Trey

Thing is, some people don't like the notion of blindly following something.

Hiraku

that is correct i believe in god but i dont follow blindly what the church says. Becuase the church is runned by man and man if fouliable.

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Hiraku

The Look of Innocence

Miburo

The concept of God was created by man too. >.>

J.A.M.D.

Whats the point, religion is just popularity. Most people follow a sertain religion because some one they know followed a certain religion. Your not going to be Jewish when your parents are christian. Think about it for a sec, you follow what others do. But then again some people stay from that path, get there own religion or just don't beleave in It. Besides, where did religion come from. It started because some one said some thing. If I said that I was the lords son and that he sent me here to spread the word of some religion. Does that mean It's true, you cann't believe every thing you hear.

Naruto2008

Agreed, if someone claimed to be the son of God in today's society they would be tossed in a looney bin and most likely labeled mentally ill. Basically people just created Religion in order to answer the questions that everybody has and no one truely has an answer to. Also it gives people a reason for living, Heaven or some sort of afterlife. And like JAMD said, you only believe what you do because a lot of other people do. And also, if there is a God, which deffinatly could be possible, I doubt he cares if you go to church, tell some priest your sins, or whatever. He just wants people to live life as good people. Regardless of wether or not you believe in God, or Jesus, or Heaven, or Hell, I think we should all just live our lives as good people because that is our duty as humans.

Personally I have no beliefs. I do not believe there is a God, on the other hand I do not believe there isn't. I do however think that there is a God. I have accepted the fact that I do not know nor may I ever know the truth. And because of this i will not believe something just because a bunch of other people do or it was written in an old book, but I will accept these things as possibilities.

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CamzyD

the thing that upsets me about christianity and maybe all religion

is the hypocrisy

RNB

I guess you should also be upset with any philosophy.

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"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Honda2009

Well, most people say that they think there is a god, and believe there isn't. They are just simply saying that they are unsure about the existence of God.

Veggiegirl101

I have several rebutals to the invalid arguments that you have made about following God, Jesus Christ, Christianiy, and the Bible.

Persecution-In the Bible people who believe in Jesus Christ and followed Him were persecuted, in the Bible Jesus says,"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:11-12)

Delusion- Their is nothing delusional about the Word of God or about believing in God or Jesus. Just because you cannot physically see them does not mean that they do not exist. For example can you or anyone else for that matter physically see, love, hope, joy or happiness? We can not see these things physically but we can see the effects caused by them. From my personal experience with Jesus Christ all I can say about Him is that He is truly real, so very real. When I say real I mean it in three ways: I'm saying that He exist and I am also saying that He is the truth. When Jesus speaks in the Bible it hits at my heart and I know know that it is the truth. On top of this I see Jesus as the real deal, as in He is real love. When He speaks I hear love and by His actions I see love. This is one of the many scriptures that I hear love when he speaks:

7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:7-18).

I also see love in the previous scripture because Jesus Christ actually did what he said, He died for His sheep on the cross-He died for our sins and saved us all.

He is the truth and He is very real, if that makes me delusional for believing so, then that's fine with me! I'd rather be crazy for God and Jesus any day than be sane without Him. Also you made a claim about the "hindrance of human progression", which is also not true. In the previous scripture Jesus says,"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."(John 10:10) This is the truth, in my own life I was broken and messed up, I was really at the brink of flirting with loosing it completly but Jesus kept me, it was because of Him that I have life today and am typing this message to you right now. I could of been anywhere else but I'm here safe and sound, I've been delivered from something awful and I'm grateful for being able to have new life in Christ Jesus. So the truth about God and Jesus is that they give life, they don't hinder it and They love us so much!

I also find God and Jesus to be very cool, I see nothing wrong in that either. Even though I can't physically see God I know that He is here with me by the way that He continously shows up in my life and a person also gets to a point that even though they can't actually understand everything about God or get exactly what it is that He is doing that they will still trust in Him...having faith in Him through the good, bad, and inbetweens, just the same as he's loved us through the good, bad, and inbetweens times, He's always good and I just wanted to share that with you.

Here's something for everyone to think about :
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."(John 3:16-17)

Miburo

There's a pretty huge difference between a conscious being that is all powerful and has the ability to do anything, and an emotion. They're really not comparable, at all.

But if you're saying God isn't actually a real entity at all, and is instead just a feeling or idea that people get, then I'm cool with that.

I'm going to use the same exact argument to support the fact that Captain America is a real super hero:

From my personal experience with Captain America all I can say about Him is that He is truly real, so very real. When I say real I mean it in three ways: I'm saying that He exist and I am also saying that He is the truth. When Captain America speaks in the comic book it hits at my heart and I know know that it is the truth. On top of this I see Captain America as the real deal, as in He is real love. When He speaks I hear love and by His actions I see love. This is one of the many comic book quotes that I hear love when he speaks:...

I can use the same argument to support the existence of pretty much any fictional character ever created, really. Hopefully this shows you how non-convincing your argument is...= /

Miles T

But no refutations? I draw a distinction between rebuttals, which may address individual arguments in a proposition (such as dismissing bad analogies) and refutations, which attempt to make the actual proposition untenable.



You’re right. Indeed, Christians are persecuted even to this very day. However, that doesn’t refute my conclusion that Christianity teaches to persecute. Millions—very possibly even billions—have been persecuted in the name of Christianity. If Christianity had its own way, over half of humanity would be relegated to live in subordination.

One would hope so. I’m not familiar enough with the Bible to be able to recall any delusion from God. There’s certainly bad ‘teachings’ from God, though.

Given the evidence in favour of Christianity’s veracity, I beg to differ. However, if you can show to me with reasonable certainty that a ‘Christian God’ (whatever that is) exists, then I’ll acknowledge that there is no delusion in thinking it exists. Note that I also draw a distinction between ‘believing’ something to be true and ‘thinking’ it’s true. I use the former to refer to irrational, faith-based assertions and the latter to refer to sufficiently-reasonable assertions. Thus, in my usage, it is delusional to believe in anything.

We know exist because not only are they defined in terms of psychological phenomena that at least billions of creatures have experienced and experience, but also because of recent developments in neuroscience.

So by your usage, it seems that Jesus would have to exist and be correct (which seem to be two requirements, as opposed to three) to be ‘real’. Thus, for your assertion of his reality (is that correct usage?) to be reasonable, you must be reasonably certain that Jesus exists. As it is, the best evidence seems to suggest that, at the most, Jesus was a real person, but not necessarily one as described in the Bible. As you are presumably referring to the Biblical Jesus (with miracles and whatnot), you now need to put forth that revolutionary evidence that demonstrates Biblical Jesus’ existence before I’ll accept that Jesus is real.

This doesn’t sit well with me because not only is it factually incorrect (the sheep did listen to them, and many of ‘them’ were honest people seeking to do good), but perhaps more importantly, it also suggests that only God is fit to shepherd humanity. Christianity belittles humanity by comparing humans to sheep in order to suggest that they need direction by some ‘superior being’ and that they are foolish, oblivious, unknowing and more besides. Perhaps worst of all, Christianity states that humanity is unfit to choose its own direction. As someone who holds grand dreams for humanity’s future, and who constantly strives to Illuminate, Christianity relegates my highest and greatest dreams—and indeed my very being—to futility.

We’re invited to throw aside the insatiable desire to know and understand and self-determination to submit to ‘God’ because an inconsistent, often unsubstantiated and highly suspect book tell us to. We’re invited to forgo these things—things fundamental to the human condition—in exchange for fake promises and unthinking subservience.
God and Jesus apparently love us so much yet allow pain and suffering and wrongdoings to continue for millennia amongst the former’s highest creations. God loves us so much that ‘he’ will send us to Hell for embracing the human condition. God is so caring and fair that ‘he’ will send us to Hell for an infinite period for a finite misdemeanour.

That is to say, the teeming millions and billions of Christians will harass, pressure coerce and outright force Christianity upon the whole of worthless humanity.

‘I lay down my life so you can continue to be worthless sheep! It’s such a chore for an omnipotent being like myself!’

In my book, delusion is very much not ‘fine’. When it is permissible, unbidden intellectual mediocrity ensues. Claiming something as truth while knowing there is not reasonable evidence is no better than destructive lying. If everyone were to simply live in the utmost delusion…well, I’m sure you can see why that would be absurd. Permitting delusion permits the decay of human progress.

This is all fluff until you substantiate it. The Bible is an inconsistent, contrafactual, dubious book. Its assertions, on their own, don’t count as substantiation. It’s a poor source of evidence for the existence of ‘the Christian God’. Merely referring to the Bible as ‘proof’ amounts to:

Premise: The Bible states that God exists.
Conclusion: Therefore God exists.

Which is not sound; it is not a valid logical argument.

As it is, the chance of a God even remotely similar to the God you claim exists is infinitesimal. But despite the presumable non-existence of the God you propose, the principles that you claim ‘your’ God issued are still followed to, amongst other things, persecute and hinder human progress (such as in the scientific field).

Miles T

The more that’s all said, the truer it becomes, apparently.

Your post was probably very thoughtful compared to most here. For that, I commend you. However, I urge you to reconsider your position. Religion may have been a helpful crutch for humanity in millennia past and for you yourself in your life. However, religion no longer servers any purpose that rational methods don’t. Your Christianity is merely the result of your upbringing, presumably. Don’t ascribe some mystical exception to it.

~

To Miburo, on the subject of isolated religion:

In terms of whether or not it is permissible, isolated religion is analogous to privately believing that 2+2=5. So long as such beliefs are not used to make decisions that subtract from how another valuable being would otherwise reasonably be, they are innocuous, and thus seemingly acceptable. However, as with any irrational, potentially dangerous concept, religion should not be allowed to gain sway such that it can interfere with human progress.

I suspect you’ll agree with that.

ThyMaiden

Thats basicly what Friedrich Nietzsche means with the phrase "God is Dead" so I'm glad that u posted that.

Miles T

I have very little knowledge of Nietzsche, and it's very possible that I'm speaking codswallop, but you seem to be actually overlooking another part of what he intended with that (one which I didn't mention in that section you quoted): humanity is not only capable of supplanting religion now, but is shifting towards doing so. Humanity is actually progressing beyond religion, not just able to do so. A subtle distinction, perhaps. As Nietzsche was someone who (if I recall correctly) saw the plague religion was, I think it's fair to extrapolate that 'Gott ist tot' was also Nietzsche referring to the aforementioned progression. Although, it's also very possible that you did already know this, but just neglected to mention it.

I suppose that this post might seem critical and provocative, but please know that it was not intended as such.

Veggiegirl101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo There's a pretty huge difference between a conscious being that is all powerful and has the ability to do anything, and an emotion. They're really not comparable, at all. But if you're saying God isn't actually a real entity at all, and is instead just a feeling or idea that people get, then I'm cool with that.

When you say that there is a "huge difference between a conscious being that is all powerful and has the ability to do anything and an emotion..."

I was not saying that God and Jesus are simply an emotion or an idea, they are much much more than that. I will never say that God is just an idea/emotion or Jesus is just an idea/emotion or that the Holy Spirit is just an idea/emotion becuase that is not true. So if when I said," On top of this I see Jesus as the real deal, as in He is real love. When He speaks I hear love and by His actions I see love...", their was a misunderstanding their about what I was trying to say. This is what I meant by saying that when I read the Bible and when Jesus speaks I hear love and by his actions I see love and in result I see Jesus Christ as the real deal. I meant that Jesus Christ lives love and He teaches those who are willing to look and see what real love is all about. By watching Him a person can learn what real love looks like and what it is all about. His life is blameless, He did nothing wrong, not one thing, yet he was rejected by some of the Jews, in the Bible Jesus says,
"42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"(Matthew 21:42) He was rejected by some of the people that He came down to save, actually some of the leading Jews, Pharices, Saudeces, Teachers of the Law, and some of the people were the ones who wanted him killed. "31 Again some of the people picked up stones to kill Jesus. 32 But he said to them, "I have done many good works from the Father. Which of these good works are you killing me for?" (John 10:31-32)

This is what gets to me, while we were still sinner's, out there doing all kinds of things that arent what he would have us to do, before we even knew who Jesus was He knew us, and he loved us enough even though we were sinners to die in our place, to take our place on the cross, and by doing this we were all saved from death if we just accept Him. It's been paid for already, Jesus Christ died for all of humanity and according to the Bible, "9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

That's the best news I ever heard in my life, I don't know about you but I sure am happy that I'll be living forever thanks to what Jesus has done.

So what I was saying earlier about when I hear Jesus speak I hear love, and by his actions I see love, I'm saying that when I hear love, I'm hearing Jesus's love for us by telling us the truth. Someone that loves you tell's you the truth especially if it's to save you from something bad. Christ teaches people how to live the right way and to follow Him because He is The Way to Life and to the Father/God. If He didn't care why would He say it in the first place? In the book of Revelation Jesus says,
"19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."(Revelation 3:19-20)

When I said by his actions I see love I mean exactly what I'm saying. By what Jesus did and what he still does I see His love for us in it. To me one of the greatest example's that I see is when Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. That is action that shows real love.

"36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.""(John 18: 36-37)
An innocent man who is more than just a mere man lived a humble life even though he is Great and He is really a king he took the place and suffered the punishment that every one else should of had to of gone through but ,"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

There are more reasons/actions that show God and Jesus's love for us other than this, although I see this as the greatest of all.

God is all powerful, all knowing, good, grace, merciful, righteous, patient, and loving. Their is more to Him than I know right now but as I get closer to Jesus I'll learn more about who God is as well. I do know that our logical minds can not fully comprehend Him or all of His ways because His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. Even though he is Great and wonderful, all powerful, all knowing...etc He still loves us, it is possible for God to be all powerful and loving at the same time. God is a loving Father to his children after all.