Vengeance

Which I just proved to be false dumbass.

Because there isn't an exact timeline on when Itachi & obito met. However there is enough information to clearly show that they met sometime BEFORE Sushui died based on the information we do have. It could have been weeks, months, or even a year before which was the reason for saying there isn't a definitive timeline.

In short you don't know WTF you're talking about. Have a nice day good sir.

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Screenshot from Shingeki no Kyojin.

Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

minato uchiha

You proved nothing but you're too stupid yo realise that. Fuck off, Vengeance my arse.

Vengeance

Here you go hope that helps with that little problem of yours.

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Screenshot from Shingeki no Kyojin.

Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

minato uchiha

Loool that was genuienly funny. I'm gonna thank you for that.

Shame the rest of your posts were so shit.

Wolverine

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Itachi massacre the clan the day Shisui's body was found? Wouldn't that most likely be the very next day he died? Or two at max?

Itachi would obviously have had to find Obito before Shisui's death because he couldn't have factored in his presence or absence to carry out the massacre, a mere day or two before the event itself.

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minato uchiha

Here's the thing though. It is unclear whether Shisui knew that Itachi had being ordered to massacre the clan or not. Personally, I read Itachi's memories(what he showed Sasuke) chronologically and in doing so, I don't think Shisui knew of the massacre. Shisui gave his eye to Itachi, then Itachi went to the meeting with Danzou and the Elders, then he encountered Tobi.

Furthermore, Itachi and Tobi's meeting was so brief and SPECIFIC that imo, it had to have happened after Danzou had given the massacre orders. Itachi tells Tobi that he would let him get revenge on the Uchiha in exchange for sparring Sasuke and Konoha. It strikes me that, that specific detail is the key here because up until then, Shisui and Itachi were working behind the scenes to SAVE their clan, not massacre them.

Numinous

No, there are plenty of available sites that point out the existence of Banbutsu Souzou as the source of the Bijuu, so it's not like it's some obscure reference, people simply have to double-check the data available instead of relying on the scanlations only.

It doesn't. I was pointing out that deeming Izanagi as the source of the Bijuu and saying it's canon is wrong.

Sorry, but you don't really get why 376 is pivotal to your own argument? The only way Tobi being the harbinger of disaster linked to a prophecy was if his description fitted the Great Frog Sage's prophecy in 376. Naruto quoting what his father said isn't a prophecy, it's really quoting. Unfortunately, I can't find the damn chapter in the original Japanese to sort things out.

Oh, and as a curiosity, the term "harbinger of disaster" in 503 is really Binktopia taking liberties with the original Japanese. Minato simply says "That man will surely bring disaster", as Naruto says in 544.

Theories/guesses are based on facts and the more facts you back up your claim, the stronger the theory is. Making up factoids a stronger guess does not make.

And INB4 "but it's my opinion!" or something like that, you have the right to express your opinion, but you have the duty to properly back it up since opinions can be wrong.

No. Along with Tobi saying Danzou's version was incomplete and never saying why or why his version was somehow more complete, there are no properties different between the two versions (except the duration, but it was explained why Danzou's version was longer and it doesn't really change anything in Izanagi's mechanism). And to be honest, Izanagi was already dumped by the plot by Izanami, I don't get what's its relevance in arguments anymore.

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minato uchiha

@Num: 376: this is my point. The prophecy the Elder Toad told Jiraiya made NO mention of a harbinger of disaster or a man bringing calamity, correct? The child of destiny was suppose to do one or the other, destroy or save the world. However, by the time Minato performs the RDS, the prophecy now includes a man/harbinger who the child of prophecy has to defeat. Naruto repeats the same thing. Do you get the difference because there is one?

Its either Jiraiya told Minato more to the prophecy than what was shown to us readers, or its a plothole from Kishi.

Izanagi: Izanagi as explained by Itachi, was used by Uchiha's to make sure they completed certain missions etc. It was a kinjutsu and clearly, it HAD to have being deemed one(and used) before truce was made with the Senju and the formation of Konoha. So does it make sense that the Uchiha's would NEED the dna of their most hated enemies(and really its just Hashirama) to perform a kinjutsu when its counterpart doesn't require Senju dna?

Furthermore, as your scan said, Izanagi is an application of Banzou.. but obviously the Izanagi that Danzou and Tobi used, created nothing but a genjutsu to allow them to escape death. This is why I believe Izanagi has different versions or applications, depending on whether its being performed with a rinnegan, sharingan or sharingan and senju(Hashi) dna.

Hashi's dna is obviously the amber nectar of the Narutoverse, and it helps prolong or shorten the side effects of virtually any jutsu. Your right, it has no relevance to the plot and I never claimed it did. Was just trying to explain or claim that there are different versions of it.

As for the Madara Nagato prophecy, the ONLY 'proof' I had to base it on was that it made no sense why Madara would randomly gives his precious eyes to an Uzamaki, who are closely affiliated to the hated Senju Clan. Surely Madara must have had a reason to do so, hence why I speculated that it could be a prophecy. I understand your objections to this, but I just wanted to put it out there and as always with you Num, I respect and appreciate your opinion. If only others could criticise and condemn my posts in the same manner, I wouldn't have to flame so much. Lol

Konnaha_yellow_flash

Sites, who cares what sites say... I can create sites and say I created the damn bijuu with KYF souzou lol... Doesn't make it true...

It was explained so easily that banbutsu souzou was something that Izanagi came from as it's practical application... and the power that created the bijuu, Yin and yang chakra, is the exact same thing explained as Izanagi's ability... Bringing Imagination (power of YIN) To life (power pf Yang)

the use of spiritual and mental energy of IMAGINATION which is the basis of YIN chakra... to give FORM and SHAPE from NOTHINGNESS... and Physical and life energy are the basis for YANG chakra that GIVES LIFE to the SHAPE and FORM (created through imagination)
Manga points it out so easily... put two and two together...


No it isn't... IZANAGI is said by the manga itself as the jutsu that created the bijuu from the juubi's YIN/YANG chakra... You and so many others just believed that the random "banbutsu souzou" was what created the bijuu because Izanagi is already known as a kinjutsu of the uchiha...

However, the manga explained that there is actually two different Izanagi's...

First: The Uchiha's kinjutsu Izanagi... By using the power of the uchiha's YIN chakra power of the SG... one can create and illusion from reality for just a breif moment allowing one to cheat death and avoid the consequences of one's actions which is why Izanami was created... in order to punish those to abuse this jutsu...
The power of the uchiha is all that is required to use this technique... the power of the senju can also be used, but only to extend the time one can make reality an illusion...
Explained here...
[SPOILER="[/SPOILER]

Second: The Original Izanagi, the Izanagi of the sage of six paths himself... By using the power of the uchiha by applying YIN chakra to create shape and form from nothingness from the imagination... and using the power of the Senju by applying the power of the YANG chakra to bring the shape and form of the imagination to life...
One can bring Imagination to life, turning imagination into reality... That is the power of the sage's Izanagi...

That is two separate Izanagi's explained by the manga...
one requires only the power of the uchiha and can turn reality into an illusion for a moment... one can use the power of the senju to increase the duration of the illusion, but is not required for use of this izanagi the uchiha have been using for a long time apparently...
The other requires the power of the uchiha's YIN and senju's YANG chakra to create a form and shape from Imagination and bring it to life... The power to turn imagination into reality...

Two completely different Izanagi's... while banbutsu souzou is still just some impractical, inapplicable version of the sage's Izanagi, By Izanagi's own description as banbutsu souzou's practical application... which is why it can "create all things" simply by imagining something, then making that imagined thing real...



[QUOTE][QUOTE]No. Along with Tobi saying Danzou's version was incomplete [COLOR="Red"]and never saying why or why his version was somehow more complete,[/COLOR] there are no properties different between the two versions (except the duration, but it was explained why Danzou's version was longer and it doesn't really change anything in Izanagi's mechanism). And to be honest, Izanagi was already dumped by the plot by Izanami, I don't get what's its relevance in arguments anymore.[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about??? The manga clearly says danzou's use of Izanagi was incomplete because he could not control hashirama's power....

You cannot argue it... the manga explained everything just fine... Some are just so stubborn to still state that the random banbutsu souzou is what created the bijuu despite the manga and every accurate translation saying that it is nothing but an impractical, inapplicable version of Izanagi... since Izanagi was explained as it's Practical application because what else could banbutsu souzou be if it truly is that...
And with the sage's Izanagi being able to bring Imagination to life... turning imagination into reality... Izanagi is capable of creating anything... and all things... including the bijuu... with the use of yin/yang chakra which is what Izanagi's said to use... Imagination, the basis of YIN.. and "bringing to life" is what YANG chakra actually does...

Just admit it...

The sage's Original Izanagi, Banbutsu Souzou's practical application, is the jutsu that created the bijuu and many other things through the use of the uchiha/YIN and senju/YANG power, as the manga explained...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

minato uchiha

@Kyf: not matter how many times you explain it, using canon quotes/scans, they just wont accept it. Izanagi with the rinnegan, according to Tobi, created the bijuu's and the sharingan's version, allows one to escape from fatal injuries etc. Lol, why they won't accept this is beyond me but its kinda of amusing, don't you think?

Gamabunta

If you are the one who doesn't acknowledge the fact that this manga is originally written in japanese and that is obviously accurate while the translated version can be poorly and hastily done then you are just a silly kyf's cheerleader.

And one more thing, not everything is a lie especially when it came to explaination of a jutsu. Tobi explaination to konan is the author way to relate to the reader and its not the tobi trying to lie (beside she is dead) lol. The only problem with one and only Izanagi is that its been retcon later on by itachi.

minato uchiha

Shut up you fucking idiot. We dont read the Japanese original do we? The translations we get is what we are quoting from and even in the original, it says Izanagi is an APPLICATION of Banzou.

Now I'm done talking to a moron such as you, who typicaly, has nothing else to say but that TIRED old line of "your a kyf cheerleader". At least Kyf is interesting, you, you might as well be annoymous on this fucking forum.

Gamabunta

Naruto 606 just confirmed it, uchiha and senju = rinnegan.
MU you can cry and carry on butthurt reply all day long.

Numinous

Sorry for the honesty, but you're acting like a KYF cheerleader, MU, since you're falling in the exact same dumb mistakes he fell before and applauding his delusions.

You two really can't think for a second and come to the conclusion that Izanagi always acts the same way when shown (Obito and Danzou) and that way clearly can't create new entities (as explained by Itachi in Izanami exposition), thus it being IMPOSSIBLE for Izanagi to create the Bijuu?

You two really can't think for a second and come to the conclusion that a fucking jutsu called "Creation of All Things" like Banbutsu Souzou is probably what created the Bijuu and not a jutsu that simply opens an alternate path of being?

You two really can't think for a second and come to the conclusion that you don't really see what "application" means in its proper context? This isn't application as in "practical use", but rather "derived use based on one or more tenets"? Again I refer to the circumcision and Jewish Faith analogy because it's the same fucking thing that is happening here. And how the fuck you guys don't see the oxymoron that is one jutsu being the practical use of another if they don't share the same properties?

You can throw panels and circle out phrases all you want, but as long as you prove to others you can't read properly, they'll be of null use.

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Konnaha_yellow_flash

WHat itachi explained was the uchiha's Izanagi you deluded fool... He even says so... Izanami is a jutsu created to punish the uchiha who use the kinjutsu IZANAGI... having nothing to do with the sage's Izanagi that is able to bring imagination (genjutsu) to life... thus the jutsu madara is attempting to control the world with... and was able to create the bijuu...

This last chapter said that there is an uchiha's kinjutsu and sage's jutsu along wiht other yin/yang jutsu... that is even more confirmation we are correct... drop it...

You are so stupid right now I just cannot hep myself, I pray you are trolling me right now...
Creation of all things is what became the sage's Izanagi as it's practical application... as in a useful, capable technique as opposed to w/e it was before it was Izanagi... Banbutsu souzou is nothing but a impractical, inapplicable thing that became Izanagi... by it's own description...

I even posted the manga links explaining the two completely different Izanagi's yet you still try to argue there is one lol.. W/e, keep deluding yourself...

Do you even know what practical and application means... NO!!! Otherwise you would understand what banbutsu souzou is described as being in the context of ninjutsu techniques...

You can be useful, capable in combat, practice ect... banbutsu souzou applies to ninjutsu, not Jewish customs so quit trying to delude yourself...
In the ninjutsu world... a technique that is impractical and inapplicable is not a technique at all... it is an unfinished technique if it has no use of value for training or combat thus banbutsu souzou was made into Izanagi so it could be practical and applicable...

And as long as you play the dumbest member on the forum... you just prove you have to delude yourself to try and convince yourself you are not a total dunce plagued with ego defense mechanisms...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA