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Old 08-30-2012, 08:27 AM   #241
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Re: Naruto_599

Damn, you guys talk a LOT when Europe is asleep. Goddamn time zones!

But let's start the Plot Hole Flying Cirrrrrrrcussss!!!
  • Plot Holes vs Retcons
EoJ is crying his little heart out about how Minato's face in the monument and Kakashi being in the same Chuunin Exams as Obito are somehow retcons and not plot holes. While technically retcons aren't plot holes per se, they're the weakest kind of plot patching there is that still include some kind of plot hole. It's like covering a pit with a net and a bunch of leaves, you no longer see the pit but it's still there.

Also, what is the guarantee they're indeed retcons and not your standard plot hole? Normally, retcons are when the new continuity is expanded upon while the previous continuity is disregarded. But there's still no expansion upon the newest continuity so, until there's such a thing, they're plot holes.

Finally, on this point, why these plot holes? The Hokage Monument would have the same effect without Minato's face on it and Kakashi could still be part of the flashback as a good friend or something in those lines. EoJ complains that Kakashi being Chuunin at the age 6 was stupid, but I object. Kishi had all the time he wanted to produce the Databooks, so I assume he thought them through. He wrote Obito's entrance years after Kakashi's entrance and, if he didn't want the Chuunin Promotion ages to coincide back then when the material was fresh, why now? Because he fucked up, simple as that. Speaking of fuck ups.
  • Art fuck ups vs Plot Holes
EoJ again wanted to use Kishi making an art mistake to cover up the plot hole... by using a cameo from the anime. It's baffling how that even makes sense as an example, but I understand what he meant. Kishi drew A with both hands recently, Pain had once a Konoha headband and Kakashi's eye scar went missing for a famous panel.

The thing is, they're minor details that aren't the focus of the panel, unlike the Hokage Monument, which the faces were the damn focus of the panel representing Obito's desire to emulate the Hokage ideal. So no, it wasn't a fuck up due to distraction, it was deliberate. And Kishi deliberately put Minato's face in the Monument 2 whole years before his official entitlement to the position of Hokage.

But now for Tobi=Obito specific plot holes:
  • Growth inconsistency vs Growth spurt.
Yet again, EoJ brushed off the 21 cm height difference between Obito's "death" and Tobi's invasion of Konoha. And he probably never seen people grow. The average growth between the ages of 13 and 14 is 8 cm, but of course not everyone grows those 8 cm. Some grow just 5 cm, others 12 cm. But no way in hell they grow 21 cm unless they have hormonal problems (which Obito demonstrably hasn't, since male growth spurts normally start at the age of 10 or close to it and Obito doesn't seem to grow that much between his Chuunin Promotion and his "death").

Oh and I looked up Dennis Roddman. He was 5'9'' at the age of 17 (at the end of his 11th grade) and 6'5'' at the age of 20. Nice try bullshitting your way, but it's a noticeable growth spurt because it happened in less than 3 years instead of the normal 4 it'd take.

People are trying to find some hyperbolic time chamber within Kamui, which isn't consistent with how Kamui works. For it to work, Kamui's time progression would have to be at least 4 times slower than the normal one, which raises the problem of Torune and Fuu being many days within Kamui's dimension and not starving to death. It was already a stretch within the manga with a normal time progression, and you want time to be stretched 4 times without at least one of them either dead or cannibalized? I won't even touch the suggestion of using Tsukuyomi as said time chamber, because that's not even how that jutsu works.
  • Kisame's face recognition vs Henge no Jutsu.
Oh EoJ, stop embarrassing yourself. Henge no Jutsu ALWAYS leaves a trail of smoke when used, so if Obito used it to fool Kisame, he must be a goddamn psychic to put himself in henge just in case Kisame would want to see his face. Or maybe, as in the most logical stance, the faces were the same (and yes, he saw the long-haired Tobi's face, or else that plot thread is a complete non-sequitur).

It could be because Obito was also the long-haired Tobi, but the thing is the manga implies the Bloody Mist era ended approximately when the Uchiha Massacre happened. It'd be consistent for Kisame, who would be 24 by then and shows the age in the flashback he had... but not so much for Obito. Obito is actually younger than Kisame by 2 years, and Kisame wouldn't go "the fuck?" when seeing that Madara looks an hell younger than he's supposed to?

Madara should (and I mean should, I'm not certain he is) be the one behind Yagura to validate Kisame's flashback, but the thing is either Kisame shares ACt's racial myopia or Kishi fucked up yet another plotline just to detour the fans, which would be yet another sign of his shitty writing. No good writer needs to conjure up lies about his plot to aid a mystery, it all should fit neatly like a puzzle with no spare parts.

Well, now that's out of the way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AniMeFaN View Post
Im not nitpicking. Just think the real fag here would be someone who pretends they dont know whether something was mentioned before in this thread when they got those exact ideas from a post they thanked in the thread.
WHO. FUCKING. CARES?!! It was me who pointed out the plot holes (based on j_H's post) and I don't even care, why should you? What, people can't say their piece even if it's based on someone else's post?


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Old 08-30-2012, 08:54 AM   #242
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Re: Naruto_599

I can't wait to see how all the issues are hamfistedly resolved.

Aside from all the time discrepancies and characters seemingly seeing him as Madara, I'm more interested in getting a proper explanation for why Obito decided to act like a complete tool as Tobi.

This manga doesn't need to make sense any more, it just needs to shovel out more confused entertainment like this.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:56 AM   #243
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Re: Naruto_599

Nice post num...

I rather obito br controlled are fused with a peice of madra i dnt think he lost his memories cause he was talking pretty personal to kakashi and gai.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:11 AM   #244
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Re: Naruto_599

I still think there are two Tobi's. I honestly would not be surprised if while Obito was healing, he allowed another Tobi to borrow his Sharingan to fight Minato.
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3. Pain Arc occurs and all Leaf ninja are revived after they were slaughtered, this started the failing of Kishi because he won't kill off main charcters.

4. Kage Summit was a tad disappointing simply because we didn't see any of the charcters that SHOULD have been introduced during the chuunin exams.

5. The War has been epicly disappointing because Kishi is killing off Edo's in a matter of one chapter when each edo (Kages, Swordsman, Nagato and Itachi) when they should get around 4 or 5 chapters of dedication.

Kishi started cutting the story shorter, his chapters have gotten shorter from 21 pages to 17 per week,

Now if you don't like this reasoning, you can simply go to another forum.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:17 AM   #245
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Re: Naruto_599

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Originally Posted by krurk View Post
I still think there are two Tobi's. I honestly would not be surprised if while Obito was healing, he allowed another Tobi to borrow his Sharingan to fight Minato.
Then who's the other Tobi? People are throwing that around without giving any decent conclusion.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:38 AM   #246
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Re: Naruto_599

Quote:
Originally Posted by AniMeFaN View Post
Im not nitpicking. Just think the real fag here would be someone who pretends they dont know whether something was mentioned before in this thread when they got those exact ideas from a post they thanked in the thread.
Hey, look, SD. He is saying I 'stole' ideas. He's an even bigger fag than we thought, haha.

I have no clue what would make you think I'm far too stupid to notice extremely blatant, minor discrepancies in this shitty mango that I would have to get them from someone else, but you're wrong. You would almost have a straw to grasp with the 'pretending to know what was mentioned' part...if I didn't already clarify my statement about only reading red posts as me meaning the only posts I read were red ones. Not that I read all the red ones, but of the ones I read they were all red. Unless you still don't understand what I'm saying, then you're nitpicking like a fag.

Well either way you're being a huge fag, so I guess it doesn't matter. Good job, retard.
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Old 08-30-2012, 09:44 AM   #247
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Re: Naruto_599

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Then who's the other Tobi? People are throwing that around without giving any decent conclusion.
I honestly have no idea man. I really can't give a decent conclusion, for me its more that I am hoping this happened for the sake of the manga.
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1. Naruto's act 1 was really good

2. Part Two started off alright, it introduced new characters and it continued to show the same potential, honestly, the story had a lot of promise up until the Pain Arc.

3. Pain Arc occurs and all Leaf ninja are revived after they were slaughtered, this started the failing of Kishi because he won't kill off main charcters.

4. Kage Summit was a tad disappointing simply because we didn't see any of the charcters that SHOULD have been introduced during the chuunin exams.

5. The War has been epicly disappointing because Kishi is killing off Edo's in a matter of one chapter when each edo (Kages, Swordsman, Nagato and Itachi) when they should get around 4 or 5 chapters of dedication.

Kishi started cutting the story shorter, his chapters have gotten shorter from 21 pages to 17 per week,

Now if you don't like this reasoning, you can simply go to another forum.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:14 AM   #248
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Re: Naruto_599

Not that I'm saying it makes sense, Obito being Tobi, because it doesn't, till Kishi explains it.
However, I wanna add my 2 cents to this.

Obito fighting Minato in less than a year: as impressive as this feat is, its hardly far fetched or outlandish for him to do this. All he did in that fight was use his s/t to try and warp Minato in. He wasn't exactly batterring him was he, so its REASONABLE that even a chunnin like Obito with such a haxed ability, could fight Minato.

Controlling the kyuubi: All Uchiha's can control the fox, with either the shatingan or Ms. Sasuke even suppressed it with his 3 tomoe sharingan and he did so accidentally. Madara and Tobi seemed to use a sharingan when they controlled it and since kamui is an Ms technique which we had no idea was being activated everytime Obito warped, he could have used his Ms to control Kuruma, without us seeing it.

The one and only issue I have with him controlling the kyuubi is not the feat itself, but rather, that the kyuubi recognized him/chakra/sharingan. So that naturally means, before Kuruma was sealed inside Mito and then Kushina, he encountered this same chakra/sharingan/person.

I still have a feeling that when the seal almost broke during Mito's labour, it was not by accident and that an attempt was made to release the kyuubi, but it failed.

I agree with Kyf that Shisui and Obito are anomalies in a way in respect to their ms. It seems they both had the same technique in each eye, varying slightly in its functioning. This strikes me as very odd and maybe their related in some way.

Did the technique kamui exist BEFORE Obito was born? If the technique originated from him then he trully was a very special and unique Uchiha. Same goes with Shisui and koto. Kamui being an Ms technique, should have caused Obito to lose his vision, regardless if he has Hashi's dna, yet his eyes seem in perfect condition.

So many questions, I hope Kishi will answer them for us.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:30 AM   #249
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Re: Naruto_599

It's all Rin's fault.

Womens are ebul !!!

I bring yall comedy

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=855623

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Old 08-30-2012, 10:46 AM   #250
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Re: Naruto_599

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Originally Posted by LonelyNinja View Post
I was thinking about that, too. Kishimoto would be my hero if he pulled that kind of stunt.
Yeah. I had a theory a long while ago that Tobi basically genjutsu'd everyone into doing what he wants, which was how he controlled the fourth mizukage yada yada Nagato brainwash yada yada why he wears a mask. Essentially, his appearance is based on how he can mindfuck you, so becoming Obito for Kakashi would be a suitable appearance.

It spawned from Itachi's black fire plant in Sasuke triggered by Tobi's sharingan - because just seeing a sharingan shouldn't have been enough, he'd have to have tried to use it, which genjutsu would be obvious. It would keep Tobi from manipulating Sasuke in a manner say like appearing to be Sasuke's father or what not and keep Tobi masked and Sasuke suspicious/moody.

Of course, that's far to complex for this manga now (and far too much like Shisui for KYF) and far more likely Itachi was just trying to assassinate Tobi like a boss so I have no faith in it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Tzu Men View Post
This manga doesn't need to make sense any more, it just needs to shovel out more confused entertainment like this.
And EXPLOSIONS!!!!!!! BIG BOOOMZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:47 AM   #251
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Re: Naruto_599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoro View Post
It's all Rin's fault.

Womens are ebul !!!

I bring yall comedy

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=855623
Oh man. What a bunch of fucking retards. Jesus Christ, really.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:52 AM   #252
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Re: Naruto_599

EoJ if you smell shit walk the other way... I mean it doesn't matter trying to give credibility to a storyline that is already bullshit and if you did guess tobi was obito than congrats on that alone but they (mibs i recall and others that i don't) were on the mark too when they predicted kishi gonna troll with obito cause that is what it is right now.. honestly tobi=obito sucks but whatever...
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:08 AM   #253
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Re: Naruto_599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
EoJ is crying his little heart out about how Minato's face in the monument and Kakashi being in the same Chuunin Exams as Obito are somehow retcons and not plot holes.
Actually, I said it was an art mistake. I only suggested Kishi may have wanted to expand Minato's time as Hokage when Miburo stated it was intentional and served an obvious and specific purpose. Since he didn't say what it was, the expansion of his reign was the only reason that came to mind for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Oh and I looked up Dennis Roddman. He was 5'9'' at the age of 17 (at the end of his 11th grade) and 6'5'' at the age of 20. Nice try bullshitting your way, but it's a noticeable growth spurt because it happened in less than 3 years instead of the normal 4 it'd take.
Mind sharing what that's from? I watched a documentary on him years ago and it was to have happened virtually overnight (I remember random stuff). Few other sites I checked stated it to occur under two years. While doing so, I've read about Dennis Johnson going from 5'9" to 6'4" in a year, David Robinson going from 5'9" to 6'7" in a year, and Dwight Howard going from 5'8" to 6'9" in a single year.

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The thing is, they're minor details that aren't the focus of the panel, unlike the Hokage Monument, which the faces were the damn focus of the panel representing Obito's desire to emulate the Hokage ideal.
I'm aware, but I considered it a mistake out of habit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
So no, it wasn't a fuck up due to distraction, it was deliberate. And Kishi deliberately put Minato's face in the Monument 2 whole years before his official entitlement to the position of Hokage.
And doing that makes sense, how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Henge no Jutsu ALWAYS leaves a trail of smoke when used, so if Obito used it to fool Kisame, he must be a goddamn psychic to put himself in henge just in case Kisame would want to see his face. Or maybe, as in the most logical stance, the faces were the same
You don't remember that chapter well at all do you? Obito had intended to recruit him and smoke was already present: (Two bottom left panels) http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v54/c507/10.html

Kisame only knew he was there because Obito deliberately stepped forward some more to reveal his silhouette after having Yagura say, "I can trust a man like you." You can't tell a guy you trust him, step into the light a little bit, show him your Sharingan so he knows you're mind controlling his Mizukage, and not do the full reveal. You're telling me the guy who knew to unleash Kurama while Kushina was in childbirth, fooled Itachi and Nagato, wouldn't plan for something so obvious? Kisame only knew to ask questions when they were presented to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Madara should (and I mean should, I'm not certain he is) be the one behind Yagura to validate Kisame's flashback, but the thing is either Kisame shares ACt's racial myopia or Kishi fucked up yet another plotline just to detour the fans
Tobi's unmasking for Kisame wasn't exactly random: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c404

Even if it was Madara the first time, Obito could've used the transformation jutsu well before confronting him.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:35 AM   #254
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Re: Naruto_599

Hey guys,

Here is my 2 cents:

Since tobi=obito is annoying because of major inconsistancies everyone mentionned (I wont list them one more time);
If we wanna try to find an other explanation and if we remember:
  • Tobi pouring goo instead of blood
  • Tobi claiming he is nobody
  • Zetsu being able during the "war" to take appearance and imitate chakra and so on, of anyone he has DNA or at least had contact with (remember Neji and others).

Then we can think, as many stated, that tobi could have a connection to zetsu (being the main zetsu, being a zetsu clone, being a better version of zetsu created by ???, whatever) and that's how he can mindfuck people by appearing as who he wants (as long as he has DNA or whatever Zetsu needs to do that) opposed to mindfuck people with genjutsu as ACT was suggesting.

That would explain different appearances (long hair/short hair, Kisame recognizing madara, chakra recognition etc.)

Still, even though he is just a kind of zetsu taking appearance of Obito to mindfuck kakashi/gai, he still actually had obito's eye for all those years...

I, maybe naively, still think that Kishi knows, in the great scheme, what he is doing and would not make such major decision that would screw his work withtout realizing all the inconsistencies with his own story line.

So hopefully for the sake of his manga, even if not this one he will have some kind of good explanation...
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:36 AM   #255
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Re: Naruto_599

Am I the only one to take this chapter in a neutral way? I'll wait for the next chapter till Kishi gives an explanation. Hopefully it will be good. The manga has been on a continuous downward spiral after the Pain arc or perhaps after the Kage meet. This revelation seriously doesn't help.
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