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Old 04-28-2011, 01:21 AM   #16
kael03
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Re: The Sony debacle.

They do, but they don't. Their methods are tough to describe. They'll announce their assaults and what to do to get them to stop, but if one of their members is discovered, that person is removed from the group immediately. I just find their denial too conveniently timed to not have some involvement in the latest outage.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:30 AM   #17
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Okay. Sure, yeah, not much to ask for I suppose. I wasn't being argumentative or anything with my post.

Just saying eh, not something I'm even slightly upset about. I can totally see them not being sure what exactly was going on in the beginning there. And I can totally see why they would withhold some info. You figure, from a company standpoint, saying you were hacked or attacked would be bad for business and might cause unnecessary worry for your consumers. So if you can verify that no info was obtained and fix it quick without making people worry and shit, that would probably be the smart thing to do. Didn't work out that way for them, it seems. So they admitted that there was an attack and a possibility that personal info was obtained.

So yeah, they could have possibly been more forthcoming with info in the beginning there. But I can see why they wouldn't. A courtesy memo isn't much to ask for, but it's not something that I'm going to get upset about not getting right away either. Had I known a few days earlier I'd have done the same thing I did when I found out about it a few days later: Nothing.

Only thing I'm slightly upset about is not being able to stream some netflix to my TV, and not being able to play some co-op with my bro.
There's really no reason to withhold the information. At least, it would have been better to admit the possibility of an attack as opposed to saying absolutely nothing for several days.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:03 AM   #18
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal View Post
There's really no reason to withhold the information. At least, it would have been better to admit the possibility of an attack as opposed to saying absolutely nothing for several days.
If they took the servers down and said absolutely nothing for a few days, then yeah, totally agree. I wasn't following the thing real closely when it happened or anything. So if that's what happened then I can see why that would upset people.

If you mean they didn't say "Yo guys, it's within the realm of possibilities that your credit card info and shit might have been taken" right away, then I can see why they wouldn't do that. Why scare people and shit if you're not sure the attack had to potential of comprising that info? Again, I dunno exactly how DDoS attacks work, but I think that they usually don't involve stealing information. So it's completely understandable that they didn't mention it if that's the case. If I was in their shoes I probably wouldn't mention it either. Especially if I thought I'd be able to get shit up and running decently quick at the time.

If they said the servers are down and didn't give the reason "because we were hacked/attacked" then that's a pretty baby thing for anyone to get upset about. If I know the shit is down and they're working on getting back up then I've got all the information I need. Knowing the real 'why' isn't going to change anything for me. So getting upset because I don't know the real reason why doesn't make any sense to me. That's just nitpicky crap. I've already got a good reason to be upset: I can't use my shit. Admittedly, I dunno why they wouldn't say they think it's a DoS attack since it's better to be a victim than to be incompetent, I would think. Maybe they didn't want to publicly announce that whoever is fucking up their shit was successful, or they really weren't positive it was caused by an outside source. I dunno.

I'm not being a sony fanboy or whatever here. It's just that I go to other sites and people are flipping shit like retards. Sony was attacked. They're a victim too. And they haven't handled the situation outrageously poorly or anything from what I can tell. It's entirely believable that they didn't have a reason to suspect any personal info was potentially compromised when the shit happened. And it really doesn't matter at all what the initial reason they gave for shutting the servers down was. The end result would be exactly the same no matter what the reason: You wouldn't be able to use your PSN until they fix shit and put that shit back up. Whether it was because of haxx0rz or because someone spilled coffee on the mothership computer thing. Doesn't really matter.

Unless I'm mistaken about how this computer shit works, which is possible. Or if Sony had all my info in plain non-encrypted text, or had extremely poor defenses, or some shit like that. Then yeah, that would piss me off a bit. Otherwise I'm just slightly annoyed that I can't use my shit. And if some thieves stole my info, then I'm slightly upset at the thieves. I think that's a perfectly rational assessment of things.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:52 AM   #19
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
If they took the servers down and said absolutely nothing for a few days, then yeah, totally agree. I wasn't following the thing real closely when it happened or anything. So if that's what happened then I can see why that would upset people.
Yeah, pretty much this. When I turned on my PS3 that day I got "An error has occurred. You have been signed out of the Playstation Network." When I tried to log back in, it told me "The Playstation Network is currently unavailable." A few days later, about the time news was out, that message was changed to "The Playstation Network is currently down for maintenance."

So yeah, the servers were down with no reason given for a while.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:17 AM   #20
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Mibs, when they took the servers down they gave no information at all. Everyone was kept in the dark about it. Not even a "we're experiencing technical difficulties" message. This went on for days with no answer and then they suddenly drop a bombshell of "our servers have been compromised, we don't know the full extent of it but we know that our customers usernames/passwords, birthdays, e-mail and postal addresses have been compromised and there is a possibility that credit cards have been compromised.". Sony has a good security system set up, but they weren't using it as extensively as they should have for several million people's information, especially with the Anonymous attacks over the past month.

By the way, here is Anonymous' message to Sony regarding the attacks on the servers.

That being said, a DDoS attack is when a hacker, or group of hackers, pings a server/field of servers and overwhelms them to the point the servers shut down to avoid damage. A ping is a signal sent to the target that the target must decode and process. Kinda like when a cable company checks to see if your cable box or modem is working properly. DDoSing is sending multiple pings at the same time in a rapid fire manner. The servers, on top of handling normal pings from the clients (players) can't handle the massive influx of signals and will shut down temporarily. When they're brought back up, the hackers (Anonymous) will do the attack again. Thus the acronym DDoS, or Distributed Denial of Service. As I mentioned, they did this to the former Egyptian government and managed to shut down government websites that stayed down until Muburak's resignation.

They also DDoS'd, prank called, and black faxed (sent faxes that were solid black sheets to kill the fax machine's ink) the Church of Scientology back in 2008 for removing a leaked video from youtube that had Tom Cruise saying that scientologists would be the only ones that would help at the scene of a car crash; that Scientologists were the world's authority on reforming criminals and getting people off drugs, among other things. The video Anonymous sent is actually pretty cool.

Now that you have an idea of what DDoSing is, what happened this time wasn't DDoS. This latest outage is due to someone actually breaking through Sony's security about their user database and downloading information of all Sony's customers on the PSN. While it's not Anonymous' style (they don't try to steal from people, just harass), the timing is too convenient with their attacks on Sony. They're goal was to shut Sony's PSN system down to get Sony to stop the legal action against geohot, a hacker that "jailbroke" the ps3 (bypassed the security in his ps3 to unlock the ability for it to be used as a computer again) then posted the method online for others to jailbreak their systems.

Last edited by kael03; 04-28-2011 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:44 AM   #21
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Wow, I'm really out of the loop, didn't know that anon was "attacking" sony.
Anyways, here's some news.

I dont think anon is at fault for the info stealing. Also, I don't know that much about cracking, and I don't know exactly what anon was DDOSing, but maybe the DDOSing produced an extra vulnerability that was used by those that cracked Sony's security, which would explain the "coincidence".
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Quotes for noobs (learn how to break up a quote)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey, how do you break it up please and if your not willingly to tell me, then please DONT offer me no advice in future
So you can post the second bit and i shouldnt be allowed to if i dont tell you? Why be so rude?

Anyways, here is a quotes for noobs guide


1. A basic quote

[*QUOTE][*/QUOTE]

(the * need to be removed for it to work, I put them in so you can see the text) is a basic quote that just wraps something in a quote without saying who quoted it who quoted so

[*QUOTE]this is a quote[*/QUOTE] without any * would look like
Quote:
this is a quote

Edit: there is a button for this, it looks like a speech bubble. If you select text and then press the button the selected text will automatically be wrapped with the quote tag


2. A quote that says who said it

[*QUOTE=who said it][*/QUOTE] this adds who said the post, manually putting that there can be useful when quoting something external. Example:

[*QUOTE=Mangastream]Remember all you sexy bastards out there, Naruto, Bleach, OP, FT, etc. all on break this week. Feel free to take your rage out on us[*/QUOTE] without any * would look like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangastream
Remember all you sexy bastards out there, Naruto, Bleach, OP, FT, etc. all on break this week. Feel free to take your rage out on us
3. A quote that says who said it and links to the post where it was said

[*QUOTE=who said it;X][*/QUOTE]

Where X is the post number.

For the post that i originally quoted it would look like this

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey, how do you break it up please and if your not willingly to tell me, then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]

That is what you get when you press the quote button.

4. Breaking up a quote

Now that you know how quotes work it all boils down to preference, how you want it to look like and how you want to do it.

One way of doing it is copying the latter part of the original quote [*/QUOTE] and then pasting it after each section you break up, write your reply, choose the text you want then paste it after that portion, repeat till you finish the go back and copy then paste the first part of the text at the beginning of each portion of text. Of course you can immediately copy and paste both parts of a poste so that you dont forget one in the end.

The end result would be something like this

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey,[*/QUOTE]
My reply 1
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164] how do you break it up please[*/QUOTE]
my reply 2
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]and if your not willingly to tell me, [*/QUOTE]
my reply 3
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]
my reply 4



Which without any * would look like

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey,
My reply 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
how do you break it up please
my reply 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
and if your not willingly to tell me,
my reply 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
then please DONT offer me no advice in future
my reply 4


Another way of doing it would be to cut and paste the second part of the quote tag after the first section of text you want to seperate then write your reply select the second part and hit he quote button (it looks like a text bubble),if you do that without anything else the end result would be

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey,[*/QUOTE]
My reply 1
[*QUOTE] how do you break it up please[*/QUOTE]
my reply 2
[*QUOTE]and if your not willingly to tell me, [*/QUOTE]
my reply 3
[*QUOTE]then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]
my reply 4

Which would look like

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey,
My reply 1
Quote:
how do you break it up please
my reply 2
Quote:
and if your not willingly to tell me,
my reply 3
Quote:
then please DONT offer me no advice in future
my reply 4

To make it like the previous example (which wpuld be preferred, though not necessary ) copy the part that says who posted with the link to the post and paste it accordingly to the proper part in each first half of each quote tag. In my I would copy =minato uchiha;2118164 and paste it where the # is
[*QUOTE#] to get [*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164] (of course with the * removed)


Of course you can use any other method you like to get to the end result, but now that you know what the end rwsult looks like I think there shouldnt be any problems
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:18 AM   #22
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Could be someone from anonymous though, using their DDoS attack as a cover to attack while anon gets the whole blame.
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:59 AM   #23
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Re: The Sony debacle.

I still wouldnt blame anon for that
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Quotes for noobs (learn how to break up a quote)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey, how do you break it up please and if your not willingly to tell me, then please DONT offer me no advice in future
So you can post the second bit and i shouldnt be allowed to if i dont tell you? Why be so rude?

Anyways, here is a quotes for noobs guide


1. A basic quote

[*QUOTE][*/QUOTE]

(the * need to be removed for it to work, I put them in so you can see the text) is a basic quote that just wraps something in a quote without saying who quoted it who quoted so

[*QUOTE]this is a quote[*/QUOTE] without any * would look like
Quote:
this is a quote

Edit: there is a button for this, it looks like a speech bubble. If you select text and then press the button the selected text will automatically be wrapped with the quote tag


2. A quote that says who said it

[*QUOTE=who said it][*/QUOTE] this adds who said the post, manually putting that there can be useful when quoting something external. Example:

[*QUOTE=Mangastream]Remember all you sexy bastards out there, Naruto, Bleach, OP, FT, etc. all on break this week. Feel free to take your rage out on us[*/QUOTE] without any * would look like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangastream
Remember all you sexy bastards out there, Naruto, Bleach, OP, FT, etc. all on break this week. Feel free to take your rage out on us
3. A quote that says who said it and links to the post where it was said

[*QUOTE=who said it;X][*/QUOTE]

Where X is the post number.

For the post that i originally quoted it would look like this

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey, how do you break it up please and if your not willingly to tell me, then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]

That is what you get when you press the quote button.

4. Breaking up a quote

Now that you know how quotes work it all boils down to preference, how you want it to look like and how you want to do it.

One way of doing it is copying the latter part of the original quote [*/QUOTE] and then pasting it after each section you break up, write your reply, choose the text you want then paste it after that portion, repeat till you finish the go back and copy then paste the first part of the text at the beginning of each portion of text. Of course you can immediately copy and paste both parts of a poste so that you dont forget one in the end.

The end result would be something like this

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey,[*/QUOTE]
My reply 1
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164] how do you break it up please[*/QUOTE]
my reply 2
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]and if your not willingly to tell me, [*/QUOTE]
my reply 3
[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]
my reply 4



Which without any * would look like

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey,
My reply 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
how do you break it up please
my reply 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
and if your not willingly to tell me,
my reply 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
then please DONT offer me no advice in future
my reply 4


Another way of doing it would be to cut and paste the second part of the quote tag after the first section of text you want to seperate then write your reply select the second part and hit he quote button (it looks like a text bubble),if you do that without anything else the end result would be

[*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164]Ok Stubborn donkey,[*/QUOTE]
My reply 1
[*QUOTE] how do you break it up please[*/QUOTE]
my reply 2
[*QUOTE]and if your not willingly to tell me, [*/QUOTE]
my reply 3
[*QUOTE]then please DONT offer me no advice in future[*/QUOTE]
my reply 4

Which would look like

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok Stubborn donkey,
My reply 1
Quote:
how do you break it up please
my reply 2
Quote:
and if your not willingly to tell me,
my reply 3
Quote:
then please DONT offer me no advice in future
my reply 4

To make it like the previous example (which wpuld be preferred, though not necessary ) copy the part that says who posted with the link to the post and paste it accordingly to the proper part in each first half of each quote tag. In my I would copy =minato uchiha;2118164 and paste it where the # is
[*QUOTE#] to get [*QUOTE=minato uchiha;2118164] (of course with the * removed)


Of course you can use any other method you like to get to the end result, but now that you know what the end rwsult looks like I think there shouldnt be any problems
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:03 AM   #24
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal View Post
Yeah, pretty much this. When I turned on my PS3 that day I got "An error has occurred. You have been signed out of the Playstation Network." When I tried to log back in, it told me "The Playstation Network is currently unavailable." A few days later, about the time news was out, that message was changed to "The Playstation Network is currently down for maintenance."

So yeah, the servers were down with no reason given for a while.
Oh, okay. Yeah, I'd be pretty upset if I tried logging on and couldn't find out anything at all by checking online or some shit either. I'd like to at least know they're aware of the issue and are working on it. Not saying anything at all would make me initially think that the issue is on my end or some shit. So I totally get that. From what Axiom posted, he made it seem like they said it was a hardware issue or some shit initially, then later said it was an attack.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Mibs, when they took the servers down they gave no information at all. Everyone was kept in the dark about it. Not even a "we're experiencing technical difficulties" message. This went on for days with no answer and then they suddenly drop a bombshell of "our servers have been compromised, we don't know the full extent of it but we know that our customers usernames/passwords, birthdays, e-mail and postal addresses have been compromised and there is a possibility that credit cards have been compromised.". Sony has a good security system set up, but they weren't using it as extensively as they should have for several million people's information, especially with the Anonymous attacks over the past month.

By the way, here is Anonymous' message to Sony regarding the attacks on the servers.

That being said, a DDoS attack is when a hacker, or group of hackers, pings a server/field of servers and overwhelms them to the point the servers shut down to avoid damage. A ping is a signal sent to the target that the target must decode and process. Kinda like when a cable company checks to see if your cable box or modem is working properly. DDoSing is sending multiple pings at the same time in a rapid fire manner. The servers, on top of handling normal pings from the clients (players) can't handle the massive influx of signals and will shut down temporarily. When they're brought back up, the hackers (Anonymous) will do the attack again. Thus the acronym DDoS, or Distributed Denial of Service. As I mentioned, they did this to the former Egyptian government and managed to shut down government websites that stayed down until Muburak's resignation.

They also DDoS'd, prank called, and black faxed (sent faxes that were solid black sheets to kill the fax machine's ink) the Church of Scientology back in 2008 for removing a leaked video from youtube that had Tom Cruise saying that scientologists would be the only ones that would help at the scene of a car crash; that Scientologists were the world's authority on reforming criminals and getting people off drugs, among other things. The video Anonymous sent is actually pretty cool.

Now that you have an idea of what DDoSing is, what happened this time wasn't DDoS. This latest outage is due to someone actually breaking through Sony's security about their user database and downloading information of all Sony's customers on the PSN. While it's not Anonymous' style (they don't try to steal from people, just harass), the timing is too convenient with their attacks on Sony. They're goal was to shut Sony's PSN system down to get Sony to stop the legal action against geohot, a hacker that "jailbroke" the ps3 (bypassed the security in his ps3 to unlock the ability for it to be used as a computer again) then posted the method online for others to jailbreak their systems.
Yeah, dude. I know how to use google too. My point is that if they're getting DoS'd and shit it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything about info being potentially compromised. Because DDoS attacks usually don't involve stealing shit.

And I'm not sure you're getting how 'anon' works. They're not some hardcore organized group or anything. You can't really get 'removed,' there isn't anyone really calling the shots or anything. Some people take initiative, others follow. Or not. Pretty sure you just need to hop on the IRC channel and go with the flow to be a part of the 'hacker group.' I dunno if you're just wikipedia'ing your info on them, but the whole membership section is referring to how if you reveal your idenity then you're not anonymous. It's more of a play on words using the definiton, not some sort of membership protocol.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:24 AM   #25
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Yeah, dude. I know how to use google too. My point is that if they're getting DoS'd and shit it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything about info being potentially compromised. Because DDoS attacks usually don't involve stealing shit.
No, but it does beg the question why they didn't bother upping the security on their user database when Anonymous announced they had access to the PSN login servers. Or did you not watch the 2 and a half min video of Anonymous explaining what they're doing to Sony?

Quote:
And I'm not sure you're getting how 'anon' works. They're not some hardcore organized group or anything. You can't really get 'removed,' there isn't anyone really calling the shots or anything. Some people take initiative, others follow. Or not. Pretty sure you just need to hop on the IRC channel and go with the flow to be a part of the 'hacker group.' I dunno if you're just wikipedia'ing your info on them, but the whole membership section is referring to how if you reveal your idenity then you're not anonymous. It's more of a play on words using the definiton, not some sort of membership protocol.
Actually, they are an organized group. They do have a leadership group that authorizes these attacks. Said leadership group was the ones who made the denial of the most recent attack on the PSN servers(scroll down to the paragraph next to the ps3 picture). They say that different people work with the different operations, but it's the same people running the show (AnonOps) and several former members can attest to it (some have). Membership to the group is open to get in, this is true. But you have to remain "Anonymous" to stay in, once your discovered, you're out.

Last edited by kael03; 04-28-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:30 AM   #26
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Then refer to them as "AnonOps". Anonymous is something different. Mibs is right in what he said.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:33 AM   #27
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Not really. Again, AnonOps is the leadership of the entire Anonymous group. They set the operations in motion.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:52 AM   #28
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
No, but it does beg the question why they didn't bother upping the security on their user database when Anonymous announced they had access to the PSN login servers. Or did you not watch the 2 and a half min video of Anonymous explaining what they're doing to Sony?
How do you know they didn't? Do you know what precautions they took? Or the scale of the attack? We're not in any position to judge their competence, since we don't have enough information to do so.

I could be a trained martial artist and carry a gun and have a bodyguard or two, and most would believe that I have taken proper precautions against a possible attack on the street. Actually, most would consider that total overkill. But if a group of fully equipped navy seals or some shit swarm me I'm still going to get my shit ruined.

Also, if we're going just by that video for some reason, the dude who made it said that PSN wasn't a target since they don't want to target the players. You sure you watched it? =p


Quote:
Actually, they are an organized group. They do have a leadership group that authorizes these attacks. Said leadership group was the ones who made the denial of the most recent attack on the PSN servers(scroll down to the paragraph next to the ps3 picture). They say that different people work with the different operations, but it's the same people running the show (AnonOps) and several former members can attest to it (some have). Membership to the group is open to get in, this is true. But you have to remain "Anonymous" to stay in, once your discovered, you're out.
Anonops =/= Anonymous.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:04 PM   #29
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
How do you know they didn't? Do you know what procautions they took? Or the scale of the attack? We're not in any position to judge their competence, since we don't have enough information to do so.
The fact that their database was compromised says they weren't adequately secured. Plus the fact that now they're restructuring their entire system.

Quote:
Also, if we're going just by that video for some reason, the dude who made it said that PSN wasn't a target since they don't want to target the players. You sure you watched it? =p
The part of "but we do have access to it" is what I was referring to. They sent that video out before this recent attack. Sony knew they had access to the databanks, even if they were claiming they weren't attacking the players. They should've taken precautions against any attacks back when Anonymous launched this operation.


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Anonops =/= Anonymous.
AnonOps = Anonymous leader core. Anonymous = AnonOps + Anons. So yes, AnonOps = Anonymous.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:19 PM   #30
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Re: The Sony debacle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
The fact that their database was compromised says they weren't adequately secured. Plus the fact that now they're restructuring their entire system.
That's stupid. I guess if someone breaks into your house then you weren't adequately secured, right? Doesn't matter what precautions you took. If you entire house is encased in 20 feet of concrete and sealed with a 10 foot think solid metal safe-type door. The fact that someone got in means you didn't have adequate protection against theft. You're no different than a guy who leaves his front door wide open in that regard.

Quote:
The part of "but we do have access to it" is what I was referring to. They sent that video out before this recent attack. Sony knew they had access to the databanks, even if they were claiming they weren't attacking the players. They should've taken precautions against any attacks back when Anonymous launched this operation.
I'm no genius when it comes to this shit, but I don't interpret someone saying they are capable of attacking login servers as them saying they have the ability to steal personal information.

Because know who else has access to PSN login servers? Me. I connect with them everytime I log on PSN.

Quote:
AnonOps = Anonymous leader core. Anonymous = AnonOps + Anons. So yes, AnonOps = Anonymous.
Where are you getting this shit?
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