homosexuality is it just...... - Page 2

kael03 · 04-09-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

I'm not saying that climax of the sexual activities had anything to do with the fall of all of those societies,

Actually, you are. Especially when you point out the sexual activities and then say that the fall of those civilizations fell soon after.

Quote:

but it is interesting looking at the timeframe of when sexuality reached its peak, and how soon the civilization fell.

Except the data doesn't even support a correlative conclusion. Rome fell 300 years after it reached its sexual peak. The sexual peak =/= the fall of the civilization.

Quote:

with rome, there are several factors. politics, spreading an army too thin, uprisings. you mentioned several reasons for sparta. with egypt and japan (edo period more specifically), i too, doubt sexuality was the source of the downfall, it's just interesting to look at those timeframes, that is all.

@Bolded: then why the hell did you make a post specifically citing sexual "deviance" and try to make the conclusion that said deviance was intertwined with the civilizations' downfalls? When Num clearly pointed out that they weren't and a little bit of research would've led you to the same conclusion as him.

jekyl_hyde · 04-09-2012, 02:47 PM

ever heard the saying, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.

what do you define as the fall of rome? because hell, what do you define as the birth of rome? because if you're talking about democratic rome (which is a laughable statement, but that's what several historians call it) only lasted circa 200 years. rome was the first true democracy to the known world. that is what i'm referring to. at its sexual peak, you have orgies, homosexuality, beastiality, some weird shit going on. you had celebritism going on. you also had political corruption, and what was once the greatest army on the face of the earth, becoming stretched too thin to patrol it's borders. enter the germanic tribes, mongols, and muslims. boom, fall of rome.

when a lot of people refer to rome in the past, they're talking about democratic rome, when it was ran by its senate, and caesar was a figurehead. not the other way around, when rome was a monarchy. which this in and of itself opens a whole new can of worms, which can get really difficult.

back to the point, do i think the peak of sexuality played some role in each demise no matter how small, yes. Do i think it was the source, no.

Numinous · 04-09-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

I'm not saying that climax of the sexual activities had anything to do with the fall of all of those societies, but it is interesting looking at the timeframe of when sexuality reached its peak, and how soon the civilization fell.

Soon? Centuries after the fact for you is "soon"? Sparta had its sexual peak in the IV Century BC and only fell IV century AC. That's 700~800 between the events. It also took centuries for Rome and Ancient Egypt.

Also, you got it backwards for Japan. Meiji Japan was more liberal sexually than Edo's, and the same thing can be said about post-WW II and pre-WW II.

jekyl_hyde · 04-09-2012, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

Soon? Centuries after the fact for you is "soon"? Sparta had its sexual peak in the IV Century BC and only fell IV century AC. That's 700~800 between the events. It also took centuries for Rome and Ancient Egypt.

Also, you got it backwards for Japan. Meiji Japan was more liberal sexually than Edo's, and the same thing can be said about post-WW II and pre-WW II.

I find it funny, because Sparta was Roman (monarchy during the time of Amino Domino). Really funny seeing how many historians have the fall of Greece (as a nation) circa 500-400 B.C., depending on which you choose to believe. Then you have the Persians having a small rule until the monarchy in Rome took over. (Not getting into the whole Roman monarchy and democracy thing, but they are two different entities on how the empire was ruled and governed.)

And then Japan, really.... kinda funny how in ancient Japan, pre-Edo (sorry, because this is the era that I meant for Japan), polygamy was the norm. Prostitution, homosexuality among men, and bestiality were common forms of sexual activity for that era.

Numinous · 04-09-2012, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

what do you define as the fall of rome? because hell, what do you define as the birth of rome? because if you're talking about democratic rome (which is a laughable statement, but that's what several historians call it) only lasted circa 200 years. rome was the first true democracy to the known world. that is what i'm referring to. at its sexual peak, you have orgies, homosexuality, beastiality, some weird shit going on. you had celebritism going on. you also had political corruption, and what was once the greatest army on the face of the earth, becoming stretched too thin to patrol it's borders. enter the germanic tribes, mongols, and muslims. boom, fall of rome.

when a lot of people refer to rome in the past, they're talking about democratic rome, when it was ran by its senate, and caesar was a figurehead. not the other way around, when rome was a monarchy. which this in and of itself opens a whole new can of worms, which can get really difficult.

back to the point, do i think the peak of sexuality played some role in each demise no matter how small, yes. Do i think it was the source, no.

Oh for fuck's sake, what twisted timeline are you referring to? Did you suddenly forgot there was a Roman EMPIRE after the Roman Republic that everybody and their mothers refer to when the Roman Empire pops up? This isn't rocket science. Although if you're talking about the Roman Civilization, started with the Roman Kingdom at 753 BC and ended with the Roman Empire at 476 AC.

Yes, when the Roman Republic ended, orgies and homosexuality and whatnot were the rage, but the Roman Civilization did not decline at that point. On the other hand, it gained more than half of both territory and population at the peak of the Empire. Due to the expansion and later conversion to Christianity, such levels of debauchery preceded the fall of the Empire by centuries. CENTURIES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

I find it funny, because Sparta was Roman (monarchy during the time of Amino Domino). Really funny seeing how many historians have the fall of Greece (as a nation) circa 500-400 B.C., depending on which you choose to believe.

That'd be Classical Greece. Now you're forgetting Hellenistic Greece that lasted as a whole until 146 B.C, funny how you forget stuff. Also, Sparta had a special status in the Roman Republic/Empire, due to laconophilia.

Quote:

Then you have the Persians having a small rule until the monarchy in Rome took over.

Persians having a small rule? Talk about a vestigial rule: 10 years in the first invasion (without Athens and Sparta) and roughly 2 years in the second invasion. And what was from 492-481 BC and 480-478 BC, the romans only got Greece in, as I said, 146 BC.

If that's enough to consider the decline of a nation, then many European countries are fucked, considering Napoleon and Hitler.

Quote:

And then Japan, really.... kinda funny how in ancient Japan, pre-Edo (sorry, because this is the era that I meant for Japan), polygamy was the norm. Prostitution, homosexuality among men, and bestiality were common forms of sexual activity for that era.

Now I'm worried about what exactly you think "declining nation" means. Although Japan never reached the well's bottom, it had 2 major events that placed Japan on hot water: the Edo Period, due to various restrictions and seclusion from foreign influences and WW II because of nuclear mushrooms and other shenanigans.

So... how did you miss that, between the Momoyama Period and the Meiji Restoration that pulled Japan out of the crapper, 265 years passed? Seriously, the more I talk about this, the more I think it's sexual restrictions that might doom nations, not the other way around.

jekyl_hyde · 04-09-2012, 06:22 PM

if you want to get technical, the roman empire rose and fell numerous times. why do you think you different greece eras as you've mentioned? it's because of the many times that rome rose and fell.

rome reached its pinnacle when it was labeled as the great democracy, no one refutes this information and history. it held the most land, and as a single civilization, had the highest population.

when i say demise, or fall i'm talking about that era no longer reaching its prominence and being in a serious decline.

if you seriously want to go tit for tat, this could go on forever, considering how much history you are looking at. especially considering the roman empire, you're looking at numerous conspiracy theories. the point is, at the fall of the egyptian empire, the fall of japan (end of the warrior so to speak ie. shogun era), and the fall of rome; people were getting freaky with any and everyone and thing.

Numinous · 04-09-2012, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

if you want to get technical, the roman empire rose and fell numerous times. why do you think you different greece eras as you've mentioned? it's because of the many times that rome rose and fell.

rome reached its pinnacle when it was labeled as the great democracy, no one refutes this information and history. it held the most land, and as a single civilization, had the highest population.

when i say demise, or fall i'm talking about that era no longer reaching its prominence and being in a serious decline.

Yeah, that's a problem, since when people normally talk about demise, it's pretty much the end of said civilization/nation. If passing by eras can be summarized as "rise and fall" then France, for example, rose and fell quite a few times: Absolute Kingdom of France, Constitutional Kingdom of France, First French Republic, First French Empire, Bourbon's France, July Kingdom of the French, Second French Republic, Second French Empire, Third French Republic, Vichy and Nazi Frances, Fourth French Republic and now the Fifth French Republic. Funny thing is that, even with the Nazi occupation, France never lost its sovereignty.

Jesus, the French must have been humping madly!

Quote:

if you seriously want to go tit for tat, this could go on forever, considering how much history you are looking at. especially considering the roman empire, you're looking at numerous conspiracy theories. the point is, at the fall of the egyptian empire, the fall of japan (end of the warrior so to speak ie. shogun era), and the fall of rome; people were getting freaky with any and everyone and thing.

I might as well ask for some evidence to back your claims that doesn't come from a right-wing nutjob, because this is getting ridiculous.

jekyl_hyde · 04-09-2012, 09:51 PM

Quick jab about France in WWII... without getting into conspiracy theories, you can thank Great Britain for that little fact that they never lost their sovereignty.

And as far as being radical, I could say that you sound like a left-wing nut job. Radical is radical.

And for the evidence you're asking for, it's supported by left-leaning historians. And oh yeah, they're the ones with a lot of the conspiracy theories as well. Not that the right-leaning ones don't have theirs.

Human Rasengan · 04-10-2012, 12:30 AM

I would like to thank the input recievedon the topic. well everyone but that assholekael..since he didn't add any info..

I knew placing the topic on here would start a discussion on the matter and bring me a little insight.... one of my homebois just came out to our group and a few of the guys want nothign to do with him and I'm trying to get them to understand that dude is the same motherfucker that had your back last week as he is today.. all you know is some about him.. i just hate intollerance and the fact that this has cause a split in our group kinda hurts..

I knew if I laced it here i would get ammunition to tell them how our homie is just a part of nature

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-10-2012, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

Actually, you are. Especially when you point out the sexual activities and then say that the fall of those civilizations fell soon after.

Except the data doesn't even support a correlative conclusion. Rome fell 300 years after it reached its sexual peak. The sexual peak =/= the fall of the civilization.

@Bolded: then why the hell did you make a post specifically citing sexual "deviance" and try to make the conclusion that said deviance was intertwined with the civilizations' downfalls? When Num clearly pointed out that they weren't and a little bit of research would've led you to the same conclusion as him.

Did you know that the number of drownings increase as ice cream sales increase? :P

Numinous · 04-10-2012, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

Quick jab about France in WWII... without getting into conspiracy theories, you can thank Great Britain for that little fact that they never lost their sovereignty.

And? You can thank many countries in terms of sovereignty of others, it doesn't disprove my claim and it's still pertinent to show how your claim is fickle at best, since you're cherry-picking events to prove it while disregarding others of equal or bigger importance.

Quote:

And as far as being radical, I could say that you sound like a left-wing nut job. Radical is radical.

Wut? I'm not talking about you when I say right-win nutjob, I mean the source of the claim Rome fell due to sexual depravity normally comes from them to justify anti-gay and anti-abortion positions, as if their country will fall into shambles if they aren't chaste.

Quote:

And for the evidence you're asking for, it's supported by left-leaning historians.

Okay, show them to me then.

ACt · 04-10-2012, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human Rasengan

I knew placing the topic on here would start a discussion on the matter and bring me a little insight.... one of my homebois just came out to our group and a few of the guys want nothign to do with him and I'm trying to get them to understand that dude is the same motherfucker that had your back last week as he is today..

Except, he really isn't the same motherfucker. He's more of a uncle fucker now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubborn_d0nkey

Did you know that the number of drownings increase as ice cream sales increase? :P

I like using that one too.

-SassyLady- · 04-10-2012, 05:40 PM

Personally I don't care.
If your a guy and like guys hey by all means who am I to judge you? It's your life not mine. If your a girl and love girls again by all means kudos to ya. It's nothing to trip about, they have rights just as much as everyone else. It's not a serious issue.

Human Rasengan · 04-10-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -SassyLady-

Personally I don't care.
If your a guy and like guys hey by all means who am I to judge you? It's your life not mine. If your a girl and love girls again by all means kudos to ya. It's nothing to trip about, they have rights just as much as everyone else. It's not a serious issue.

Yea and it's not an issue for me either but the old addage people fear what they dont understand... I think that if there is a scientific explaination of how homosexuality isn't a choice but something thats ingrained in a person .like a peanut or shellfish allergy then people could stop faulting people for "choosing" to be different and see that they are doing nothign more than being who God/Nature designed them to be.

TokenSmoke · 04-10-2012, 10:54 PM

I was reading some neat research about homosexuality. My thought was:

Behavioral traits, unlike eye color or hair color, are very complex as they have genetic, structural/developmental (physical structure), dietary and socio-cultural causes. Something like depression can have as small of a root cause as a point mutation which codes for a now deficient enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase which plays a role in transforming tryptophan into seratonin. The same depression could be due to environmental conditions like a lack of sunlight, social exposure or... the list goes on. My point is that teasing out genetic vs. experiental/ developmental causes is really difficult to do outside of a very cruel laboratory.

I was thinking that so many things could be the cause of the brain conditions that lead to homosexuality, but if there indeed is a genetic component that plays an important role, how would it get passed on to future generations? Gays aren't motivated to procreate with a member of the opposite sex that is capable of passing the genes on. A few things could explain why, although gays ostensibly shouldn't reproduce thereby thinning their genes from the gene pool, we still see gays today.

(this is of course assuming that in most cases genetics play an important role, without which homosexuality would be highly unlikely)

1) gay people get pressured to reproduce anyways, in undesirable pairings, thereby passing the genes on.

2) Homosexuality is ultimately dependent on a variety of factors, and many gays don't even know that they are homosexual.

I found this option to be intriguing

3) much like sickle cell anemia, the genes controlling sexuality and reproductive desires somehow benefit or are just as effective when a heterogeneous mixture is expressed - that is to say, a male expressing some female traits or vica-versa may be beneficial to sexual fitness.

4) Some other more complex analysis of hormonal development, enzymes, diets etc...

Anyways, I am no authority on the subject, but I wanted to put my two cents in. What do you think?

04-09-2012, 02:47 PM	#17
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 625 Thanked 1,054 Times in 404 Posts	Re: homosexuality is it just...... ever heard the saying, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. what do you define as the fall of rome? because hell, what do you define as the birth of rome? because if you're talking about democratic rome (which is a laughable statement, but that's what several historians call it) only lasted circa 200 years. rome was the first true democracy to the known world. that is what i'm referring to. at its sexual peak, you have orgies, homosexuality, beastiality, some weird shit going on. you had celebritism going on. you also had political corruption, and what was once the greatest army on the face of the earth, becoming stretched too thin to patrol it's borders. enter the germanic tribes, mongols, and muslims. boom, fall of rome. when a lot of people refer to rome in the past, they're talking about democratic rome, when it was ran by its senate, and caesar was a figurehead. not the other way around, when rome was a monarchy. which this in and of itself opens a whole new can of worms, which can get really difficult. back to the point, do i think the peak of sexuality played some role in each demise no matter how small, yes. Do i think it was the source, no.

04-09-2012, 06:22 PM	#21
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 625 Thanked 1,054 Times in 404 Posts	Re: homosexuality is it just...... if you want to get technical, the roman empire rose and fell numerous times. why do you think you different greece eras as you've mentioned? it's because of the many times that rome rose and fell. rome reached its pinnacle when it was labeled as the great democracy, no one refutes this information and history. it held the most land, and as a single civilization, had the highest population. when i say demise, or fall i'm talking about that era no longer reaching its prominence and being in a serious decline. if you seriously want to go tit for tat, this could go on forever, considering how much history you are looking at. especially considering the roman empire, you're looking at numerous conspiracy theories. the point is, at the fall of the egyptian empire, the fall of japan (end of the warrior so to speak ie. shogun era), and the fall of rome; people were getting freaky with any and everyone and thing.

04-09-2012, 09:51 PM	#23
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 625 Thanked 1,054 Times in 404 Posts	Re: homosexuality is it just...... Quick jab about France in WWII... without getting into conspiracy theories, you can thank Great Britain for that little fact that they never lost their sovereignty. And as far as being radical, I could say that you sound like a left-wing nut job. Radical is radical. And for the evidence you're asking for, it's supported by left-leaning historians. And oh yeah, they're the ones with a lot of the conspiracy theories as well. Not that the right-leaning ones don't have theirs.

04-10-2012, 12:30 AM	#24
Human Rasengan S-Ranked Shinobi Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: inside your mom Posts: 3,241 Thanks: 2,791 Thanked 1,126 Times in 772 Posts	Re: homosexuality is it just...... I would like to thank the input recievedon the topic. well everyone but that assholekael..since he didn't add any info.. I knew placing the topic on here would start a discussion on the matter and bring me a little insight.... one of my homebois just came out to our group and a few of the guys want nothign to do with him and I'm trying to get them to understand that dude is the same motherfucker that had your back last week as he is today.. all you know is some about him.. i just hate intollerance and the fact that this has cause a split in our group kinda hurts.. I knew if I laced it here i would get ammunition to tell them how our homie is just a part of nature __________________ for those of you who don't understand.. I'm coming from an illogical perspective so your logic won't fit my argument .. it'll only give you a headache.. remember ..belief doesn't require a co-signer There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity , I Have Erased This Line ! If I were you I'd hate me too.. I am the HUMAN RASENGAN!!! The power of despair is great in you. [CENTER] http://www.citymanga.com/naruto/chapter-462/14/ http://www.fandom.com/forums/showpos...54&postcount=5 http://www.fandom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53431 http://www.fandom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55960 Madara's mask theme song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3882sGkrNA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlzx4...&feature=share http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qkz4WfOto LOL I'M DYING BACK HERE

04-10-2012, 05:40 PM	#28
-SassyLady- A little Dysfunctional >3 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: -Nebraska- Age: 19 Posts: 2,051 Thanks: 1,235 Thanked 1,375 Times in 875 Posts	Re: homosexuality is it just...... Personally I don't care. If your a guy and like guys hey by all means who am I to judge you? It's your life not mine. If your a girl and love girls again by all means kudos to ya. It's nothing to trip about, they have rights just as much as everyone else. It's not a serious issue. __________________ "Peace is nothing but the result of war."

04-10-2012, 10:54 PM	#30
TokenSmoke Genin Join Date: Jun 2009 Age: 24 Posts: 71 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 22 Posts	Re: homosexuality is it just...... I was reading some neat research about homosexuality. My thought was: Behavioral traits, unlike eye color or hair color, are very complex as they have genetic, structural/developmental (physical structure), dietary and socio-cultural causes. Something like depression can have as small of a root cause as a point mutation which codes for a now deficient enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase which plays a role in transforming tryptophan into seratonin. The same depression could be due to environmental conditions like a lack of sunlight, social exposure or... the list goes on. My point is that teasing out genetic vs. experiental/ developmental causes is really difficult to do outside of a very cruel laboratory. I was thinking that so many things could be the cause of the brain conditions that lead to homosexuality, but if there indeed is a genetic component that plays an important role, how would it get passed on to future generations? Gays aren't motivated to procreate with a member of the opposite sex that is capable of passing the genes on. A few things could explain why, although gays ostensibly shouldn't reproduce thereby thinning their genes from the gene pool, we still see gays today. (this is of course assuming that in most cases genetics play an important role, without which homosexuality would be highly unlikely) 1) gay people get pressured to reproduce anyways, in undesirable pairings, thereby passing the genes on. 2) Homosexuality is ultimately dependent on a variety of factors, and many gays don't even know that they are homosexual. I found this option to be intriguing 3) much like sickle cell anemia, the genes controlling sexuality and reproductive desires somehow benefit or are just as effective when a heterogeneous mixture is expressed - that is to say, a male expressing some female traits or vica-versa may be beneficial to sexual fitness. 4) Some other more complex analysis of hormonal development, enzymes, diets etc... Anyways, I am no authority on the subject, but I wanted to put my two cents in. What do you think? __________________ engage

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