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Old 10-11-2012, 09:19 PM   #1
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No, you are not entitled to your opinion

http://theconversation.edu.au/no-you...r-opinion-9978

OK, so this really isn't a debate, but I don't care. So often we are confronted with "It's my opinion so you can't say I'm wrong" or other crazy values that I think this well thought retort to the whole "I'm entitled to my opinion" is worth a read to all who care.

If tl;dr, here's he argument breifly:
Quote:
... I say something like this: “I’m sure you’ve heard the expression ‘everyone is entitled to their opinion.’ Perhaps you’ve even said it yourself, maybe to head off an argument or bring one to a close. Well, as soon as you walk into this room, it’s no longer true. You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:46 PM   #2
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

Me Gusta. Because I can.

Kidding, this is a good way to educate in how to think about and make deciscions for yourself and others.


"If “Everyone’s entitled to their opinion” just means no-one has the right to stop people thinking and saying whatever they want, then the statement is true, but fairly trivial. No one can stop you saying that vaccines cause autism, no matter how many times that claim has been disproven.

But if ‘entitled to an opinion’ means ‘entitled to have your views treated as serious candidates for the truth’ then it’s pretty clearly false. And this too is a distinction that tends to get blurred."

Nice way to put it.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:14 AM   #3
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

I think the idea of "everyone being entitled to their opinion" is meant for inconsequential, subjective things like favourite colours and shit. Unfortunately, the people who aren't bright enough to defend their opinion are also not bright enough to understand this distinction.

Last edited by Mal; 10-13-2012 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Wrong prefix lolololol
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:43 AM   #4
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

Quote:
The problem with “I’m entitled to my opinion” is that, all too often, it’s used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like” – and by extension, continuing to argue is somehow disrespectful.
oh the so many times ive heard this one, especially since my work revolves around kids. When i tell them to do something or tell them they can't say this or that because its rude, mean, inappropriate, etc. they often bring this up. my reply, "i'm not asking for your opinion."

Or if they are a kid that im not in charge of and they do bad shyte, I say "i dont care if im not your mom or dad, you cannot do/say that. Either stop or get off school grounds." Usually its cause their parents may be in school grounds but all they do is chit chat with other parents while their kids fucking run around like doing shit they arent suppose to be doing.

There's been times where I have to tell parents to watch their own damn kids. There's been times where a parent believes their own kid and not the other kid, making them the victim. ive had to defend kids from other parents before. i think a lot of the kids today are too empowered with this "say and do whatever you want" campaign. It just makes for another idiotic and spoiled generation.

//more often than not, they mix it with "i have freedom of speech." and im like gahhhhhhhhhhhhh.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:02 AM   #5
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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//more often than not, they mix it with "i have freedom of speech." and im like gahhhhhhhhhhhhh.
As you may know, Tabitha and I volunteer (me less often now that I'm on the road all the time) with our church Youth Group. Last year a group of the kids was declaring "free country" and just doing whatever they wanted (nothing bad, really, just taking chairs from people and such). When they ignored my telling them to stop for the third time, I approached the one who started it. Took his hat, pushed him out of his chair, pulled his shoes off his feet, hurled them down the hallway, pushed him down some more, sat in his chair and declared "free country."

It hasn't come up since.


Also, kids need to be told when they're wrong and praised for effort rather than ability (though that second part isn't related, I recently read an article on the subject and felt like including it).
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:14 AM   #6
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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Originally Posted by Mal View Post
I think the idea of "everyone being entitled to their opinion" is meant for inconsequential, subjective things like favourite colours and shit. Unfortunately, the people who aren't bright enough to defend their opinion are also not bright enough to understand this distinction.
I agree with this, but I kinda want to the limits of your idea on what's inconsequential.

Mostly because, as an example, I have pulled the "it's my opinion, fuck off" card during an argument once because some dude and I disagreed on how seriously I should take gender roles and the subsequent social pressure to fulfill them.

The conversation went something like this:
me- Men have delicate egos.
him- when you say it like that, you're make that social pressure less of a reality, maaaan.

Am I wrong in believing gender roles are irrational and should be laughed at because of their absurdity, because they need to change?



I promise this will lead to more discussion, I'm just super tired right now and can't be fucked talking about Wendt's theory on social construct, and how it applies to "well it's what I think." Not right now, anyways.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:19 PM   #7
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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Originally Posted by Mal View Post
As you may know, Tabitha and I volunteer (me less often now that I'm on the road all the time) with our church Youth Group. Last year a group of the kids was declaring "free country" and just doing whatever they wanted (nothing bad, really, just taking chairs from people and such). When they ignored my telling them to stop for the third time, I approached the one who started it. Took his hat, pushed him out of his chair, pulled his shoes off his feet, hurled them down the hallway, pushed him down some more, sat in his chair and declared "free country."

It hasn't come up since.


Also, kids need to be told when they're wrong and praised for effort rather than ability (though that second part isn't related, I recently read an article on the subject and felt like including it).
i have taken hats if they have one, just to divert their attention to me, esp if they arent listening. hats seem special to some of them. im not allowed to put my hands on the kids like that. If its a group of them, direct attention to the ring leader initially, but the others all have consequences as well.

ive done both, told them why they are wrong when they are, and praise them for their efforts. I teach these kids how to crochet when its my workshop day, its not an easy task, even if u are an adult learning. it takes patience and effort when you first start out. not to mention some motor skills. a lot of them get frustrated because they dont have that patience but i help push them along. they know what the rewards are if they learn this skill.
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Old 10-20-2012, 01:10 PM   #8
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

Oh man, I fucking hate this shit. Only people who say that opinion shit like that automatically makes their stances not stupid as fuck are idiot pussies. You challenge my stance on anything, fucking anything, and I'll back it up. And if I can't then I'll man the fuck up and abandon or amend that stance.

I agree with the guy in the article when he says that pussies just use that shit to avoid admitting that their stances are total crap. Unmanly.

And shit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwejaBaoiZs&feature=plcp
Goddamn. What an old, wrinkly retard. She probably walked away from that all smugly going "Ha, I'm awesome." All because none one manned up and called her a fucking idiot. Being mean to stupid people makes the world a better place. We shouldn't tolerate them, and we damn sure shouldn't be accepting or encouraging when people partake in being dumbasses. Don't want people making fun of you? Then don't be stupid, idiot.

@kids talk-pushing kids and shit gets you auto-fired around here, at the very least. Luckily I've only coached wrestling, where I can get away with lateral dropping kids that are being idiots har har.
@Van-I guess that is okay if you didn't want to bother getting into a debate/discussion about it. You are a woman, after all. They're usually viewed as non-combative, I do believe. So it's all good. ; )
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:04 PM   #9
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
@Van-I guess that is okay if you didn't want to bother getting into a debate/discussion about it. You are a woman, after all. They're usually viewed as non-combative, I do believe. So it's all good. ; )
Don't make me hurt you. <3

My issue with his point was that I felt any moron that has taken a Psych 101 should know that gender roles are entirely a social construct; ideals that only continue to exist because people continue humor them. If someone wants to debate something worth while, like how you cannot use the political realm to endorse religious discrimination, then sure, I don't mind telling someone why they're wrong all day. It's when some faggot that's insecure with his own sexuality or some nonsense that tell me, a "female," who suffers from just as many gender-ideal based criticisms and pressures that he has/does/will--a "female" that lives in a country where politicians are still trying to argue that the Fair Pay act is irrelevant and unnecessary, that still believes women should be home makers that pump out babies, that still needs to objectify women to appease the masses for media's sake...it's when that guy tells me that I should never order food for a man, because I might bruise his pathetic man-ego, that I kind of just stare at him and go "hey, fuck you and fuck off."

I don't even identify with women***, and I think gender identity is a complete waste of time. I shouldn't have to act delicate and soft spoken, or appear less dominant because it appeases males. If a man needs me to be less awesome because an assertion of my bitchin' personality means he's less of a man, then he is fucking pathetic. I jumped onto the "you can't tell me how to feel about this," because of several reasons, some of which include: he was trying to assert himself over me with his feels, and that's disgusting; he had no basis other than "other people make this a thing, so you should make it a thing as well."

So, in the case of the repulsively pathetic issue of "the male problem," how much, or how long, do I have to argue with someone about it before I'm allowed to say "let's just agree to disagree, because this is my 'opinion' and you're not going to change my mind"?

We've establish that we shouldn't argue whether or not chocolate is a good preference, because that's silly. So, I think what I'm asking is, when does a social issue become silly? Or any other intellectual "issue?"

*** I want to elaborate on this a bit just to add some perspective: I don't consider myself to be socially female. I don't necessarily think I'm a man, but I certainly don't think I'm female, and because our culture doesn't really allow for it semantically, when asked "what is your gender?" I say I am a man. But that doesn't mean I want to be an atomically correct man. I'm annoyed with my reproductive organs, but I don't want a penis, I simply do not think of myself as being effeminate, and because there is no word for "not a man and not a woman," I say "man," as it's merely more accurate than "woman."
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Last edited by Vanity; 10-21-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:13 AM   #10
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

Goddamn, manly. <3

But yeah, that's a whole different thing. I'm pretty sure this topic is referring to stupid people thinking we should all just auto-respect everyone's opinions. Even if those opinions are completely irrational and shitty. And just because someone thinks something or takes a particular stance doesn't mean we should take it seriously and treat it with respect. We shouldn't. We should treat actual rational, thought out stances with respect and treat shitty stupid ones like they're shitty and stupid.

Your thing doesn't fall under that discussion. You're just saying "Hey, you're a fucktard and I don't want to talk to fucktards about this shit, so fuck off." You're not hiding behind some ideological pansy crap about how it's totally cool that you can't back up your stupid shit because it's all 'just opinions derp'. You just don't want to get into it with dipshits. That's completely fine and totally cool.

It's not really a matter of the issue itself when it comes to those things, but rather whether the stance being argued for or against is grounded with reason...or something like that.

More importantly, you actually know a dude who thinks chicks shouldn't be all manly because it makes him feel unmanly? Like chicks should stay at home and vacuum because otherwise they might go out and kick his pansy ass? That guy should worry more about upping his manliness instead of being scared of babes. I wish chicks would go out and do more awesome shit like manly grappling and shit. It would make jujitsu way less gay.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:57 AM   #11
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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Goddamn, manly. <3

But yeah, that's a whole different thing. I'm pretty sure this topic is referring to stupid people thinking we should all just auto-respect everyone's opinions. Even if those opinions are completely irrational and shitty. And just because someone thinks something or takes a particular stance doesn't mean we should take it seriously and treat it with respect. We shouldn't. We should treat actual rational, thought out stances with respect and treat shitty stupid ones like they're shitty and stupid.

Your thing doesn't fall under that discussion. You're just saying "Hey, you're a fucktard and I don't want to talk to fucktards about this shit, so fuck off." You're not hiding behind some ideological pansy crap about how it's totally cool that you can't back up your stupid shit because it's all 'just opinions derp'. You just don't want to get into it with dipshits. That's completely fine and totally cool.

It's not really a matter of the issue itself when it comes to those things, but rather whether the stance being argued for or against is grounded with reason...or something like that.

More importantly, you actually know a dude who thinks chicks shouldn't be all manly because it makes him feel unmanly? Like chicks should stay at home and vacuum because otherwise they might go out and kick his pansy ass? That guy should worry more about upping his manliness instead of being scared of babes. I wish chicks would go out and do more awesome shit like manly grappling and shit. It would make jujitsu way less gay.
I can see that, then. I just wasn't sure when "it's my opinion" is acceptable. I'm more than willing to enforce what I believe, and if I'm wrong, or "less right" than someone else, then I will concede, and other people should do the same. I believe plenty of things just because I want to [like how Sarah Shahi is the hottest bitch ever], but I also won't say I'm right about believing it, or force someone to say that I'm right. That's retarded.

Also, I'm getting irritated with the increasingly passive-aggressive form of "agreeing." Like...as and example: I tried my whole ass off to crush this guys soul with my words, because he tried to tell me gay marriage was okay, but we should call it something else. I was like, holy oh my fuck that is not fucking okay on more levels than this one. He wouldn't concede, because he just didn't get it and refused to see the correlation, and when he was losing he tried to pull the "opinion" card.
^All those people need to knock their shit off, too. That's basically saying "I'll humour your idea, but not really."

And I don't think he'd go as far as to say women should stay home and cook because if they weren't per-occupied with woman things, they'd be busy pegging him, but he said there are things that a woman should never do for a man, because poor man feels might get hurt--ordering food being the exact thing that incited the argument. His stance was that a woman could be subjected to the social dominance of a man, but the reverse could not happen, because that'd be wrong, and me laughing about it made me an insensitive bitch. I laughed in his goddamn face.
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Last edited by Vanity; 10-22-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:19 AM   #12
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

@White text-Yep, everyone in the topic is on the same page, it seems. Circle-jerk, fuck yeah.

@Red text-That guy should not be walking around with an intact face.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:40 AM   #13
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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...a "female" that lives in a country where politicians are still trying to argue that the Fair Pay act is irrelevant and unnecessary...
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:59 AM   #14
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

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I'd like to hear your thoughts on this article.
Ah, I wasn't clear.

I don't believe that women are over-all discriminated against. That'd be absurd, especially since sometimes they get paid more. The article is addressing something a little different, as I am saying that cases of gender discrimination is a thing [for men, too], and that act shouldn't be frowned on simply because it doesn't have an over-all application. All the act does is attempt to remove the 180 day statute of limitations.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:01 AM   #15
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Re: No, you are not entitled to your opinion

It looks like that's just criticizing some stupid 'holiday' and the statistic being used to justify it. And it is a stupid gimmick holiday thinger, I'll admit. But the argument there doesn't imply that discrimination based on gender isn't an issue that should be considered irrelevant or anything by our (shitty) politicians either.

Based on my super quick wiki research, the fair pay act looks like it's about the statue of limitations regarding actual pay discrimination. I think we'd all agree that a law that benefits people that are actually being unjustly discriminated against isn't a bad thing that should be opposed.
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