Gamabunta

Kyf it's already mentioned above by kael.

And yes full extent Izanagi is, you should probably check out again. Rinnegan too perhaps.

@Jeykl, i commented after reading everything in here and i don't think kamui should go that way unless its fit in for kakashi too.

jekyl_hyde

At the core, based on what we've all (yes, including KYF) said about Obito being Tobi and shit that has followed since this presentation from Kishi, I believe we are all in agreement with you assessment.

Kishi on the other hand.... I think you know where I'm heading with this...

The best way of putting it is that Kishi is half-assing it (literally it seems). Based on the parameters that Kishi has established these past two chapters, no matter how concocted and inaccurate they are, provide a basis for KYF's theory.

Amuro

Kakashis eye HAS been affected from using kamui. When he, naruto, Sakura, and chiyo met the itachi clone he asked Itachi how bad his eye sight has gotten. Then itachi was all like "kakashi! But how?" That's not what he said exactly but that's the jist. For kakashi to say that that means he knew the side effects of ms...how?

The Special One

Also, Kakashi did not spam (he can't or he'll die) his MS as much as Sasuke did. I think Kakashi will eventually go blind, but his relatively prudent usage of Kamui will maintain the "light" in his eye relatively longer in comparison to say, other Uchiha whose eyes went dark or near dark.

In the span of about a month, Sasuke has used every bit of his Mangekyou sharingan in every fight until exhaustion. And I'm sure busting out Susano-o at the drop of a pin did his pre-EMS eyes no favors.

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^My first thread.lol

Gamabunta

Any theory have a basis when the manga is full-assed written. But you know that is what failed plot-holes filling kishi/obito fanboys won't agree on.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

What kal mentioned?? He completely ignored the last chapter and everything else that has been happening with the SG+Hashirama's power... or rather Uchiha+senju/uzumaki....

first we had shisui, an uchiha who had chakra identical to hasirama's mistaken by Ao within danzou and also the only thing that could power shisui's MS as he once did, as opposed to every ten years... And he had Kotoamatsukami, the super powered tsukuyomi which is a whole new eye power and hashirama's power is what is being implied as the power of it with basic Uchiha power too...
Then we had edo madara use hasirama's power to turn his EMS into the RG... showing again that hashirama's power can create a more powerful SG... because uniting the two halves of the sage's power of Yin and yang, Uchiha and senju/uzumaki...

Now we have obito with a hashirama body and half body of his own... and it will be able to create a new eye power by combining obito's uchiha power and the hashirama's power he can use with zetsu tobi and his own half zetsu body...

That is 3 references of the SG being supped up by using hashirama's power through the use of his cells or DNA... How is there nothing implied by the manga with three references so how can kal's post be anyting other then denial with so much references to the subject at this point in the manga??


And I agree it should fit for kakashi too... But he could as a hattake be part of a brother clan to the senju/uzumaki... Or a survivor of the experiment yamato was in too... Kakashi is being controlled somehow and telepathic mind control could be how it is being done meaning he has to have use to hashirama's power to use such a telepathy...
IDK, we will find out next chapter...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

minato uchiha

@Kyf: not saying you're wrong but lets consider a few things, and some of the things you said, I agree with. Others I dont.

Koto: we have NO way of knowing if the 10 yr limitation applies to Shisui himself. We know it applied to when Itachi had his eye but its seems highly unlikely(imo) that Shisui himself needed Hashi's power to use koto or else wait a decade to use his own power.

Koto is the most powerful genjutsu but that does in no way mean, it requires Hashi's dna to power it or awaken it. Its an Uchiha Ms technique and in keeping with the trend, most Ms techniques are said to be the most powerful jutsu in their particular area.

Example, amatersau: most powerful fire jutsu in the manga. Tsukuyomi: quickest most powerful genjutsu we've seen in the manga, when used by Itachi. Susanoo: I know the sacred treasures aren't Uchiha per say, but the point still stands. Totsuka, most powerful and quickest sealing technique we've seen and Yata, the greatest elemental defence in the manga.

So the point is, the fact that Koto is so powerful, does NOT necessarily mean its due to Hashirama. I do agree with you that Shisui's chakra must be the same in colour to Hashirama's, if Ao and his byakugan thought so.

The origin of the rinnegan is an iffy subject. Kabuto and Orochimaru's hypothesis about the final stage of the sharingan, made no mention of combining Uchiha and Senju to achieve it. On the other hand, Madara only awakened his rinnegan after VOTE, which infers that it had something to do with stealing the 1st dna.

Izanagi, as you correctly said, has different versions and forms. The original.Izanagi was the Sage's, as Obito explained, was to create. Then we have the Uchiha kinjutsu which did NOT require Senju dna. Lol ppl seem to omit that. Finally, we have Izanagi powered by Hashi's/Senju dna which allows the user to prolong Izanagi's effect.

About the Hatake Clan, we have NO IDEA of their origin and nothing implies they are from the Younger Son. We currently know of only 2 Hatake members, Kakashi and his father. Kakashi's low chakra capacity suggests the opposite of what you are claiming so I fail to see the links to Senju/Uzamaki.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

But that is my point... If the MS of shisui's requires hashirama's power to use like any other MS jutsu (couple times a day at most) and he did not have to wait ten years between each of his uses of his own genjutsu otherwise he would have used it only twice or so in his lifetime...
Shisui must of had hashirama's chakra or something equal to it, thus the reason he could use Kotoamatsukami more then once every ten years, and itachi stated only hashirama's chakra could do this so... it had to be hashirama's chakra just as itachi stated; it must be to use it more then once a decade...

How does talent apply with Koto? Itachi, a genjutsu master still awakened tsukuyomi... and sasuke, a master of ninjutsu still awakened amaterasu...
However, Obito, an average uchiha , but with the power of hashirama senju at his disposal, awakened Kamui... a ninjutsu that surpasses amaterasu... and in both eyes...

Then we have shisui... an uchiha who has been implied to have hashirama's chakra on two separate occasions just happens to also have a jutsu that surpasses the standard like obito's does (Kotoamatsukima is a super tsukuyomi)... which is in both eyes as well, just like obito's kamui is...

ANd now that the manga implies that it would be senju+uchiha's power, or rather hashirama's power plus an uchiha's that would take the power of the SG to a whole other level which would awaken a power never seen before as opposed to the standard tsukuyomi, amaterasu and sasanoo...

Kotoamatsukami is a whole new level of genjutsu from tsukuyomi and never seen before or since...
Kamui is also of a whole other level from amaterasu and has never been seen before or since... All evidence points to Koto and kamui as eye technique that come from the union of senju and uchiha (obito/shisui+hashirama's power)... IMO...

Most powerful fire attack yes, but kamui surpasses amaterasu by leagues... and tsukuyomi is nothing compared to Kotoamatsukami that can literally do what tsukuyomi wishes it could... actually control the mind of the enemy and without them having a clue either...

Kamui is the hashirama powered up amaterasu and Kotoamatsukami is the hashirama powered up tsukuyomi IMO... Such powerful jutsu have only come from shinobi linked to hashirama's chakra/cells...
while those who awaken amaterasu, tsukuyomi and sasanoo are all basic uchiha's with no other bloodline of the sage at their disposal...

But how? Those who only possess the power of the uchiha awaken tsukuyomi, amaterasu and sasanoo like itachi, sasuke, izuna and madara...
Meanwhile, those who possess the power of the uchiha and are known to have use of hashirama senju's power have awaken MS jutsu that surpass the standard, but in both eyes, not one different for each eye... Kakashi being the only case this is off, but his ancestry or role in any experiments with hashirama's or regular senju's DNA has yet to of been mentioned so it is still possible...

And yes shisui's color is what is mentioned by AO, but it was shisui's chakra none the less AO recognized in danzou's arm, shoulder and eye... But turned out to be hashirama's power instead implying that shisui had use of hashirama's chakra making him perhaps an unknown survivor of Oro's experiment...
Then itachi stated that to use shisui's eye more then once a decade/10 years... that one would have to use hashirama's chakra... and since shisui had to of used his jutsu more then 2-3 times in his life... SHisui had to of had access to hashirama's chakra to use his own jutsu... thus why shisui's chakra was mistaken in danzou's arm, shoulder and eye... because shisui used hashirama's chakra... the reason just has yet to be mentioned...

No it did not mention it... I agree... however, it literally showed it IMO.....

Madara uchiha with his EMS (the full power of the SG) had his body altered and infused completely with hashirama's cells to give him a hashirama body, thus created a madara/hashirama hybrid bringing together senju and uchiha which then created the RG out of the EMS...
It was due to the union of the elder son of the sage (uchiha ancestor) and the younger so of the sage (Senju/uzumaki ancestor) being reunited, after the sage himself split his power between his two sons...

Good analysis.... glad to see not everyone is deluding themselves about Izanagi not having different versions... Kudos...

I know, kakashi's lack of stamina does make it hard to see him as a descendant of the younger son of the sage like hashirama is... But, kakashi's inability to use the jutsu as it can be... like how obito uses it, could be from the lack of hashirama chakra, but still have regular senju level chakra... It's just that obito has two different variations that are more like two separate techniques while kakashi can only use one variation half way by collapsing space to draw things into another dimension, but lacking the ability to bring w/e back out like obito can do... it's something that could be due to obito having hashirama, the ultimate senju's chakra while kakashi only has at best the chakra level of an avergae senju...
So maybe kakashi can produce enough chakra to awaken a version of kamui, but cannot use it properly or very long due to his lacking of hashirama senju level chakra for stamina and more power... but still senju-like chakra so he can awaken and half ass use kamui though...
That is what I think might be going on...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

k-lai

^makes sense to me...

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Maybe, just maybe I may be able to do it and you would not be there when I'm doing it but just so you know, I did it without your help and that'll be my legacy.

Law&Order

Doesn't matter. Kakashi will get ems when he performs TNJ on Obito while Obito dies and is given the second Obito eye. But but but it has to be from a brothers eye to get ems. Doesn't matter it's Kishi and Kakashi will get this easy power upgrade.

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Gamabunta

Clearly it says here that Izanagi can only be used by those who possess Uchiha and Senju.


And here it says it was derived from this but not a different version of Izanagi.


Then it shows how Danzo sucks. Not that its different version of what Tobi used. He just practically sucks at controlling Senju power.


And then the ultimate retcon which makes practically everything above being said by Tobi as a lie.


Now i have to admit that i am confused. How can the guy who tears for arguments without being mock or insulted, sit back and laugh at the piece of fact from the manga that clearly states the Izanagi can only be used by those who possess Uchiha and Senju? And the best part of it all they refused to believe kishi makes series of plotholes. LOL

minato uchiha

Its very simple, just allow yourself to have an open mind first.
1. Izanagi like Izanami, is a kinjutsu amongst the Uchiha. Izanami does NOT need Senju to use and its the direct counter of Izanagi. Are you suggesting that in the 'old days', an Uchiha will steal Senju dna to perform Izanagi?

2. In that same scene that Tobi explains it, he also LIES about being Madara, or didn't you realise that?

3. The Sage's ORIGINAL IZANAGI.created form from nothing. Is that what the Izanagi that Danzo and Tobi used do? No, they created an illusion to escape death or a fatal injury so obviously it is NOT the same Izanagi is it?

Now why dont you answer those questions, like I did yours!

Gamabunta

1.2.3

Open-minded simply to accept an opinion sucks but i do respect your opinion. And no, i suggested its probably a retcon cause i think putting everything that tobi states as a lie is being overly biased. Furthermore, we don't really know know how advance those uchiha were back then and where itachi get those info from cause if we were to trace... Most of the stuff Itachi learned or were lead to the road of discovery is from........... (why don't you answer this too)

khrystal

LOLWTF? Madara awakened the rinnegan way before he had any kind of Hashirama shit in him

gringie

/\ how do you know? i would love to see that chapter showing me madara had the rg without the help of any experiments

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