Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage - Page 2

Axiom · 01-10-2011, 09:34 PM

I have iron lungs like Kallark. It may be insufficient still, but one can hope.

kluang · 01-10-2011, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagoro
Everyone will twist this to defend w/e they believed was the cause.

If Obama is smart, he will use this incident, those crosshair and the tea party, use some apophenia to connect them and kill Palin's career.

kael03 · 01-10-2011, 09:57 PM

The masses don't follow any form of logic. To quote Tommy Lee Jones in Men In Black "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals and you know it." The majority of people will read what they want from this because they are poorly informed due to biased news. These same people will no think twice about anything else because they are just as biased as the news they listen to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kluang

If Obama is smart, he will use this incident, those crosshair and the tea party, use some apophenia to connect them and kill Palin's career.

Unfortunately this path may kill his own career and any hopes for re-election. The people that want him out of office will see this tactic as "heartless" and "he approves of unnecessary violence to further his cause". Ironically these same people could be seen outside of their town halls when the healthcare reform was voted in, holding signs saying "Keep your government hands off my medicare!".

Axiom · 01-10-2011, 11:04 PM

I always like the quote myself as well. Unfortunately I'm forced to agree with it. People often seem to take the the very first opinion they hear on a subject as an undeniable truth. I was actually messing with my cousin a couple days ago about one of those conspiracy videos floating around the internet. He watched it, and immediately accepted everything it said. Making no attempt to learn the facts of his own accord, or verify its content and claims there of. A terrible thing for sure.

ask me anything · 01-10-2011, 11:16 PM

WTF?! Some of you people are making the most asinine claims. How exactly does Sarah Palin in any way have anything to do with this??? If you would do a little research before you talk you would know this guy has been planning to kill this congresswoman ever since 2007!!! That's before anybody (outside of alaska) even knew who Sarah Palin was. Come on people.

This guy is an extreme left wing, atheist, liberal.
Sarah Palin, is an extreme right wing, christian, conservative.
Their exact opposites of one another, yet they have (supposedly) similar enough views that she "inspired" him to do what he did. Fail logic is fail.

stubborn_d0nkey · 01-11-2011, 07:16 AM

My theory is that this was organised by feminists. They always want equality and shit, so i guess they were pretty upset that there hasn't been any female political assassination in U.S. history. It's just not fair to women!

LonelyNinja · 01-11-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ask me anything

WTF?! Some of you people are making the most asinine claims. How exactly does Sarah Palin in any way have anything to do with this??? If you would do a little research before you talk you would know this guy has been planning to kill this congresswoman ever since 2007!!! That's before anybody (outside of alaska) even knew who Sarah Palin was. Come on people.

The extreme right wingers are constantly spouting out their violent, gun-filled rhetoric at the American people. For fuck's sake, Glenn Beck's website has a picture of him wielding a gun cycling through his home page. As for the guy plotting to shoot/kill Giffords, yeah, it's been a work in progress. A lot of people plot stupid shit like this all the time, especially if they're mentally unstable, but they don't all act on it for one reason or another.

But when a politician posts a list of other politicians (politicians whom the gunman had an issue with for voting for the healthcare bill, which the gunman also opposed, by the way) and marks them with motherfucking crosshairs it might push some people over the edge or rally them to action. Also, Palin said "don't retreat, just reload" to opponents of healthcare reform.

When I hear "reload" I think of a gun. When I see crosshairs I think gun. Put two and two together.

Quote:

This guy is an extreme left wing, atheist, liberal.
Sarah Palin, is an extreme right wing, christian, conservative.
Their exact opposites of one another, yet they have (supposedly) similar enough views that she "inspired" him to do what he did. Fail logic is fail.

They oppose healthcare reform and they bitch about abuse of government power. Drop the "supposedly." And before you say "HURR DURR THAT ISN'T ENOUGH" think about the Allies during World War II. Soviet Union was Communist. America, England, France, etc. were democratic. Polar opposites, yet they banned together over "Fascists bad." Also, the gunman was mentally unstable. You can't really expect the guy to rationally think about the similarities and differences between his beliefs and Palin's.

My point of bringing up Palin's list: it's fucking unacceptable to publish shit like that because people can, will, and have acted in response to such things. If you don't believe me, think about how many people have been persecuted and executed because they were labeled as enemies of the state. Palin's list is the same thing, except a lot more ignorant.

ask me anything · 01-11-2011, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonelyNinja

The extreme right wingers are constantly spouting out their violent, gun-filled rhetoric at the American people. For fuck's sake, Glenn Beck's website has a picture of him wielding a gun cycling through his home page. As for the guy plotting to shoot/kill Giffords, yeah, it's been a work in progress. A lot of people plot stupid shit like this all the time, especially if they're mentally unstable, but they don't all act on it for one reason or another.

But when a politician posts a list of other politicians (politicians whom the gunman had an issue with for voting for the healthcare bill, which the gunman also opposed, by the way) and marks them with motherfucking crosshairs it might push some people over the edge or rally them to action. Also, Palin said "don't retreat, just reload" to opponents of healthcare reform.

Cool story bro, but your assuming way too much. Can you prove that this gunman ever saw Palins little poster? If he didn't then it never affected his judgment at all, and Palin has nothing to do with this.

Palins poster was designed to point out politicians that she and her party had personal disagreements with so that they could focus on them in a civil debate. She never said, "Let's go kill these guys", and any SANE person would understand that. Just because this guy was insane doesn't mean that she did anything wrong, and we should have to tip toe around and watch what we say so it doesn't offend someone or send them off the deep end. That's ridiculous thinking.

Example:

When I drive down the road, I assume the other people can actually drive properly and won't fucking run into me. We have police and highway patrols officers that efforce the traffic laws, and keep most reckless driving to a minimal. Even so I keep an eye on people and if I see someone that's not driving right, I should call the police and let them know. From what your saying if I see someone driving recklessly I should just get off the road entirely, and walk to avoid incidents. See how that doesn't work.

Same thing here. I go about my life assuming people aren't crazy as shit, and behave normally. If I see someone acting crazy, I'm gonna keep a close eye on that dude. This gunman took classes at a community college, and everyone there knew he was fucking nuts. They tried repeating to get him expelled from class to no avail. People even tried to report this guy as as insane to authorities and they did nothing. It's because of the states failure to act that this incident happened.

Quote:

When I hear "reload" I think of a gun. When I see crosshairs I think gun. Put two and two together.

I'm reminded of obama's famous quote. "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun".

Quote:

They oppose healthcare reform and they bitch about abuse of government power. Drop the "supposedly." And before you say "HURR DURR THAT ISN'T ENOUGH" think about the Allies during World War II. Soviet Union was Communist. America, England, France, etc. were democratic. Polar opposites, yet they banned together over "Fascists bad." Also, the gunman was mentally unstable. You can't really expect the guy to rationally think about the similarities and differences between his beliefs and Palin's.

You need to read up on your history. WWII had nothing to do with ideology and camaraderie WWII was a giant power struggle. Nothing more. The Soviet Union saw that it could expand into Eastern Europe. The U.S. was making a small fortune supplying the Allies (and the Axis) before they entered the war. Even before the war was over U.S. and England knew the Soviets were going to be the next major threat, but we chose to do nothing immediately, because we thought the Soviets would take longer to recover from the war due to the astounding number of causalities they endured. No one thought they would get nuclear weapons as soon as they did, and that stopped any thoughts of war against them.

Quote:

My point of bringing up Palin's list: it's fucking unacceptable to publish shit like that because people can, will, and have acted in response to such things. If you don't believe me, think about how many people have been persecuted and executed because they were labeled as enemies of the state. Palin's list is the same thing, except a lot more ignorant.

So if the list had checkmarks instead that would have been totally cool. <_<

kluang · 01-11-2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Palins poster was designed to point out politicians that she and her party had personal disagreements with so that they could focus on them in a civil debate.

Thats the problem. She makes politics personal. Politics is a dirty game, but when it get personal, it becomes a poisonous venom.

Quote:

She never said, "Let's go kill these guys", and any SANE person would understand that.

And any sane people who sees this

Quote:

Glenn Beck's website has a picture of him wielding a gun cycling through his home page

Quote:

marks them with motherfucking crosshairs

Quote:

Palin said "don't retreat, just reload" to opponents of healthcare reform.

would get the hint

LonelyNinja · 01-12-2011, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ask me anything

Cool story bro, but your assuming way too much. Can you prove that this gunman ever saw Palins little poster? If he didn't then it never affected his judgment at all, and Palin has nothing to do with this.

And you're assuming he never saw the poster.

Quote:

Palins poster was designed to point out politicians that she and her party had personal disagreements with so that they could focus on them in a civil debate. She never said, "Let's go kill these guys", and any SANE person would understand that. Just because this guy was insane doesn't mean that she did anything wrong, and we should have to tip toe around and watch what we say so it doesn't offend someone or send them off the deep end. That's ridiculous thinking.

A civil debate? You're kidding, right? Nutjobs like Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, etc. are constantly spouting out nonsense about ousting out Democrats and political undesirables, even hinting (not subtly, mind you) at extreme methods.

Oh, for the love of God. Palin didn't say that, you're right. No one said she did. Putting up that list, however, is quite literally sending a message with violent overtones to the American people. American people are fucking stupid and sometimes take this shit seriously, sometimes literally.

You're wrong about people shouldn't have to watch what they say. Everyone should watch what they fucking say because it can have unintended consequences, especially politicians. They're supposed to be the leaders of this country. They're supposed to set a good example. So, when they say shit like, "This group of politicians is wrong. We need to get rid of them by any means necessary" people are going to look up to them and act by their own interpretations. Unfortunately, the politicians who preach reason are drowned out by the politicians who are so caught up in their own insanity.

Quote:

It's because of the states failure to act that this incident happened.

You're Goddamn right it is, but the State's actions and laws are determined by the people, so we're at fault for creating and not fixing a broken system.

Quote:

I'm reminded of obama's famous quote. "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun".

Thank you for further solidifying my statement about gun and violent rhetoric being spouted out by politicians. I did mention right-wingers, but it applies to all parties.

Quote:

You need to read up on your history. WWII had nothing to do with ideology and camaraderie WWII was a giant power struggle. Nothing more. The Soviet Union saw that it could expand into Eastern Europe. The U.S. was making a small fortune supplying the Allies (and the Axis) before they entered the war. Even before the war was over U.S. and England knew the Soviets were going to be the next major threat, but we chose to do nothing immediately, because we thought the Soviets would take longer to recover from the war due to the astounding number of causalities they endured. No one thought they would get nuclear weapons as soon as they did, and that stopped any thoughts of war against them.

Oh, for the love of...

You said that opposite ideologies can't work together, co-habitat, etc. to achieve the same goal. In this case Palin's conservative "Family Values" vs. the gunman's liberal Marxist nonsense. I countered by saying that opposites can work together for the same goal. Don't know why you're harping on about the ulterior motives of the Western Allies.

Also, you say that World War II was a power struggle. So is American politics. War and politics are eerily similar, except one is civil while the other isn't (which is which is a whole 'nother debate). As a power struggle the World War II analogy works, too. Gunman thought that American government was expanding in the wrong direction. So did Palin/Limbaugh/Beck/Etc. So, the latter group appeals to the American people to do the heavy-lifting through charged rhetoric and bullshit. There, we have our Soviet Union (Gunman, American people) and our Western Allies (the other guys).

Quote:

So if the list had checkmarks instead that would have been totally cool. <_<

Yes, it fucking would! A check mark does not carry the violent overtones of MOTHERFUCKING CROSSHAIRS! Goddamn, do I have to make a fucking list to explain this shit to you?

**Miburo** · 01-12-2011, 01:44 PM

It's as my esteemed ridicuously asian comrade says. People of influence should choose their words and actions carefully. If they don't, then they obviously aren't great leaders and shouldn't be in positions of power or influence. That's the point. That is what is being said here. Palin and gang aren't intelligent, capable political figures.

No one is implying that she is necessarily responsible for what happened. Of course she isn't, just like I wouldn't be responsible if some dude on here decided to kick the shit out of someone because I advocate kicking the shit out of people. People are responsible for their own actions. The dude who shot people is responsible, obviously.

The point is more that she's extremely irresponsible. Jesus fuck.

ACt · 01-12-2011, 02:12 PM

I think probably the second more despicable part of this whole mess, the first obviously being the disturbed shooter, is that the whole American machine quickly went forward with "But how does this involve Sarah Palin?" I really cannot understand the infatuation with the woman, either for or against. She is an empty talking head that says the most cookie cutter of things and who's only true skill is taking insanely complex issues in the political and world stage and boiling them down to a "us vs them" debate topic, which is a most insidious and dangerous method to practice politics.

You can easily take her response today. The use of "blood libel" aside (What goes on in speech writers heads?), it is a classic conservative retort to being attacked: The media are biased (except you, Fox News <3), God, things are fine and the way they've always been, old historic reference, 911, God, I love America, don't you? Freedom!!!!

And God.

She said next to nothing that you don't learn in school and THAT'S to be a political leader? Way to not deal with the issue. But then, that's what they all do - even Obama. Which is why it is so insane to focus on this little Alaskan Mom who really has shown no reason for me to believe she should be listened to in any way.

Which goes back to my point, the problem is systemic and no one is getting it right and this issue will be dead sooner than you think without change. "god" Bless America.

kael03 · 01-12-2011, 02:39 PM

Palin is one of the main reasons I voted for Obama. After listening to her "artfully" dodge questions like "what do you read?" for weeks on end, I didn't want that bitch anywhere near the White House. Especially with McCain being about the same age as the dinosaurs. Personally, I think both major parties are shit. They can't agree with each other, even though their long-term goal is the same: the welfare of the nation.

**Miburo** · 01-12-2011, 03:07 PM

I actually think politics is interesting, but I honestly don't keep up with politics much at all because all the politicians are just so fucking stupid. And the few that aren't can't do shit because of how shit works. Whole mess is just frustating and retarded, so I usually don't bother. I'm just waiting till the inevitable zombie apocalypse so I can rule my zombie haven the way shit should be run.

And yeah, I wouldn't bring up Palin or anyone when talking about how these poor people got shot by some faggot, personally. But I do see how this incident would incite a discussion about how horrible of a political figure she is. Which I think is what happened here.

Numinous · 01-12-2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Palin is one of the main reasons I voted for Obama. After listening to her "artfully" dodge questions like "what do you read?" for weeks on end, I didn't want that bitch anywhere near the White House.

What? Couldn't she throw away "Hamlet", "Frankenstein" or "Where the Wild Things Are" to pretend she actually knows something about literature?

Quote:

specially with McCain being about the same age and the dinosaurs.

No! Trilobites were already calling him Grandpa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

Personally, I think both major parties are shit. They can't agree with each other, even though their long-term goal is the same: the welfare of the nation.

That's not an exclusive to the US, I'm afraid. Even countries with 5 major political parties like mine are suffering from the constant (and useless) bickering. Politics nowadays are more geared towards undermining whoever is opposing to get a better a chance to be in power next election rather than presenting constructive criticisms and viable alternatives. And, to boot, the media aren't doing any good to the situation either (like Fox News, perhaps the guiltiest of them all).

01-10-2011, 09:34 PM	#16
Axiom [something clever] Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 74 Thanks: 489 Thanked 824 Times in 305 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage I have iron lungs like Kallark. It may be insufficient still, but one can hope.

01-10-2011, 11:04 PM	#19
Axiom [something clever] Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 74 Thanks: 489 Thanked 824 Times in 305 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage I always like the quote myself as well. Unfortunately I'm forced to agree with it. People often seem to take the the very first opinion they hear on a subject as an undeniable truth. I was actually messing with my cousin a couple days ago about one of those conspiracy videos floating around the internet. He watched it, and immediately accepted everything it said. Making no attempt to learn the facts of his own accord, or verify its content and claims there of. A terrible thing for sure.

01-10-2011, 11:16 PM	#20
ask me anything Simply AMAzing Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Impel Down Posts: 3,050 Thanks: 8,809 Thanked 3,360 Times in 1,496 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage WTF?! Some of you people are making the most asinine claims. How exactly does Sarah Palin in any way have anything to do with this??? If you would do a little research before you talk you would know this guy has been planning to kill this congresswoman ever since 2007!!! That's before anybody (outside of alaska) even knew who Sarah Palin was. Come on people. This guy is an extreme left wing, atheist, liberal. Sarah Palin, is an extreme right wing, christian, conservative. Their exact opposites of one another, yet they have (supposedly) similar enough views that she "inspired" him to do what he did. Fail logic is fail. __________________

01-12-2011, 01:44 PM	#26
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage It's as my esteemed ridicuously asian comrade says. People of influence should choose their words and actions carefully. If they don't, then they obviously aren't great leaders and shouldn't be in positions of power or influence. That's the point. That is what is being said here. Palin and gang aren't intelligent, capable political figures. No one is implying that she is necessarily responsible for what happened. Of course she isn't, just like I wouldn't be responsible if some dude on here decided to kick the shit out of someone because I advocate kicking the shit out of people. People are responsible for their own actions. The dude who shot people is responsible, obviously. The point is more that she's extremely irresponsible. Jesus fuck.

01-12-2011, 02:12 PM	#27
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,249 Thanks: 5,321 Thanked 18,674 Times in 4,842 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage I think probably the second more despicable part of this whole mess, the first obviously being the disturbed shooter, is that the whole American machine quickly went forward with "But how does this involve Sarah Palin?" I really cannot understand the infatuation with the woman, either for or against. She is an empty talking head that says the most cookie cutter of things and who's only true skill is taking insanely complex issues in the political and world stage and boiling them down to a "us vs them" debate topic, which is a most insidious and dangerous method to practice politics. You can easily take her response today. The use of "blood libel" aside (What goes on in speech writers heads?), it is a classic conservative retort to being attacked: The media are biased (except you, Fox News <3), God, things are fine and the way they've always been, old historic reference, 911, God, I love America, don't you? Freedom!!!! And God. She said next to nothing that you don't learn in school and THAT'S to be a political leader? Way to not deal with the issue. But then, that's what they all do - even Obama. Which is why it is so insane to focus on this little Alaskan Mom who really has shown no reason for me to believe she should be listened to in any way. Which goes back to my point, the problem is systemic and no one is getting it right and this issue will be dead sooner than you think without change. "god" Bless America.

01-12-2011, 02:39 PM	#28
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,600 Thanks: 4,838 Thanked 8,530 Times in 3,780 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage Palin is one of the main reasons I voted for Obama. After listening to her "artfully" dodge questions like "what do you read?" for weeks on end, I didn't want that bitch anywhere near the White House. Especially with McCain being about the same age as the dinosaurs. Personally, I think both major parties are shit. They can't agree with each other, even though their long-term goal is the same: the welfare of the nation. Last edited by kael03; 01-12-2011 at 02:44 PM.

01-12-2011, 03:07 PM	#29
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, 6 killed in rampage I actually think politics is interesting, but I honestly don't keep up with politics much at all because all the politicians are just so fucking stupid. And the few that aren't can't do shit because of how shit works. Whole mess is just frustating and retarded, so I usually don't bother. I'm just waiting till the inevitable zombie apocalypse so I can rule my zombie haven the way shit should be run. And yeah, I wouldn't bring up Palin or anyone when talking about how these poor people got shot by some faggot, personally. But I do see how this incident would incite a discussion about how horrible of a political figure she is. Which I think is what happened here.

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