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Old 06-11-2010, 04:34 PM   #16
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

The short answer is, yes they can. Although, as several people have pointed out ,their money doesn't travel all that well.

The reason that Jesus told that rich man to sell everything and follow him was to prove how once you start loving your wealth and worldly possessions more than God, it will become impossible for you to actually follow Jesus and his teachings.

But that doesn't mean that God's blessings won't include the enough money to provide for your needs.

@Naka: So, if the Bible isn't divine in origin, please explain how it could be written by over 40 people, during the course of many years, and still all fit together, without contradicting itself? Just askin'.
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:30 PM   #17
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SageofHalo
@Naka: So, if the Bible isn't divine in origin, please explain how it could be written by over 40 people, during the course of many years, and still all fit together, without contradicting itself? Just askin'.
...I fucking lol'd.

Also; they have a name for books written by a collection of authors. They're called anthologies. Go figure. 8D

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Old 06-11-2010, 07:38 PM   #18
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

Yes, they will go to hell, enjoy your hypocrisy.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:47 AM   #19
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

What hypocrisy. Those that have earned it honestly as payment from one man to another for his labor as deemed fair between the two are safe from any man or beings judgement. I am a contractor that offers my services to those in need of my service. I am paid upon completion of my service. My purpose / drive does not come from a love of money but the love of my work and my greater responsibility to provide for my family. I use the money I make to buy the services of others to provide for me and my family. To hate, scorn or condemn another man for honestly making money is the true hypocrisy. But realize that there is a differentiation between honestly earning the money you make and a looter like Al Gore. Who wants to profit off of pedaling falsehoods and stands to benefit from government laws. Their are rich looters and poor looters as well as rich moochers and poor moochers. The bible does not command me to help those that can help themselves. No, God commands me to defend those who cannot defend themselves. Just because someone is poor does not mean they are defenseless and just because someone is rich does not mean they are evil.


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..."But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made – before it can be looted or mooched – made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss – the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery – that you must offer them values, not wounds – that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade – with reason, not force, as their final arbiter – it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability – and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality – the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth – the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money – and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another – their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun...
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:29 AM   #20
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

No one is criticizing hard-earned money. However, I am sure that if Jesus had a ton of money, he would probably give it away to the poor. Jesus didn't have many possessions because he was busy trying to heal people and preach to people. Of course, I am assuming that a Christian's goal is to be like Christ.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:50 AM   #21
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

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Originally Posted by RNB View Post
No one is criticizing hard-earned money. However, I am sure that if Jesus had a ton of money, he would probably give it away to the poor. Jesus didn't have many possessions because he was busy trying to heal people and preach to people. Of course, I am assuming that a Christian's goal is to be like Christ.
Jesus's calling from God was what it was. He was called to preach. Everyone is called to preach. But who said that preaching means speaking. Who said that giving up all of your possessions is the only way to be Christian. Don't those who lead with their actions also preach with their actions? Our first problem with this debate though is that we are excepting that wealth is a bad thing. Nowhere in the bible does it say that wealth is bad. The bible urges people to use their wealth for good. So the second problem with the debate is what is good.

Is the government good because it gives money to the poor that they have taken from others? What if the money they gave was used by the poor to buy drugs and used for violence. Then aren't they just creating more evil. Is it good that the money given helps 1 person but enslaves 100 others?

So now we reach the third problem. If money taken is given to those who have not earned it is the money (wealth) of any value. My answer is no. That money that has not been earned through the labor of ones mind is of no value the minute it touches their hands. It may make them momentarily wealthy but that wealth will be lost. Take the recent crash of the housing market for example. The government foremost and the banks additionally gave out wealth to those they knew had not earned it and could not afford it. For years wealth and money were created. But under the premise that money unearned is of no value that wealth disappeared taking a lot of earned money with it. It takes your mind to make money not an open hand.

Back to the Christian question. I am a Christian and feel that wealth and money is the worse thing I can turn over to those who haven't earned it. That is the worst disservice I could do to any man on this earth. To turn him into a slave of my generosity. To get pleasure out of knowing that he needs my sorrow for him. But the greatest pleasure I can get is letting that same man earn my money. To pay him his due as I reap more wealth to in turn help pay other men their due's for money earned. You are right I won't be able to take money with me but I will be damned if I leave it behind to spread more sin, more apathy. And it is wrong for any man to try and accuse me of hypocrisy for a situation he obviously does not understand.
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:41 PM   #22
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

How can followers of Christ justify remaining willing to give a significant part of their earnings to the poor, seeing how so many people out there are starving each day? Didn't the bible state that God is the provider, and those who have faith in Him will be taken care of? So what's the point in wealth accumulation, instead of giving all excess to the poor, if you are a true believer of God's existance?

Why is there a need to buy that television set or spend money watching that movie and other unnecessary earthly pleasures and to buy things that you do not need?

Why take the irrational chance of risking your eternal place in heaven at all, for some finite earthly pleasures to satisfy selfish personal greed?
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:45 PM   #23
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

Old argument is old.
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:49 PM   #24
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

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Originally Posted by Law&Order View Post
Who said that giving up all of your possessions is the only way to be Christian.
As I've said, why risk it at all? Are you so attached to your material wealth that you're unwilling to give them all up to feed that poor and homeless?

For Atheists, it is understandable, since they don't have morals (apparently), but if you are aiming to go to heaven, doing every single thing to maximize your chance to pass through the pearly gates is the only sensible thing to do.

Knowing that countless of people starving and living in extreme poverty, to remain unwilling to give up all that savings and excess earnings (and not trusting that God would be the provider in times of need) would be a clear sign of attachment to material wealth no matter how you might rationalize against the virtue of "selflessly helping as many poor people as you can". That one thing that stands between you and God.
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:49 PM   #25
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

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Old argument is old.
People come and go. Topic remains a valid and relevant point to debate upon.

I can either start a new topic, or I can "resurrect" [pun intended] this one to (hopefully) bring some "life" to this quite forum.

Last edited by aeondrift; 08-09-2010 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:34 AM   #26
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

Yes. This argument is old - but it still produces gems like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeondrift View Post
For Atheists, it is understandable, since they don't have morals (apparently), but if you are aiming to go to heaven, doing every single thing to maximize your chance to pass through the pearly gates is the only sensible thing to do.
Oh, I laugh at you. (even with the "(apparently)").
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Old 08-10-2010, 11:55 AM   #27
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

FIY it was sacarsm. I do not believe in the probable existance of any kind of personal god(s).
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Old 08-10-2010, 11:58 AM   #28
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

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well it depends, there are some situations where having money and making money can be good.

Lets say you have a successful money-maker. he should donate all his excess money to be "christain". but if he constantly gives away a percentage of profits in time he could easily have donated more than if he gave a one time donation.

If i ever become a successful money maker ill probably adopt something similar. Not to be "christian" or to go to heaven, but because, for me, it would be the right thing to do
Regardless of the rationalisation, it is not about what we thinks ultimately, but what Jesus said.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:08 PM   #29
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

Ah. Then I laugh with you.

But seriously - we're having some real issues with the sarcasm people. Make it blatant.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:52 PM   #30
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Re: Can rich Christians go to heaven according to the bible?

This topic does suck. Make a new one that isn't about stupid god shit. All the theists around here are pussies now. Except for the few manly/hawt ones with red names, of course.
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