that he seriously, definitely shouldn't curse. So yeah, I made my point, but I'm still an asshole for punishing someone when he never did anything wrong to begin with. Get what I'm saying yet?
It's still a cop-out. What's the point of you debating anything about this shit at all if you're just going to say "Well the Bible says God is perfect, so no matter what everything he does is auto-right!?"
Understanding something =/= Valuing something. Shitty logic is shitty.

RNB

The point is, it doesn't matter if you think that, the book is there regardless of the opinions, just like the Bible.


If he is born of Adam and Eve, he is born into sin. Therefore, he was somewhat "bad" to begin with, but he was considered to be one of the more righteous people.


The debate is about whether God is perfect, that is why I am using it. If he is perfect then why would he be wrong. If he was wrong then he cannot be perfect. This wasn't even supposed to turn out into a debate, which is why I am trying not to get to technical and prove my assumptions. The point is that if God is perfect, then he does know more then you.

You won't understand how it feels to value something until you actual value it, which was my point.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miburo

I never said it wasn't there...
So he's being punished for something beyond his control? Yeah, that's a lot less horrible... = /
I'm looking at his actions portrayed in the bible and saying that shit is pretty fucking mean. So if you disagree with what I'm saying then show how punishing people who didn't do anything wrong to begin with isn't mean. Easy shit, no?

I think so. So how about you do that instead of trying avoid doing so by saying "LOL well God is perfect so it's cool. How do I know it's perfect? Cuz the bible says so, duh!" I'm sure I don't have to tell you that isn't a very convincing argument, right?

If you go to the doctor and he tells you that you're sick but you'll be fine if you take some pills, do you go "LOL HOW DO YOU KNOW? HAVE YOU EVER HAD THIS ILLNESS?" Because that's what you're doing here.

Besides, I used to believe in that shit when I was younger and my entire family minus a couple are hardcore believers. So, seriously, shut the fuck up, the only person who doesn't understand shit around here is you. I don't need to believe in your imaginary friends to understand shit about it.

RNB

The point is that not everyone thinks it is stupid. I was telling you why I don't think it is stupid.

He gained in the end so it isn't necessarily punishment.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. The point is that if you believe God is perfect, then there is no point in questioning him. You don't have to believe he is perfect though. I believe he is perfect, so therefore I do not question matters which I do not understand.

I doubt you believed what I believe. I doubt you believe in a Christianity where following your idea of Jesus/God is what is right, and not so much doing what your church says is right. I doubt you believe that church shouldn't be a time of listening to a guy tell you his interpretation for an hour or two. I doubt you believed that you should live a life of servant hood so that others benefit and you don't. I mean, I am not your average, idiot, bible-toting, Christian. If anything, I am a Christian who wants to be a slave when he is older and I want to die for someone so that they may live instead of myself. Call me a lunatic, but that is where I think I can find meaning in a world ruled by systems that no man can escape by himself. I mean, look around. Tons of people are illiterate, starving, committing suicide, being bombed, being raped, etc, and no one can stop it. Every time we allow the government to do shit it gets screwed up. Nothing is able to stop it, and I am sick of assholes tell me to pursue my own fucking pleasures in order to run away. That is what most of you atheists do anyways. The ones that are humanitarians do give, but none have yet to give everything, and that is what I hope to do after I finish my education. Unlike some, I hurt for other people much more than myself. I don't know why, but I just do.

So I plan on throwing myself out into an ocean full of sharks and trying to rescue the stray man. I will plan on doing that while trusting my "imaginary friend."

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miburo

Last I checked, I didn't give a shit about what you thought. I didn't originally reply to your post telling you that you didn't understand shit. You, however, did that to me. If you disagree with my interpretation or opinion of the story, then present an argument against it.


Yes, it is. That's retarded. If I beat a kid in hopes of teaching him not to curse, and he learns not to curse from it...that doesn't make me beating him any less of a punishment.

Great, good for you. Why are you debating it then, since by your own admittance it is a matter that you do not understand, and that I'm not bound by your "Don't question it" belief?


You don't know what the fuck I believed, so it doesn't matter what you think. Obviously I wasn't your average bible-toting Christian either, and obviously I saw some pretty major flaws in the church as well. So, seriously, any assumption you make about my beliefs are completely baseless, and they don't mean shit anyway.
Good for you. I'd rather not be a tool, but whatever floats your boat. Also, you can not be religious and still not lead a self-serving life.
What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Just felt like sharing, I suppose, eh?

Protip: Being a religious person doesn't mean you're any more morally upstanding than an Atheist. Morality has nothing at all to do with religion in that regard. So your high and mighty rant was epically retarded. ^^b
Good for you. I'll continue to lead a morally acceptable life without the need of any imaginary friends. Yay!

RNB

I don't.

I was trying to tell you why I believe my point is acceptable and not downright outrageous.


Well, then I am sorry for underestimating you.


Yes, you might, but I am going to trust in my God to not leave me out in the middle of nowhere starving when I give away everything.

I shared it because I am tired of the other Christians saying you have to be moral to be a Christians, and you were obviously heavily influenced by them. It is the only one that gets out to the public, and it stresses me out when the other views are disregarded because they aren't popular.

My point was the exact opposite. It was the fact that you don't have to live by morals to necessarily be Christ-like. I believe it has more to do with self-sacrifice for others, including your enemies.

Okay. While you focus on living a moral life I will focus on making others' lives more enjoyable with the help of my imaginary friend.

__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miburo

I understand that. I know it teaches lessons. I know what you're saying about original sin. All I'm saying is that it is still a mean thing to do, and I've justified that statement. If you read back what you wrote in response to my statements, you've accused me of not getting something. Obviously, that's not the case. Knowing that, surely you can understand why I've responded the way I did, correct?


That's not what it sounded like, especially with that atheist remark added in there. However, if this is what you meant, then okay. Cool.

A moral life, to me, includes that as well. Minus the imaginary friend thing, obviously. ; )

dirk667

ok, job WASNT sinless...he was very faithful to God. so satan thought he could get job to denounce God by harming him. due to job's faithfulness, he was rewarded tenfold what he had before. anyways, i believe this was "opinion's on christianity", and here are mine: 1, there is a God. 2, he rules the universe. 3, i dont want to follow the rules he set down, and hes not going to stop me. 4, i was saved and am not going to hell for not following his directions. 5, if you dont believe me, i guess we'll c when we die, wont we. 6, i have no idea what i was going to write, but god's real, christianity must be the true religion cause IT IS THE ONLY RELIGION PURSICUTED IN THE WORLD. Buddah, not taken out of school. Muhhamed, not denounced as a fake. Athiest, not debated and hated for their beliefs. so why must THIS be the wrong religion. all the others want you to die for God. but christianity God died for you. debate that little fact.

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LonelyNinja

I call major bullshit on that. Every religion is persecuted by another party, and Christianity is not innocent from that, either. God says that Christians should not be "yoked with non-believers," so right there God is saying, "Christianity is good. Everything else is bad." Dude, Christianity isn't out of schools. Ever heard of "private Christian/Catholic schools?" Yeah, I have never even heard of a "private Islam school" or "private Hindu school." I'm sure there are some in this country, but they aren't as numerous as Christian/Catholic schools. Okay, yeah, Mohamed isn't denounced as a fact because there is factual evidence that he existed, just like there's evidence for Jesus and Buddha. So, Christianity hasn't been taken out of schools. Seriously, what the Hell gave you that idea? So, every religion, every group of people is discriminated against. Don't claim that it's all on Christianity. According to everyone else every other religion is wrong. Christians pulls that same card.

Dude, every religion that I can think of is "Live a good life, follow the rules." No religion says, "GO KILL YOURSELF FOR GOD LOLOL!" Sure, Islam is extreme in that it sanctions the killing of infidels if they don't convert, but people have been killed in the name of Christianity. Also, God didn't die for the sins of his people. Jesus did.

dirk667

no its, not taken out. but the congress is trying. besides, private schools are completely another topic. catholics are not christians. pagan religion started by romans. idolitry. blah blah. Jesus IS God. 1 part of 3. jesus, god, holy spirit. all one entity. well yeah, being yoked with non-believers is bad. ever read about solomon and his many wives from many places? he let them bring their religion, and soon he was sacrificing people. and im sorry i worded my responce here wrong before. Persicuted worldwide. better?

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LonelyNinja

There's something called "separation of church and state." Is that what you're trying to think of? Because in a country like America, where everyone is free to their beliefs and equal, the government can't be biased. Unfortunately, America hasn't reached that point yet. Stem cell research isn't being federally funded because it conflicts with Christian morals. But no matter what you can't deny the benefits of stem cell research, so why are we letting people die of possibly curable diseases just because people think that fetuses have living souls? Dude, Catholics are Christians because they worship God and Jesus. They're just like the Mormons, though, they have different minor beliefs.

Jesus is the Son of God. He's known as God on Earth because of what he did. There's a difference between "Hey, I created the universe and all that" and "Hey, I can turn water into wine, cure blind people, and I hang with lepers." Then again, sure, it could all be up to interpretation. That doesn't mean that other religions are wrong. It just means that Solomon didn't have his own shit together. His faith wasn't strong enough. You know what's another fact? Christianity is the most practiced religion worldwide. It holds the Guinness World Record for "most prevalent religion." So, no, it can't be the most persecuted.