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Old 09-01-2011, 11:24 PM   #211
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Dude, don't compare yourself to fucking scientists or say you have a thirst for anything that involves not being all pseudo-intellectualish.
I remember he once tried to compare himself to people like Socrates and Darwin, and I completely shitted all over that.
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:53 AM   #212
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Which would be awesome. But yeah, that's like saying some countries are going to go extinct based on fertility rate trends. Just saying I don't think we'll be so lucky as to see that trend you posted continue, unfortunately. It's a big 'if.' = /
Fertility can be fixed, religion not so much. And I know it's a big if, but at least there's a light at the end of the global ignorance tunnel.

Quote:
I'm sure the decline will continue as it has been for a while, but your probably right about it never truly going away. At some point it's likely to level off, where all that's left are diehard fanatics that can't been persuaded with.
AMA, religions die. No matter how long or how influential they were, they just drop dead at some time. The Greco-Roman religion lasted almost 1900 years and died, Mesoamerican faiths lasted 2500+ years and went the same way, not to talk about the Ancient Egyptian's religion that lived for more than 3000 years and went extinct, among countless others. And how did they went? Either they were replaced by a newer religion or simply destroyed themselves and Christianity or any current religion isn't immune to that (actually, they face more risks with the imposition of science's logic and the easier access and sharing of knowledge through the media).

Even if Christianity has only the fanatics left in a near future, it'll die for the simple fact those fanatics will basically put themselves aside from society and diminish heavily their chances of propagation. I mean, only a fanatic of a dying religion would bang another fanatic of a dying religion and there's no guarantee that, even if the children are heavily indoctrinated, they'll stick to a corpse of a faith.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:27 AM   #213
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Most people see religion as a bad thing.. some so called religions can be boiled down to a way of life in so many words. various tenets of society outline a way of living.. from personal reflection. peace admiring beauty, taking on certain eating patterns and health"rituals"...

Philosophy or certain "paths of thought" get popular because many see the outcomes of certain rituals as beneficial. meditation or self reflection is good for all human beings.. does this give way to morality.. some feel energized by refraining from eating.. this "fasting" some view as a religious thing.. others see the benefits of allowing the digestive track time to rest , allowing the body more time to rid itself of toxins.

Meditation.. or "Prayer" as some would call reflecting on ones self.. analyzing places in which they would like to see their lives improved.. surely there can be no negatives to that

Have some of these philosophical, moral, and self beneficial rituals gone overboard in their different guises... sure.. but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... human beings should be fully capable of weeding out the good intentions or inherent good .. from all the bullshit that's layered on top of it.

If not television, books , and other forms of propaganda might have more of an influence than I thought
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:01 AM   #214
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Re: Jesus, not the first

If you get rid of all the stupid shit, then it's not going to be called a religion. Definitely not a theistic religion.

Besides, shit like morality aren't exclusive to religion anyway. 'Getting rid' of one doesn't imply getting rid of the other, at all.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:12 AM   #215
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Most people see religion as a bad thing.. some so called religions can be boiled down to a way of life in so many words. various tenets of society outline a way of living.. from personal reflection. peace admiring beauty, taking on certain eating patterns and health"rituals"...

Philosophy or certain "paths of thought" get popular because many see the outcomes of certain rituals as beneficial. meditation or self reflection is good for all human beings.. does this give way to morality.. some feel energized by refraining from eating.. this "fasting" some view as a religious thing.. others see the benefits of allowing the digestive track time to rest , allowing the body more time to rid itself of toxins.

Meditation.. or "Prayer" as some would call reflecting on ones self.. analyzing places in which they would like to see their lives improved.. surely there can be no negatives to that

Have some of these philosophical, moral, and self beneficial rituals gone overboard in their different guises... sure.. but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... human beings should be fully capable of weeding out the good intentions or inherent good .. from all the bullshit that's layered on top of it.

If not television, books , and other forms of propaganda might have more of an influence than I thought
Ugh - another idiotic defense. Religion has good things in it so don't condemn the whole thing. Sorry, a rapist might pay taxes that support the mental rehabilitation of his victim... but he's still a fucking rapist and should be shot or gelded or something.

A) your first sentence is wrong. Most people in this forum think it is bad, but most people in the world agree, follow and worship religion. That's one of the major problems.

B) Baby with the bathwater? Why not? Because major religions have a history of adopting, absorbing and altering existing beliefs and traditions. Such as Christmas, Easter, the returning saviour (HEY! I'm back on topic) myth, the one god of the jewish slaves in Egypt, etc etc. These things existed before religion, along with morality, philosophy, meditation and fasting. You don't need a god or an organization to enjoy or practice any of this crap. Religion arose as a political, military and social control in the dark ages to organize, control and direct nations and peoples to one groups will. They are not chosen by governments or people and hold vast financial stores and like to condemn anyone who doesn't follow their lead. That's a large potential for a lot of evil, like telling people in Africa that condoms spread AIDS, leading to a worsening of the existing epidemic.

See, morality does not necessarily stem from religion at all. I'd never do that... I"m more moral than the pope and I'm not the one who is "infallible."
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Old 09-06-2011, 01:02 PM   #216
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Most people see religion as a bad thing.. some so called religions can be boiled down to a way of life in so many words. various tenets of society outline a way of living.. from personal reflection. peace admiring beauty, taking on certain eating patterns and health"rituals"...
And you can still appreciate the beauty of the world, have certain diets and health "rituals" without religion.

For example, many atheists appreciate the beauty of religious art, like going to Notre Dame in Paris or listen to a requiem, because there's no physical difference between theists and atheists to make the first to perceive beauty and the latter not.

Diets are much more connected to culture rather than religion, being Mediterranean Europe a prime example: you have the same olive & wine basis and the same predominant religion (Catholicism), but you can clearly distinguish French cuisine from the Greek, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish ones. The only thing religion modifies in the diet is forbidding certain foods... pretty much like hypertension and diabetes. I think I'm reaching some epiphany here...

Lastly, health "rituals"? Pardon my ignorance, but what rituals are those? I mean, I know some exist in the Bible, like killing doves to spray the house with blood to prevent leprosy and washing your naughty parts in the nearest river after having a wet dream, but I'll be damned to see any modern Christian doing those rituals.

Quote:
Philosophy or certain "paths of thought" get popular because many see the outcomes of certain rituals as beneficial.
Funny you put Philosophy in the same bag as Religion, because they might be similar to untrained minds, but they are quite different. While philosophy does share some disciplines with religion, like metaphysics and ethics, philosophy is pretty much the mother of science, with disciplines like rationalism, empiricism, skepticism, logic, etc. You see, many disciplines of philosophy aren't "paths of thought" that one can pick or not, they are vital for a truly trained mind.

Quote:
some feel energized by refraining from eating.. this "fasting" some view as a religious thing.. others see the benefits of allowing the digestive track time to rest , allowing the body more time to rid itself of toxins.
What a load of bullshit. Feeling energized by refraining from eating? That only happens when the liver is already wasting its resources to release glucose to the impoverished blood to prevent major organ shutdown, something that none in their right mind should be doing (since an organism doesn't live of glucose alone).

Also, fasting does absolutely nothing about toxin excretion. On the contrary, it only makes things worse, because the kidneys (the main excretory organs) don't filter the blood with only water, it needs sodium, potassium, ammonium, ATP, NADH, among others, and drinking water does not suffice the amounts of those ions/molecules, so fasting too long will most probably damage your kidneys rather than helping them excrete toxins.

And before you even think about it, yes, even "bad" cholesterol is worsened by fasting, because the body produces cholesterol by itself and the regulation of such production depends on the amount of cholesterol in the blood, so low amounts of cholesterol in the blood will promote the production of LDL (the "bad" cholesterol) over HDL (the "good cholesterol"), whereas with normal amounts of cholesterol in the blood HDL's production is the one being promoted. So, tl;dr version: you are screwed by eating unhealthy fats and by not eating any fats at all.

Quote:
meditation or self reflection is good for all human beings.. does this give way to morality..
Quote:
Meditation.. or "Prayer" as some would call reflecting on ones self.. analyzing places in which they would like to see their lives improved.. surely there can be no negatives to that

Have some of these philosophical, moral, and self beneficial rituals gone overboard in their different guises... sure.. but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... human beings should be fully capable of weeding out the good intentions or inherent good .. from all the bullshit that's layered on top of it.
Claiming religion as source of morality... again? I thought I already told you that isn't the case whatsoever, or else mankind would be extinct even before religion was born. The rest is just more reused failed arguments.

Quote:
If not television, books , and other forms of propaganda might have more of an influence than I thought
First, television and books are not propaganda, they're media (which may or may not include propaganda).

Second, "might have"? It's not a subjective matter we're handling, it's pretty much factual: humanity and its accomplishments shape our morality and behavior since we're social beings. It's by interacting with others that we learn such things, be it with our family, study or a dusty millenarian tome. The thing about religion is that as humanity evolves, so does its general behavior and certain aspects of morality and clinging to a clearly outdated set of values only originates trouble.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:36 PM   #217
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
If you get rid of all the stupid shit, then it's not going to be called a religion. Definitely not a theistic religion.

Besides, shit like morality aren't exclusive to religion anyway. 'Getting rid' of one doesn't imply getting rid of the other, at all.
a rose by any other name.. you don't have to call it a religion but weeding out the bullshit would be important... ok for instance one tenant of old school Islam says you have to have a beard.. well that doesn't hold true today.. the previous generations grew long beards to protect their faces from the searing sand of the desert.. somehow this suggestion got thrown outta wack.. if you can look beyond the bullshit you can see where certain "suggestions" were needed.

In Christianity's old testament there are warnings against "un-clean people" looking back at the times and the medicine of that time one would find good reason to stay away from a penis or vagina with an excessive flow.. wouldn't want to catch what they have now would you.. but somehow this "word of wisdom got incorporated into doctrine.. don't we in today's society heed the same warnings for our benefit!
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Ugh - another idiotic defense. Religion has good things in it so don't condemn the whole thing. Sorry, a rapist might pay taxes that support the mental rehabilitation of his victim... but he's still a fucking rapist and should be shot or gelded or something.
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that's a bad analogy seeing as to how you're comparing one thing with implied righteousness with something that is utterly unrighteous
A) your first sentence is wrong. Most people in this forum think it is bad, but most people in the world agree, follow and worship religion. That's one of the major problems.
Quote:
like I said weed out the bullshit and find the underlying meaning
B) Baby with the bathwater? Why not? Because major religions have a history of adopting, absorbing and altering existing beliefs and traditions. Such as Christmas, Easter, the returning saviour (HEY! I'm back on topic) myth, the one god of the jewish slaves in Egypt, etc etc. These things existed before religion, along with morality, philosophy, meditation and fasting. You don't need a god or an organization to enjoy or practice any of this crap.
Quote:
Never said you had to
Religion arose as a political, military and social control in the dark ages to organize, control and direct nations and peoples to one groups will. They are not chosen by governments or people and hold vast financial stores and like to condemn anyone who doesn't follow their lead. That's a large potential for a lot of evil, like telling people in Africa that condoms spread AIDS, leading to a worsening of the existing epidemic.
Quote:
here you say they are political, military, and social control.. that denotes government then you say it's not chosen by the government.. so the people themselves are choosing to socially controll themselves.. which lends credence to the morality issue i bought up earlier.. most religions say do right by others or do unto them as you'd want done to you .. where's the inherent evil puppetry you speak of?
See, morality does not necessarily stem from religion at all. I'd never do that... I"m more moral than the pope and I'm not the one who is "infallible."
Quote:
I never said it if you go back and read you'll see that I was getting at certain moral standards leading itself into becoming a religion.. or "way of life" as I think I put it. for instance.. a group of moral standards propagated by one individual seems appealing to another and then another .. soon this grows into a sect and once shit hits critical mass it gets called a religion.. Confucius only added to what Socrates left behind and Jesus only added to things that were there before him
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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
And you can still appreciate the beauty of the world, have certain diets and health "rituals" without religion.

For example, many atheists appreciate the beauty of religious art, like going to Notre Dame in Paris or listen to a requiem, because there's no physical difference between theists and atheists to make the first to perceive beauty and the latter not.
Quote:
Exactly!
Diets are much more connected to culture rather than religion, being Mediterranean Europe a prime example: you have the same olive & wine basis and the same predominant religion (Catholicism), but you can clearly distinguish French cuisine from the Greek, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish ones. The only thing religion modifies in the diet is forbidding certain foods... pretty much like hypertension and diabetes. I think I'm reaching some epiphany here...
Quote:
Great!
Lastly, health "rituals"? Pardon my ignorance, but what rituals are those? I mean, I know some exist in the Bible, like killing doves to spray the house with blood to prevent leprosy and washing your naughty parts in the nearest river after having a wet dream, but I'll be damned to see any modern Christian doing those rituals.
Quote:
Fasting as I stated earlier is a ritual that has health benefits and both Christians and Muslims practice fasting

Funny you put Philosophy in the same bag as Religion, because they might be similar to untrained minds, but they are quite different. While philosophy does share some disciplines with religion, like metaphysics and ethics, philosophy is pretty much the mother of science, with disciplines like rationalism, empiricism, skepticism, logic, etc. You see, many disciplines of philosophy aren't "paths of thought" that one can pick or not, they are vital for a truly trained mind.
Quote:
again I implore you to realize that Plato, Socrates and Confucius had "followers" if you follow Confucius' "path of thought" you're labeled as a Confucian .. much in the same manner those who follow Jesus' teachings are labeled "Christians"

What a load of bullshit. Feeling energized by refraining from eating? That only happens when the liver is already wasting its resources to release glucose to the impoverished blood to prevent major organ shutdown, something that none in their right mind should be doing (since an organism doesn't live of glucose alone).

Also, fasting does absolutely nothing about toxin excretion. On the contrary, it only makes things worse, because the kidneys (the main excretory organs) don't filter the blood with only water, it needs sodium, potassium, ammonium, ATP, NADH, among others, and drinking water does not suffice the amounts of those ions/molecules, so fasting too long will most probably damage your kidneys rather than helping them excrete toxins.

And before you even think about it, yes, even "bad" cholesterol is worsened by fasting, because the body produces cholesterol by itself and the regulation of such production depends on the amount of cholesterol in the blood, so low amounts of cholesterol in the blood will promote the production of LDL (the "bad" cholesterol) over HDL (the "good cholesterol"), whereas with normal amounts of cholesterol in the blood HDL's production is the one being promoted. So, tl;dr version: you are screwed by eating unhealthy fats and by not eating any fats at all.
Quote:
the bold and underlined part is what's important.. lets take this slowly.. Dr. atkins approved a method of eating that he saw as beneficial to the body.. whether it was true or not people followed the Atkins diet. In Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, they all have "diets, some don't eat pork and others shellfish. consuming animals who are basically the "livers of the earth" through their manner of eating trash n shit .. why would it be a good thing to put those animals with their toxin laden bodies into your already toxic body. Now these religions say that "God" doesn't want you to eat them so that people will obey these.. but you have free will to either eat the toxic crap or don't it's your choice.. regardless of you being a believer or not.. the science behind the diets would remain the same

Claiming religion as source of morality... again? I thought I already told you that isn't the case whatsoever, or else mankind would be extinct even before religion was born. The rest is just more reused failed arguments.
Quote:
I'm claiming the opposite.. that morality gives rise to "life paths" which give rise to sects which in turn become religions

First, television and books are not propaganda, they're media (which may or may not include propaganda).

Second, "might have"? It's not a subjective matter we're handling, it's pretty much factual: humanity and its accomplishments shape our morality and behavior since we're social beings. It's by interacting with others that we learn such things, be it with our family, study or a dusty millenarian tome. The thing about religion is that as humanity evolves, so does its general behavior and certain aspects of morality and clinging to a clearly outdated set of values only originates trouble.
Quote:
Like you said religions evolve.. but first lets take a look at the social beings part.. as social beings Life paths or religions as some call the more extreme of these are shared by finding a common ground of morality or belief system if you will.. those who don't believe in a God share that belief in a circle we call atheists and different moral and belief groups gather together wanting to be around other like minded individuals in various forms from Mormonism, Baptist< Lutheran, Catholic, Sunni, Shiite, ect. this grouping together and becoming organized is what creates religion. Now once again if we could evolve and look through the bullshit we might be able to find some common ground on which to stand!
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:42 PM   #218
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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a rose by any other name.. you don't have to call it a religion but weeding out the bullshit would be important... ok for instance one tenant of old school Islam says you have to have a beard.. well that doesn't hold true today.. the previous generations grew long beards to protect their faces from the searing sand of the desert.. somehow this suggestion got thrown outta wack.. if you can look beyond the bullshit you can see where certain "suggestions" were needed.
A rose by any other name? Just throwing that out randomly without knowing what it means, eh? Eh. We're not talking about name changes here. If you take all the stuff out of a sandwich except for the roll, then you have a roll. A roll isn't a sandwich with another name. It's not a sandwich at all, in any way. We already have a name for what it is. It's a fucking roll.

Of course, whoosh. You example is stupid. How about we talk about something other than getting rid of growing a manly beard rule (Probably one of the better parts about Islam, I would guess. Not sure why you'd want to get rid of that...)? Like their irrational belief in some magic sky man and everything involving him. Get rid of that. That's not Islam by some other name. It's not Islam. It's just a story about some asshole going around and raping his nine year old wife. Just like a roll isn't a sandwich. Get what I'm saying? Rhetorical question, of course you don't. Go play with some lego or something more your speed, retard.


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Old 09-06-2011, 06:46 PM   #219
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Go play with some lego or something more your speed, retard.
I think Legos are way beyond his ability (not to mention I still like building shit with legos). He might be ready for Lincoln logs, though.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:10 PM   #220
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Better play it safe: Play-Doh with adult supervision.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:26 PM   #221
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Re: Jesus, not the first

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
A rose by any other name? Just throwing that out randomly without knowing what it means, eh? Eh. We're not talking about name changes here. If you take all the stuff out of a sandwich except for the roll, then you have a roll. A roll isn't a sandwich with another name. It's not a sandwich at all, in any way. We already have a name for what it is. It's a fucking roll.

Of course, whoosh. You example is stupid. How about we talk about something other than getting rid of growing a manly beard rule (Probably one of the better parts about Islam, I would guess. Not sure why you'd want to get rid of that...)? Like their irrational belief in some magic sky man and everything involving him. Get rid of that. That's not Islam by some other name. It's not Islam. It's just a story about some asshole going around and raping his nine year old wife. Just like a roll isn't a sandwich. Get what I'm saying? Rhetorical question, of course you don't. Go play with some lego or something more your speed, retard.


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I fully understand what the "rose by any other name" saying means which is why I used it.. you call it toh- may-to I call it toh-mah-toe point is it's still a red fruit used in salads and BLT sandwiches. a Person can follow all the teachings of Christ and not identify or call themselves a christian.. but in the case there is an afterlife.. that person would end up in the same place regardless off what he calls himself.

Now taking the bullshit out of religion wouldn't make it less of a religion in fact it would make it pure

Oh and on Islam they don't believe in a sky man .. they believe in either a being without definition such as the case of Sunni Muslims and on the other end of the spectrum a Man of flesh and bone In the Nation of Islam.. something that is also shared by the christian sect of Mormonism.

Now are there bad people of Islamic and Christian faith.. sure.. but you can't paint all with such a broad brush.. that's like saying everyone on this forum is a Narutard just because one finds an example of a narutard on the forum and then assuming all on the forum are narutards!


Mibs if you don't see that I responded to everything you said then maybe you're not as smart as you think you are.. just saying something doesn't make it true.. you of all people should know this by now
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlzx4...&feature=share

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LOL I'M DYING BACK HERE

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Old 09-06-2011, 08:38 PM   #222
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Why did you quote me? You didn't respond to anything I said.

I'm so glad I'm not you.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:18 PM   #223
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Oh and on Islam they don't believe in a sky man ..
Um...yes they do. Allah is Arabic for "God". Allah is to Muslims as God is to Christians: an all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the universe and stands as judge to mankind. To the Muslims, his reality is mystery.

Quote:
they believe in either a being without definition such as the case of Sunni Muslims and on the other end of the spectrum a Man of flesh and bone In the Nation of Islam..
Um...no. The main difference between Sunnis and Shiites is that the Sunnis follow Mohammad's life, almost literally, whereas the Shiites believe that Allah is the only one that can choose a person to safeguard Islam. The Shiites also believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib is the true first of the Twelve Imams, and thus is the true successor of Mohammad.

Quote:
something that is also shared by the christian sect of Mormonism.
Wait wait wait waitwaitwait...are you serious? You can't be that stupid to think that the Mormons believe that God is a being of flesh and bone. No one can be that stupid. The Mormons don't believe that. They believe that God is the same entity as all other religions, an omnipotent being. The only difference is they believe that God, and Eden, resides on a planet close to the center of the Milky Way. They also believe that only a select few, selected from birth, will have the "password" to get into God's special tree fort.

Seriously, give it up. You've clearly shown you have no idea what the hell you're talking about at any given time. I remember you claimed your dad was Muslim, obviously that's not the case because you don't know shit about your supposed patriarch's religion. This doesn't help your case, just as saying your dad was Muslim, but you mom was christian (Shariah law wouldn't allow that).
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:36 PM   #224
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Seriously, give it up. You've clearly shown you have no idea what the hell you're talking about at any given time. I remember you claimed your dad was Muslim, obviously that's not the case because you don't know shit about your supposed patriarch's religion. This doesn't help your case, just as saying your dad was Muslim, but you mom was christian (Shariah law wouldn't allow that).
So HR's dad is a Muslim? Cool Maybe he should volunteer HR for suicide bombing classes. :] I can just picture him running into a crowded marketplace yelling "Show Human Rasengan your Katon". la-la-la-la, BOOM!
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:08 PM   #225
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Re: Jesus, not the first

Jesus born December 25th? Lol fail. Not the first, most definitely. HR, I am pretty sure you aren't serious. I mean everyone knows Allah=God in Muslim Belief? Stop fucking around lmao. If you were serious then ummm...............yeah.
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