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Old 08-31-2011, 06:09 PM   #196
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
wouldn't any government records by Pontious Pilot or Herod be proof of actions taken against Jesus that would lend credibility to his existence?
Aside from the fact that any records from that time are unlikely to have survived time/wars/fires (there were one or two great fires in the 2000 years since Christ's execution), there is little in the way of evidence that Pilot even existed outside of mythology and the Pilate Stone.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:50 PM   #197
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Aside from the fact that any records from that time are unlikely to have survived time/wars/fires (there were one or two great fires in the 2000 years since Christ's execution), there is little in the way of evidence that Pilot even existed outside of mythology and the Pilate Stone.
Yea you got a point .. but I'm sure that if the dead sea scrolls made it to modern times .. someone somewhere has a record mentioning these people .. I suppose it's either a wait n see deal or they don't exist
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:09 PM   #198
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Wait and see?! I hate that argument.

"Duh, well, we may never know, let's just wait and see to find out... but while we wait, allow us to shape the world, make political, environmental and economical decisions based on what we think to be true but cannot prove. OK with you?"

How about we try and find out and if nothing comes up, let's not act like it is true or even probable and find a new basis for our world view, okay?
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Old 08-31-2011, 11:02 PM   #199
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Re: Jesus, not the first

by all means that's what we should do.. faith in a higher power hasn't stopped human progression all these years so why would it now.

but in the meantime there's enough room on this planet to for a world view .. one of tolerance , one of good will, scientific, technological, and medicinal advancements, and making the world a better place for all who live in it
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Old 08-31-2011, 11:19 PM   #200
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
by all means that's what we should do.. faith in a higher power hasn't stopped human progression all these years so why would it now.
Yeah, it's not any scientists were ever persecuted by religious fanatics for hundreds of years or anything...Oh, wait. :P
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:12 AM   #201
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
by all means that's what we should do.. faith in a higher power hasn't stopped human progression all these years so why would it now.

but in the meantime there's enough room on this planet to for a world view .. one of tolerance , one of good will, scientific, technological, and medicinal advancements, and making the world a better place for all who live in it
It hasn't stopped progression but it's been detrimental to the development of it. In limiting thought, prosecuting those who strive for advancement, being one of the primary causes of conflict in history, encouraging ignorance, retarded absolute morality and so on.

There isn't enough room on this planet for a world view, please, please understand that not every opinion deserves the same amount of tolerance as others. Ignorance needs to be attacked and rightly so. You have the right to an opinion and people have the same right to tell you when and why it's fucking retarded and that it can be damaging, especially when that opinion might end up affecting public policy. A lot of scientific, technological, medicinal, humanitarian and other forms of advancement is held back by various religious. For Christianity, take a look at the prosecution of scientific community and others, at stem cells research, marriage for gay people and the people itself, condoms in Africa (more of the Catholic Church side despite some back peddling in recent years) and many other examples, for Islam just take one look at the Middle-East and Islamic law.

It feeds ignorance and encourages it, a few good deeds which would have been possible even without religion are not enough to hide the stench of bullshit and neither is a "wait and see" approach to it all.
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:14 AM   #202
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Two examples:

Environmental policy: most religious believe that humankind will be rewarded in the next life and that one day god will come down and remake the earth as it is in heaven. Therefore, the earth is not a sacred thing and its destruction is no big deal. Furthermore, some even hold the idea that environmental destruction will actually hasten jesus/god's return. Those in power making decisions surrounding the environment in the name of god are deliberately shortchanging the future of our race and many other species because of "wait and see."

Support for the existence of Israel: A key requirement for the return of god/jesus is a strong, independent Jewish state. Because of this, the religious in western worlds (my leader, especially included) are particularly blind-faith in their support of Israel, often turning a blind eye to any world problems they cause and supplying them with endless money are military arms, helping to destabilize the Arab world. Because they want god back. "Wait and see."
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Old 09-01-2011, 11:23 AM   #203
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Re: Jesus, not the first

@ Miburo: like kael said, any records of the existence of Jesus would be gone by now and I think the Vatican would have special interest on keeping any documents that would prove the nonexistence of Jesus out of public knowledge, because if Christianity was proved to be nothing but a farce, they'd have to either swallow their pride and advertise themselves as Jews or they'd face the mother of all lawsuits for 2000 years for pretty much all crimes from accessory of murder to vandalism.

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by all means that's what we should do.. faith in a higher power hasn't stopped human progression all these years so why would it now.
Then why did the Pope include 3 years ago genetic modification and experiments on humans as 2 of the new 7 mortal sins? That means everyone in my discipline is pretty much destined to Hell because one of the exams to graduate is to make bacteria produce human insulin... you know, that hormone that is vital for everyone or else they'll suffer of Type I diabetes and the people that already suffer from that need that bacterial insulin for their shots or they're pretty much dead?

It is childish to think religions don't interfere with science, because science, the bastion of logic, pretty much nullifies the need for religion and religion adores to put obstacles in the way to avoid loosing even more followers than it already is (for example, the US dropped from 96% of Christians in 1956 to 74% in 2010 and, if the trend continues, it'll be 0% in the middle of the 23rd century).

And even if we don't consider direct rejection of certain scientific methods by religious entities, we always have the damn creationism zombie that refuses to die just because some Sunday School nutjobs don't want to learn.
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:11 PM   #204
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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@ Miburo: like kael said, any records of the existence of Jesus would be gone by now
Assuming any existed in the first place. All I was saying is that even if someone was skeptical of jesus existing it wouldn't be illogical or anything. That's all.


Quote:
(for example, the US dropped from 96% of Christians in 1956 to 74% in 2010 and, if the trend continues, it'll be 0% in the middle of the 23rd century).
Which would be awesome. But yeah, that's like saying some countries are going to go extinct based on fertility rate trends. Just saying I don't think we'll be so lucky as to see that trend you posted continue, unfortunately. It's a big 'if.' = /
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:45 PM   #205
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Which would be awesome. But yeah, that's like saying some countries are going to go extinct based on fertility rate trends. Just saying I don't think we'll be so lucky as to see that trend you posted continue, unfortunately. It's a big 'if.' = /
I'm sure the decline will continue as it has been for a while, but your probably right about it never truly going away. At some point it's likely to level off, where all that's left are diehard fanatics that can't been persuaded with.

I found this cool study by USA Today. It has a nice interactive chart thingy.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...h-survey_N.htm
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:50 PM   #206
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Re: Jesus, not the first

And besides, I'm pretty certain the percentage of Muslims are on the rise, so even if you deplete one group, another will gain control.
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Old 09-01-2011, 05:19 PM   #207
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Given what you guys say about it being logical to doubt... there must be a massive conspiracy going on by some unseen group somewhere that's peddling these various forms of religion as population control.. now that isn't too far fetched
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Old 09-01-2011, 05:31 PM   #208
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Given what you guys say about it being logical to doubt... there must be a massive conspiracy going on by some unseen group somewhere that's peddling these various forms of religion as population control.. now that isn't too far fetched
The main reason religion continues to exist is it gives people an easy form of understanding of the unexplained. They want an easy explanation for various coincidences and phenomena that happen, and a divine plan gives them the most fulfillment in that regard. They refuse to believe in scientific discovery because "it's too hard to understand", and they won't educate themselves to understand the big words you see in the scientific fields.
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Old 09-01-2011, 06:07 PM   #209
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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The main reason religion continues to exist is it gives people an easy form of understanding of the unexplained. They want an easy explanation for various coincidences and phenomena that happen, and a divine plan gives them the most fulfillment in that regard. They refuse to believe in scientific discovery because "it's too hard to understand", and they won't educate themselves to understand the big words you see in the scientific fields.
I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too.. I just don't see how one negates the other. but you're right there is a lot of stuff that has no explanation but on the other hand you have plenty of scientists who are religious.. I guess they fit in the same boat as I, as in those who have some form of spirituality as well as a thirst for science and truth, and that both views can co-exist.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:04 PM   #210
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Dude, don't compare yourself to fucking scientists or say you have a thirst for anything that involves not being all pseudo-intellectualish. Come on, man. You're fucking stupid as shit. Like, way more stupid than anyone would be if they actually put any amount of effort into not being stupid.

But yeah. I dunno the actual reasons people are religious. I'm pretty certain it's not all because it 'answers' some shit. I'm sure some people are brainwashed into that shit since they were little dudes or adorable loli, for example. And I know some awesome dudes that seem pretty smart and kick ass to me that are also religious (By 'some awesome dudes,' I mean just Mal and my old wrestling coach who is a hero among heroes and could effortlessly kill you all with his bare hands. Fuck yeah!). So I dunno.
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