Us government's trick to violate civil liberties - Page 40

OG · 02-10-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubborn_d0nkey

He (sometimes) seems to be implying that freedom of speech grants him the right to have a discussion the way he wants, not just what freedom of speech grants a person. If he really does think that, the simplification is a step in the right direction, a stepping stone to him understanding what freedom of religion really is.

In such circumstances, when somebody might have such an exaggerated notion of what freedom of speech really is, the simplification is, imo, an acceptable evil on the path to enlightenment, since its easier to grasp and even if the person doesn't come to realize what freedom of speech really is and gets stuck at the simplification they at least have a much better grasp of what freedom of speech is.

Though. if the other person's notion is closer to what freedom of speech really is than the simplification definitely becomes an unacceptable evil and I wouldn't use it in such circumstances.

im not saying define freedom of speech, because its a really vague amendment proven with the many court cases involving it, all im saying is, no it does not cover everything you say,[like telling a kid, no you can't say fuck you in the ass] that isnt complicated to understand, if u were to say, yes it means you can say anything you want, he'll never get it later on when u tell him its not, its better to start off with telling him its not.

// this is experience from telling KIDS how things work, i think i know what it means to simplify things so they understand, but also get the concept that yes it is this way but it doesnt stop there. once he gets that, later on hell ask the questions WHY is it like that, ie like a kid who has reached the age of being curious and asking why to everything. before this point they just accept what u tell them. this is where this guy is at. he's not at the "why" part, he's at the stage where he thinks this is this, theres no reasoning.

stubborn_d0nkey · 02-10-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OG

im not saying define freedom of speech, because its a really vague amendment proven with the many court cases involving it, all im saying is, no it does not cover everything you say,[like telling a kid, no you can't say fuck you in the ass] that isnt complicated to understand, if u were to say, yes it means you can say anything you want, he'll never get it later on when u tell him its not, its better to start off with telling him its not.

// this is experience from telling KIDS how things work, i think i know what it means to simplify things so they understand, but also get the concept that yes it is this way but it doesnt stop there. once he gets that, later on hell ask the questions WHY is it like that, ie like a kid who has reached the age of being curious and asking why to everything. before this point they just accept what u tell them. this is where this guy is at. he's not at the "why" part, he's at the stage where he thinks this is this, theres no reasoning.

Yeah, I know kids are like that, and everything said to them has the potential to stick (for a while), but isn't almightywood supposed to be an adult (at least age-wise)?

I know I wouldn't tell a kid that freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want (though I'd probably just add that it's with some restrictions).

almightywood · 02-10-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OG

i hope you know freedom of speech does not protect everything you say.

pretty tired of people thinking it gives them the "right" to say anything they want

//also, muro is right, its freedom of assembly that lets u gather with other folks for a discussion, but its freedom of speech that allows u to talk about things, unless u are just having a discussion with urself. but i think your focus was on discussion with other people, so its assembly.

My focus was on nothing, Miburo's the one who was focusing on some asinine version of his reality. I actually stated that even in freedom of speech the type of speech can still be restricted.

My POINT was that without freedom of speech those people couldn't have those rallies to talk about controversial things where they get to kick people out for going against the status quo.
Whether or not the right to assembly applies too doesn't change my point at all: If they didn't have the freedom of speech they wouldn't be allowed to talk about that shit, let alone have an assembly. So yes freedom of speech allows them to do that. Nitpicking bullshit is just that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubborn_d0nkey

I dont think I see this, could you please elaborate on what you mean by this?

Is the problem with them somehow restricting you from writing what you want? If so, how? Are they deleting/altering your posts, or is it something else?

Is the problem with what/how they are posting? Did you mean that they are interfering with your freedom of speech by not discussing the way you want?

I mean they are interfering with my freedom of speech by harassing me. If you went and started hurling insults at people for what they believe after they had told you that you their beliefs weren't up for debate, you could get arrested for harassment regardless of your freedom of speech. Normally in this situation you would go to the cops, but surprise surprise one of the cops is in the harassment gang.

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Originally Posted by Mal

If you were consistent in your philosophy then you could have given a simple yes or no answer. The fact that you can't actually answer my question, and have to talk yourself around it, makes the flaws in your reasoning obvious. If determining validity is private, then who are you to decide for me what is right or wrong?

Of course I'm trying to get you to go against what you said, it's one of many perfectly acceptable ways to show inconsistency and error in your claims.

Exactly, it's one of many standard TOOLS OF DEBATE.

It's just you being disrespectful, not at all you being clever.

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Originally Posted by Miburo

No, it doesn't. It lets you personally say whatever you want, within reason. That's it. It doesn't grant you the ability to have other people discuss things with you in the way you desire. Like SD said, that would limit our ability to say whatever we want; limit our freedom of speech.

Which usually doesn't include harassing people about what they believe after they have repeatedly told you it's none of your business.

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No shit, which is why I said people throwing you out of their private property has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Looks like you missed the point there. Freedom of speech applies on private property too, as evidenced by the fact that people can get arrested for what they say IN THEIR OWN HOMES in other countries.

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No I didn't. Where did I say that?

Go back and look at where you said we should apply the train of thought following the concept of a political/religious rally/service.

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I don't start off disrespecting everyone either. Again, our 'respect is earned' way of things isn't really much different than your way.

That's the problem you should start off disrespecting noone. Since you like to bring up asinine analogies of things that are wrong. You are discriminating using the same kind of thinking that would have someone cross to the other side of the street because they saw a black person coming. You are judging a book by its cover which makes you an immoral human being for not finding out the truth before you go into asshole mode.

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When I first came into this thread I wasn't even addressing you. You didn't treat me any different than I would have treated someone who wasn't being an idiot. You didn't express your respect for me before I started disrespecting you or anything. The way I treat people I neither respect nor think poorly of is basically the same way you treat people that you supposedly respect.

I didn't start off disrespecting you. My first response to you was entirely respectful even though I wouldn't say your first post was to me. I still gave you the benefit of the doubt though I shouldn't have bothered, you've done nothing but continuously prove that you are immensely disrespectful for no valid reason over and over.

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Again, the only difference between the way we operate and the way you operate is the criteria we use to determine who deserves respect. Oh, and our way doesn't grant us an unjustified sense of entitlement or involve other people following our personal rules regarding respect. If you weren't such a close-minded immature douche it would be pretty easy to see that our way of doing things is far from being without merit.

See here's the difference, you are always deciding who to give your respect, holding it back like it's some precious fucking resource, instead of just what every average DECENT HUMAN BEING gives out as a matter of course. But no we have this guy who thinks its perfectly ok in his role as keeper of the peace to come along and make fun of someone for being conflicted about his part in his friend's death. Yes, you are such a fucking righteous example of morality. You are the most immoral man I have ever met. I have treated you like absolute shit to get you the fuck away from me.

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Except I don't randomly throw insults around. So I guess not.

The fuck you don't, you're rather deluded about what you do and don't do.

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Oh, and the "U TOO" defense isn't the best way to demonstrate that you're not an immature man-child...

I wasn't trying to imply that I had been being mature, as a matter of fact I was agreeing that I wasn't, and saying I don't give a shit, I am immature with immature people, cope.

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Yes. The golden rule in reverse. What would be the opposite of what Jesus would do. Very moral and mature of you.

The golden rule is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

When you throw it into reverse, it basically goes: Do unto others as they would be done unto.

ACt · 02-10-2012, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightywood

The golden rule is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

When you throw it into reverse, it basically goes: Do unto others as they would be done unto.

You've said this before in this thread and I believe Mal correctly pointed out - if you follow the golden rule, you cannot follow its reverse without violating it. If you would treat others kindly, because that's what you want to have in return, but then are treated rudely in return, to then decide to treat people rudely back (while believing in the Golden Rule), means that you would have people treat you rudely, justifying their initial response.

So which rule do you believe in?

Oh, and we don't talk to babies in annoying little voices because that's how babies are, so your analogy is completely off. We talk to them in annoying little voices to get their attention and entertain them because their brains are still an amorphous, developing sponge. Exaggerated tones help get emotions across, like we do with pets - sharp, loud noises for distemper, higher pitched noises for approval. That said, I'm going to speak normally to my children as much as possible.

stubborn_d0nkey · 02-10-2012, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightywood

I mean they are interfering with my freedom of speech by harassing me. If you went and started hurling insults at people for what they believe after they had told you that you their beliefs weren't up for debate, you could get arrested for harassment regardless of your freedom of speech. Normally in this situation you would go to the cops, but surprise surprise one of the cops is in the harassment gang.

That wouldn't be an infringement of your freedom of speech. All it could be is harassment (though I want to remain neutral on whether harassment has occurred in this thread since I didn't read all of it). Them harassing you doesn't stop you from posting, you can, and still, post regardless of any harassment that may be happening. Your freedom of speech hasn't been breached.

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightywood

The golden rule is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

When you throw it into reverse, it basically goes: Do unto others as they would be done unto.

I'm confused, doesn't what you wrote mean "treat others as they would like to be treated"? I have a headache so that might be the issue.

ACt · 02-10-2012, 01:28 PM

He did. I think what he meant was "Do unto others as they do unto you" which would be the opposite.

**Miburo** · 02-10-2012, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightywood

That's the problem you should start off disrespecting noone. Since you like to bring up asinine analogies of things that are wrong. You are discriminating using the same kind of thinking that would have someone cross to the other side of the street because they saw a black person coming. You are judging a book by its cover which makes you an immoral human being for not finding out the truth before you go into asshole mode.

I didn't start off disrespecting you. My first response to you was entirely respectful even though I wouldn't say your first post was to me. I still gave you the benefit of the doubt though I shouldn't have bothered, you've done nothing but continuously prove that you are immensely disrespectful for no valid reason over and over.

See here's the difference, you are always deciding who to give your respect, holding it back like it's some precious fucking resource, instead of just what every average DECENT HUMAN BEING gives out as a matter of course. But no we have this guy who thinks its perfectly ok in his role as keeper of the peace to come along and make fun of someone for being conflicted about his part in his friend's death. Yes, you are such a fucking righteous example of morality. You are the most immoral man I have ever met. I have treated you like absolute shit to get you the fuck away from me.

Yeah, that's what I said. I don't start off disrespecting anyone. I'm indifferent towards people until they demonstrate they're worthy of respect, or in your case demonstrate that they're idiots who don't deserve respect.

That doesn't imply that I'm going to be uncivil with people until they prove they're worthy of my respect or anything. It's not like you were like "Hey, nice to meet you, I'm AW" and I respond by calling you a fucking dumbshit. You were posting a lot of nonsense and insulting people I do respect, apparently over some stupid grudge. You were being an idiot and a douche bag. Why exactly should I respect you for that?

And yes, I don't want to cheapen the concept of respect by respecting every random nobody and idiot I encounter. If I respect people that do great shit like those involved in Médecins Sans Frontières as much as I respect racists and shit then my respect is pretty fucking meaningless. Your entire concept of respect doesn't mean shit.

And yeah, if you egg your friend into doing something that killed him because you're an ignorant pile of shit, yet still have the nerve to be adamantly dedicated to remaining an ignorant pile of shit then I'm going to say that's not a good thing. Am I wrong? Do you think provoking people to do life threatening things out of your own ignorance is a good thing? If it's not, then what's the problem? Sorry if me thinking it's bad that pressuring people into doing things that will kill them hurts your fragile feelings, you pansy. I'll try to be more considerate of your feelings than you were with your friend's life. Jackass.

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The fuck you don't, you're rather deluded about what you do and don't do.

I wasn't trying to imply that I had been being mature, as a matter of fact I was agreeing that I wasn't, and saying I don't give a shit, I am immature with immature people, cope.

Again, my insults aren't random.

And since my point was that you are an immature twat, and you agree, then there's nothing left to discuss regarding that issue.

almightywood · 02-10-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubborn_d0nkey

That wouldn't be an infringement of your freedom of speech. All it could be is harassment (though I want to remain neutral on whether harassment has occurred in this thread since I didn't read all of it). Them harassing you doesn't stop you from posting, you can, and still, post regardless of any harassment that may be happening. Your freedom of speech hasn't been breached.

That's a matter of opinion. If someone is getting harassed for exercising their right, and nothing can be done about it because the authorities are in on the harassment, I would call that an infringement of the right.

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I'm confused, doesn't what you wrote mean "treat others as they would like to be treated"? I have a headache so that might be the issue.

Well it's really the reverse combined with the thought that everyone is using the golden rule.

But yeah that's what it means.
If they are using the golden rule, they are treating me the way they want to be treated. So since I obviously am not going to be treated with the respect that I want from these jokers, I'll give them the level of respect they want instead.

**Miburo** · 02-10-2012, 01:49 PM

I treat others how I would like to be treated.

If I was being ridiculously stupid I would want people to demonstrate exactly how I was being ridiculously stupid and insult me.

So treating me the way I treat you would involve me being a total fucking moron first, you demonstrating how I was being a fucking moron, and then insulting me. Which isn't the case. You're being justifiably insulted for being an idiot, and you respond by being a spiteful retard.

No golden rule / reverse golden rule going on here from your end, AW. Cut the shit.

almightywood · 02-10-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

Yeah, that's what I said. I don't start off disrespecting anyone. I'm indifferent towards people until they demonstrate they're worthy of respect, or in your case demonstrate that they're idiots who don't deserve respect.

That doesn't imply that I'm going to be uncivil with people until they prove they're worthy of my respect or anything. It's not like you were like "Hey, nice to meet you, I'm AW" and I respond by calling you a fucking dumbshit. You were posting a lot of nonsense and insulting people I do respect, apparently over some stupid grudge. You were being an idiot and a douche bag. Why exactly should I respect you for that?

And yes, I don't want to cheapen the concept of respect by respecting every random nobody and idiot I encounter. If I respect people that do great shit like those involved in Médecins Sans Frontières as much as I respect racists and shit then my respect is pretty fucking meaningless. Your entire concept of respect doesn't mean shit.

I think you mean honoring people. Honoring people is not the same thing as respecting them, that is something that should be used with discrimination, but respect should be given out universally. It's just egotistical to think that your way is right and theirs is wrong when you couldn't possibly understand what it means, the only way to understand another man is to walk a mile in his shoes. Respect is acknowledgement of your own fallibility. Disrespect is proof that you think you are infallible.

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And yeah, if you egg your friend into doing something that killed him because you're an ignorant pile of shit, yet still have the nerve to be adamantly dedicated to remaining an ignorant pile of shit then I'm going to say that's not a good thing. Am I wrong? Do you think provoking people to do life threatening things out of your own ignorance is a good thing? If it's not, then what's the problem? Sorry if me thinking it's bad that pressuring people into doing things that will kill them hurts your fragile feelings, you pansy. I'll try to be more considerate of your feelings than you were with your friend's life. Jackass.

You are a worthless piece of shit. I was ignorant at the time yes. Ignorant in that I iiked to think operate under the assumption that whatever I had decided was the most likely solution was the way to go. My operating in that fashion led me to insult someone for being a coward or the like because things weren't proceeding in the fashion I liked.
I was ignorant, I was acting like you act.
I was acting like I wasn't ignorant, which is way more ignorant than acting ignorant. That's how I killed him
I now refuse to act in the ignorant fashion that brought about my friends death, and it is for this very reason that you attempt to persecute me. To me your words are like signposts of what never to do to be an upstanding moral human being.

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Again, my insults aren't random.

And since my point was that you are an immature twat, and you agree, then there's nothing left to discuss regarding that issue.

Random/unprovoked same difference in my opinion.

You brought it up acting like you were more mature than me. I still beg to differ on that, the fact that I started off being respectful towards you and you started off being disrespectful towards me proves that. If you want me to deal with you like a man, start treating me like one. Give the respect back that I gave you to begin with, otherwise you're a spoiled fucking brat who deserves to be treated like one, period.

ACt · 02-10-2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almightywood

Well it's really the reverse combined with the thought that everyone is using the golden rule.

But yeah that's what it means.
If they are using the golden rule, they are treating me the way they want to be treated. So since I obviously am not going to be treated with the respect that I want from these jokers, I'll give them the level of respect they want instead.

So while you believe in the golden rule, you are fully open to violate it because people are asking for it? Or you don't believe in the golden rule and are just going to react to how you are being treated, regardless of whether or not it is your fault?

If it is the first, you can't care how you are treated because even though you profess to believe to do unto others as you would have done onto you, you're OK with breaking with that to punish others who don't give you the respect you think you deserve (and in the process, earn how you were poorly treated).

If it is the latter, you're a moron, essentially asking for respect on a whim and prepared to muck it up with people who don't just think you're worthy or respect or awesome and some shit.

The golden rule is supposed to work that you treat people well regardless of what utter douchebags they are because that is how you feel you should be treated. I.e. I treat people well because I want to be treated well in return and regardless of how others treat me, I will continue to treat others well. It does not become a tit for tat, pissing contest because you don't think you got the respect or treatment you deserve.

ACt · 02-10-2012, 02:10 PM

Also, what if you encounter someone who doesn't follow the golden rule? How do you treat them?

almightywood · 02-10-2012, 02:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Miburo

I treat others how I would like to be treated.

Then I've been doing right by you.

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If I was being ridiculously stupid I would want people to demonstrate exactly how I was being ridiculously stupid and insult me.

Throwing insults before you know all the facts could lead to people dying, that's pretty fucking stupid and irresponsible, You're a horrible human being.

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So treating me the way I treat you would involve me being a total fucking moron first, you demonstrating how I was being a fucking moron, and then insulting me. Which isn't the case. You're being justifiably insulted for being an idiot, and you respond by being a spiteful retard.

You mean you purposefully come in and insult anything that sounds the least bit wrong to you in some sort of bohemian effort to extract information from people while claiming that you are being the upstanding civil one in the whole deal? I've done my best to treat you as shitty as you treat the general populace, but you know, It's not really my field of expertise, so sorry if I'm not doing it justice in your opinion.

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No golden rule / reverse golden rule going on here from your end, AW. Cut the shit.

There's no shit to cut, unless we are talking about you, you piece of shit.

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Originally Posted by ACt

So while you believe in the golden rule, you are fully open to violate it because people are asking for it? Or you don't believe in the golden rule and are just going to react to how you are being treated, regardless of whether or not it is your fault?

If it is the first, you can't care how you are treated because even though you profess to believe to do unto others as you would have done onto you, you're OK with breaking with that to punish others who don't give you the respect you think you deserve (and in the process, earn how you were poorly treated).

If it is the latter, you're a moron, essentially asking for respect on a whim and prepared to muck it up with people who don't just think you're worthy or respect or awesome and some shit.

The golden rule is supposed to work that you treat people well regardless of what utter douchebags they are because that is how you feel you should be treated. I.e. I treat people well because I want to be treated well in return and regardless of how others treat me, I will continue to treat others well. It does not become a tit for tat, pissing contest because you don't think you got the respect or treatment you deserve.

I've never denied that I am stubborn and vengeful. Everyone has bad qualities.

I apply the golden rule to start with, but if you wind up with a bunch of asshole moochers you have to stop doing so to get rid of them. Or are you saying that believing in the golden rule means that you must pauper yourself to the first person that asks?

I basically have a damn near unlimited amount of consideration for anyone who isn't being an asshole to me. I have a bit for those guys, (since I believe it is right to do so) but it runs out quick, I can't keep doing something my heart isn't in forever just because my head tells me it is right.

ACt · 02-10-2012, 02:48 PM

Well, I won't: I don't follow the golden rule. But you say you do, except when you're forced not to. Which means, you really don't.

EDIT: Also, your inability to understand Miburo's position is pretty hilarious. It's rather clear as day: he treats people the same as he meets them, if they come across as intelligent and respectful, he treats them such; if they come across stupid and belligerent, he treats them accordingly. If they willfully persist in moronic or obtrusive behaviour, he pretty much insults, taunts and disrespects them.

The very fact that your own language has becoming increasingly insulting as you apparently do unto him as he does unto others and STILL misunderstand how he goes about his internet business is such a joke.

ask me anything · 02-10-2012, 02:49 PM

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Originally Posted by almightywood

T
Throwing insults before you know all the facts could lead to people dying, that's pretty fucking stupid and irresponsible, You're a horrible human being.

Don't be a drama queen. Nothing that anybody can say to anyone here can lead to them dying. Unless your talking about committing suicide, in which case that shits on you.

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I've done my best to treat you as shitty as you treat the general populace, but you know, It's not really my field of expertise, so sorry if I'm not doing it justice in your opinion.

So you admit that you're going out of your way to be an ass to people. Wow, you certainly are the epitome of integrity aren't you.

And who's the general populace you speak of? I thought you said there were just 20 crying weebo's that were too afraid to speak up. Since there is obviously a lot more then 20 people on this forum, then the majority of people would tell Mibs to go fuck himself, if they thought he was being an unnecessary douche. Going by how that's not happening (other then from you), I'd say your totally in the wrong on the subject.

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There's no shit to cut, unless we are talking about you, you piece of shit.

So much integrity. It's truly overwhelming.

02-10-2012, 01:28 PM	#591
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,249 Thanks: 5,321 Thanked 18,674 Times in 4,842 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties He did. I think what he meant was "Do unto others as they do unto you" which would be the opposite. __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

02-10-2012, 01:49 PM	#594
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties I treat others how I would like to be treated. If I was being ridiculously stupid I would want people to demonstrate exactly how I was being ridiculously stupid and insult me. So treating me the way I treat you would involve me being a total fucking moron first, you demonstrating how I was being a fucking moron, and then insulting me. Which isn't the case. You're being justifiably insulted for being an idiot, and you respond by being a spiteful retard. No golden rule / reverse golden rule going on here from your end, AW. Cut the shit.

02-10-2012, 02:10 PM	#597
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,249 Thanks: 5,321 Thanked 18,674 Times in 4,842 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties Also, what if you encounter someone who doesn't follow the golden rule? How do you treat them? __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

02-10-2012, 02:48 PM	#599
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,249 Thanks: 5,321 Thanked 18,674 Times in 4,842 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties Well, I won't: I don't follow the golden rule. But you say you do, except when you're forced not to. Which means, you really don't. EDIT: Also, your inability to understand Miburo's position is pretty hilarious. It's rather clear as day: he treats people the same as he meets them, if they come across as intelligent and respectful, he treats them such; if they come across stupid and belligerent, he treats them accordingly. If they willfully persist in moronic or obtrusive behaviour, he pretty much insults, taunts and disrespects them. The very fact that your own language has becoming increasingly insulting as you apparently do unto him as he does unto others and STILL misunderstand how he goes about his internet business is such a joke. __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour. Last edited by ACt; 02-10-2012 at 02:52 PM.

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