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Old 07-31-2011, 07:47 PM   #76
UchihaTaijiya
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Franky
Worshipping the strongest God doesn't necessarily have to be part of this discussion. But debate over which God best fits the scriptures and rational thought is the premise worth debating over here. Gods existence is not dependent on whether you believe in him, therefore saying that you don't believe in this God or that god doesn't constitute an argument, just a personal choice or opinion.
July 10 at 7:08pm · Like

Franky
Neither of which concern me...
July 10 at 7:11pm · Like


William
Define reason and authority, then explain why the Scripture has it and how. That's the root of the discussion.
July 10 at 7:15pm · Like

Joseph
I don't suppose you've ever heard of universal and particular causes and the distinction between the two have you Franky?
July 10 at 7:29pm · Like

Jonathan
What are you trying to do Joseph? Impress us with your knowledge of St. Thomas? Are we children? please do not try to attack Franky because he has not read St. Thomas. There is nothing impressive about that. Besides, if you think that distinction came from St. Thomas, it did not. It is a very old distinction from the Greeks, specifically Aristotle's metaphysics.
July 10 at 7:54pm · Like

Joseph
As I am more than aware. He has yet to read it, so I thought I'd outline it for him. I have not desired to attack him or you or anyone. I'm considerably more nasty when I do.
July 10 at 7:56pm · Like

Jonathan
----Very good question. You may need to consult someone other than the people in this post to have a satisfactory explanation for why Christians believe the Bible is accurate, and authoritative. I could tell you why I think so, but there is no time for that of FB. Maybe over pipes? lol
July 10 at 7:58pm · Like

William
I was just pointing up the central problems, not so much asking for an answer... I have something like three different books on Scripture and Authority going right now. And I'm actually working on Faith and Rationality for a paper. So those are problems I'm tackling myself. And I'm up for discussion and smoking as a matter of course.
July 10 at 8:02pm · Like

Bryant
Okay, here comes the next long one. Sorry to interrupt, but I guess that's just how these conversations go
July 10 at 8:04pm · Like

Bryant
Thanks Franky, much appreciated

Just a heads up, I can relate to everyone in this conversation. All of this is very close to my heart. I cannot become emotionally unattached, and in conversations like this, I think it is a mistake to be so. Anyways, just a heads up: if I say anything that offends any of my brothers, (and if you are saved, you are my brother. Period) I apologize, for such was not my intention; it was only a result of my passion that the name and glory of Christ be proclaimed.

Before we continue on, let’s bring the Bible into this, shall we?

“’You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.” But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.’”
Matt 5:43-48 (ESV)

This makes it very clear to me: as Christians, we are to love our enemies—those who persecute us. Think about that. Love. Them. Who persecutes Christians? Is it not someone full of evil and sin in their heart? Probably not saved. Scratch that, definitely not saved. And we’re supposed to love them. Why? Look at the verse: so we can be sons of our Father. What do sons do? They do what the Father does. It’s this makes it clear: we are supposed to love the wicked because Jesus loves the wicked. Period.

So think about this verse. That paints a very different picture than the attitude “You’re a sinner, so I can do what I want with you, even if that’s making you get burned at the stake.” This verse is very clear: that is NOT God’s intention. It’s not his plan. It’s not His will. He loves the person getting raped. He. Loves. Them. He doesn’t want them to endure such pain and trauma. He doesn’t. Because He loves them, even if they are a sinner at core and his enemies—the object of his wrath. He still loves them.

For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
1 Tim 4:4-5 (ESV)

This is verse is simply a passing comment by Paul when he is speaking of those who fall away by devoting themselves to false teachings. This speaks to me the obvious, which is pretty simple. God doesn’t make bad things. He makes good things. I think the reason this is not discussed very much in Scripture is because everybody assumed it. When you say God is good, it means just that. God is good. He does good things. He wishes for there to be good things. He is good. A good man wishes for good to prosper. Not evil. God did not bring evil into existence. We did. And He let us. But He didn’t do it, and He didn’t want it. Bible says so.

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
Micah 6:8 (ESV)

What is good? To love kindness. Quite straightforward. God is good. God loves kindness. The opposite is also true: God does not love wickedness. In fact, it’s obvious that God hates evil. God is not going to decree that someone commit evil if He hates it. Because… well, He hates evil. Plain and simple.

Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
Romans 12:9 (ESV)

God is love. Love hates evil. God hates evil. He does not wish for there to be evil in the world. He hates it. Soon, he will wipe it all out. But He withholds His hand, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV). God does not wish for anyone to perish, but that all should reach repentance. Again, very clear. God does not wish for there to be death. His good and perfect will finds no pleasure in the deeds of the wicked.
July 10 at 8:05pm · Like · 3 people
__________________
If the elephants have past lives yet are destined to always remember
It's no wonder how they scream
Like you and I they must have some temper

And I am dreaming of them on the plains
Dirtying up their beds
Watching for some sign of rain to cool their hot heads

And how dare that you send me that card when I'm doing all that I can do
You are forcing me to remember when all I want is to just forget you

If the tiger shall protect her young then tell me how did you slip by
All my instincts have failed me for once
I must have somehow slept the whole night

And I am dreaming of them with their kill
Tearing it all apart
Blood dripping from their lips and teeth sinking into heart

And how dare that you say you'll call
When you know I need some peace of mind
If you have to take sides with the animals
Won't you do it with one who is kind

And if the hawks in the trees need the dead
If you're living you don't stand a chance
For a time though you share the same bed
There are only two ends to this dance

You can flee with your wounds just in time or lie there as he feeds
Watching yourself ripped to shreds and laughing as you bleed

So for those of you falling in love keep it kind
Keep it good
Keep it right
Throw yourself in the midst of danger but keep one eye open at night

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Old 07-31-2011, 07:47 PM   #77
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Bryant
I think one of the hardest truths for any man to swallow is just how much God loves us. We don’t like that. We don’t want to believe that God really loves the person getting raped. We don’t want to believe that God really loves the person going to Hell. We don’t want to believe that He loves even us Christians. Or, more exactly, we don’t want to believe HOW MUCH He loves us. In our hard hearts, we can justify ourselves if we don’t see ourselves as the precious children that He gave his life for. We can justify our sin and sickness if we tell ourselves “the only reason God is interested in me is because He wants to get something (glory) out of me, and no other reason.” Why? Because what we really fear more than anything is that we have turned our backs and spit in the face of the most powerful being in the universe, who lowers himself to the place where He could say something like

You have captivated my heart, my sister, my bride; you have captivated my heart with one glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace. How beautiful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much better is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your oils than any spice!
Song 4:9-10 (ESV)

about us. It scares us to believe that we could treat with apathy the only one who will ever truly care about us, and, more so, the all powerful, all knowing, completely righteous and holy God. We want distance. We don’t want him to care, because then, we have done the unthinkable and committed a greater atrocity than we could imagine: turning our backs on the innocent love of a father or bridegroom.

I mean no disrespect by this next comment, only love: it grieves me to hear this idea that God wishes for there to be evil. You don’t know the sorrow that that brings. How can one say with one side of his mouth “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:16) with his mouth, but then with his hands pull the strings to cause one of the very ones he commanded holiness from to commit such horrible sin? What hypocrisy! God says “ 4 Love is patient and kind… 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth,” (1 Corinthians 13). God does not rejoice at wrongdoing. Hardly. It grieves him to see our sin.

(for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard)
2 Peter 2:8 (ESV)

This verse is referring to Lot, a sinner. If Lot is tormented over the evil of a generation, how much must it distress God? He does NOT wish for it to be that way. Good is DISTRESSED (vs. 7) by evil. Good is not okay with evil; it ABHORS it. Moreover, it definitely does not WISH for that.

“Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.”
1 Peter 3:8-9 (ESV)

God says it is good to have a tender heart. Also, God says it is good not to repay evil for evil. So two things: God has a kind, tender, and loving heart, because God is good (not to deny his wrath and vengeance. That is not the object of this discussion, however. But I will say that God is not a pathetic God. He is vicious towards sin. Vengeful. Fearful. But also kind and tender hearted); also, God does not have the perspective, “You are an evil sinner, so I may justly do with you as I please.” That’s not how God’s mind operates. That’s just not who He is. In fact, that is a horrible thing to say about my Dad! How can you respect someone so calloused, uncaring, hypocritical, and cruel?

It’s very clear from scripture: God is GOOD. He’s good. That’s right, good. Not “He’s good in a way far above our comprehension in a way we can never understand.” No. He’s good. You can say that. He gave us the ability to do good and to know good. We can know what good is. God is good. It is not good to desire evil. God does not desire evil. Plain and simple.

As for the problem of evil: it didn’t “just happen,” and I definitely don’t propose that it did. The entrance of evil into the world was very deliberate and purposeful. Just not by God’s purposes. By ours. We did it. It’s our fault. We need to quite blaming God and fess up that it’s our fault that the world is like it is. In the garden, God gave Adam a choice: follow righteousness, or die. Adam chose. We died. That’s why evil is in the world. God didn’t ordain it; WE ordained it. And now we’re feeling the consequences of our choices. What is the most amazing thing to me is that God allowed us to bring into existence that which he so passionately hates. Guess that just goes to show how much He really does love us.

Love you guys.
July 10 at 8:05pm · Like · 3 people

Joseph
Bryant, I may just like you.
July 10 at 8:19pm · Like · 1 person

William
I agree with much of what this man has said.
July 10 at 8:19pm · Like · 1 person

William
Although, if God created man with the capacity for evil, and knowing man would do evil, how is He not complicit in it?
July 10 at 8:26pm · Like

William
And, I think Original Sin is questionable, at least the traditional version I am familiar with.
July 10 at 8:27pm · Like

Joseph
My main problem with the traditional version of Original Sin derives from the fact that science forces me to take that passage as metaphorical while it is usually taken as literal for the derivation of the dogma.
July 10 at 8:29pm · Like

William
Also, what the heck is sovereignty anyway but the right to govern and how does it apply to God without there being some God external criteria for such rights?
July 10 at 8:59pm · Like

Franky
I would say we all understand it as the question of "If God is all powerful over all things, does he exercise his power over all things?" (which implies so so much)
July 10 at 9:16pm · Like

William
Hmm, the philosopher in me says there's a better name for that somewhere. Is God's omnipotence (putative) always actively expressed? (that what you mean?)
July 10 at 9:38pm · Like

Franky
Probably, but more along the lines of facilitating questions of whether or not God has to be omnipotent. As in does his power have to exist in all dimensions. And if his power is not in all dimensions in all respects, what powers exist to fill the void (or does the void need to be filled?) And concerning power coupled with knowledge in respect to potency and action concerning all things, or whether true innaction can occur with the omniscient/potent being.

You know, to help sound out the brainer inducing questions of a lifetime.
July 10 at 11:03pm · Like
__________________
If the elephants have past lives yet are destined to always remember
It's no wonder how they scream
Like you and I they must have some temper

And I am dreaming of them on the plains
Dirtying up their beds
Watching for some sign of rain to cool their hot heads

And how dare that you send me that card when I'm doing all that I can do
You are forcing me to remember when all I want is to just forget you

If the tiger shall protect her young then tell me how did you slip by
All my instincts have failed me for once
I must have somehow slept the whole night

And I am dreaming of them with their kill
Tearing it all apart
Blood dripping from their lips and teeth sinking into heart

And how dare that you say you'll call
When you know I need some peace of mind
If you have to take sides with the animals
Won't you do it with one who is kind

And if the hawks in the trees need the dead
If you're living you don't stand a chance
For a time though you share the same bed
There are only two ends to this dance

You can flee with your wounds just in time or lie there as he feeds
Watching yourself ripped to shreds and laughing as you bleed

So for those of you falling in love keep it kind
Keep it good
Keep it right
Throw yourself in the midst of danger but keep one eye open at night

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Old 07-31-2011, 08:24 PM   #78
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Yeah, I missed that Jim one. Agree with that dude. And kinda surprised Franky would be in college. I figured he was some 13 year old. Holy shit. >_>

Bryant is a decently elegant writer, I suppose. But I don't buy his argument. How can a all powerful deity hate fucking evil so much, but just chill there watching kids get raped and shit. He can stop it. He can do it in such a way that doesn't fuck with whatever his plan is. Because he's supposedly all-powerful. So he can do anything he wants. Since he can do anything, it's impossible for anyone to come up with an excuse as to why God just sits there and watches kids get raped if he didn't want kids to get raped.

Maybe I just have a different definition of good, but that's not good.

If God was good he'd give me superman powers, plus the ability to sense when a child is about to be raped, plus the ability to turn other heroes into superheroes with rape sensing powers too so I can build a massive manly anti-childrape superhero league. Otherwise he's a douche that hates little kids. Faktz e-z.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:59 PM   #79
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Nope. He's a physics major and every now and then makes posts entirely in Latin. And I recall seeing him urge people to take the course Latin Poetry or else the class would be dropped. o_O

Also, one of his next statuses after that discussion was this:
Franky
If it was within your power to save your childrens' lives, would you wait for their permission?
July 15 at 9:16pm via Facebook Mobile · Like ·
View all 277 comments

God = Parent; Humanity = Children. Way too fucking long to share. lol.

I sometimes get the impression he is playing up the role of devout fundamentalist simply to arouse a more intense discussion... Would suit the Franky I used to know.. but I can't be bothered to inquire cause I don't, and I mean DON'T want to get in a stupid ass theological debate with him if it turns out he's dead serious. Just nah. Plus, it's summer man. I spend far more time at work and at the river. 8] So much more important shit going on, yo. haha.


As for your question, I don't know. You would think so comrade. =/
__________________
If the elephants have past lives yet are destined to always remember
It's no wonder how they scream
Like you and I they must have some temper

And I am dreaming of them on the plains
Dirtying up their beds
Watching for some sign of rain to cool their hot heads

And how dare that you send me that card when I'm doing all that I can do
You are forcing me to remember when all I want is to just forget you

If the tiger shall protect her young then tell me how did you slip by
All my instincts have failed me for once
I must have somehow slept the whole night

And I am dreaming of them with their kill
Tearing it all apart
Blood dripping from their lips and teeth sinking into heart

And how dare that you say you'll call
When you know I need some peace of mind
If you have to take sides with the animals
Won't you do it with one who is kind

And if the hawks in the trees need the dead
If you're living you don't stand a chance
For a time though you share the same bed
There are only two ends to this dance

You can flee with your wounds just in time or lie there as he feeds
Watching yourself ripped to shreds and laughing as you bleed

So for those of you falling in love keep it kind
Keep it good
Keep it right
Throw yourself in the midst of danger but keep one eye open at night

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Old 07-31-2011, 10:18 PM   #80
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Ah, I dunno. I think its more wishful thinking on my part. The old Franky would have already let everyone know he was exaggerating his beliefs. =(

Also wouldn't mind seeing what Mal has to say since I believe he's a Christian still. ^^

Yeah our Mods rock. Anyway, enough, I've gone completely off topic haha. Peace out.

edit - wut ze hellz Skullbat... dont be deletin poasts on me nao. 8]
__________________
If the elephants have past lives yet are destined to always remember
It's no wonder how they scream
Like you and I they must have some temper

And I am dreaming of them on the plains
Dirtying up their beds
Watching for some sign of rain to cool their hot heads

And how dare that you send me that card when I'm doing all that I can do
You are forcing me to remember when all I want is to just forget you

If the tiger shall protect her young then tell me how did you slip by
All my instincts have failed me for once
I must have somehow slept the whole night

And I am dreaming of them with their kill
Tearing it all apart
Blood dripping from their lips and teeth sinking into heart

And how dare that you say you'll call
When you know I need some peace of mind
If you have to take sides with the animals
Won't you do it with one who is kind

And if the hawks in the trees need the dead
If you're living you don't stand a chance
For a time though you share the same bed
There are only two ends to this dance

You can flee with your wounds just in time or lie there as he feeds
Watching yourself ripped to shreds and laughing as you bleed

So for those of you falling in love keep it kind
Keep it good
Keep it right
Throw yourself in the midst of danger but keep one eye open at night


Last edited by UchihaTaijiya; 08-01-2011 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:46 AM   #81
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Religion is about 100 kinds of fucked up. I'll celebrate the day it's wiped clean from the planet.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:25 AM   #82
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Quote:
Originally Posted by UchihaTaijiya View Post
Ah, I dunno. I think its more wishful thinking on my part. The old Franky would have already let everyone know he was exaggerating his beliefs. =(

Also wouldn't mind seeing what Mal has to say since I believe he's a Christian still. ^^

Yeah our Mods rock. Anyway, enough, I've gone completely off topic haha. Peace out.

edit - wut ze hellz Skullbat... dont be deletin poasts on me nao. 8]

Yeah well it didn't quite sound right when I read it out loud, I will however retype the part your replying to for consistency to the other members

THIS IS WHY I STAY ON THIS FORUM FOR 7(?) YEARS OF INTELLIGENT AND REASONING MODERATORS <-- I love you fandom


you're leet taijiya and Miboru just wanted you to know I'm dickriding for you too (no homo)
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:51 PM   #83
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbat01 View Post
THIS IS WHY I STAY ON THIS FORUM FOR 7(?) YEARS OF INTELLIGENT AND REASONING MODERATORS <-- I love you fandom
"Join Date: April 2008" hmmm.... the math seems a little off here.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:40 PM   #84
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Apparently, atheists are the most hateful group on the earth.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:48 PM   #85
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Shouldn't that be "hated"?
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:54 PM   #86
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Re: Jesus, not the first

It's a remark that some Christians like to make. They'll say that atheists are hateful, gloomy and miserable.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:59 PM   #87
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Coming from a lot of Christians, I don't really let that get to me. A friend of mine had a text that was funny and accurate at the same time: "Religion is like a penis. It's fine that you have one, but don't whip it out in public and shove it down my throat".
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:19 PM   #88
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Re: Jesus, not the first

I like how religious people seem so oblivious of the true nature of minorities' plight, like using the higher suicide rate among gay people to refute homosexuality, not even considering the chance of their unwarranted discrimination towards them to be the main reason behind so many suicides. The "atheists are gloomy" bit is the exact same thing that happens with the whiners in the Naruto section: they don't comprehend opinions different from theirs and confuse criticism and skepticism with hatred and cynicism. I couldn't care less about such poor comments, but it wouldn't hurt them to grow some common sense and stop with the shenanigans.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:43 PM   #89
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Well it makes perfect sense if you think about it:

Christians are mocked > only mean people make fun of others > happy people are not mean > people who mock Christians must not be happy > anyone who is not happy is gloomy and suicidal.
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:05 PM   #90
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kina View Post
Apparently, atheists are the most hateful group on the earth.
I fucked loled.

"I love Jesus, and the cross and if you don't, I hope someone rapes you!"

Fucking psychos. And they do it so happily, too. They just sit there with the most elegant smile in the world when you know they are thinking, "I want to fucking kill this dude and bathe in their guts."

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