Jesus, not the first - Page 3

Hitomare Urufu · 12-17-2009, 04:02 PM

@1 The new testament is written from shortly after he died to the end of the life of the last living Apostle.

@#2 That's why I used Wiki.

@#3 Everything in the Bible has been translated from Greek, Hebrew, and Chaldee which to my understanding have no commas and periods. Plus you have to look at the verses before #9 aswell, what was he talking about? The gifts to the church.

@#4 Not really i just wanted to burn Obama.

@#5 Where did the NRSV come from? Last I heard they were corrupt manuscripts.

@P.S. I may be a genius but I'm a very lazy genius. Kinda like Shikamaru but not as smart as him.

I disagree with the NAB the Catholics have too many corrupt teachings.

**Mal** · 12-17-2009, 04:14 PM

1) You're still not saying why that makes it correct. Take A Million Little Pieces, that dude made up all kinds of shit and passed it off as the truth about himself. If someone can lie about themself, what stops a person from lying about someone else?

2) You didn't use Wiki. You said yourself, essentially, "the Bible is right because the Bible says so."

3) Actually the entire chapter is about love. Verse 8 is a transitional verse:

Quote:

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

It goes from talking about love, to talking about prophesies, tongues (speaking) and knowledge about God. When the perfect God comes, our imperfect prophesies/speech/knowledge will disappear.

4) Too bad you only succeeded at making yourself look intolerant and ignorant.

5) Oh right, there's nothing for me to respond to for number 5.

6) Stop making excuses. If you want to be taken seriously, then take the discussion seriously. If you can't do that, then GTFO.

Edit: Anyone waiting for the EXCITING CONCLUSION is going to be sorely disappointed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PM from HU

I'm tired of argueing. Love is a gift to the church one of three that remain untill only love remains.
Go on believing what you want, God Bless.

Also, I can't be bothered to read all of the above, but has the original issue been settled yet? I could possibly add to it.

Hitomare Urufu · 12-17-2009, 04:35 PM

We both think we're right. You can go on and on, and I can go on and on till this is closed. But I'm getting tired and starting tomorrow my year ends busily.
So as my last post of the year... Merry Christmas, have a happy New Year, and God Bless y'all.

P.S. Awful anti-climactic ain't it?
I know when I'm not going to get somebody to see the way I do, and Mal is one of those people. And when that happens I simply shrug my shoulders and walk off because I find it too time consuming and troublesome to argue like this.

**Miburo** · 12-17-2009, 04:53 PM

You really shouldn't be posting in the DEBATE SECTION then, ImageniusjustlikeShikamarulololololol-chan.

Nerox · 12-17-2009, 05:02 PM

lol, dude, seriously?

you just copy-pasted some stuff, say your opinion is the right one, and when you are proven wrong you simple leave with such a comment?

that quite pathetic, congrats

p.s.: i pray to odin, that you'll not fall in battle, but die pathetically of old age !

Nakaichiro · 01-04-2010, 03:45 AM

@ Hitomare urufu.

Something you need to consider about having the IQ of a "genius".
1) Intelligence is your ability to understand and make sense of information given to you. However, your intelligence can be corrupted by preconceptions. You are a classic case of this. You may be intelligent but you are hampering that intelligence by not allowing equal weight to both lots of information given to you. You show a bias to religion and the bible and instead of standing on the sidelines and watching the 2 lots of information battle it out in your head. You stand in front of the bible as a body guard and bat away the counter information coming at you.

2) Your IQ does not add weight to your argument in a debate. Your IQ can affect how well you think out your argument and put it forward, which will inherently add weight to your argument. But saying:
"The bible is right because it says so in the bible"
"My understanding of all the information is right because I have a genius IQ"
Is all just pointless.
I could very easily say that these 2 points that I have put forward are more right because I too have a genius IQ, but that is pointless. I will rather allow the strength of my argument to convey my intelligence than try to state my IQ number as a bearing factor on the strength of my arguments.

I also dont care for people on the internet to know or care about my IQ level. I know people with double digit IQ's that can hold a conversation with me, and people with far higher IQ's than me that just don't have the same level of understanding as me on some topics. That is all okay, because it is life's lessons and experiences that govern how much someone can understand a topic. A lower IQ person may need more time being involved in the topic of gravitational affects on oceanic tides, but with an open mind they will eventually understand everything to do with it and be able to talk about it with any genius who also understands it.

Im getting off topic a bit here, but the basic point here is: Try to approach a topic of debate with an open mind and no preconceptions, and you may just be able to use that Genius level IQ that you claim to have, and put it to some use.

The point of a debate is not to convert people to your views and ways, religious missions and crusades are more suited to that end. If you came here with the idea that your great intellect was going to convert someone to being religious then you are greatly overestimating your own intelligence.

**Mal** · 01-05-2010, 09:27 AM

Agreed, except for that part about crusades: They're only good for getting people pissed off at you.

Nakaichiro · 01-06-2010, 12:35 AM

HaHa, good point. I award you this certificate of genius level IQ for your fine cognitive reasoning displayed in the above post.

ACt · 03-30-2010, 04:21 PM

Interesting debate. Overall, the initial argument is a series of examples of a common myth that has been borrowed, altered and skewed - the myth of Jesus being such a birth is often boiled down to a mistranslation or a bit of inspired writing to gain people's attention. To date, all the "evidence" for this being the case came after his death, so I am inclined to be very skeptical. That AND my extensive biology background providing evidence that it is impossible. Jesus sort of precedes in vitro fertilization.

There were a few other points here that I feel the need to address as well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azumi

lol not really. Christianity was founded after its founder, Jesus Christ. and pagans have no religion, that's the reason they were called pagans. but to be fair, it is true that many Christians follow some traditions of pagans.

That's a very narrow definition of religion you have. Generally, religion is a series of beliefs, customs and morals that define humanity's place int he universe. Pagans had loads of those - they just tended to worship many gods and nature rather than one. Christians called a lot of people pagans, despite differences in their beliefs. It was just a term for "those who don't believe as we do." Much like European Settlers called Native Americans "savages."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurricane Chronicles

Christianity is derived from Judiasm, because Jesus was the "king of jews". And since christianity is supposed to be the following of the path/life Jesus lived, It would be resonable to say christians are supposed to pretty much do everything the jews do except they believe that Jesus is Gods son and The Savior. So saying that Christianity takes from other religions is a lie. Christianity is born from Judiasm and since Judism/Hebrew is the First religion to believe in One God (Monotheism), you can pretty much say that it's one and only influence is Original and One of a Kind.

Not quite true. Another attempt at monotheism was undertaken by the Pharoh Akhenaten, who banned all worship other than to the sun god Aten. It didn't work and his successor, Tutankhamen, reversed this ruling and Egypt reverted to polytheism. I mention this not to be a jerk, but rather to bring up the theory that both Atenism and Judaism, though dates are disputed, arose quite close to each other and along with many other Egyptian influences on Judaism, it is thought that there was some major influence from the brief worship of Aten. This serves as a root for all monotheisms of today, which are remarkably similar. It also demonstrates the flexibility of religion in adopting other ideas and molding to necessary states to gain purchase in the minds of the masses.

Which brings me to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitomare Urufu

I hate it when people say the Bible is incomplete, It is complete.

The bible is complete in one sense; in another sense, it is a haphazardly cobbling of ancient and "recent" texts designed to suit the type of morals, views and directions of a select few who wanted to propagate the Christian religion. The old testament borrows from Judaism, Paganism and goodness knows how many other stories, legends and myths. The new testament is a hand picking of any number of religious writings of the time. The classic example are the Gospels. Ever wonder why there are four? Well there aren't - there are many: other apostles (including Judas), various unknown sources of the time, Jesus and, although in debate, Mary Magdeline. Why a religion based on Jesus Christ's teachings would leave out any account of his life, including his own, is unfathomable.

Or, it is a case of a certain picture of what the religious leaders wanted at the time. Thusly, the bible can be considered complete, but more correctly as "selectively complete". It isn't a historical text because it was willfully piecemeal-ed together.

Add on the rest of the translations problems (one of which you pointed out yourself) and you have a historically flawed document that cannot be considered true. It can still be used to teach morals and ethics and is by no means an unimportant book (despite my belief that humanity could write a better text in a heartbeat), but it isn't not true.

Ero-Sage · 04-01-2010, 12:42 PM

I read the op only and not sure where the dabate has gone since then but for anybody interested in a reason why Jesus, Horus, Christians, pagans etc. all have seemingly shared histories this video is the best explanation i've seen to date. I recommend it highly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbPp-orGJMk

Lalalila · 07-16-2010, 02:33 PM

There's no date of Jesus birth day in the Bible, the date was stated by Latin Church and it's bull shit.

kael03 · 07-19-2010, 01:08 AM

Wait, you necro'd a thread that hadn't been touched in 3 and a half months about a man from a fairy tale's birth being compared to the births of other men in fairy tales dating several centuries before the Julian Calendar system was created?

stubborn_d0nkey · 07-19-2010, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azumi

lol not really. Christianity was founded after its founder, Jesus Christ. and pagans have no religion, that's the reason they were called pagans. but to be fair, it is true that many Christians follow some traditions of pagans.

Quote:

Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic") is a blanket term used to refer to various polytheistic, non-Abrahamic religious traditions. Its exact definition may vary.

From wikipedia, but still, you get the gist of it

P.S. My 1500th post! (official post of course, I already passed 1500 once before :P)

feel honored azumi, that this post is a reply to you. lol

Lalalila · 07-19-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

Wait, you necro'd a thread that hadn't been touched in 3 and a half months about a man from a fairy tale's birth being compared to the births of other men in fairy tales dating several centuries before the Julian Calendar system was created?

yup... but it might be fairy tale for you not for others.

zensc · 05-12-2011, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostShade

Many say that Christianity has copied a lot of the Pagan's religions, so I'm not surprised about this.Thanks for the information.

Yeah that is correct! That happened just after they slaughtered all the pagans in their gods name. They quickly adapted few stories from their gods, as christian religion was brand new.
For me, religion is a tool of mass manipulation, nothing more.

12-17-2009, 04:02 PM	#31
Hitomare Urufu Genin Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Gone. Posts: 67 Thanks: 15 Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first @1 The new testament is written from shortly after he died to the end of the life of the last living Apostle. @#2 That's why I used Wiki. @#3 Everything in the Bible has been translated from Greek, Hebrew, and Chaldee which to my understanding have no commas and periods. Plus you have to look at the verses before #9 aswell, what was he talking about? The gifts to the church. @#4 Not really i just wanted to burn Obama. @#5 Where did the NRSV come from? Last I heard they were corrupt manuscripts. @P.S. I may be a genius but I'm a very lazy genius. Kinda like Shikamaru but not as smart as him. I disagree with the NAB the Catholics have too many corrupt teachings. __________________ If you don't feel like standing behind your troops feel free to stand infront of them. Notice the different positions of Sakura and Hinata's hands on Naruto's shoulder, Sakura's is more of a friendly position while hinata's is more of a GF's possesive position IMHO I found this helpful maybe you will to http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5496615/1/My_Naruhina_rant Last edited by Hitomare Urufu; 12-17-2009 at 04:11 PM.

12-17-2009, 04:35 PM	#33
Hitomare Urufu Genin Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Gone. Posts: 67 Thanks: 15 Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first We both think we're right. You can go on and on, and I can go on and on till this is closed. But I'm getting tired and starting tomorrow my year ends busily. So as my last post of the year... Merry Christmas, have a happy New Year, and God Bless y'all. P.S. Awful anti-climactic ain't it? I know when I'm not going to get somebody to see the way I do, and Mal is one of those people. And when that happens I simply shrug my shoulders and walk off because I find it too time consuming and troublesome to argue like this. __________________ If you don't feel like standing behind your troops feel free to stand infront of them. Notice the different positions of Sakura and Hinata's hands on Naruto's shoulder, Sakura's is more of a friendly position while hinata's is more of a GF's possesive position IMHO I found this helpful maybe you will to http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5496615/1/My_Naruhina_rant Last edited by Hitomare Urufu; 12-17-2009 at 04:41 PM.

12-17-2009, 04:53 PM	#34
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first You really shouldn't be posting in the *DEBATE SECTION* then, ImageniusjustlikeShikamarulololololol-chan.

12-17-2009, 05:02 PM	#35
Nerox Mah'alleinir Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Golden Hall Posts: 743 Thanks: 2,254 Thanked 2,671 Times in 1,262 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first lol, dude, seriously? you just copy-pasted some stuff, say your opinion is the right one, and when you are proven wrong you simple leave with such a comment? that quite pathetic, congrats p.s.: i pray to odin, that you'll not fall in battle, but die pathetically of old age !

01-04-2010, 03:45 AM	#36
Nakaichiro Genin Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 156 Thanks: 7 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first @ Hitomare urufu. Something you need to consider about having the IQ of a "genius". 1) Intelligence is your ability to understand and make sense of information given to you. However, your intelligence can be corrupted by preconceptions. You are a classic case of this. You may be intelligent but you are hampering that intelligence by not allowing equal weight to both lots of information given to you. You show a bias to religion and the bible and instead of standing on the sidelines and watching the 2 lots of information battle it out in your head. You stand in front of the bible as a body guard and bat away the counter information coming at you. 2) Your IQ does not add weight to your argument in a debate. Your IQ can affect how well you think out your argument and put it forward, which will inherently add weight to your argument. But saying: "The bible is right because it says so in the bible" "My understanding of all the information is right because I have a genius IQ" Is all just pointless. I could very easily say that these 2 points that I have put forward are more right because I too have a genius IQ, but that is pointless. I will rather allow the strength of my argument to convey my intelligence than try to state my IQ number as a bearing factor on the strength of my arguments. I also dont care for people on the internet to know or care about my IQ level. I know people with double digit IQ's that can hold a conversation with me, and people with far higher IQ's than me that just don't have the same level of understanding as me on some topics. That is all okay, because it is life's lessons and experiences that govern how much someone can understand a topic. A lower IQ person may need more time being involved in the topic of gravitational affects on oceanic tides, but with an open mind they will eventually understand everything to do with it and be able to talk about it with any genius who also understands it. Im getting off topic a bit here, but the basic point here is: Try to approach a topic of debate with an open mind and no preconceptions, and you may just be able to use that Genius level IQ that you claim to have, and put it to some use. The point of a debate is not to convert people to your views and ways, religious missions and crusades are more suited to that end. If you came here with the idea that your great intellect was going to convert someone to being religious then you are greatly overestimating your own intelligence.

01-05-2010, 09:27 AM	#37
Mal Scotch Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,101 Thanks: 12,855 Thanked 10,823 Times in 3,840 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Agreed, except for that part about crusades: They're only good for getting people pissed off at you.

01-06-2010, 12:35 AM	#38
Nakaichiro Genin Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 156 Thanks: 7 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first HaHa, good point. I award you this certificate of genius level IQ for your fine cognitive reasoning displayed in the above post.

04-01-2010, 12:42 PM	#40
Ero-Sage Perverted Hermit Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: In a van down by the river. Posts: 884 Thanks: 1,242 Thanked 379 Times in 215 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first I read the op only and not sure where the dabate has gone since then but for anybody interested in a reason why Jesus, Horus, Christians, pagans etc. all have seemingly shared histories this video is the best explanation i've seen to date. I recommend it highly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbPp-orGJMk

07-16-2010, 02:33 PM	#41
Lalalila Missing-Nin Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Moon Posts: 1,748 Thanks: 365 Thanked 1,103 Times in 754 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first There's no date of Jesus birth day in the Bible, the date was stated by Latin Church and it's bull shit.

07-19-2010, 01:08 AM	#42
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,603 Thanks: 4,852 Thanked 8,542 Times in 3,786 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Wait, you necro'd a thread that hadn't been touched in 3 and a half months about a man from a fairy tale's birth being compared to the births of other men in fairy tales dating several centuries before the Julian Calendar system was created?

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