Jesus, not the first - Page 10

kael03 · 08-11-2011, 01:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Gakure

Getting personal, aren't we? Shorthand is now a crime. Pettiness.

Way to completely ignore both that question and the point I brought up before with Moses and your use of words, which you failed in your attempt to turn around on me.

It's not petty to call you out on using "xtian" when you are so proud of being a believer. Either you're secretly ashamed of the fact that your stance is illogical, or you are trying to appeal to a certain sub-group by using an internet form of the word. The "stupid" jab came from your string of posts that are completely and utterly illogical and deviating from the topic to spew more of your "I have no clue what I'm saying so I'll just repeat the same illogical argument to stubborn them into submission".

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@Mibs. Understood. As already explained He is limited.

Wait, wait, wait. You Christians call your God an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful being that exists outside of our reality, but He's "limited"? Do you not see the contradiction, or complete insanity, of that?

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Laws are not laws until they have no exceptions.

As someone studying Criminal Justice (i.e., Law), this is bullshit. Every law has exceptions. That's what the various defenses come from. We'll go with the big one "Thou shalt not kill", or "murder". There are differing degrees of murder, depending on intent and actions. Man can kill another man if in severe distress and defending themselves, and the law will exempt that person due to the circumstances behind the action. Already there is one exception to the law, so your argument is now null.

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That's what makes them laws in the first place.

Actually, what makes them laws is the crime having been committed in the first place, and said crime not conforming to societal norms.

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It is not His choice to make.

Genesis says otherwise.

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Man is suppose to make Him [God] his choice.

If God existed there wouldn't be a choice. He would prove his love of his "creation" by making the world perfect, thus proving his existence and gaining more followers.

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You [God] can't protect people from rape while at the same time allow people to choose to rape [that will be a case of double standard].

An all-knowing, all-powerful, all-seeing God can indeed protect someone from rape in multiple ways. First, eliminate the violent urges in humanity that grow into choices to do harm (i.e., rape). This isn't eliminating free-will, but simply making the world a better place to live in. Second, God, seeing that the rape will happen at a certain time and place, can "inspire" the victim to not go that route on that particular day and time. Again, not interfering with free-will. Or, if you want to get extreme, God can completely eliminate free-will/evil, making a perfect utopia filled with people that are completely devoted to him.

In other words, go look at the flow chart Kina posted a while back.

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OK. Let's look at this picture, shall we? There is the small part and the big one [This is an individual case in point].

Here goes: A child is taken to the clinic by the parents to be immunized [lets say HBV vaccine]. When the needle is pierced into that child, he considers it painful, suffering and with his little innocent eyes, looks at the parents for what he calls deliverance. But the parents know better. Stop the immunization [child gets HB later in life and dies from it] or continue [child is protected from the HBV].

Looking at the big picture, the parents need to continue the immunization cos that painful ordeal [to the child] is to protect him later in life[from death]. The parents have to chose between "the needle" and "death" cos they know the end from the beginning.

The same applies to God. To us, the suffering shd seize if He does really exists [small picture] but we shd look at the big picture, without it [not saying it is good], pride, overconfidence, consequence-less actions etc will be the order of the day. So to some extent, suffering is good [teaches us our limitations and helps us survive, be responsible etc].

This world is imperfect at every angle u look at it. Our suffering [caused by the god of this world] saddens Him. That is why He wants us to turn to Him for comfort, not turn to the world. If the world was such a perfect place, then there'd be no reason to turn to God for comfort.

So you're comparing a man-made vaccine, created to extend the lifespan of the human race by eliminating a deadly disease, to "appeasing to God" in order to get in his good graces? God is an attention whore.

**Miburo** · 08-11-2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gakure

@Mibs. Understood. As already explained He is limited. Laws are not laws until they have no exceptions. That's what makes them laws in the first place. It is not His choice to make. Man is suppose to make Him [God] his choice. You [God] can't protect people from rape while at the same time allow people to choose to rape [that will be a case of double standard].

That doesn't make sense. It's not like it's in any way impossible for God to stop children from being raped without interferring with the concept of free will. If I can stop a child from being raped without it fucking with free will, then God certainly should be able to.

He just doesn't. Because He's a douche (Well, it's actually because he's imaginary. But for the sake of discussion...).

Quote:

OK. Let's look at this picture, shall we? There is the small part and the big one [This is an individual case in point].

Here goes: A child is taken to the clinic by the parents to be immunized [lets say HBV vaccine]. When the needle is pierced into that child, he considers it painful, suffering and with his little innocent eyes, looks at the parents for what he calls deliverance. But the parents know better. Stop the immunization [child gets HB later in life and dies from it] or continue [child is protected from the HBV].

Looking at the big picture, the parents need to continue the immunization cos that painful ordeal [to the child] is to protect him later in life[from death]. The parents have to chose between "the needle" and "death" cos they know the end from the beginning.

The same applies to God. To us, the suffering shd seize if He does really exists [small picture] but we shd look at the big picture, without it [not saying it is good], pride, overconfidence, consequence-less actions etc will be the order of the day. So to some extent, suffering is good [teaches us our limitations and helps us survive, be responsible etc].

This world is imperfect at every angle u look at it. Our suffering [caused by the god of this world] saddens Him. That is why He wants us to turn to Him for comfort, not turn to the world. If the world was such a perfect place, then there'd be no reason to turn to God for comfort.

Please tell me how a child being raped is good for that child. That is your argument. It's kinda like a goddamn vaccination.

What kind of fucked up being would let children be raped so that they'll turn to Him for comfort. That's fucking horrible. Like, one of the most horrible things I've ever heard. And you worship that thing? It's like a goddamn monster. That devil dude seems like a saint in comparison. He just gets people to eat fruit of knowledge and shit. He's not all like "fuck yeah, child rape. Those kids will fucking love me now. Mwahaha!"

kael03 · 08-11-2011, 06:41 PM

I have a legitimate question about God. If He's all-loving, all-forgiving, gave us the ability to choose, why does he have a special place full of torture and fire for those of us that chose not to believe in Him? He supposedly gave us the ability to choose anything we want, including the choice of whether or not we want to believe in him, but he will send us to be punished for all eternity if we choose to not believe in Him? Give me a logical reason behind the existence of Hell for non-believers.

Skullbat01 · 08-11-2011, 07:54 PM

actually the sad part miburo

Lucifer is latin for light bringer lol let that one fuck with some minds right now

then go read
Et Nox facta est Victor Hugo was quite devout and even he saw the glaring implications

**Miburo** · 08-11-2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

I have a legitimate question about God. If He's all-loving, all-forgiving, gave us the ability to choose, why does he have a special place full of torture and fire for those of us that chose not to believe in Him? He supposedly gave us the ability to choose anything we want, including the choice of whether or not we want to believe in him, but he will send us to be punished for all eternity if we choose to not believe in Him? Give me a logical reason behind the existence of Hell for non-believers.

In addition to this, it could easily be argued that there really isn't even much of a choice. You really don't have any real choice to make. At least I know I don't.

Uh, what I mean is that there isn't any credible evidence that suggests any god even exists. So for me, or probably any one else that relies on reason, there isn't really much of a choice. 'No god' is really the only option actually being presented here.

That said, I'm sure people will argue that you can still choose to believe in god or not, even without having the options clearly presented to you. But I would disagree based on the nature of belief. Belief itself isn't really about making a choice. I can't actually chose to believe some imaginary monster exists, like really, honestly believe in it. Because deep down I still think it's bullshit. Nothing changes that except evidence or experience or whatever. It's not an actual choice I can just make. I can pretend to believe in shit, but I can't choose to actually and honestly believe in shit just like that.

Which would make the whole 'belief = heaven; not-believing = punishment' thing pretty immoral in of itself. Especially since eternal punishment seems to be the type of punishment we're talking about. Eternity is a long fucking time to be punished for something you can't even really control. It's like god was created by barbaric men who thought stoning people for stupid shit was a good idea...

kael03 · 08-11-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

In addition to this, it could easily be argued that there really isn't even much of a choice.

There really isn't. Not with the way God is depicted by Christians. The way God is depicted is like this: "Ok, I just created humans. I give them free will to choose to live however they want, and believe whatever they want. The joke of this existence is thus: They are free to believe what they want, but those that believe in Me will live forever in eternal paradise, and those that do not believe in Me will burn in a torturous realm for all eternity. That will show them!"

Like I said before: God is a fickle bitch.

Gakure · 08-18-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

It's not petty to call you out on using "xtian" when you are so proud of being a believer.

Yes, it is. U are totally ignoring the argument and going personal on how I write on the interwebz, calling me stupid for writing 'xtian' instead of 'christian'. How is that not pettiness.

BOT. Let me just quote my self again since most have misconstrue my point.

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.............The same applies to God. To us, the suffering shd seize if He does really exists [small picture] but we shd look at the big picture, without it [not saying it is good], pride, overconfidence, consequence-less actions etc will be the order of the day. So to some extent, suffering is good [teaches us our limitations and helps us survive, be responsible etc].

This was an answer to @TSO's question. It was not directed at the actual discussion of God looking away whilst children get raped. Shd have clarified. My bad.

Quote:

I have a legitimate question about God. If He's all-loving, all-forgiving, gave us the ability to choose, why does he have a special place full of torture and fire for those of us that chose not to believe in Him? He supposedly gave us the ability to choose anything we want, including the choice of whether or not we want to believe in him, but he will send us to be punished for all eternity if we choose to not believe in Him? Give me a logical reason behind the existence of Hell for non-believers.

Nice, u are now getting to the topic. Hell is a temporary place made for Lucifer and his hosts who went against God. Not for humanity. Yours is to chose where u wanna go [though it emphasized u choose life].

**Miburo** · 08-18-2011, 05:07 PM

I can't believe people take this shit seriously. It's so obviously stupid. Holy fucking shit.

***Demi-God*** · 08-18-2011, 05:18 PM

Religion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. - Ambrose Bierce

Word.

Gakure · 08-19-2011, 09:27 AM

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I can't believe people take this shit seriously. It's so obviously stupid.

Wanna die to find out? Anything real shd be taken seriously, and hell is. Start taking it seriously b4 it's too late.

**Miburo** · 08-19-2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gakure

Wanna die to find out? Anything real shd be taken seriously, and hell is.

You prove it's real and I'll take it seriously.

I won't hold my breath.

***Demi-God*** · 08-19-2011, 10:26 AM

Evidence plz? Not the ramblings of a woman who claimed God talked to her nor anything from the Bible.

Aaaaand go.

Or maybe if it's not too hard for your God to give us a definite sign once in a while himself to restore peoples faith, you know, when he's not busy burning an image of his sons face on pieces of toast.

kael03 · 08-21-2011, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gakure

Yes, it is. U are totally ignoring the argument and going personal on how I write on the interwebz, calling me stupid for writing 'xtian' instead of 'christian'. How is that not pettiness.

You seem to try to avoid answering my question at all turns here. Just explain why, when you're so proud of being "born again" you shorten your faith's name? It's either you're trying to appeal to a certain group for brainwa-er, conversion, you're embarrassed by the flak your cult gets from those of us capable of thinking for ourselves, or you have a mental deficiency. It's a simple choice.

Quote:

BOT. Let me just quote my self again since most have misconstrue my point.

Nono, we get your point. God won't prevent child rape or rape in general, even when such a feat would NOT impede free will, because He wants us to suffer to turn to Him. There's no misconstruing here. God's an attention whore, and a miserable being if he requires suffering for people to turn to him. He could just as easily fix shit and make the world a better place, while maintaining his attention whore persona, and still have people fall to him like sheep to slaughter.

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Nice, u are now getting to the topic. Hell is a temporary place made for Lucifer and his hosts who went against God. Not for humanity. Yours is to chose where u wanna go [though it emphasized u choose life].

I call bullshit. You, yourself, have been pulling the "argument ad infernum" card in every post you've made. You've been spouting that if we don't "convert and believe in Him" we will burn in Hell. Thus, we really don't have a choice in the matter. Therefore, Hell is made for humanity.

Also, Hell is not "a temporary place". It was created to punish Lucifer for questioning God's decision to create Man. Lucifer didn't like that God made Man above angels and rebelled, etc. (we all know the story of the Fall). God then made a realm of fire and torture for Lucifer to reside in for all eternity. Note the last 2 words of that sentence: "all eternity". That is not "temporary". That is until the earth is destroyed by the Sun and the universe collapses in on itself. You can't have a realm to imprison a person, that questioned a deity's decisions, for all eternity, only to call it "temporary". It doesn't work that way.

Your God supposedly granted humans "free will", or the ability to make whatever decision we damn well please. Your God, an all-knowing (meaning he would know there would be those of us that choose to not believe in him), all-loving (meaning he would love us regardless if we choose to not believe in him), all-forgiving (meaning he would forgive those that used the free will He granted to choose to not believe in Him) being created a place of fire and torture for the souls of those that go against him (Lucifer and his host of fallen angels, non-believers, etc).

**Miburo** · 08-25-2011, 09:01 PM

Human Rasengan · 08-27-2011, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

No one is diverting blame away the person committing the evil, they're saying God acts immorally because he doesn't save the victims. They're different things, both being bad. That's why this shit you're saying is being ignored, because it's irrelevant and isn't addressing what we're saying.

But it is about choices, sorta. Like God's choice to watch children be raped instead of helping them. That's a choice He makes. And that's what makes him an immoral asshole. Are you saying that a man watching a child be raped and doesn't help her, despite being fully capable of doing so, is perfectly moral and acceptable?

And don't even try to say it's about god wanting people to have free will. If a police officer stopping a child from being raped doesn't violate the concept of free will, then god doing the same thing wouldn't either. The concept of free will has nothing at all to do with this.

Okay, we can work with this analogy. Yes, I most certainly do allow KYF to post stupid shit. If anyone were to accuse me of that then I would not deny it. It's true, I do allow him to post stupid shit. I am to blame for that.

But I can easily justify my choice to do so. He's posting stupid shit on a narutard forum. That doesn't hurt anyone, so I really don't care. I normally value freedom over the extermination of extremely minor annoyances. Now, if KYF was raping children and I could stop him by banning him, then I'd definitely do that. Because I'm not an immoral scumbag like that thing you worship. See how that works?

Oh, and yeah, that is ironic that you would give God credit for good things happening, while saying He isn't responsible for any bad things happening. Doesn't work like that.

If he helps some people but not others then he's still an asshole. Since he can help everyone, he's an all powerful super deity. Why help a dude survive a car accident, but let a little girl be brutally raped and murdered? And don't think the good counter-acts the bad. It doesn't work that way. A serial killer doesn't suddenly become an okay guy because he also donated to charities and volunteered at homeless shelters in addition to murdering tons of people.

here's a book I read that actually talks about why God "allows" certain.. evil things to happen .. like the rape and murder of an innocent little girl. And how her father gives god the 3rd degree for taking his precious lil Missy.. and along the way invites the reader to question God on the stand and shows a reflection of God's relationship with creation http://theshackbook.com/pages/page1.html

08-11-2011, 06:41 PM	#138
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,600 Thanks: 4,838 Thanked 8,533 Times in 3,782 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first I have a legitimate question about God. If He's all-loving, all-forgiving, gave us the ability to choose, why does he have a special place full of torture and fire for those of us that chose not to believe in Him? He supposedly gave us the ability to choose anything we want, including the choice of whether or not we want to believe in him, but he will send us to be punished for all eternity if we choose to not believe in Him? Give me a logical reason behind the existence of Hell for non-believers.

08-11-2011, 07:54 PM	#139
Skullbat01 ANBU Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: California Posts: 301 Thanks: 263 Thanked 142 Times in 86 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first actually the sad part miburo Lucifer is latin for light bringer lol let that one fuck with some minds right now then go read Et Nox facta est Victor Hugo was quite devout and even he saw the glaring implications __________________ " Though I be shamed, not once did I forget my knightly vows..if I could protect but one person from war's horrors, I would bear any shame...I would bear it proud!" -Basch Von Ronsenburg of Dalmasca, Final Fantasy XII Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

08-18-2011, 05:07 PM	#143
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first I can't believe people take this shit seriously. It's so obviously stupid. Holy fucking shit.

08-18-2011, 05:18 PM	#144
*Demi-God* BEST Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,263 Thanks: 2,811 Thanked 6,859 Times in 2,435 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Religion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. - Ambrose Bierce Word.

08-19-2011, 10:26 AM	#147
*Demi-God* BEST Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,263 Thanks: 2,811 Thanked 6,859 Times in 2,435 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first Evidence plz? Not the ramblings of a woman who claimed God talked to her nor anything from the Bible. Aaaaand go. Or maybe if it's not too hard for your God to give us a definite sign once in a while himself to restore peoples faith, you know, when he's not busy burning an image of his sons face on pieces of toast.

08-25-2011, 09:01 PM	#149
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Jesus, not the first

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