kael03

Um...he did get the chakra cloak. He could create a full manifestation of Shukaku, just with sand. Yugito did the same thing for her 2 tailed transformation, only her transformation used fire.

UzumakiUchiha

Never thought sand was considered as chakra cloak. Naruto's and Bee's seemed more like pure chakra (and the other tailed beasts i think except ichibi). Ichibi's one was more like physical manifestation no chakra.

apacolypz

That's the case, all jinks carry different traits and abilities that off their Bijuu. Though it all looks the same they are not.

jeanericuser

I hate to say it but some of you have been drinking a little too much of the kyf fruit punch. If I have to do some serious debunking than so be it. First of all, I will state for the record that this is bordering on theory more than physical proof but at least this is more likely.

First of all, we can all say for certain that the rinnegan was an ability the first sage had before he became the jinchuriki of the juubi. As for how the juubi has the rinnegan lets be honest here. How do you control a powerful beast and keep it distracted long enough that you can seal it? You find a way to disrupt it both physically and mentally enough that you can take control of it. As nagato demonstrated, its possible to take control of someone and remote control them as long as you imbed a suitable amount of chakra rods in order to take control of that person. The side effect of full control of a target is you give that person rinnegan eyes. That is why the paths of pain have rinnegan eyes but on closer inspection you discover they do not have a true rinnegan. That is why the juubi as we see him fighting the first sage has rinnegan eyes. The image we see most often is the image of the sage of the six paths fighting the mind of the juubi for control of its body. That is why the juubi has the rinnegan. Take that away and what do you have left? Just the tomoes which brings me to the next part of this debunk.

Now here is something to consider. Ever wonder why the sharingan has more in common with the juubi than the rinnegan? Well if the rinnegan was with the sage of the six paths before than its safe to assume he didn't acquire the sharingan until after he became the juubi jinchuriki. This explains why by nature the sharingan seems more in common with the darkness of the juubi unlike the rinnegan which is not.

That brings us to the main crux of this situation. Why can't the sharingan and the rinnegan merge to become one eye type? The answer is the same as why the byakugan and the sharingan can not become one eye type. They both have distinctly different chakra signatures that make them different from one another. This is why a merger of them is not possible and anyone who does possess one of each type must use the other ability seperately. This is the reason why tobi had to have an ems eye and a rinnegan eye implanted. This is why madara had to switch back and forth between ems and rinnegan abilities instead of combine them together. He couldn't use both at the same time so he had to shut off one eye type ability in order to access the other. Both of these cases prove that combining the two together is nearly impossible much like the dust element jutsu. The ability in itself is almost impossible and thus even being as powerful as madara are forced to follow this rule despite how awesome it would be to combine the two together. This also explains why tsukyama and amaterasu can not be cast at the same time. Even those two carry entirely different chakra signatures thus why sasuke has always had to use one jutsu while keeping the other eye closed since it requires a fair amount of concentration on one eye just to use that ability.

Now that ladies and gents concludes my opinion on why the sharinnegan can not exist. Kyf's upgrade idea seems nice in theory but if its rules are the same as what my chakra signature theory suggests than its theoretically impossible for it to ever happen. Hope you enjoy the read.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

[QUOTE=jeanericuser;2113243]U are speaking of debunking... u do not even know the difference between opinion and fact...

There is no evidence to support the idea that he had the RG before he became the juubi's jink... NONE!!! Maybe he was a dragon sage or some other senjutsu master, but not a sage of six paths...
The juubi is shown with a sharinnegan... a doujutsu of both the sharingan and rinnegan... RS was most likely just an uzumaki with powerful sealing abilities which is how he was able to seal the juubi....

Uuum, the paths of nagato and tobi both had RG eyes and even SG as well...

However, a jink, when using the power of the bijuu has the same eyes as well... so this is the same with RS... once he became the juubi's jink and used its power, he gained the same eyes as well... there is your debunk lol...

The paths of RG users having RG eyes is probably due to the power being connected to the bijuu, thus the juubi itself... there is no explanation where such a power came from before the juubi came along... not one!

No, the SG has more in common with the kyuubi... it has the power to control and summon the kyuubi... while the RG has the power to summon the juubi and control it (gedo mazo is the juubi)... So that shits on your theory...

It turns out that the SG is a lower power version of the RG, not the other way around... The manga suggest that as the SG can control/summon the kyuubi (likely half the juubi's power)... the SG is more connected to the kyuubi... Karin even confirmed that sasukes MS'spower feel just like the kyuubi's within naruto...

So, if the SG is connected to the kyuubi (powered down version of the juubi), likely chakra more Yin in nature like the SG... then the juubi with the other 8 bijuu being more Yang in nature of chakra, of the juubi... kyuubi/yin and other 8 bijuu/Yang creates the RG... just as a regular uchiha/kyuubi power can only awaken the EMS.... but once hashirama senju's power is added (like the yang of the other eight bijuu) the RG is born...

SO if you still cannot follow...

The full power of the kyuubi offers the power of the SG... which the uchiha inherited from the elder son of RS, which was the YIN half of RS/juubi's power... While Hashirama senju inherited power Yang nature chakra, which he inherited from the younger son, who was given the yang half of RS's/jubi's power...

How do I know this??? Because the juubi is confirmed as having Yin/yang nature chakra... Yin is the power of imagination and spiritual energy that when applied can create shape and form from nothingness (aka genjutsu!)
while Yang is the power of vitality and physical energy that when applied gives life...
and guess what the elder son inherited from RS/juubi?? His eyes, powerful spiritual energy and chakras while the younger son inherited RS's powerful body with vitality and physical energy...
Both perfectly inherited the Yin/Yang of RS/juubi... (which is why I believe RS used the same izanagi he used to create the bijuu to give his sons the Yin/yang power of the juubi)...



You just do not get it do you... the SG came from the RG... its just a lower power version of the RG...
It goes SG-MS-EMS-RG... thats how it goes and was proven by edo madara with kabuto's help...

Do you want to know how the SG becomes the RG....?

as the spiritual energy/Yin nature chakra of the SG builds from tomoe to tomoe... then to the MS, then to the EMS... and the power of the SG goes from completely being genjutsu with a basic SG... to being two ninjutsu and only one genjutsu with the MS... (MS+ Such as shisui's Kotoamatsukami is the final genjutsu, while tobi and kakashi have a powerful T/S ninjutsu... due to them having other bloodline traits of either senju or uzumaki I assume) then the EMS being two ninjutsu and one genjutsu along with an unknown doujutsu... then once the EMS becomes the RG... only ninjutsu abilities are offered by it....

Note: Notice that the juubi had nine tomoe... a row of tomoe for each level of the SG... the basic SG is three tomoe... the MS is three more tomoe (and jutsu) making a six tomoe SG... then finally the EMS is the last three tomoe as a MS+MS doujutsu which makes a nine tomoe SG... the same SG power seen in the juubi's eye...
SG=3 tomoe
MS=3 more tomoe
EMS=3more tomoe...
The "true power" of the SG as tobi and itachi call it is a 9 tomoe SG... just like what the juubi shows...

You see... as the SG evolves... it turns from being purely a genjutsu eye to purely being a ninjutsu, the RG... but madara showed he could still use his sasanoo meaning he could aslo use amaterasu and tsukuyomi because they are the requirement for using sasanoo... so you are wrong jean... the power of the SG is still usable when it evolves into the RG...

IMO, Nagato's RG was not evolved from the EMS, but a basic SG... Its because of the power of life force and physical energy nagato had... he must of transformed the SG eyes implanted by madara straight into the RG when he saw his parents die, as opposed to awakening a MS like uchiha do... that is why nagato could use no MS jutsu...

SO we got it jean... edo madara proved you can still use MS abilities after evolving the EMS into the RG by using his sasanoo... and that the SG is merely a devolved version of the RG due to the sage splitting the Yin/SG power from the Yang/life force and physical energy that created the RG...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

Konnaha_yellow_flash

lol while shitting on ur theory jean I think I finally figured out why minato split the yin fron the kyuubi leaving only the yang half for naruto to use...

Because of the nature of the kyuubi and its connection to the uchiha...

If the kyuubi is just a giant mass of Yin nature chakra... the same chakra that makes up the SG... Minato must have realized the connection between the two was Yin nature chakra... the reason why the MS could control it and the EMS could summon it... is because both consist of the exact same chakra...

So to keep the masked man from being able to take control of it again minato took out the Yin half of the kyuubi's Yin nature chakra (minato took out the spiritual energy or the mental energy... the yin half of the kyuubi's chakra... then put only the yang half of the kyuubi's chakra in naruto...

By doing this, minato made it so the very nature of the kyuubi's chakra would change... becoming Yang in nature by drawing on naruto's powerful physical energy to regenerate his lost half...... but because naruto has little spiritual energy or mental energy that makes up Yin nature chakra, but tons of physical energy and life force.... the kyuubi would no longer be a pure Yin chakra bijuu once it regenerated its lost half, but a Yang chakra nature bijuu... isince naruto is a Yang chakra element user himself (naruto has powerful physical energy and life force)... he can now control the kyuubi's power as well as the uchiha not being able to control the kyuubi or summon it anymore... since its no longer a yin nature bijuu...

This is why when naruto controls the kyuubi's power its just a huge mass of life and physical energy... but still with some form because even though its yang in nature... it still has to have some spiritual energy in it to have any kind of shape or form and to be chakra... IDK exactly how Yin/yang chakra are made, but ... it could be that Yin nature chakra is purely chakra made of spiritual and mental energy with some life energy to give the Yin chakra life as a bijuu, not just a form of energy... no physical energy... instead of the basic spiritual and physical energy which makes up basic chakra... while yang nature chakra is purely made up of life energy (vitality) and physical energy... no spiritual energy at all... but some spiritual energy would still have to be used in the creation of the other 8 bijuu to give them shape and form...

It could be... any of the four energies combine to make chakra... so mental energy+spiritual energy=Yin nature chakra... while Life energy+physical energy=Yang nature energy...
But what mental energy+life energy=??? I am guessing neutral nature chakra.... Perhaps Life energy+mental energy=void nature chakra... the chakra capable of controlling time and space... IDK...

Either way... its spiritual+mental energy+life energy+physical energy=chakra that creates the RG...

IMO, the power naruto was drawing on before was purely the Yin nature chakra of the kyuubi... which is why it was red like the SG, but still had the ability to regenerate naruto's injuries... all because his negative emotions feed the kyuubi's power turning it dark... which the kyuubi took over naruto with.... buring the skin off, forming bones and other shapes of the kyuubi as more and more tails grew....

IDK, there are so hole in this theory, but I will work on it...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

kael03

You seem to erase that line with every one of your theories. Every time you post something you start with the claim "IMO". Yet, when someone debunks it, you claim that the manga fully supports it to the point that it is fact, not theory, even when the manga completely contradicts it.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

Oh please... you are so delusional and bias that u made up danzou having shisui's arm when the manga showed he did not have it, it was hashirama's cells implanted... then kabuto, Oro's right hand man who did all the experiment's to danzou, only said shisui's only DNA lies with danzou's right eye... not arm too... However, you continue to delude yourself that danzou still had shisui's arm when danzou is dead... everything he had and was using has been revealed already... end of story, no shisui's arm on danzou... it serves no purpose anyways with danzou having hashirama chakra from implanting his cells which can power the SG/MS/EMS/RG better then any uchiha...

Tell me about erasing lines when I state my theories as an observation of the manga that has brought me to a conclusion or many... but all is my opinion though... Its the manga panels that you guys insist imply nothing when they do... those are factual.. its the manga...

Believe w/e you want kal... you have nothing to debunk the tobi=shisui without a confirmation of age, where his body is and what shisui was doing in the mist... only when one or two of those are revealed can shisui be debunked as tobi... because of right now... the manga suggests he is the guy behind the mask...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

jeanericuser

I didn't say it was all fact but if we gotta debate this than why not my weekend is free. First of all, here is a question for ya. Have we ever EVER seen a pic of rikuoudo senin with any form of sharingan? I have read this manga over countless times and I can't say as if I have ever seen rikuoudo senin with a sharingan of any form. Yet when we look at the juubi what is the first thing we see immediately, the tomoes of a sharingan. Maybe the sharingan was mutated as a result of exposure to the rinnegan but again its still doubtful that rikoudo senin had it before hand. Even after the sage was no longer the juubi jinchuriki its still his primary trademark ability that makes sage of the six paths recognizeable instantly. He has the pure rinnegan.

Nagato didn't have a sharingan. I hope to god this is a misunderstanding kyf cause nagato having a sharingan is like seeing guy with a sexy jutsu. Second of all, the jinks that tobi used got the rinnegan because they were made paths. When you make something into a path it gains the rinnegan as a sign of being controlled. The sharingan was implanted in the other eye to give them that ability but the problem was that tobi couldn't use both the abilities of the paths, the bijuu, and the sharingan at the same time. As a result it was like a noob running into a multiplayer game full of weapons but all it takes is a little concentrated effort from a pro and the noob can be easily one shotted. NEXT! As for why the sage of the six paths had the rinnegan its obvious it came about as a result of a genetic fluke. They are very common in the narutoverse. Take for example the clans that have the special kekai genkai or the rare genetic abnormalities. Even the byakugan appears to be like that as it started with probably just some basic hyper senses and evolved to a power style of incredible complexity. That seems likely how the rinnegan started. The first one to have it though was smart enough to hone that ability to its full potential though unlike many others that often never do. Im gonna skip the next paragraph you did since that seems unnecessary. I made my point but the next one will work better.

Uh dude. The sharingan can only become the rinnegan by one way and one way only. You need to be an uchiha with a sharingan that combines your dna with senju dna. That is how madara got the rinnegan in the first place. As 561 makes it clear after madara lost to hashirama he had part of hashirama's cells added to his body. That is how he gained the rinnegan. Its not natural evolution. Its litterally by taking the cell structure of both brothers and combining them together properly. The reason others can not do it is often because their bloodline was not pure enough to be able to do it. That is why danzo didn't gain the rinnegan despite having both uchiha eyes and hashirama dna in his body. Alright now lets focus on madara's jutsu cause I guess that is where the crux of this situation is. Madara thus far has proved that with each upgrade comes a new limit. As Madara uses the rinnegan now he has only used 1 ability as far as I have seen which was the repel. Everything else has been ms abilities. We have yet to see him even once use anything more than that repel. In fact Im starting to wonder if kishi has forgotton the difference between ems and rinnegan since 90% of the time madara has used nothing but ms abilties. There has been little to no useage of rinnegan abilities. This suggests either madara doesn't want to use those abilities or possibly he can't. This part I will admit it a little ambigious but so far it since kishi seems to be making this up as he goes along but I still believe that rinnegan and ms are two very different techniques with different rules and abilities.

I gotta admit writing this is taking longer than expected and I could use some breakfast so I will end this post for now since I could really use some chow and I don't want this too time out resulting in an erased post as it does to me on some occasions.

kael03

Then tell me something:

Why is it that Itachi burned the eye Shisui gave him after it was used on the former if it couldn't be used more than once a decade (making it useless to the current plot/keeping it away from Kabuto), while Danzou, who we all agree had Hashirama's cells implanted into his arm, could use the eye about once a day?

Why did Shisui give up his remaining eye after using Kotoamatsukami ONCE to try to stop the coup, if he had Hashirama's chakra and was capable of using it repeatedly? We all know that it affects people without them realizing they are being controlled, so secrecy of it is not an issue for repeated attempts.

Why did Ao, who said he fought Shisui before and recognized the color of his chakra (colors of chakra being unique to each individual, by the way) claim that the chakra coming from Danzou's arm was Shisui's?

You're absolutely right, Danzou's corpse didn't have Shisui's arm. I never said that it did. I've already brought that up before when you brought up why Kabuto didn't mention the arm in another thread. The reason is Danzou lost the arm when Hashirama's cells went berserk and tried to engulf him in a wild mokuton. He forcefully ripped the arm off once it started turning into a tree.

Actually, it serves the purpose of giving Danzou Uchiha dna to efficiently power 11 sharingan without a severe drain on himself (Kakashi, using 1 sharingan for extended periods of time, is left almost comatose).

He was contemporary of Itachi, meaning he was in his early-mid teens when he died (Itachi was 13).

What part of "he arranged for his existence to be erased" doesn't clue you in that he set up his body being destroyed after his death to keep people from trying to covet his powers.

Gee, I don't know. The Leaf and Mist were never really on good terms. The only reasons they are working together right now are: new Mizukage = new foreign policies, maniacal wannabe dictator trying to take over the world prompting them to align themselves with others against a common foe (enemy of my enemy)

Ao's watching the battlefield, he knows Shisui's chakra signature, Tobi's fighting on the battlefield, which means he's using chakra, Ao has yet to say "WTF?? Shisui is on the battlefield with Naruto and Bee!".

Also, manga says the exact opposite. Height differences, major differences in techniques, age differences, personality differences, etc., all point away from Tobi = Shisui.

jericho Uzimaki

Hey have a question. It just hit me. Sasuke knows that the order to kill the clan was DANZOU no oneelse! So why hate Konoha?! Danzou is dead he should be finished with vengeance.

Brings it back to Kakashi warning him about the path of Vengeance. So far 3 characters went down thaf path and teo came back.

Shikamaru for Asuma and Naruto for J-Man.

__________________




Gamble

Joshua the Rogue

Transformers:Generations
For NaruHina fans

First Orange knuckle head ninja

The Question

Dagoro

That would require this thing called "coherent writing" on Kishi's part. Sasuke is nothing but a joke villain at this point, and amusingly enough is being taken down one of the most pathetic roads to redemption I have ever seen.

I baffles me how his meeting with Itachi went down. It was the perfect opportunity to slap some sense into Sasuke which would in turn make his eventual coat turning a tad more realistic. Itachi, his brother, the person that mindfucked Sasuke and gave him purpose leaves with nothing but a freaking flashback further painting the Uchiha as the victims and Konoha's leadership to be tyrants.

Yet we are expected to swallow Nardo changing him with some rainbow shit, probably rehashing the same sob story we have heard a zillion times instead of the person Sasuke values the most.

Seriously. Another thing is that more and more Kishi lightens Naruto's responsibility in these matters. Sasuke will be preheated in a sense when he and Naruto have their gay megazord fight making Ninjesus and his message easier to sink in.

__________________

Human Rasengan

With the relationship between Tobi and Kakashi's jutsu I wonder if Tobi notices when Kakashi uses kamui and if pain's nail and Deidara's arm are in Tobi's box zone.

__________________
for those of you who don't understand.. I'm coming from an illogical perspective so your logic won't fit my argument .. it'll only give you a headache.. remember ..belief doesn't require a co-signer There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity , I Have Erased This Line ! If I were you I'd hate me too.. I am the HUMAN RASENGAN!!!

The power of despair is great in you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlzx4...&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qkz4WfOto

LOL I'M DYING BACK HERE

UzumakiUchiha

From what I remember, kakashi transported diedara and his arm in to another location where diedara already retrieved it. From the new chapter, I think kakashi understands his kamui technique a bit more and how it works. Probably, when he uses his kamui, he transports the object through a dimension with no time/space like a void, then the object instantly reappears in another location from that void as the void has no time flow.

So I would say kakashi transported the rasengan to the void dimension and back to the same space as it seems like he has more control of it.

Human Rasengan

no the only thing that happened was that Deidara lost his arm he was never transported to the dimension. Plus Kakashi isn't retrieving the rasengan . Tobi just warped to the other sidwe where it was and got hit.

__________________
for those of you who don't understand.. I'm coming from an illogical perspective so your logic won't fit my argument .. it'll only give you a headache.. remember ..belief doesn't require a co-signer There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity , I Have Erased This Line ! If I were you I'd hate me too.. I am the HUMAN RASENGAN!!!

The power of despair is great in you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlzx4...&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qkz4WfOto

LOL I'M DYING BACK HERE