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Old 09-13-2012, 10:52 PM   #16
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

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This pleases me.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:18 PM   #17
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

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Originally Posted by rokudaime_hokage View Post
But honestly, this is what religion does. It can make regular descent people turn into monsters.
In his essay "To Perpetual Peace," Kant wrote that "the state of peace among men living in close proximity is not the natural state; instead, the natural state is that of war." He understood that man didn't need anything to spur on the inherently combatant nature in humans, they simply acquire excuses to "battle." This isn't the fault of religion, because if that were true, then there should be more radicals in every existing religion and this should be happening more frequently, and everywhere. As Mibs said, they would look for any reason to harm other people because that's in their nature.

If religion did not exist, mankind would find something else to use as a means of attaining power.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:54 AM   #18
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

Off course they would find other means to still kill each other (mankind).
Bad people do bad things regardless of religion but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.
I claim that because there is enough passages in their scriptures to support the stupid shit they did. Just like there was enough scripture in the bible to support the crusades or the inquisition.
I also kinda dislike that "it's in their nature" phrase. Since we are social animals I don't believe that shit is in our nature at all. (could be proven wrong though), although maybe Miburo was referring to their society or some shit like that I dunno.


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This isn't the fault of religion, because if that were true, then there should be more radicals in every existing religion and this should be happening more frequently, and everywhere.
it happened... frequently and everywhere it just that I believe we most grew out of it not (too long ago) if you check our history. I guess our morals evolved in a way.

This is may opinion: You are your own moral compass that is why Christians (can't talk about Muslims because I don't know that much) can disregard bad passages (slavery, god making Abraham try kill his son, etc) and keep or cherish the good ones.

Last edited by rokudaime_hokage; 09-14-2012 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:47 AM   #19
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

I rarely discuss politics or religion online, it serves no purpose other than to piss people off. But I have to comment that it is not religion that pushes (most) people to abuse it. It's power, and religion provides these people an excuse. But it's true with everything. Science, philosophy, religion, even economics have had the sad fate of being used as a tool for people to control, subjugate, or kill other people.

Look at Charles Darwin, controversial to many, but an all around decent man. His cousin used him and his finding on evolution as a tool to promote eugenics, which was used as an excuse to sterilize or cast people who were different out of society. It was even used by nazis as an excuse to kill Jews and other unfavorables.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:00 PM   #20
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

So what? What's your point? We're not talking about Nazi Germany. We're talking about fucking thugs killing innocent people because some random dude made fun of their religious prophet guy. What is the basis of their stance here, in this specific scenario? Fucking religion.

Yes, irrational fanaticism is bad. Not all of that deals with religion, and not every single bad thing is done in the name of religion. But bad things are done in the name of religion, and the religious beliefs are irrational. It's not comparable to biological evolution, which is fucking rational and has a ton of supporting evidence. They're not the same things at all. If something is fucking illogical and stupid then it's not good. It's great that you can be religious and not be a goddamn psychopathic monster. But it's not great that these religions can very, very easily be interpreted as promoting some pretty horrible shit if you actually take them seriously. And it's illogical to take them seriously. Which is why it would be better if no one took that shit seriously. It really, seriously, fucking would.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:31 PM   #21
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

And goddammit. I wish all the people I like here were goddamn atheists. Because insulting shit my buddies believe isn't something I really enjoy doing. But goddamn.

The reason these guys did this doesn't matter. Even if it was in the name of glorious science or whatever instead of bronze age mysticism it would still be unjustifiable and wrong. So don't get me wrong here. I don't give a fuck what their reason was, because no matter what it was it was stupid and horrible. These guys are assholes, plain and simple.

But the goddamn defensiveness of religious shit is seriously not good. First off, it's not even necessary in this context if we all agree with the above paragraph. These guys are horrible people, we should all hopefully agree, and leave it at that. And secondly, the same defenses could probably be used to defend a lot of belief systems used as the reasoning to do bad things. Like, racial supremacy. Hey man, just because people kill people of other races because they believe their race is superior doesn't mean anything. It's in human nature to be dicks, if they didn't do it for that reason they'd do it for some other reason. So...shouldn't blame the ideology, amirite?

It really isn't that great of a defense.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:52 PM   #22
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
And goddammit. I wish all the people I like here were goddamn atheists. Because insulting shit my buddies believe isn't something I really enjoy doing. But goddamn.

The reason these guys did this doesn't matter. Even if it was in the name of glorious science or whatever instead of bronze age mysticism it would still be unjustifiable and wrong. So don't get me wrong here. I don't give a fuck what their reason was, because no matter what it was it was stupid and horrible. These guys are assholes, plain and simple.

But the goddamn defensiveness of religious shit is seriously not good. First off, it's not even necessary in this context if we all agree with the above paragraph. These guys are horrible people, we should all hopefully agree, and leave it at that. And secondly, the same defenses could probably be used to defend a lot of belief systems used as the reasoning to do bad things. Like, racial supremacy. Hey man, just because people kill people of other races because they believe their race is superior doesn't mean anything. It's in human nature to be dicks, if they didn't do it for that reason they'd do it for some other reason. So...shouldn't blame the ideology, amirite?

It really isn't that great of a defense.
I didn't mean to defend it, only that he [rokudaime_hokage] needed to calm his tits, because saying "religion turns people into monsters" is an open ended statement that implied any religious person not a sociopath is a monster-in-waiting. I probably read it too fast and saw something he didn't intend, then wrote about it before I thought it through, but still.

And what I think emachina was trying to say [by example] was that people will even use science to achieve an irrational, harmful means.

There's a lot of bad parts about a lot of religion, and I by no means intent to make light of that, I simply think he was targeting something unreasonably.


Quote:
I also kinda dislike that "it's in their nature" phrase. Since we are social animals I don't believe that shit is in our nature at all.
There's a power struggle in every relationship, regardless of it's nature. This isn't just about abrasiveness, it's about an innate reaction in humans to survive, and power is a factor in survival.

I brought up Kant because he also later says, in the same essay, that "the homage that every nation pays (at least in words) to the concept of 'right' proves, nonetheless, that there is in a man still great, though presently dormant, the moral aptitude to master the evil principle in himself (a principle he cannot deny) and to hope that others will also overcome it." He's talking specifically about the way people relate to one another on an international scale, which is what this situation is, and why I brought it up in the first place. He recognized full well that people, especially in groups, will do what it takes to achieve power. We [being rational, collected individuals/groups] hope that people have the ability to tame that desire and learn to function peacefully with others. They did not, and that's more what this is about, not whatever stupid thing they believe in that they used as their reasoning; it was a grotesque way to gain some sort of upper-hand, likely political and/or social because they feel threatened.

Mybad if that didn't make sense. I usually have to take a lot more time to order my thoughts in a logical manner.
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Last edited by Vanity; 09-14-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:23 PM   #23
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

If that is what RH meant, then I definitely agree that it would be a stupid thing of him to say. A really stupid thing. If, however, he was suggesting that religion certainly makes it quite easy for normally rational people to justify irrational stances then I would have to agree with him.

Homosexual rights are only an issue at all in our country because of the large religious opposition of them here. I'm sure we all know that. All of us worth discussing this shit with, anyway. I know people who aren't normally irrational bigots that are against gay marriage. I think these people are normally decent individuals. However, solely because of their religious beliefs, they have taken an irrational, immoral stance. Otherwise good people taking shitty stances because of religion. If that's what that dude was referring to, then he is right.

He's still a fag, of course. But his point wouldn't be invalid if he was saying what I assume he was saying.

As for the other baby blue, I understand what he was saying. I was just saying it's stupid to compare a scientific theory to religion. Yes, both can be used to attempt to justify unjustifiable shit. Anything can. But pretty sure Darwin's Origin of Species doesn't say to kill all the jews. While the Quran, from what I understand, pretty much says to kill non-believers and shit. It's a stupid comparison.

Oh, and I wasn't giving you any shit. Whatever you personally say is totally cool with me because I like you and you're hawt. I was just saying fuck you to the rest of these guys.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:33 PM   #24
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

My point is, you don't blame a fire for destroying a house, you blame the guy that started it. Two embassies in two different countries that were run by the same group, Muslim Brotherhood, were attacked on the same day, using the same excuse that a youtube video caused "spontaneous" rioting. They basically said: "You hurt our feelings". The focus here should be, not the excuse these people use as grounds for killing Americans. But what groups are planning and coordinating these types of attacks.

Also, from my first post, we might have fewer people wanting to kill Americans if we'd stop sending drones in to blow the fuck out of people in countries we have no business sending drones to. If Canada sent a drone into Montana to blow up a small town because they had intel on a terrorist they were hunting might be there, Americans would be pretty pissed at Canada.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:39 PM   #25
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

Hey guys, we should focus on blaming the people responsible. Very next paragraph: Victim blaming.

Well played, Ema.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:46 PM   #26
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

Point noted.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:55 PM   #27
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
If that is what RH meant, then I definitely agree that it would be a stupid thing of him to say. A really stupid thing. If, however, he was suggesting that religion certainly makes it quite easy for normally rational people to justify irrational stances then I would have to agree with him.

Homosexual rights are only an issue at all in our country because of the large religious opposition of them here. I'm sure we all know that. All of us worth discussing this shit with, anyway. I know people who aren't normally irrational bigots that are against gay marriage. I think these people are normally decent individuals. However, solely because of their religious beliefs, they have taken an irrational, immoral stance. Otherwise good people taking shitty stances because of religion. If that's what that dude was referring to, then he is right.

He's still a fag, of course. But his point wouldn't be invalid if he was saying what I assume he was saying.

As for the other baby blue, I understand what he was saying. I was just saying it's stupid to compare a scientific theory to religion. Yes, both can be used to attempt to justify unjustifiable shit. Anything can. But pretty sure Darwin's Origin of Species doesn't say to kill all the jews. While the Quran, from what I understand, pretty much says to kill non-believers and shit. It's a stupid comparison.

Oh, and I wasn't giving you any shit. Whatever you personally say is totally cool with me because I like you and you're hawt. I was just saying fuck you to the rest of these guys.
s;eojfoij'kjk hghvfdsdcfhgkhjmk This is all of my rage right now. I was mad as fuck when I started frequenting again and this thread had been closed because I have SO MUCH TO SAY about that retarded shit. Did you know Romney had the nerve to say that it wasn't a civil rights issue?

Entirely other argument altogether, but still.

I agree entirely that religion can make people fucking crazy, but I still think it's the wrong target in this situation. When I see shit like this happen, I see terrorism really is and it repulses me.

If RH meant what I thought, I was only annoyed because I don't like when people [especially whole groups] are attacked for things they believe. People have a right to think what they want, so long as they don't harm, or infringe on the rights of others. I don't have to agree or think it's okay, but they still have that right-- and to bring up the Religion specifically, after everyone was okay with calling out the Radicals for being what they are, colossal cunt rags, seemed unnecessary.

Especially since he then targeted all of the other, non-assholes that were like "duuuude, this shit isn't cool, and we're sorry they do this in the name of what we believe," by saying "I don't wanna judge the whole country/religion BUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTT," that kind of makes me wonder if he was implying what I think he was.

Probably not, but I have this really abrasive, asshole of a friend that will shit all over religion any chance he gets [it doesn't insult me, as I'm not really religious, it's just annoying]. We could be talking about puff pastries...he'll find a way. I think it's made me a little too sensitive, since nearly everything he says has some sort of implied attack on someone for something, and that shit kills me. So, sorry RH if you meant what Mibs said.

But if you did what I think, knock your shit off is what I've been trying to say.

Edit: Mibs, baby, when are we gonna get murried <3 ahahahahahahahahahah. Marriage.

Another thing-
I'm in PoliSci 200something right now, and there's some fag in my class that's constantly spewing off stupid shit, but yesterday we were specifically talking about Libya, and he was all "WE SHUD JUST STURT SENDIN UM LOADZ OF ANTI-MUSLERM SHET AND TELL UM TO DEAL WITH IT HUUURRRRR." Give violent, homicidal groups more fuel for their harmful outbursts. They'll become desensitized.

He's that guy.
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Last edited by Vanity; 09-14-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:00 PM   #28
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

Really wish you sent those pics to a working email of mine. <3
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:04 PM   #29
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

PM me your e-mail. We can exchange nudez
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:08 PM   #30
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Re: US Ambassador in Libya Killed

I'm more concerned with why the fuck we would have a U.S. Ambassador on the ground, in an unstable nation, during unstable times, with little security on 9/11. This was an attack on America that we should have been prepared for. It's likely the ones who coordinated the attack were also directly responsible for the movie that had everyone upset. Considering a bunch of dubbing and scenes that the actors said were not in the scripts, the unknown producer, the radical change from "Desert Warriors" which was supposed to depict a more positive view, to "Innocence of Muslims".

But yeah, we should have been on guard an more alert on 9/11, we should have flexed that American muscle. I also read on a couple different places that Obama went to sleep during all this on Tuesday night. What do you guys think of all this? Sounds pretty shitty to me.
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