Jesus, not the first - Page 7

Skullbat01 · 08-01-2011, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kina

It's a remark that some Christians like to make. They'll say that atheists are hateful, gloomy and miserable.

you hit the nail on the head

@Kael03
ohh my "7(?)" was a question about how long the forum has been running

and to respond to your remark this isn't my first account its my 2nd maybe 3rd
I was locked out of the original because my isp has changed a few times over the years so that corresponding email was deleted

yes I know NOW that I could have asked for help from the mods but at 13 I wasn't the brightest bead on the rosary

Kina · 08-01-2011, 07:36 PM

I can't tell if you're agreeing that atheists are hateful or not.

kael03 · 08-02-2011, 06:48 PM

Sound quality is kinda meh, but George Carlin voices my opinion pretty accurately (yes, I worship the sun and Joe Pechi).

ACt · 08-02-2011, 10:19 PM

Bah - Joe Pechi is a chump. I'd sooner worship Robert DeNiro.

Interesting change of events that I missed over the weekend. But Miburo, pretty much all deities throughout human history have asked for some form of human or blood sacrifice, including the rape, pillaging and conquering of "infidels" of some kind... why should our modern gods be any different? By which, I do not truly advocate for child rape, but that all gods are replaceable and often temporary.

**Miburo** · 08-02-2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACt

Interesting change of events that I missed over the weekend. But Miburo, pretty much all deities throughout human history have asked for some form of human or blood sacrifice, including the rape, pillaging and conquering of "infidels" of some kind... why should our modern gods be any different? By which, I do not truly advocate for child rape, but that all gods are replaceable and often temporary.

Well, wait wut? If you're saying lolgod, then I totally agree.

I was actually just posting about a discussion I had with some crazies on that one site Fayrra posted about (In which the thread he posted in seems to be missing now. Weird...) regarding what I guess would be the problems of evil. I'm sure it applies to some other gods, especially the ones that are supposedly purely moral, all-powerful, and all-seeing. I just don't know about other religions all that well besides the jesus one.

And I think the manly Norse Heathenism Gods are just suppose to be badasses. Mission fucking accomplished. Now that's a good religion.

Scientia · 08-03-2011, 04:05 AM

I think that he's saying that almost all religions allow irrational killing of somekind, probably including the raping of innocent women and children. Which, as you stated before makes you sick. So, I guess the Norse religion, while not being hypocritical should still make you sick? I know a manga isn't the best thing to base my history off of, but in Vinland Saga I know a lot of the norse people just fucking killed and/or burned the villages/village people simply because they were in their way/needed supplies, etc. It was badass, as in it wasn't like for personal revenge or some shit, but rather they were just in their way or something like that.

Or maybe he's not saying anything like that. lol

ACt · 08-03-2011, 07:52 AM

Norse Sacrifice:

Quote:

Sacrifice could comprise of inanimate objects, animals or humans. Amongst the Norse, there were two types of human sacrifice; that performed for the gods at religious festivals, and retainer sacrifice that was performed at a funeral. An eye-witness account of retainer sacrifice survives in Ibn Fadlan's account of a Rus ship burial, where a slave-girl had volunteered to accompany her lord to the next world. Reports of religious sacrifice are given by Tacitus, Saxo Grammaticus and Adam of Bremen.

The Heimskringla tells of Swedish King Aun who sacrificed nine of his sons in an effort to prolong his life until his subjects stopped him from killing his last son Egil. According to Adam of Bremen, the Swedish kings sacrificed males every ninth year during the Yule sacrifices at the Temple at Uppsala. The Swedes had the right not only to elect kings but also to depose them, and both king Domalde and king Olof Trätälja are said to have been sacrificed after years of famine.

Odin, the chief god of the Norse, was associated with death by hanging, and a possible practice of Odinic sacrifice by strangling has some archeological support in the existence of bodies perfectly preserved by the acid of the Jutland (later taken over by the Daner people) peatbogs, into which they were cast after having been strangled. One of the most notable examples of this is the Bronze Age Tollund Man. However, we possess no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of these stranglings, which could have other explanations, such as being a form of capital punishment.

Pretty tame in the long run, really. I believe most sacrifices were to be honoured among the gods rather than desired/required by the gods. But yeah, my point was that over time, all association with gods have generally required some level of "life sacrifice" to "appease the gods", which was often closer to "appease the godly". Whether it be the slaughter of animals or virgins to the providing temples with your best produce and sons/daughters for "use" of the priests. Today's religions are, in the long run, no different on many of those levels but are much more secretive about it. I know you were arguing that someone making the case that religion OKs child rape is completely asinine, but I am presenting that these sorts of things have always been associated with gods and religions (and, let's be honest, humanity) that there could be many who see that as a very valid argument - particularly when you look at one catholic church and its inability to even deal with any of their rapists, er, priests beyond moving them to a new seat of power.

It's like scolding the dog for killing chickens by moving it into the coop.

**Miburo** · 08-03-2011, 11:30 AM

I wasn't talking about humans doing evil things. I was talking about an all-powerful, all-seeing, perfectly good deity watching little kids be raped and not doing shit about it. So I was criticizing the god himself for doing what we would, under normal circumstances, consider pretty fucked up shit. The only time I was criticizing people is when I was talking about how people will argue that their god doing that shit is still perfectly good by suggesting that him allowing children to be raped is totally morally acceptable; or how they worship such a morally disgusting figure.

Not that religions condone immoral behavior for their followers, though I agree that many do that too.

ACt · 08-03-2011, 11:42 AM

Ah, I understand. I was on the tack that gods demand many of these acts of us, and while they don't intervene, it would be thought of as god working through us. For if the gods made us like them, and we are pathetic, vengeful, spiteful dangerous creatures... well.

Although the argument that god asks us for everything and then allows bad things to happen when it is supposed to be able to step in and stop whatever it wants, but doesn't making it an insensitive jerk, is also a good one.

Skullbat01 · 08-04-2011, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kina

I can't tell if you're agreeing that atheists are hateful or not.

sorry I ignored the thread no I was agreeing that its a common tactic used by more fundamentalist christians
they act like christianity is some oppressed minority and use that as an excuse to lash out at anyone who doesn't agree

if my rosary statement was confusing it was an old married with children joke about being stupid a nun made
( and yes if you're wondering I was raised catholic but I by no means advocate the radical 1920s(?) tent revival shit this country has been putting up with for the last 90 years)

Gakure · 08-05-2011, 07:01 AM

Quote:

I wasn't talking about humans doing evil things. I was talking about an all-powerful, all-seeing, perfectly good deity watching little kids be raped and not doing shit about it. So I was criticizing the god himself for doing what we would, under normal circumstances, consider pretty..........

Quote:

.....................Although the argument that god asks us for everything and then allows bad things to happen when it is supposed to be able to step in and stop whatever it wants, but doesn't making it an insensitive jerk, is also a good one.

Don't know abt others but as a xtian, I got ma 2 cents abt this issue

Here goes:

God is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere but the same rules apply. His influence is limited by how much Man lets Him [Individual Issue]. Your rights end when somebody’s own begins [Just as how u can’t come to ma house and order how things shd be to ur liking, the same way I can’t come to ur house to order things to ma liking]. You have to remember this very important thing: God’s words are law even unto Himself. He [Himself] and the whole world are governed by what He had said. The heavens are the Lord’s but the earth He gave to Mankind. So the earth and whatever happens to it is out of his jurisdiction. He has absolutely no influence on how it is run unless the owner [Man] allows Him.

Now, Man was made as a spirit, has a soul and living in an earthly vessel which is the body. The most important part of Man is the soul. It consist the Feelings, the Mind [for thought formulations] and the Will [for choices].

Man’s fall brought about all evil. God is good and he loves us cos we [Man] was His greatest creation. No earthly father gives his child cancer, or breaks his legs, or let them get raped, or do him any evil just to teach him a lesson. How much more God. The point is, I am engulfed by the choices I made as a person.

Most sufferings and I mean MOST are self inflicted. E.g what is God suppose to do when I do crack/joint/alcohol/ecstasy etc when I very well know it kills? Come and knock it out of ma mouth every time I try to? Most evil happening is just due to the lack of common sense. If we could only apply a lil common sense [Like checking the water level in the pool b4 diving head in, Not pointing weapons at people, Staying indoors when storm is coming etc].

what about victims of rape, carjacking, robbery etc. What about them, does God not see them? Yes he does. But he is restricted by his own words. He cannot temper with our choices and so has absolutely nothing to do with the decisions of the rapist, murderer, arson or the carjacker etc to carry out their ordeal [which they shd be blamed for not God]

Victims, sorry to say are at the wrong place and at the wrong time [which is actually also due to their choices], but there is a way out. Just by the mention of the name Jesus, I personally have avoided many of such happenings. He is ready to [influence your choices and surroundings] if u allow him into ur heart.

**Miburo** · 08-05-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gakure

Don't know abt others but as a xtian, I got ma 2 cents abt this issue

Here goes:

God is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere but the same rules apply. His influence is limited by how much Man lets Him [Individual Issue]. Your rights end when somebody’s own begins [Just as how u can’t come to ma house and order how things shd be to ur liking, the same way I can’t come to ur house to order things to ma liking]. You have to remember this very important thing: God’s words are law even unto Himself. He [Himself] and the whole world are governed by what He had said. The heavens are the Lord’s but the earth He gave to Mankind. So the earth and whatever happens to it is out of his jurisdiction. He has absolutely no influence on how it is run unless the owner [Man] allows Him.

Now, Man was made as a spirit, has a soul and living in an earthly vessel which is the body. The most important part of Man is the soul. It consist the Feelings, the Mind [for thought formulations] and the Will [for choices].

Man’s fall brought about all evil. God is good and he loves us cos we [Man] was His greatest creation. No earthly father gives his child cancer, or breaks his legs, or let them get raped, or do him any evil just to teach him a lesson. How much more God. The point is, I am engulfed by the choices I made as a person.

Most sufferings and I mean MOST are self inflicted. E.g what is God suppose to do when I do crack/joint/alcohol/ecstasy etc when I very well know it kills? Come and knock it out of ma mouth every time I try to? Most evil happening is just due to the lack of common sense. If we could only apply a lil common sense [Like checking the water level in the pool b4 diving head in, Not pointing weapons at people, Staying indoors when storm is coming etc].

what about victims of rape, carjacking, robbery etc. What about them, does God not see them? Yes he does. But he is restricted by his own words. He cannot temper with our choices and so has absolutely nothing to do with the decisions of the rapist, murderer, arson or the carjacker etc to carry out their ordeal [which they shd be blamed for not God]

Victims, sorry to say are at the wrong place and at the wrong time [which is actually also due to their choices], but there is a way out. Just by the mention of the name Jesus, I personally have avoided many of such happenings. He is ready to [influence your choices and surroundings] if u allow him into ur heart.

Ignoring how in the bible God breaks his rules a fuckload, especially the not killing/murdering people rule (Or even this 'don't fuck with people's ability to make choices rule.' I think he hardened the hearts of the pharoh and his advisors so that they wouldn't puss out and release his chosen people from slavery. Just so he could kill a bunch of innocent egyptians. Been a while since I actually looked at this stuff though...so not 100% on the details.), He still makes all the rules. If the rules don't let Him help out a kid being raped, then that is still on Him. He still is choosing to just sit there and watch children be raped. The rule thing is irrelevant.

And saying that a young child that is being raped was just 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' and implying it's her fault because her choices put her in that situation (What the fuck?!) isn't what we would normally consider a morally righteous stance. It's actually pretty disturbing.

ACt · 08-05-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gakure

God is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere but the same rules apply. His influence is limited by how much Man lets Him [Individual Issue].

Just stop right there - that's a perfect depiction of religion. We have this all powerful, master god who's powers are limitless, except that he is bound by religious laws made by man given to us by him, except for when it is convenient to ignore those laws... as in when we want to smite our enemies or deny women their rights as people. Then, he allows us to do what we want, leaving it until after we die to have us truly atone for our sins, unless we say enough words and are absolved by those appointed by us for him to speak for him (or did he tell us to appoint them for him for us for him?).

It is a beautiful little thought loop, isn't it?

As for man being the greatest creation, for an all powerful, all knowing god, that seems pretty sad. Dude just doesn't want to try.

ask me anything · 08-05-2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

Ignoring how in the bible God breaks his rules a fuckload, especially the not killing/murdering people rule (Or even this 'don't fuck with people's ability to make choices rule.' I think he hardened the hearts of the pharoh and his advisors so that they wouldn't puss out and release his chosen people from slavery. Just so he could kill a bunch of innocent egyptians. Been a while since I actually looked at this stuff though...so not 100% on the details.), He still makes all the rules. If the rules don't let Him help out a kid being raped, then that is still on Him. He still is choosing to just sit there and watch children be raped. The rule thing is irrelevant.

And saying that a young child that is being raped was just 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' and implying it's her fault because her choices put her in that situation (What the fuck?!) isn't what we would normally consider a morally righteous stance. It's actually pretty disturbing.

I would go one step further. The Bible shows numerous accounts of God personally intervening in the matters of his "chosen people"(<---discrimination) but not into others. Doesn't this show he cares more about some people then others? The incident with Moses and the Egyptians shows that He intervened on behalf of an entire people. So why not intervene during the Holocaust? Were his "chosen people" not so chosen anymore? And what of all the accounts of God helping single individuals (David, Solomon, Paul, John, etc..). Are we to believe that they alone were so worth His precious time, that he took then from poverty and slavery, and made then kings and leaders of men, but that innocent children being raped aren't worth his divine intervention?!

What a fucked up belief system. I sincerely hope there is no God. I couldn't imagine a troll with that much power running amok through the universe.

Kina · 08-06-2011, 10:45 PM

It's like this:

08-01-2011, 07:36 PM	#92
Kina Star-Stuff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: You do not matter. None of us do. Age: 21 Posts: 3,433 Thanks: 755 Thanked 1,181 Times in 646 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first I can't tell if you're agreeing that atheists are hateful or not. __________________ Luck is a skill. <Jonathan3 Don't hate on Rival. When I wake on the last day of my life, I want to face it without regret.

08-02-2011, 06:48 PM	#93
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,657 Thanks: 4,939 Thanked 8,589 Times in 3,810 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Sound quality is kinda meh, but George Carlin voices my opinion pretty accurately (yes, I worship the sun and Joe Pechi).

08-02-2011, 10:19 PM	#94
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,285 Thanks: 5,337 Thanked 18,796 Times in 4,884 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Bah - Joe Pechi is a chump. I'd sooner worship Robert DeNiro. Interesting change of events that I missed over the weekend. But Miburo, pretty much all deities throughout human history have asked for some form of human or blood sacrifice, including the rape, pillaging and conquering of "infidels" of some kind... why should our modern gods be any different? By which, I do not truly advocate for child rape, but that all gods are replaceable and often temporary. __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

08-03-2011, 04:05 AM	#96
Scientia Mathematics Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: FL Posts: 310 Thanks: 1,061 Thanked 205 Times in 126 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first I think that he's saying that almost all religions allow irrational killing of somekind, probably including the raping of innocent women and children. Which, as you stated before makes you sick. So, I guess the Norse religion, while not being hypocritical should still make you sick? I know a manga isn't the best thing to base my history off of, but in Vinland Saga I know a lot of the norse people just fucking killed and/or burned the villages/village people simply because they were in their way/needed supplies, etc. It was badass, as in it wasn't like for personal revenge or some shit, but rather they were just in their way or something like that. Or maybe he's not saying anything like that. lol Last edited by Scientia; 08-03-2011 at 04:08 AM.

08-03-2011, 11:30 AM	#98
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first I wasn't talking about humans doing evil things. I was talking about an all-powerful, all-seeing, perfectly good deity watching little kids be raped and not doing shit about it. So I was criticizing the god himself for doing what we would, under normal circumstances, consider pretty fucked up shit. The only time I was criticizing people is when I was talking about how people will argue that their god doing that shit is still perfectly good by suggesting that him allowing children to be raped is totally morally acceptable; or how they worship such a morally disgusting figure. Not that religions condone immoral behavior for their followers, though I agree that many do that too.

08-03-2011, 11:42 AM	#99
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,285 Thanks: 5,337 Thanked 18,796 Times in 4,884 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Ah, I understand. I was on the tack that gods demand many of these acts of us, and while they don't intervene, it would be thought of as god working through us. For if the gods made us like them, and we are pathetic, vengeful, spiteful dangerous creatures... well. Although the argument that god asks us for everything and then allows bad things to happen when it is supposed to be able to step in and stop whatever it wants, but doesn't making it an insensitive jerk, is also a good one. __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

08-06-2011, 10:45 PM	#105
Kina Star-Stuff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: You do not matter. None of us do. Age: 21 Posts: 3,433 Thanks: 755 Thanked 1,181 Times in 646 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first It's like this: __________________ Luck is a skill. <Jonathan3 Don't hate on Rival. When I wake on the last day of my life, I want to face it without regret.

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