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Old 03-19-2009, 07:42 PM   #1
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The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Sorry if this has already been discussed - couldn't see it immediately.

We've heard Pain's view of the ninja system which is quite a negative vew - he is embittered by the pain it causes but seems to believe that a large dose of pain will allow small pockets of peace to exist for limited periods of time. He also represented the small country against a much stronger force in Konoha which caused pain even through its desire to do good.

Naruto, even in his inexperience of war, acknowledges that peace is not an easy goal to obtain and recognises Pain's argument about a cycle of hatred and revenge caused through the name of justice.

Minato now appears and says that "maybe" as long as the ninja system exists there can be no peace or order.

So what now for the ultimate end of the manga? Does Naruto have to prove that he is greater tha his father and prove that the ninja system can exist with peace and order or will it all come to and end?

One thing is clear - Naruto will have the answer but there will surely have to be some sort of equality between the villages - (not hard now that Konha has been blown off the face of the Earth).

So what do you guys think is the moral/solution of the story?

EDIT: One other thing that occurs to me. Naruto has always been depicted as childlike in his approach to issues. Minato and Sarutobi couldn't solve these issues in all their wisdom. WIll Naruto find the solution with a childlike logic - the simplest of solutions which adults are blind to?
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:48 PM   #2
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

They could go for a Watchmen style approach where they see what Pain has done as being the right thing inevitably, but I very much doubt it.

Personally I think Kishimoto is mirroring the plot partially in this respect on the ending of Sengoku Jidai in Japan by Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. Meaning the Naruto world will be united under one leadership, and considering the plot so far - presumably a benevolent one rather than a normal Shogunate like in Japan's history. Might post a topic about this if anyone cares.

Edit: Just to expand, Naruto's answer would presumably be along the lines of removing the villages rather than the shinobi. He's already seen past petty "nationalities" of the villages with his friendship with Gaara so I think this is the most plausible.

Last edited by Tzu Men; 03-19-2009 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:50 PM   #3
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Getting rid of the shinobi system will not stop war, suffering and chaos IMO. Its human nature to fight, but Minato spoke of it as if peace alone could exist. However, peace and war are just like yin/yang, one cannot exist without the other. SO, clearly narutos going to have to find another solution other than "get rid of the shinobi" IMO.

Lol, get rid of the shinobi system would mean utter choas because Without sytem, there is chaos.
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Old 03-19-2009, 07:51 PM   #4
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

I brought this up in the 420 discussion board.

My generalized notes:
1) Peace can only be found within - meaning Naruto would have to change the hearts of the people.
2) The Goverment system can be changed - but the primary issue is power struggle over land, something that can only be solved by #1.
3) Both Pain and Madara have different views on how to bring peace to the world - but one thing they definitely share in common, total control. Through total control, there are no disagreements. A very asian theme (you see the concept in a lot of movies). Unlike a democracy, where control is divided. But as we all know, "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Feel free to comment.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:06 PM   #5
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Tzu - From what Ive seen on this forum Kishi certainly seems to model the manga on either historical fact or legend but I must admit Im fairly ignorant on either. Naruto has said he will become Hokage since day 1 and surely he must do? I personally feel that he will become a/the leader but quite how he will bring nations together is beyond me and would surely prolong the manga for some time.

I also agree that the ninja system will go on - It's the basis of the story and the basis of Naruto's belief. However, Pain's view of the ninja system has already been framed by Kishi as a "warped idea of peace".
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:06 PM   #6
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

No utopia in this life, there are no perfect ideas, only perfect moments. It's like, you can't stop the war, so the best thing you can do is to be good at it. And live the best you can.
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The great off panel war has begun...also called the war of one panel because most fights started and ended in one panel.

Also Kin and Gin as substitute for kyuubi chakra (the greatest amount of chakra in Naruto world) is something Kishi pulled out of his ass. I lost major respect. It would be like near the end of LOTR there happens to be another slightly weaker ring and Sauron is like "that will do". It kind of shits on everything established up to that point. It kind of insults my intelligence.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:09 PM   #7
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Well, Pain makes a very good point. I'll bring up 9/11, after all that pain and suffering America, for the most part save some crazy celebrities in Hollywood Land, were united. We sought peace through force. Since then, we've become very divided and angry, added with the economic mess we're in, another large scale disaster would be the only thing that would unite most of the country the quickest. As Pain says.

But doing away with the Shinobi System would be paramount to doing away with all the world's military. Would it solve anything? No, we'd just go to war with ourselves possibly as conscripted soldiers. There can be no peace until all are equal, and that is impossible because nature itself makes us unequal. For every Peyton Manning there is a Stephen Hawkings.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:11 PM   #8
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

If Kishi going to do a Watchmen style approach, just dont create a ninja that flashes everybody.

Now at that world ninjas are tools, dogs of war where the war economy reign supreme.

It's not about changing the world. It's about doing our best to leave the world the way it is. It's about respecting the will of others and believing in your own
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:41 PM   #9
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash View Post
Getting rid of the shinobi system will not stop war, suffering and chaos IMO. Its human nature to fight, but Minato spoke of it as if peace alone could exist. However, peace and war are just like yin/yang, one cannot exist without the other. SO, clearly narutos going to have to find another solution other than "get rid of the shinobi" IMO.

Lol, get rid of the shinobi system would mean utter choas because Without sytem, there is chaos.
Solution = Tolerance. Understanding.

It's also not human nature to fight; it's human nature to survive, we will do what we can in order to survive.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:52 PM   #10
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgnisV View Post
Solution = Tolerance. Understanding.

It's also not human nature to fight; it's human nature to survive, we will do what we can in order to survive.
Yes it is human nature to fight, we are inherently violent, if we aren't then why has there been violence in every region, culture and country since ancient Sumer? I think someone above (forgive me for not remembering the name) mentioned on we are not made equal by nature, this is a very good point, furthermore resources, even in a fictional world, are limited. The solution isn't so simple as "tolerance," as the weak will fight the strong as the poor will fight the rich. Always has been, always will be.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:54 PM   #11
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

of course there can be no peace..what minato said was common sense

their labour...their job has them killing for clients..or protecting clients ..sometimes just chores but a lot of things is to do with fighting...how can peace come if the very nature of your job..or your society of your economy comes from fighting...so therefore villages who has better skilled ninjas get more clients and become prospurous ...so all ninjas train to be better at killing
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:59 PM   #12
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Emachina was absolutely right, sure the shinobi system is inherently violent but are human civilizations not like this, regardless of the form they take? Simply having elite warriors does not mean violence will be the outcome per se, I would say humanity struggles against itself. We have finite resources, ergo we have to fight over them and even within society, there's the strong and the weak. This sort of statement, will wise, would be just as true if he simply said "there can be no peace."
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:03 PM   #13
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

no in society we gain a life through labour ..through contributing to society that isnt to do with physical violence ...i get what u mean by its a dog eat dog world but still the very nature of their world, their economy is built from violence....konoha propours because it has strong ninjas so more clients go to them
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:12 PM   #14
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom07 View Post
no in society we gain a life through labour ..through contributing to society that isnt to do with physical violence ...i get what u mean by its a dog eat dog world but still the very nature of their world, their economy is built from violence....konoha propours because it has strong ninjas so more clients go to them
I acknowledge that it may be inherently violent, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be anyways per se. We do not have shinobi villages and we have genocide in Africa, military-backed dictators/juntas, fundamentalist extremists, etc etc. The human condition is also about misery, as brutal as that may be "Pain's" are getting created in this universe as we speak and we sure as hell do not have shinobi...
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:20 PM   #15
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Re: The ninja system - "there can be no peace or order"

i get what you are saying ...we have wars because man are selfish..every nation only have their own interest at heart ..i study a bit of politics and one of the ways according to realism to prevent this is to have a balance of power....for example ...the 1st gave every nation a tailed beast so that all can defend themself and will not be completely annihilated by another stronger country.

but our society is moving away from that...wars still happen but not as often as in the past ...not like world wars..we are not barbarians like the romans with their colleseum killing christians...we have other ways now to satisfy our neads...in a capitalist society now, nations depend on their firms ...take china for example...great economic growth through lots of huge corporations investing in the country due to low labour costs etc

no we can never know what its like in narutoverse...ppl like pain in our world does exist some do think like pain..in fact what pain said about peace actually made a lot of sense to me....but luckily for us, in our world someone like pain can never happen because we dont have chakra and ninjutsu and rinnengans
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