narutojm

same here but i go to church and my mom said that naruto is demonic because of the nine tailed fox

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Star_Gazer

people who say that are just ignorant...some of my friends mom's are that way too. i have decided its because i live in basically the center of the bible belt....lmao...

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Mal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaine Well since I am an atheist for a long time I don't really have a high opinion on christianity.To be precise my opinion on the church doesn't get any lower.I don't find any meaning on why should a church exist.

The church exists for support. A good church is like a large family you can count on with whatever problems you have. Unfortunately, most churches are just "walk in, worship, listen, leave".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaine Kissing pictures of jesus and praying on altars makes you an idololatris ad church keeps saying that you honour the person that is on the picture and not the material.But that makes no difference since we see people going and kissing parts of the holy cross and travelling miles to Jerusalem to have god help them.And what church does?They sell parts of the holy wood and bleed those people dry.I also dissagre with many aspects on christianity.

The church is corrupt, specifically the organized churches such as the Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox. What you mention there are exactly the reason for which Martin Luther began the Reformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaine The whole meaning that christianity preaches is to love and care.But that is impossible you can't care for a child rapist, you can't care for someone that killed your beloved ones.

It's entirely possible. I personally know a man who was beaten, molested and set on fire by an older kid when he was in highschool. This was almost 20 years ago, and about 5 years ago he was forgiven. He's obviously in prison and still paying for his crimes, but there's literally no hard feelings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaine My general opinion is this:I don't need religion to be nice to other and care.I can do it that by myself.I don't care at all if Jesus existed or he was a god.If he did existed he was a man with great ideals someone with a great mind.A humanist.But his teachings got corrupted in the process by others.He never told anything about hatred but in apocalypse John dooms everyone that didn't believed him.Then it was the time for the church to manipulate his words.Those that once moked hm started to preach his word as they wanted to.

No, you don't need religion to be a good person, and only fools think you do. In fact, no one needs religion. Religion is completely useless and only inhibits you. Christianity, as it's meant to be, is a personal relationship with God through prayer.
Jesus did exist. If anyone denies that there was a man named Jesus who did the things described in the Bible, they're completely ignorant. Many secular historians of the time (including at least one Jewish one) also have records of Him. No, Jesus never spoke about hatred in the way you probably meant*, but He did say "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 4:16)

*If I am deceiphering your meaning correctly, then hatred is not the word for which you are looking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyukon sosei Warning: Future apology to anyone I might offend, when throwing the word "we" around & subject jumping... there was too much too talk about I tried to be brief & and so on... Your views on Christianity? That is way too broad. When I think of Christianity, I think of WAR. I am too naive and ignorant to know any better. I do believe in "a" GOD. I grew up as a Roman Catholic, I was never forced into going to Church with friends and family. When I did go, it was during the holidays. I never really took the time to open up the Bible and read it for myself. Majority of the time absorbing the information, has been watching the tube, the History Channel, National Geographic, Science Channel - all that stuff. And these past years it has been a lot. 9/11, Di Vinci Code movie, Mel Gibson's movie, the INTERNET. You may think I am retarded when I said "war". I live in the United States, Texas, a matter a fact, 3/4 miles away from largest army post in the US. I am a military brat. My father was in Operation Desert Storm. I have friends and family deployed in Iraq as we speak. I have my own opinions of what's going on there, why we are there, etc. Watching many shows and movies and reading countless articles, I was just dumbfounded pretty much... on LIFE, existence? Here are the questions that came to mind during this whole misunderstanding or understanding... Why can we all just get along, HUMANS? Two people & One Apple Left. - Why do Muslims hate us so much, they live on the other side of the world, what have "I" done? ... we aren't Muslims? Western Culture? List can go on... - To spread their word, convert, have people conform to, people must have died... I know there are other religions out there, but I believe there was more blood spilled in the name of Jesus Christ, total. - OIL? HOLY LAND? the list can go on and ON, there will always be controversy for some stupid sh!t. People have their own beliefs, opinions... etc. I am too ignorant to know any better. I am pretty sure I would a better person if I took the time to read the Bible and take some time to go to Church - well different from what my life is now without it? I would love to go to one of those Joel Osteen Ministries, I catch myself watching it when channel surfing. a God? I swing back and forth of the notion if there was or is one, was there a Jesus? - The question that comes to mind is if there is a God, why did he gives up so much knowledge to DOUBT that he actually exist or not? BUT, this is when FREE WILL comes in... So I sway back on forth on that notion. Also I think a lot more on a scientific spectrum... proof. As for a Jesus Christ. There is so many writings out there. Yes, I believe there was such a person. There is a possibility that words got misinterpreted, lost in translation. But I am too ignorant to actually read up more on my own religion. I am not an atheist. A skeleton might jump out the closet now and than on any subject matter. I still circle in the box next to Roman Catholic. You either are a religious person from the start, All is well. Or all wasn't well and you had to believe in something to make you live on well. Whoa, Faith and Optimism are not the same...

I honestly don't even know where to start with this... Let's try here:
-Roman Catholicism is crazy. I'm sure there's many excellent people who are Roman Catholic, but the church is insane.
-The Davinci Code is a novel. If you believe the Davinci Code you'd may as well believe Wizards are hidding in magical alleys behind your favourite restaurants and coffee shops.
-Extremist Muslims hate us because that's basically what Islam was founded on: Conquering non-believers.
-"Christians" and Muslims have both caused innumerable deaths over the centuries, here's why Christians did it (mostly):
: During the Crusades, only priests could read, so the common man had no way to check for themselves what the church was telling them
: Corrupt men became Pope, namely Urban II, and decided to reconquer the Holy Land
: Commoners thought this was what God wanted, couldn't check it out forthemselves, went ahead and did it
: I can give you more details if needed, but this covers it
-There is always conflict and controversy, even without religion. It's only one of many reasons wars are started.
-The Bible and Church won't make you a better person, they're only there for support and strengthening your relationship with God (see my response to Kaine, above)
-God created us to love and be loved by us. If we were unable to ask questions, we would be unable to love.


Out of time for now, if either of you have questions, go for it.

narutojm

that the way i live and i go to church on saturdays as well

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Mashed Potato

I'd say that's a pretty worthwhile activity, if you measure worth by how sore your knees get from kneeling.

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Tanya=^^=

I agree with some of the oppinions posted...Christianism is a way of life, and relationship with God...I think that a lot of people get confused with Religion and Churches. A religion is a way of life leading to mankind reaching it's true purpose: to be loved by God and to do His will, while a Church (seen physically) is a tool for Christians to grow in their path to God. Churches are conformed by humans, who make mistakes, who dissapoint and not always are the best role models even if they preach to know the right way of doing things in life...but also, in the same church you can find people who will share what they've learned in their path to God, people who guide you and give you advice when you need it, people who are willing to be your crying shoulder...people that take you to God because they have trully understood the most important commandment: loving others like God loves you. I think the most important thing is to have that comunication with God, regardless if you practice a method or another for praying. In the end, what matters is to seek Him, to talk to Him and listening to what He wants from you and do His will. People who haven't had an experience of God might think that a Christian's way of life is alienating, that it doesn't allow individuality or that is incredibly restrictive, and it's not like that at all. The moment you experience God, your whole life changes, and is through and only by God how the human being fills all the emptyness in his or her heart...No one has the right to tell anyone that they'll go to hell if they don't read the Bible or because of what they do...Jesus message wasn't a message of dammnation for those who where walking the wrong path, in the contrary, he always was mercyful with those who had hitten rock bottom, like with Mary Magdala, she was a prostitute and Jesus never told her: you listen to me or you'll go to hell. Jesus message is all about revealing to others that God loves us, no matter how we are, no matter what we've done, no matter if we believe in Him or not at first...Jesus said that He came for the sinners, not for the ones who did everything right, and with that, it means God loves us exactly like we are, and with all the baggage we carry...Nothing is too big or impossible to change for God...People who take advantage of other people's faith in order to get money, fame, power, etc. by telling them that the "Church" is the only thing to save them are wrong and the'll be judged by the only one who has that right: God. Christians should be a shout to the world that Jesus lives and that you can follow Him like any other person in the world...John Paul II said that we need young christians who go to the movies, who listen to music, who are just normal kids who set an example in the world by their way of living. People who shut the doors of their heart to God because of something wrong that happened with one person in the church need to understand that you go to church pursuing God, not for any person that's there. He's the real reason why all those people gather in the first place, and also, just because we follow Christ, doesn't mean that Churches are perfect. Like any other entity conformed by humans is most likely for difficulties to happen between their members, but if you don't loose sight of the objective (Jesus), He takes care of everything, and I say it because I've lived this. Christianity is in the end, the burning desire of having that relationship with God and doing His will only and for love, not because of the blessings we receive from Him, not because of the problems solved or because He gives us peace...We should love God just for love, without any other interest or purpose...is a selfless love. There's so much to christianism to be discussed...in the end, is a message of God's love to everyone on earth, regardless their race and even their beliefs (such as budism)...if no one talked to them about God, it's not their fault...we are judged in the proportion of how much we know God (that's in the Bible). What we can do for those who don't know God yet is to talk to them about Him through our actions, through our way of treating them. THAT is a true evangelist, because our example is the best way of telling the world that Jesus lives, if not, how then so many people could live like that, trying to help each other even if they don't get along that well? Jesus loves us, beyond what our minds can comprehend...

Mashed Potato

It's good God taught you compassion and shit, but I think it's time he taught you the importance of paragraphs.

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RNB

I have to disagree with this statement. One can comprehend Jesus's love. If you believe Jesus took the form of a human (physically, mentally, and spiritually) than you cannot say that we cannot comprehend his love. He comprehended his love, he was human, so we must be able to understand why Jesus did the things he did.

The bolded and underlined contradict. I also, completely disagree that Christianity is a "burning desire of having that relationship with God and doing His will only." You make it sound like slavery, when it is not supposed to be that way. Jesus was born equal to all humans with no real "benefits." I mean the accounts of his birth emphasize this with saying he was born in a manger in such. The problem with what you are saying is that you make your relationship with God no more different from the Jewish relationship with God. You make it sound like he is some powerful being who demands your life and your only hope is to submit to his will. However, this is not what Jesus preached. The creation itself was God humbling himself with man, and when he gave man free-choice he inherently threw some of his power out the window. Man broke that perfect relationship (Adam and Eve picking the apple) along with his fellow relationship with man (Cain and Abel) and his relationship with the environment (Adam and Eve taken from the garden.)

The Jews were the people God chose to reveal his will to restore the world, the decided to keep it to themselves and call themselves "God's Chosen People." God kept trying to bring them back with prophets, especially the minor ones who sound like they are right out of the Old Testament. The keep enslaving themselves to rituals. Even Amos says that God hates the fact that they would rather do this than hear the true message.

By the time of Jesus, the law is used by the authorities to get rich and exploit the poor. Jesus comes and throws it all out the window quoting Jewish law to show that they don't even follow their own. Jesus says that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, the true law of love and compassion. When Jesus is tried by the Jewish authorities for blasphemy he doesn't respond to any of the false witnesses who distort his words such as the fact that he said he will destroy and rebuild the temple in three days. He is accused of blasphemy, but this isn't enough to get him executed. So they bring him to Pilate for execution and say that he has committed sedition. The actual Pilate, being an evil tyrant to say the least, allows him to be crucified, though sedition is also not force one to undergo crucifixion so Pilate would later on be fired. And we all know the story from here. Jesus dies, resurrects, and then ascends.

Now I left out a lot because events such as Barabbas being chosen to leave prison instead of Jesus are not in all the gospels. Plus, the gospels were written to different audiences to convey different messages to a specific audience. The Jesus and Barabbas thing is found in Matthew, which was written to the Jews and Matthew's main verdict for the reason of the Jesus's death was the Jewish authorities. So he might have put this in to emphasize that. Whether or not it actually happened, we don't know. Even though I left all that out I still cannot understand how one can simply the message to say "Christianity is in the end, the burning desire of having that relationship with God and doing His will only." That is shallow beyond comparison. Jesus died for all people, not just people who submit to his will only. Why would Jesus only die for some random number of people when he could have died for all? Christianity means you follow Christ. That is what the term means. The restored relationships are outcomes of this.

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"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Tanya=^^=

What I meant by that is that God's love is very difficult for humans to do in the same way...I don't think there's anyone who can say that he or she trully loves someone they don't know or that they would find easy to forgive someone who has killed their parents (as an example); but I agree with you when you say that He became human to transmit that experience of God's love to us...

God does not "demand" us to do something...that's why there's free will...God only lets you know what He wants from you...it's up to you if you do it or not. Doing God's wil can only be truly done and understood when people realize that God's plans are only to bring us happines and wellbeing...some people say that this isn't true because there's people who suffer, but everything has a purpose in this life. Sometimes we get angry at God because He doesn't act like we'd expect, but that's what's wrong: God shouldn't be measured by human standards of any kind...

Doing God's will it's not slavery in any way...He only shows you the way and you decide...When you realize that what He has planned for you is perfect (and by perfect I don't mean a problem-free life, but perfect for your growth), you abbandon yourself to His will, and then is when you live to do God's will...this is a commitment, not an impossition.


Read Mt. 6,10

I never said Jesus only died only for the ones who follow him...I said he came for EVERYONE, The thing is, the more we think we have God figured out, the less we aproximate to what God really is about...in the end, I think the most important thing that Christianism has to say is that God loves us all

RNB

We will eventually be able to share God's love amongst one another. That is why Jesus came, so that we might understand it. God wants to restore the earth back to its creation state.

The underlined is crazy. God does not want suffering. It is a product of The Fall and not something he uses to teach us. In fact, Jesus came to start the extermination of suffering and pain in the world. He came to to bring love and oust everything that was against it.

God is measured by human standards in the gospels. He came down so that he could be measured by human standards. He didn't come down to confuse us more than we were before.

It is slavery. You are coerced into, thereby bypassing the very thought that what one has is free will.


Matthew 6:10 or the whole sermon on the mount? I am guessing the whole thing. Jesus did not say he will destroy you or punish you because you did not submit to him. If you voluntarilly don't want to be with God even when you are standing right in front of him, then you would be separated from him, but not forever. If one is in a "hell" or separation from God and he wanted to come back God would not say, "You have made your choice, I will not accept you." God will accept anyone who wants him at any time in existence. Therefore, there is no punishment for sin anymore. Therefore, one does not have to follow God to save himself from punishment.

So you believe there is no such thing as hell? Good, we are on the same page.

Christianity* does say God loves us all, but he loves people who don't follow him, and he loves people who curse him and stab him in the back. He would not willingly punish someone he loves, therefore he would not punish anyone. God wants us to know him. He does not want to be the far and distant God from the Jewish law. Jesus came down and became a friend of humans. He ate and drank with them (meals being VERY sacred at the time period). God wants us to know him, and we have the ability to do so.

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"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Star_Gazer

What exactly do you mean by mankind's "true purpose"?

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Tanya=^^=

I'm realizing that this phrase "doing God's will" is sometimes very misinterpretated. When I'm refering to this, I don't mean in any way that if you don't do what He wants from you you're automatically punished and salvation is denied to you...no it's not like that! but is is true that that decision will have an effect in your life...positive, negative...I wouldn't know, because God is also forgiving, and even if you don't do what He had thought for you, even so, He never stops blessing you; but, sometimes things can also turn more difficult in your life in comparison if you had done what He wanted, not to hurt you, not to make you suffer, but for you to realize that His plan is perfect...

Suffering is not something God wants us to go through. Even Jesus was somewhat scared the night before He died in the cross, but, suffering is permited by God. As a result of free will, God will not interfere with the circumstances humans have created, so I agree with you when you say that suffering is most of the times a consecuence of our own doing...

But also, Jesus suffered in the cross for a purpose. People need to realize that sometimes we have to go through tough times in order to grow or learn something to prepare for later in life...It is well known that you learn the most out of difficult situations, and after that, comes peace of mind. I hope it doesn't sound masochist, because that's not what I mean.

We have a place in God's plan...I think most people agree with that, but, in order to God's plan to actually happen, we need to listen to what He wants from us and do His will...You say it's slavery...What would have happened if Mary had said no to the angel? What would have happened if she hadn't done God's will? Jesus wouldn't have come to earth as we know it (you can't say that it would have happened anyway because that is something only God knows, and He had prepared Mary specially for this) I think that proves that doing God's will isn't slavery but a commitment and that it has an impact in God's plan...

Read Luke 16, 19-31. With this we have to be careful. Yes, God is mercy and love above everything, but He's not some yo-yo we can play with anyway we want...we can't make God to the measure of our convenience. I agree that you can be in your last breath and if you ask God for forgiveness and regret your sins with all your heart He'll give it to you no matter what you've done, but, in this part of the Bible is very clear that you can't go through judgment twice...if you read carefully, Abraham tells the rich that was in hell that they were warned by prophets and that didn't listen and that he couldn't refresh his tongue with his wet finger . With this we can't say that people who are in hell (I don't like that word but it exists...if it didn't, then what's the point in Jesus dying in the cross to save us from our sins?) can cross to heaven...We have all the chance in our lives but after that...ummm, I don't think so.

Completely agree when you say He loves us all, even people who curse him and denie His existance and that He wants us to know Him like our friend, our Father and that we can know Him (what I meant when I said we can't get God completely I said refering to His plans...who can say they know the exact reasons for what God does?). The only thing I disagree is when you say He'll not punish anyone...and with this I'm not saying He's a punishing God who enjoys our suffering, on the contrary, He suffers with us, but, Jesus' second time arrival to earth will be precisely for judging us according to our actions...Every action has a consecuence and God also has guidelines for us to follow...by breaking them is how Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden and how evil happened in the first place. There wouldn't be a point in the way christians live their lives if there was no thing such hell. We live our lives in order to hopefuly go to heaven and be even closer to God.

It's good to discuss with people like you who don't attack others...I thank you for being respectful and sharing your point of view

Veggiegirl101

Actually you don't loose, you did an excellent job of getting your point across. I congratulate you for what you did do. Usually in situations like these such as a so called "debate", in this case I view it as a conversation.
It's like sharing information, which is what you did and people have a choice, to believe or not to believe. There is a bunch of evidence like you already said that shows that Jesus Christ did live on the Earth. This is really something that people should pay attention too, because Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God. He is God in Human flesh. Christ means Messiah, if any here ever looked in the Old Testament, which is also the Hebrew Bible which is used by the Jews, Jesus Christ is written about there, and all of the things that the prophets from the Old Testament said about Him came to pass and it is recorded in the New Testament. If any of you would like evidence of this, I suggest that you all check out the History Channel's website. Truly, all three of the major religions Judaism, Islam and Christianity seriously recognize Jesus Christ. That's three different text's providing evidence of the same person, this is no coincidence.

Here's a scripture from the Old Testament that speaks about Jesus Christ.

1 Who would have believed what we heard?
Who saw the Lord's power in this?
2 He grew up like a small plant before the Lord,
like a root growing in a dry land.
He had no special beauty or form to make us notice him;
there was nothing in his appearance to make us desire him.
3 He was hated and rejected by people.
He had much pain and suffering.
People would not even look at him.
He was hated, and we didn't even notice him.

4 But he took our suffering on him
and felt our pain for us.
We saw his suffering
and thought God was punishing him.
5 But he was wounded for the wrong we did;
he was crushed for the evil we did.
The punishment, which made us well, was given to him,
and we are healed because of his wounds. -Isaiah 53:1-5

One of the Greatest King's of Israel King David, also wrote about Jesus Christ stating, "1 The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." -Psalms 110:1

If you would like evidence for the existence of King David, here's the

Jesus Christ also brought this same scripture up while he was talking to the Pharises and Saudeces who were trying to catch Him saying something wrong.

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Christ[d]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '[e] 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
-Matthew 22:41-46

DarkRyu

Christianity:

Once upon a time there were millions of people who believed one great male god ruled the universe. They often referred to him as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They ate crackers, and drank wine believing it was his flesh and blood. If they believed in him really hard they'd live forever after they died.

Judaism:

Once upon a time there were millions of people who believed in one great male god. He sent one man to set slaves free from an empire. The man and the slaves crossed an ocean which he split apart. They got lost in the desert for 40 years on a trip that takes 10 days on foot.

Scientology:

Once upon a time millions of people believed alien souls are responsible for our mental problems. The aliens were killed, and shipped to earth on air plane space ships, they were brainwashed and dumped in a volcano. The souls then found humans, and made him feel fear and doubt.

Atheism:

Once upon a time millions of people believed nothing. They said fuck you guys, you're stupid to basically everyone. They lived their lives doing what they want, usually within the laws of the land. When they died nothing happened, except for maybe a funeral.

Agnostics:

Once upon a time millions of people were confused. They didn't know what to believe, and didn't care. Everyone else would annoy the crap out of them trying to convert them. They went on about their lives, and nobody knows what happened to them when they died.

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f1n

Wow, lots of cool opinions in here, and a lot of retarded ones, Miles your sarcasm was been so perfect for this situation... Christianity has been butchered in so many ways I don't know where to start. So a lot of beliefs out there about christianity sort of suck. I have my opinions, and others have their own. I just think anyone that is a christian or of any religion should challenge their stance, and see why what they believe is true, and why they stick to it. So I guess my opinion is that almost everyone in any religion needs to challenge their beliefs.

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