The Sony debacle. - Page 2

kael03 · 04-28-2011, 01:21 AM

They do, but they don't. Their methods are tough to describe. They'll announce their assaults and what to do to get them to stop, but if one of their members is discovered, that person is removed from the group immediately. I just find their denial too conveniently timed to not have some involvement in the latest outage.

**Mal** · 04-28-2011, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

Okay. Sure, yeah, not much to ask for I suppose. I wasn't being argumentative or anything with my post.

Just saying eh, not something I'm even slightly upset about. I can totally see them not being sure what exactly was going on in the beginning there. And I can totally see why they would withhold some info. You figure, from a company standpoint, saying you were hacked or attacked would be bad for business and might cause unnecessary worry for your consumers. So if you can verify that no info was obtained and fix it quick without making people worry and shit, that would probably be the smart thing to do. Didn't work out that way for them, it seems. So they admitted that there was an attack and a possibility that personal info was obtained.

So yeah, they could have possibly been more forthcoming with info in the beginning there. But I can see why they wouldn't. A courtesy memo isn't much to ask for, but it's not something that I'm going to get upset about not getting right away either. Had I known a few days earlier I'd have done the same thing I did when I found out about it a few days later: Nothing.

Only thing I'm slightly upset about is not being able to stream some netflix to my TV, and not being able to play some co-op with my bro.

There's really no reason to withhold the information. At least, it would have been better to admit the possibility of an attack as opposed to saying absolutely nothing for several days.

**Miburo** · 04-28-2011, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal

There's really no reason to withhold the information. At least, it would have been better to admit the possibility of an attack as opposed to saying absolutely nothing for several days.

If they took the servers down and said absolutely nothing for a few days, then yeah, totally agree. I wasn't following the thing real closely when it happened or anything. So if that's what happened then I can see why that would upset people.

If you mean they didn't say "Yo guys, it's within the realm of possibilities that your credit card info and shit might have been taken" right away, then I can see why they wouldn't do that. Why scare people and shit if you're not sure the attack had to potential of comprising that info? Again, I dunno exactly how DDoS attacks work, but I think that they usually don't involve stealing information. So it's completely understandable that they didn't mention it if that's the case. If I was in their shoes I probably wouldn't mention it either. Especially if I thought I'd be able to get shit up and running decently quick at the time.

If they said the servers are down and didn't give the reason "because we were hacked/attacked" then that's a pretty baby thing for anyone to get upset about. If I know the shit is down and they're working on getting back up then I've got all the information I need. Knowing the real 'why' isn't going to change anything for me. So getting upset because I don't know the real reason why doesn't make any sense to me. That's just nitpicky crap. I've already got a good reason to be upset: I can't use my shit. Admittedly, I dunno why they wouldn't say they think it's a DoS attack since it's better to be a victim than to be incompetent, I would think. Maybe they didn't want to publicly announce that whoever is fucking up their shit was successful, or they really weren't positive it was caused by an outside source. I dunno.

I'm not being a sony fanboy or whatever here. It's just that I go to other sites and people are flipping shit like retards. Sony was attacked. They're a victim too. And they haven't handled the situation outrageously poorly or anything from what I can tell. It's entirely believable that they didn't have a reason to suspect any personal info was potentially compromised when the shit happened. And it really doesn't matter at all what the initial reason they gave for shutting the servers down was. The end result would be exactly the same no matter what the reason: You wouldn't be able to use your PSN until they fix shit and put that shit back up. Whether it was because of haxx0rz or because someone spilled coffee on the mothership computer thing. Doesn't really matter.

Unless I'm mistaken about how this computer shit works, which is possible. Or if Sony had all my info in plain non-encrypted text, or had extremely poor defenses, or some shit like that. Then yeah, that would piss me off a bit. Otherwise I'm just slightly annoyed that I can't use my shit. And if some thieves stole my info, then I'm slightly upset at the thieves. I think that's a perfectly rational assessment of things.

**Mal** · 04-28-2011, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

If they took the servers down and said absolutely nothing for a few days, then yeah, totally agree. I wasn't following the thing real closely when it happened or anything. So if that's what happened then I can see why that would upset people.

Yeah, pretty much this. When I turned on my PS3 that day I got "An error has occurred. You have been signed out of the Playstation Network." When I tried to log back in, it told me "The Playstation Network is currently unavailable." A few days later, about the time news was out, that message was changed to "The Playstation Network is currently down for maintenance."

So yeah, the servers were down with no reason given for a while.

kael03 · 04-28-2011, 04:17 AM

Mibs, when they took the servers down they gave no information at all. Everyone was kept in the dark about it. Not even a "we're experiencing technical difficulties" message. This went on for days with no answer and then they suddenly drop a bombshell of "our servers have been compromised, we don't know the full extent of it but we know that our customers usernames/passwords, birthdays, e-mail and postal addresses have been compromised and there is a possibility that credit cards have been compromised.". Sony has a good security system set up, but they weren't using it as extensively as they should have for several million people's information, especially with the Anonymous attacks over the past month.

By the way, here is Anonymous' message to Sony regarding the attacks on the servers.

That being said, a DDoS attack is when a hacker, or group of hackers, pings a server/field of servers and overwhelms them to the point the servers shut down to avoid damage. A ping is a signal sent to the target that the target must decode and process. Kinda like when a cable company checks to see if your cable box or modem is working properly. DDoSing is sending multiple pings at the same time in a rapid fire manner. The servers, on top of handling normal pings from the clients (players) can't handle the massive influx of signals and will shut down temporarily. When they're brought back up, the hackers (Anonymous) will do the attack again. Thus the acronym DDoS, or Distributed Denial of Service. As I mentioned, they did this to the former Egyptian government and managed to shut down government websites that stayed down until Muburak's resignation.

They also DDoS'd, prank called, and black faxed (sent faxes that were solid black sheets to kill the fax machine's ink) the Church of Scientology back in 2008 for removing a leaked video from youtube that had Tom Cruise saying that scientologists would be the only ones that would help at the scene of a car crash; that Scientologists were the world's authority on reforming criminals and getting people off drugs, among other things. The video Anonymous sent is actually pretty cool.

Now that you have an idea of what DDoSing is, what happened this time wasn't DDoS. This latest outage is due to someone actually breaking through Sony's security about their user database and downloading information of all Sony's customers on the PSN. While it's not Anonymous' style (they don't try to steal from people, just harass), the timing is too convenient with their attacks on Sony. They're goal was to shut Sony's PSN system down to get Sony to stop the legal action against geohot, a hacker that "jailbroke" the ps3 (bypassed the security in his ps3 to unlock the ability for it to be used as a computer again) then posted the method online for others to jailbreak their systems.

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-28-2011, 06:44 AM

Wow, I'm really out of the loop, didn't know that anon was "attacking" sony.
Anyways, here's some news.

I dont think anon is at fault for the info stealing. Also, I don't know that much about cracking, and I don't know exactly what anon was DDOSing, but maybe the DDOSing produced an extra vulnerability that was used by those that cracked Sony's security, which would explain the "coincidence".

manta · 04-28-2011, 08:18 AM

Could be someone from anonymous though, using their DDoS attack as a cover to attack while anon gets the whole blame.

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-28-2011, 08:59 AM

I still wouldnt blame anon for that

**Miburo** · 04-28-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal

Yeah, pretty much this. When I turned on my PS3 that day I got "An error has occurred. You have been signed out of the Playstation Network." When I tried to log back in, it told me "The Playstation Network is currently unavailable." A few days later, about the time news was out, that message was changed to "The Playstation Network is currently down for maintenance."

So yeah, the servers were down with no reason given for a while.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I'd be pretty upset if I tried logging on and couldn't find out anything at all by checking online or some shit either. I'd like to at least know they're aware of the issue and are working on it. Not saying anything at all would make me initially think that the issue is on my end or some shit. So I totally get that. From what Axiom posted, he made it seem like they said it was a hardware issue or some shit initially, then later said it was an attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

Mibs, when they took the servers down they gave no information at all. Everyone was kept in the dark about it. Not even a "we're experiencing technical difficulties" message. This went on for days with no answer and then they suddenly drop a bombshell of "our servers have been compromised, we don't know the full extent of it but we know that our customers usernames/passwords, birthdays, e-mail and postal addresses have been compromised and there is a possibility that credit cards have been compromised.". Sony has a good security system set up, but they weren't using it as extensively as they should have for several million people's information, especially with the Anonymous attacks over the past month.

By the way, here is Anonymous' message to Sony regarding the attacks on the servers.

That being said, a DDoS attack is when a hacker, or group of hackers, pings a server/field of servers and overwhelms them to the point the servers shut down to avoid damage. A ping is a signal sent to the target that the target must decode and process. Kinda like when a cable company checks to see if your cable box or modem is working properly. DDoSing is sending multiple pings at the same time in a rapid fire manner. The servers, on top of handling normal pings from the clients (players) can't handle the massive influx of signals and will shut down temporarily. When they're brought back up, the hackers (Anonymous) will do the attack again. Thus the acronym DDoS, or Distributed Denial of Service. As I mentioned, they did this to the former Egyptian government and managed to shut down government websites that stayed down until Muburak's resignation.

They also DDoS'd, prank called, and black faxed (sent faxes that were solid black sheets to kill the fax machine's ink) the Church of Scientology back in 2008 for removing a leaked video from youtube that had Tom Cruise saying that scientologists would be the only ones that would help at the scene of a car crash; that Scientologists were the world's authority on reforming criminals and getting people off drugs, among other things. The video Anonymous sent is actually pretty cool.

Now that you have an idea of what DDoSing is, what happened this time wasn't DDoS. This latest outage is due to someone actually breaking through Sony's security about their user database and downloading information of all Sony's customers on the PSN. While it's not Anonymous' style (they don't try to steal from people, just harass), the timing is too convenient with their attacks on Sony. They're goal was to shut Sony's PSN system down to get Sony to stop the legal action against geohot, a hacker that "jailbroke" the ps3 (bypassed the security in his ps3 to unlock the ability for it to be used as a computer again) then posted the method online for others to jailbreak their systems.

Yeah, dude. I know how to use google too. My point is that if they're getting DoS'd and shit it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything about info being potentially compromised. Because DDoS attacks usually don't involve stealing shit.

And I'm not sure you're getting how 'anon' works. They're not some hardcore organized group or anything. You can't really get 'removed,' there isn't anyone really calling the shots or anything. Some people take initiative, others follow. Or not. Pretty sure you just need to hop on the IRC channel and go with the flow to be a part of the 'hacker group.' I dunno if you're just wikipedia'ing your info on them, but the whole membership section is referring to how if you reveal your idenity then you're not anonymous. It's more of a play on words using the definiton, not some sort of membership protocol.

kael03 · 04-28-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

Yeah, dude. I know how to use google too. My point is that if they're getting DoS'd and shit it makes sense that they wouldn't say anything about info being potentially compromised. Because DDoS attacks usually don't involve stealing shit.

No, but it does beg the question why they didn't bother upping the security on their user database when Anonymous announced they had access to the PSN login servers. Or did you not watch the 2 and a half min video of Anonymous explaining what they're doing to Sony?

Quote:

And I'm not sure you're getting how 'anon' works. They're not some hardcore organized group or anything. You can't really get 'removed,' there isn't anyone really calling the shots or anything. Some people take initiative, others follow. Or not. Pretty sure you just need to hop on the IRC channel and go with the flow to be a part of the 'hacker group.' I dunno if you're just wikipedia'ing your info on them, but the whole membership section is referring to how if you reveal your idenity then you're not anonymous. It's more of a play on words using the definiton, not some sort of membership protocol.

Actually, they are an organized group. They do have a leadership group that authorizes these attacks. Said leadership group was the ones who made the denial of the most recent attack on the PSN servers(scroll down to the paragraph next to the ps3 picture). They say that different people work with the different operations, but it's the same people running the show (AnonOps) and several former members can attest to it (some have). Membership to the group is open to get in, this is true. But you have to remain "Anonymous" to stay in, once your discovered, you're out.

Jaxon · 04-28-2011, 11:30 AM

Then refer to them as "AnonOps". Anonymous is something different. Mibs is right in what he said.

kael03 · 04-28-2011, 11:33 AM

Not really. Again, AnonOps is the leadership of the entire Anonymous group. They set the operations in motion.

**Miburo** · 04-28-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

No, but it does beg the question why they didn't bother upping the security on their user database when Anonymous announced they had access to the PSN login servers. Or did you not watch the 2 and a half min video of Anonymous explaining what they're doing to Sony?

How do you know they didn't? Do you know what precautions they took? Or the scale of the attack? We're not in any position to judge their competence, since we don't have enough information to do so.

I could be a trained martial artist and carry a gun and have a bodyguard or two, and most would believe that I have taken proper precautions against a possible attack on the street. Actually, most would consider that total overkill. But if a group of fully equipped navy seals or some shit swarm me I'm still going to get my shit ruined.

Also, if we're going just by that video for some reason, the dude who made it said that PSN wasn't a target since they don't want to target the players. You sure you watched it? =p

Quote:

Actually, they are an organized group. They do have a leadership group that authorizes these attacks. Said leadership group was the ones who made the denial of the most recent attack on the PSN servers(scroll down to the paragraph next to the ps3 picture). They say that different people work with the different operations, but it's the same people running the show (AnonOps) and several former members can attest to it (some have). Membership to the group is open to get in, this is true. But you have to remain "Anonymous" to stay in, once your discovered, you're out.

Anonops =/= Anonymous.

kael03 · 04-28-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

How do you know they didn't? Do you know what procautions they took? Or the scale of the attack? We're not in any position to judge their competence, since we don't have enough information to do so.

The fact that their database was compromised says they weren't adequately secured. Plus the fact that now they're restructuring their entire system.

Quote:

Also, if we're going just by that video for some reason, the dude who made it said that PSN wasn't a target since they don't want to target the players. You sure you watched it? =p

The part of "but we do have access to it" is what I was referring to. They sent that video out before this recent attack. Sony knew they had access to the databanks, even if they were claiming they weren't attacking the players. They should've taken precautions against any attacks back when Anonymous launched this operation.

Quote:

Anonops =/= Anonymous.

AnonOps = Anonymous leader core. Anonymous = AnonOps + Anons. So yes, AnonOps = Anonymous.

**Miburo** · 04-28-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

The fact that their database was compromised says they weren't adequately secured. Plus the fact that now they're restructuring their entire system.

That's stupid. I guess if someone breaks into your house then you weren't adequately secured, right? Doesn't matter what precautions you took. If you entire house is encased in 20 feet of concrete and sealed with a 10 foot think solid metal safe-type door. The fact that someone got in means you didn't have adequate protection against theft. You're no different than a guy who leaves his front door wide open in that regard.

Quote:

The part of "but we do have access to it" is what I was referring to. They sent that video out before this recent attack. Sony knew they had access to the databanks, even if they were claiming they weren't attacking the players. They should've taken precautions against any attacks back when Anonymous launched this operation.

I'm no genius when it comes to this shit, but I don't interpret someone saying they are capable of attacking login servers as them saying they have the ability to steal personal information.

Because know who else has access to PSN login servers? Me. I connect with them everytime I log on PSN.

Quote:

AnonOps = Anonymous leader core. Anonymous = AnonOps + Anons. So yes, AnonOps = Anonymous.

Where are you getting this shit?

04-28-2011, 01:21 AM	#16
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,603 Thanks: 4,852 Thanked 8,543 Times in 3,786 Posts	Re: The Sony debacle. They do, but they don't. Their methods are tough to describe. They'll announce their assaults and what to do to get them to stop, but if one of their members is discovered, that person is removed from the group immediately. I just find their denial too conveniently timed to not have some involvement in the latest outage.

04-28-2011, 04:17 AM	#20
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,603 Thanks: 4,852 Thanked 8,543 Times in 3,786 Posts	Re: The Sony debacle. Mibs, when they took the servers down they gave no information at all. Everyone was kept in the dark about it. Not even a "we're experiencing technical difficulties" message. This went on for days with no answer and then they suddenly drop a bombshell of "our servers have been compromised, we don't know the full extent of it but we know that our customers usernames/passwords, birthdays, e-mail and postal addresses have been compromised and there is a possibility that credit cards have been compromised.". Sony has a good security system set up, but they weren't using it as extensively as they should have for several million people's information, especially with the Anonymous attacks over the past month. By the way, here is Anonymous' message to Sony regarding the attacks on the servers. That being said, a DDoS attack is when a hacker, or group of hackers, pings a server/field of servers and overwhelms them to the point the servers shut down to avoid damage. A ping is a signal sent to the target that the target must decode and process. Kinda like when a cable company checks to see if your cable box or modem is working properly. DDoSing is sending multiple pings at the same time in a rapid fire manner. The servers, on top of handling normal pings from the clients (players) can't handle the massive influx of signals and will shut down temporarily. When they're brought back up, the hackers (Anonymous) will do the attack again. Thus the acronym DDoS, or Distributed Denial of Service. As I mentioned, they did this to the former Egyptian government and managed to shut down government websites that stayed down until Muburak's resignation. They also DDoS'd, prank called, and black faxed (sent faxes that were solid black sheets to kill the fax machine's ink) the Church of Scientology back in 2008 for removing a leaked video from youtube that had Tom Cruise saying that scientologists would be the only ones that would help at the scene of a car crash; that Scientologists were the world's authority on reforming criminals and getting people off drugs, among other things. The video Anonymous sent is actually pretty cool. Now that you have an idea of what DDoSing is, what happened this time wasn't DDoS. This latest outage is due to someone actually breaking through Sony's security about their user database and downloading information of all Sony's customers on the PSN. While it's not Anonymous' style (they don't try to steal from people, just harass), the timing is too convenient with their attacks on Sony. They're goal was to shut Sony's PSN system down to get Sony to stop the legal action against geohot, a hacker that "jailbroke" the ps3 (bypassed the security in his ps3 to unlock the ability for it to be used as a computer again) then posted the method online for others to jailbreak their systems. Last edited by kael03; 04-28-2011 at 04:21 AM.

04-28-2011, 08:18 AM	#22
manta No Leaf Clover Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tropic Age: 26 Posts: 411 Thanks: 1,017 Thanked 1,357 Times in 703 Posts	Re: The Sony debacle. Could be someone from anonymous though, using their DDoS attack as a cover to attack while anon gets the whole blame. __________________

04-28-2011, 11:30 AM	#26
Jaxon Groovy. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,393 Thanks: 3,594 Thanked 12,487 Times in 3,669 Posts	Re: The Sony debacle. Then refer to them as "AnonOps". Anonymous is something different. Mibs is right in what he said.

04-28-2011, 11:33 AM	#27
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,603 Thanks: 4,852 Thanked 8,543 Times in 3,786 Posts	Re: The Sony debacle. Not really. Again, AnonOps is the leadership of the entire Anonymous group. They set the operations in motion.

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