minato uchiha

Num you should know better. This is a retarded post that I never expected someone like you to write. Let me ask you a question. Do you read the original Japanese of every chapter that comes out? And if you do, do you think everyone fucking does? Until you posted that Banzou w/e the other day, I never heard of it and was simply going by what the scanslation I read, tell me.

Now for some unknown reason, you seem to think that makes me a simpleton or a cheer leader of Kyf for the offence of quoting what I read. Are you that short sighted that you cannot understand for a minute why me and Kyf quote the definition of Izanagi that we have in Mangastream, Mangapanda and the like? I have my own mind mate, unlike a lot of your groupies who cannot wait to thank you every time you post something.

Now I respect your intelligence and writing abilities a lot and that won't change even if we end up flaming each other. However, I think in this instance, you're being very silly and naive. Your OWN scan says Izanagi is an application of Banzou, and in the fucking manga, the Izanagi we are shown, is a self induced genjutsu, which is obviously NOT the same as the scan you provided. So if me and Kyf point this out and still hold on to our beliefs that Izanagi has different versions, why has that got you so irate?

Grow up, accept that people will always have their opinions irrespective of what you and others think. If you can't get through to our dense and dumb skulls, simply ignore it and move on. I do that all the time when I can't get through to some people. As frustrating as it is, its life so chill the fuck down.

@Gam. Lool you are so unimportant its no longer funny. Say something interesting like my MAN KYF and perhaps you'll get the attention you seek so badly. Dickhead

Numinous

If anyone is writing a retarded post, it sure ain't me, because I'm not foolish enough to berate people for actually doing further research and know what the fuck they're talking about.

No, I do not check every single word of the original Japanese because it's very time-consuming and I can only find chapters after 475, but if a particular speech is being used as a cornerstone of an argument, at least I check it out in the original to be sure it's actually there.

That's why I called you a frigging cheerleader for KYF, because you're copying his exact MO of not comprehending what's written and chastise others for knowing more than you.

So what if they thank me? That's a sign they agree with me, not that they're trying to belong to a clique or something. But if you're so offended by that fact, ask them for their own opinions on the matter.

Think for a fucking second. Where did Izanagi act different in its mechanism between the two users it had (Obito and Danzou)? The only thing that changes is duration, and that was already explained why it happens.

Why think that RS had a different version of Izanagi if it wasn't even said RS had Izanagi to begin with? Of course he could have and probably had, but the manga used the RS as how Izanagi came to be, not how the RS used Izanagi. It talked about it's Yin-Yang properties that had in common with its parental jutsu, Banbutsu Souzou.

The only way I can think of mistaking Izanagi has somehow different in RS is the "turn imagination into reality, that's Izanagi", but for fuck's sake, guys, that's purple prosing. It's the same as Amaterasu burning as hot as the sun or Susanoo summoning a deity in the databooks, they're just words to be there and stay pretty, because they do NOT correspond to how the jutsu actually work. You can't just take every single word as golden canon, you need to read and filter what actually makes sense and what actually contradicts what the manga has shown.

That's where I think you guys are flunking in this matter, you can't discern that Izanagi is used as a framing device when the RS is alluded and what's being said is actually what originated Izanagi, you just need to improve your reading comprehension and you'll see it's obvious as fuck.

Seriously? The "I'm entitled to my opinion" shit defense? It's like ACt was already expecting that to be used recently, thank Cthulhu for his smarts. I won't respect an opinion if that opinion is wrong, simple as that.

• Doesn't want to be labeled as KYF's cheerleader.
• Calls KYF "my MAN".
• Paradox complete.

__________________

Vengeance

My honey boo boo KY knows how to put the Jelly on right as he slides between minato's thighs (no homo). Fucking hilarious seriously though get off it for a little bit & let his cock breath. White shit's exposed all over yo face!

__________________

Screenshot from Shingeki no Kyojin.

Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

I hope to god you are trolling because you are sounding crazier then a shit house Rat at this point Numious....

What you are talking about is wrong, accept it! There are two separate versions of Izanagi... even the manga mentioned them this chapter... The uchiha's kinjutsu and the inyoton jutsu...

Uchiha's kinjutsu which only requires the power of YIN/SG is obviously what danzou used...
then there is the sage's Izanagi that requires the power of YIN/Uchiha and YANG/Senju, which brings imagination to life... turning imagination into reality... NOT TURNING REALITY INTO AN ILLUSION WHICH IS WHAT THE UCHIHA'S VERSION DOES...

Sure you do not even recognize the actual translation of chapter 510... then when you do you go and take the context of it way, way out...

WHat you know is jack!!! The manga speaks for itself and I am not going to argue the obvious with you anymore... It is no longer about what I say, only the manga...

and it says...

Uchiha kinjutsu explained...


Obviously explains an Izanagi that turns reality into an illusion for a brief moment as the uchiha's Izanagi... thus power of YIN which is all the uchiha use...

Sage's Izanagi... explains it's difference from the uchiha's...



And even this last chapter explained what the manga already did as I posted here^^^^... there is the uchiha's kinjutsu (power of the Uchiha/YIN) and the inyoton jutsu (power of the Uchiha/YIN and senju/YANG)
The rikudou jutsu is the same technique nagato used with dead bodies and obito used with the jinks... the black rods which are madara's will gave it away...




The inyoton Izanagi of the sage's has never been used, only explained by tobi... what danzou and tobito used was the uchiha's Izanagi... But tobito explains where Izanagi came from and what it can really do... You just will not accept this fact...

You still are not getting it... banbutsu souzou was never said to create the bijuu only become Izanagi because it was obviously impractical and inapplicable...
Tobito explained the difference... and how both work... they are so completely different that you saying all this makes me think you have lost your mind and you are willing to delude yourself to no end...

and yes, the manga explained that the RS used Izanagi t create many things including the bijuu... get over it...

That is pure BS!!! The explanation of "turning imagination into reality, that is Izanagi" is tobito explained what it can really do, as the sage did before... Imagination is the application of YIN element and making something come to life, become reality... that is what the YANG element does...
So the explanation is no purple posing, it is saying exactly what was explained on the same page... Use of YIN to apply imagination to create shape and form and application of YANG to bring w/e imagined to life... it is simple...

You are so off it is ridiculous!!! Framing device.. you are in denial buddy... Banbutsu souzou was explained to do nothing at all other then become Izanagi... Nothing.... SHow me where it says banbutsu souzou is explained as the jutsu that created the bijuu and is inyoton...

Because from what I can tell...

:Obito used uchiha Izanagi to survive konans attack and because they were allies, he told he a little about his technique and history...

: He explained that Izanagi was Originally the practical application of "creation of all things"... That senju and uchiha used to be one... and the sage who was both clans and bloodlines in one, used his power to create many things...

: By applying imagination and spiritual energy, the basis of YIN was created that creates shape and form from nothingness...
and by applying life energy and physical energy, the basis for YNAG was created that can brethe life into the imagined form and shape... making it real...

: The bijuu are a creation of the sage through the use of it's YIN/YANG chakra...
The power to bring imagination to life... to turn imagination into reality... that is IZANAGI...!!!

IZANAGI is what was explained from beginning to end numious!!! Not banbutsu souzou... it is only REFERENCED as merely what became IZANAGI... nothing else... SO cealry it is your reading comp that is shit and needs work...
I mean what good is speaking five languages if you cannot even comprehend the easiest...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

minato uchiha

1. You're getting sillier by the post. When did I berate you for doing further research? I even said thank you but said however, I still think your research actually proves what me and Kyf are saying. Now why you can't comprehend that, is starting to concern me. Are you ok?

2. Cool, good for you and us for sharing that info. Like I said, I never heard of this Banzou... hence why I only relied on the medium I read Naruto in.

3. Grow up. Because I agree with your nemesis, in your deluded state of mind, you think I'm copying his MO. You lot clown Kyf at every given opportunity and by extension, you assume anyone who agrees with him, is also a 'dunce'. How about the idiots like Vengeance who agree with you? Are they copying your MO as well? This aint the only forum I'm on. I'm on Saiyan Island, Mangafox and One Manga, and I've posted my theories on opinions on the rinnegan and Izanagi, long before this lil debate. So while its convenient for you to label me a Kyf cheerleader because I agree with him, the fact remains, I formed these opinions myself a long time ago.

4. You're such a hypocrite. They agree with you because they share the same MO as you, according to your logic. Correct? No, you of course see it different. Those that thank you constantly are idiotic non entities who wanna cyber bully Kyf and his 'associates'. Lol, but you guys aint having it easy with me are you?

5. You think for a second. Did I say the Izanagi that Obito and Danzou used were vastly different? That's right, NO. I said, and maybe I should write it in capitals so you can understand, THE IZANAGI THE SAGE USED WAS DIFFERENT, JUST LIKE TOBI SAID. It was the original Izanagi, that is our whole argument

6. Like I said, I based this on what the Manga fucking said. The manga, said the Sage used Izanagi to create for fuck sakes. Are you gonna claim it never said that? I appreciate you finding the original translation, which still mentioned Izanagi(btw) but at the time, I was quoting directly from the manga.

7. Well that's your opinion isn't it? I never took everything the manga says literally, but if it goes out of its way to EXPLAIN the differences between the Izanagi the Sage used and the one Danzou and Tobi used, then that's what I'm gonna go with. Shit, ask yourself why the best translation we have so far, Mangastream, still say the Sage used the original Izanagi? Lol, you should write to them and berate them for this!

8. I think an intelligent guy like you(no sacarism intended) should know better and understand what the fuck your talking about. Your own fucking scan says Izanagi is an application of Banzou, yet you omit the Izanagi part in that sentence and conclude, the only Izanagi in the manga, is the kinjutsu of the Uchiha's.

9. Who cares if you respect my opinion. Do I seem like the type that cares what you and others think about me? Respect whatever you like, its called freedom mate. For example, I think you're intelligent and love the way you write. You don't have to care or respect that. You can and are calling me an idiot and that's cool because you are entitled to that opinion. Get it? Its not hard Num. I couldn't give to shits if you respect my opinion, regardless of what I think of you.

10. Lool first, you obviously chose to ignore the sarcasm in that statement. Secondly, I do lile Kyf, and you ironically. There is no paradox here. When Kyf talks shit, I point it out. When you talk shit, like you're doing now, I point it out. You call it a paradox, I call it consistency and intelligent reasoning. Try it sometimes. Next time Vengeance or your other groupies say something stupid, lets see if you'll have the conviction to point it out to them. Lol, somehow, I doubt you will.

@Vengeance: I destroyed you the last time we debated. Sure you wanna tango with me again? Come come now, we both know your my boy, my subordinate who wants to rebel. A prick like you should keep quiet and abuse weaklings lile Gamabunta. I read your posts and you're so cocky and dismissive of others, like your some don or something. Lol, YOU of all people, to me you're like the piece of thread that tears away from the seams of a rag cloth. You, I can squash ANY DAY in a debate/flaming. It aint even hard bro, you aint on my level. Please respond and bring it, I'm like Spain to you lil boy, and you, you're my Serbia Montenegro. Bitch....

Numinous

Well, excuse my French, but what the flying fuck you think this is?

Unless you can't read what you write, you were using an accusatory tone to the fact I actually checked the original Japanese. So stop the backpedaling and assume what you did.

Funny that the phrase that begins a whole paragraph of you trying to deny your similarities with KYF stabs you in the back by making you sound exactly like him, only with better grammar. KYF my nemesis? I'm delusional? Oh boy, you're like KYF, clueless about what you're talking about.

We've been over this before and I can't believe you haven't learn a thing from that discussion. It's KYF's stupidity and stubbornness that are rightfully criticized, not KYF as a person since we don't even know who the fuck he is in the first place. And everybody is indeed a dunce for agreeing with KYF if KYF is also being a dunce. Simple as that.

Wut. No, seriously, what? You clearly haven't paid enough attention to the forum, Vengeance and I disagree quite a lot BUT Vengeance isn't an idiot, because he actually uses clever arguments that sometimes I happen to disagree on, unlike you or KYF who string fallacies after fallacies.

You tell me. I already pointed out how your MO is very similar to KYF's, you should be able to do the same.

Well, I stand corrected, you're not a KYF cheerleader, you just happen to be as dumb in certain aspects as he is. I don't really think that's a better label, to be honest.

I'm as much of an hypocrite as you are an open-minded individual. That was sarcasm, in the case you didn't get it. It was already told to you many times that nobody is cyber-bullying KYF or anybody who agrees with him, people simply are criticizing stupidity. And, trust me, the closest person to employ actual cyber-bullying was KYF in the first place, so it's idiotic of you to make such remarks.

That arguments assumes Obito said the RS had Izanagi and used it. The thing is, the manga does not state that, the mistranslation does. I'll even quote the page with all the scanlation bits except the mistranslation, replacing it with the proper translation.

Based on this excerpt and this excerpt alone, where does it say Izanagi was used by the RS and that it created the Bijuu? Easy for anyone with reading comprehension, nowhere. It was said that Yin-Yang manipulation was what created the Bijuu and that Izanagi was derived from Banbutsu Souzou, which means "Creation of All Things", so the logical deduction is that the jutsu called "Creation of All Things" actually created the Bijuu, NOT a self-cast genjutsu that was derived from it.

Sorry, only the mistranslation said what you claim the manga did. The original ONLY said that Izanagi is derived from RS' Banbutsu Souzou, nothing less, nothing more. If you still read in the original that Izanagi was used by the RS to create, you're reading what's not there.

Again, you're assuming Obito actually said RS used Izanagi and it was different. He didn't, he only explained where it comes from in that controversial page.

Also, you're assuming I'm the first person to notice this mistranslation AND that mangastream changes their translations after they're released. Both are WRONG. Many forums and even Narutopedia have explained the goof with Banbutsu Souzou and there's a very famous mistranslation in the same exact chapter ("third of six paths" instead of "third coming of Rikudou Sennin") and people actually went to mangastream notifying of that mistake in the very day the scanlation was released and, well, I think this page is evidence enough of what happened to that particular plea.

Do your homework before putting your foot in your mouth.

I'm not omitting anything, I'm only not adding stuff to what the manga says. Considering the original Japanese and disregarding the mistranslation, there's no syllogism or logic line of thought that makes me think that RS' Izanagi (IF he used it in the first place) was different than the Uchiha kinjutsu, only that its parental jutsu, Banbutsu Souzou, was different from Izanagi. It takes a fallacious leap of thought to say otherwise.

Also, I think you're still under the assumption that application means "practical use". Look at the damn context for once and tell me:

1. Did you ever saw or heard of any jutsu that was impracticable and/or unusable by itself? The closest we saw were jutsu that can't be practiced often (FRS pre-SM, Kamui for Kakashi, etc), jutsu that weren't complete (Chidori pre-Obito's death) and jutsu that can't be used if not all requirements aren't met (Kirin without thunder clouds, ET'ing people with sealed souls). NONE of this is synonymous with impracticable/unusable.
2. Why name a jutsu that is impracticable and/or unusable to begin with and then rename it for something else if Izanagi was the practical use of Banbutsu Souzou?

Doesn't it make much more sense if you think for a second and come to the conclusion that application does not mean "practical use" in this context, but rather "specific use of one or more tenets of something", which is true since Izanagi does use Yin-Yang tenets, just in a different way that Banbutsu Souzou does?

Occam's Razor, my friend, Occam's Razor.


And the point flew right above your head. Freedom of speech =/= being entitled to an opinion that is demonstrably wrong. Why tarnish your freedom to speak by saying stupid shit and hammering that it's right despite it being logical wrong?

This is so stupid I don't even know where to begin.

First, the more you deny your proximity with KYF, you contradict yourself by putting yourself closer to him. That's what the paradox is about.

Second, you like me ironically? Either you're insulting me saying that my arguments are so bad they're good (the irony!) or you like me despite our antagonistic rants. Hopefully is the latter, but if that's the case, don't say "like ironically" or else you'll sound like a brain-dead hipster.

Third, intelligent reasoning? You use arguments from ignorance, can't properly read text and its context and insist on using an already debunked mistranslation as basis of your argument. That's impossible with intelligent reasoning.

Fourth, I don't have groupies and Vengeance is probably one of the if not indeed the last person to be my groupie, specially after I entered OH. You have to be either ignorant or stupidly biased to even infer so.

Fifth, I do point out when people that normally agree with me are wrong and vice-versa. If you never noticed that, pay attention instead of blowing smoke out of your ass.

Sixth, stop assuming stuff. You already proved yourself incompetent at doing that.

__________________

Konnaha_yellow_flash

Both translations state it!!!

What about Izanagi was originally the practical application of "creation of all things".... That alone says that Izanagi is a useful, usable technique of creation itself...
Then by explanation, "the power to turn imagination (the power of YIN) into reality, bringing it to life (power of the YANG)" THAT IS IZANAGI!!!

It is so damn easy...

: the power of YIN/YANG is what created the bijuu...

: Izanagi is the power to bring Imagination (basis of YIN) to life (ability of YANG). thus obviously a YIN/YANG jutsu originally...

Put two and two together here...

Gee, IDK... Izanagi is the practical application of "creation of all things"... Can bring imagination to life... thus is a Yin/Yang jutsu... And Izanagi, the power of senju/yang and uchiha/Yin was said to of created many things... including the bijuu!!!!!!

So...

Izanagi is the power to bring imagination to life... as the practical appliation of "creation of all things"...

With the power of uchiha and senju... the sage CREATED MANY things... by applying IMAGINATION and spiritual energy, one create shape and form from nothingness... (casting genjutsu basically).
Then by applying life energy and physical energy, one can bring that imagined shape and form TO LIFE...

The bijuu were created from the yin/yang power as well...

So,

:the bijuu were created by Yin/yang power of the sage...
:Izanagi is the Sage's power to bring IMAGINATION to LIFE... which is what YIN/YANG jutsu does...
It makes the imagination real... Imagination is the power of YIN and bringing to life is what Yang power does...

So then what is the manga saying numious... Yes, Izanagi was originally a yin/yang jutsu (uchiha+senju's power) that created many things, including the bijuu... Unlike the uchiha's kinjutsu that only uses the power of YIN to make reality an illusion briefly... but can use YNAG to increase the time reality can be an illusion, but that is it...


The right trans never said it was derived from banbutsu souzou... YOU SAY THAT!!!

The manga says that Izanagi was originally the practical application of "creation of all things"...

In the context of ninjutsu/genjutsu techniques...

Practical: "Of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something." So if Izanagi was practical then banbutsu wasn't... thus banbutsu would have to be impractical if Izanagi is the practical version of it...

Impractical: "(of an object or course of action) Not adapted for use or action; not sensible or realistic: "impractical high heels".
Mean banbutsu couldn't do squat, much less create bijuu... It couldn't do anything if it is impractical...

Application: "the act of putting to a special use or purpose".
SO if Izanagi is an application of banbutsu souzou "creation of all things", in the context of a ninjutsu/genjutsu technique... It is creating all things including bijuu... Meanwhile banbutsu souzou must be inapplicable if it needs another technique to be it's application...

Inapplicable: " not capable of being applied or used"...
Meaning banbutsu zouzou couldn't do anything if it has no way to be applied or used... thus it could not of created the bijuu nor anything other then being a part of Izanagi...

SO that is it... in the context of ninjutsu/genjutsu techniques... Izanagi being the practical application of "creation of all things" means it is a useful, capable of being used and applied for the specific purpose of creating all things...

and that banbutsu souzou is just impractical and inapplicable if Izanagi is the version of it that is... meaning it cannot be used, is not useful and cannot be applied specifically... thus could not of created squat as I said before...

This is going by the manga itself and the proper translations!!! So it is as I and MU say...

obito explained he used the uchiha's fobidden jutsu Izanagi to survive konan's attack, then sai he would explain his technique to her since she was an ally...

SO he explained Izanagi was originally the practical application of the sage's creation of all things... The sage was once uchiha and senju in one person... and with boht clan and bloodlines in one, the sage used his power to create many things by applying Imagination and spiritual energy for the basis of YIN to create shape and form out of nothingness...
Then applying life energy and physical energy as the basis for YNAG to bring the shape and form to LIFE...
and the bijuu are a creation of the yin.yang jutsu as well...

Then to put it all together... He says... "a technique with the power to bring imagination to life, to turn imagination into reality... that is IZANAGI!!!"

making imagination real is the power of yin/yang jutsu... The basis of YIN is IMAGINATION (which creates shape and form from nothingness) and the ability of YANG is the power to BRING TO LIFE...
So tobito explains Izanagi as it originally was, a yin/yang jutsu aka power of the uchiha and senju, allowed him to create many things including the bijuu...


You are so wrong about everything it is said...

Rikudou sage is a religious man who creates ninjutsu and genjutsu thus uses those techniques... SO the context of using Izanagi and banbutsu souzou is in the context of using a ninjutsu/genjutsu technique...

And in that context, Izanagi as the practical application of banbutsu souzou means Izanagi is used as a useful, capable of being used/applied for a specific purpose which would have to be for creation of things, as banbutsu souzou's name says... So again, would mean banbutsu souzou by itself is impractical thus not useful, capable of being used... as well as inapplicable meaning it has not ability to be applied... thus cannot be used in any way as a ninjutsu/genjutsu technique while Izanagi is used as a ninjutsu/genjutsu technique version of banbutsu souzou...

and that is how it is, accept it... this is all repeating of what the manga is saying so you cannot complain about it being me...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

kael03

Even though I already know the answer, I have to ask this. Kyf, which is more likely: your interpretation that is accepted by at roughly one other person? Or the translation that is accepted by the general community to the point a page was made on the naruto wiki dedicated solely to the jutsu Banbutsu Sozu?

minato uchiha

1. I had to cut bits out because the forum wouldn't allow me to post it.

2. Lol, what a hypocrite and political you are with the truth. Lets remind ourselves CHRONOLOGICALLY what really happened. You posted that Banzou scan, exclaiming how tiresome it was that you have to bring it up again and that for fuck sakes we should know this already. My response was to THANK YOU for your research, even though ironically, it indirectly proves what I was saying.

Now you convieniently omitt that, and use my alleged tone in my LATER post to you, as the original. How silly and dishonesty of you. You remind me of kids that ask their parents for something, the parents says no in nice way at first. But when they badger them non stop, the parent finally snaps and the the child ONLY refers to that moment, forgetting the parent originally was calm and collected.

Num, you are that child and as your parent, I'm gonna tell you off, lol. I thanked you for your research and only when you went on and on about it arrogantly, I asked you do you think everyone reads the Japanese original.

3. Lol and still you call me Kyf. Why? Lol as shocking as it is to you and you're idiotic groupies, there are people who agree with Kyf. Not on everything but on some things I do. Now of course, that's unheard of for you but your ego just has to accept it. And he IS you're nemesis, since you are so obsessed with him.

4. But isn't that just your opinion Num? And who the fuck cares about that opinion except you and your leeches?
Then you claim that Kyf is a cyber bully, even though in this case, the bully stands alone on this forum. You are so deluded, arrogant and FRAGILE its almost comicial. You insult the guy at every turn, insult anyone who dares agree with him and then make yourself the victim of Kyf's bullying and demeaning natute.

Arrrh poor Num, so you are not the one who ridicules Kyf, its all him isn't it? How pathetic of you. At least the other idiot Vengeance doesn't pretend to be the victim or cry out for sympathy. You are the bully here, except you are way too weak to bully anyone other than Gamabunta.

5. Ignoring the drivel you posted, just wanna ask you a question if I may. What does the word DERIVE mean? You obviously know the answer so tell me, if Izanagi is derived from Banzou and the manga says the ORIGINAL Izanagi is derived from Banzou but that ANOTHER version of Izanagi does something else, what is the manga saying? Lol, and this SIMPLE thing is got you flapping all this time.

But this isn't the first time for you. You love pointing out Kishi's plotholes and inconsistencies, yet when one is pointed out to you that you didn't think of yourself, you refuse to accept it. The child of destiny is the classic example here that you blatantly can see is not consisent yet you argue that it is. Lol, that's something if Kyf did, you'll only be too eager to denounce and insult him.

6. Lol knew Occam's Razor would come in this debate at some point. Ok cool, lets go with it. Mangastream up till now have NOT corrected this 'mistake' even though according to you, in the past they have corrected mistakes made. The original Japanese says where Izanagi is derived from, and in that same original manga, Obito goes on to explain a version of Izanagi that him and Danzou use. So Occam ask's this. What does the word derive mean, and why did the original Japanese bother to distinguish the two if only one Izanagi exists?

Answer that my friend. And I said I liked you ironically but you seem to struggle with comprehension of late. Allow me to explain. You said I'm a Kyf cheerleader because I agree with him and have the same MO as him. Yet me and you disagree on almost every issue and I still go out of my way to say I like you and respect what you do. So how does that fit into your logic? How can I like someone who has called me everything from a liar to a dunce? That is the difference between me and you Num. I can criticse the post but still like the poster and vice versa.

You on the other hand, hate Kyf so much that you're outraged if anyone agrees with him or likes his ideas. Lol and even when I state time and time again that I formed these Izanagi version ideas myself, you still accuse me of copying Kyf's MO. Now that's so pathetic of you and I urge you to be reasonable and stop thinking like a simpleton when it comes to Kyf.

kael03

I just want to point something out. You either didn't read num's post completely or misread a part. He never said that Mangastream had corrected mistakes in the past and conveniently neglected this one. In fact, the opposite was said:

Not only did he say that they never corrected the mistake (using Mangapanda's link, which used Mangastream's translation crew), he pointed out another mistake in the translation they never fixed in that same chapter.

Um...learn to use Occam's Razor correctly, nubcakes. Your usage of the name is wrong for the argument.

Also, according to the dictionary the term "derive" means:
In this case, Izanagi is obtained from the jutsu "Creation of All Things". It is not the same thing. The only thing that the original japanese claimed was that Danzo was using an incomplete version of Izanagi, but never specified what the complete version was.

Banbutsu Souzou is NOT Izanagi. Izanagi is a self-cast genjutsu that blurs illusion with reality to allow the user to escape death for a period of time. It does not create physical entities from nothing.

minato uchiha

Listen dummy, try to make sense when you attempt to correct me. The fact that Mangastream never corrected this 'mistake', in the context I'm using it, proves my point. Namely, that if you rely on their translation, you will obviously be stating what I'm saying.

1. to receive or obtain from a source or origin (usually followed by from). 2. to trace from a source or origin. 3. to reach or obtain by reasoning; deduce; infer. 4. Chem. to produce or obtain (a substance) from another

From the dicitionary meaning of derive, if you had any sense like your hero Num you would conclude the following. According to the original Japanese, Izanagi comes from Banzou, and that's its origin and source. Now dummy, this is what you and Num are missing.

Going by what this translation and the meaning of derive is, the Sage's Izanagi is Banzou but Kishi has CALLED IT IZANAGI. Just lile how Amatersau is a Shinto god but in Kishi's manga, it is Ms jutsu, so to is Izanagi in this manga.

If only your idoitic child like mind can't understand that Kishi has coined the term Izanagi amd added Banzou properties to it, then this whole lil debate would be over. In Kishi's manga, Banzou is the Sage's Izanagi and the Uchiha kinjutsu Izanagi is radically differwnt from it.

How hard is that for you to understand? So when me and my man Kyf says, there are different versions of Izanagi in the MANGA, this is what we mean. For fuck sakes, are you lot that retarded that you don't get it?

Take the swatiska sign of the Nazi party. Originally it is a Hindu sign meaning honor and nobility. However, by the time of Hitler, it is and has forever become a sign of hatred. Get it. Its the SAME sign but to different people, it means completley different things. Like the cross is derived from the ankh and it means completley different things.

I thank Num for drawing attention to where Kishi got the idea of Izanagi from but I laugh at him for not understanding what we mean by the different versions of Izanagi. In the MANGA mate, in the bloody MANGA.

Now next time nubcakes(never heard of such a dumb term) come at me correctly and you'll be treated nicely, lol.

Numinous

Oh, the idiotic patronizing tone is through the roof!

Sorry, you can't have the cake and eat it. That is, you can't thank me for fetching the original Japanese and then berate me for actually checking the original Japanese. I wasn't being arrogant about reminding you of the fact the Japanese does not say what you desperately want it to say, I was being accurate.

And I'm not ignoring the fact you did thank for the translation previously, I simply alluded to your berating precisely because you changed sides pertaining the translations.

I'll only say one thing at points 3 and 4: it's funny your denial of acting like KYF while acting like KYF. Even the little pretense of understanding my psyche is a pastiche of him.

Sorry, where does the manga say there's an original Izanagi to begin with? Because it says there's an incomplete one? We don't even know why it was incomplete to begin with! And it's possible that the incomplete Izanagi is the standard, assuming there's another version (which isn't fully supported by canon).

Also, Kael already pointed out what derive means, so I won't repeat him

What plot hole/inconsistency are you babbling about? If it's what I think it is, grab a dictionary, you're using the wrong terms.

Kael already pointed out I said the contrary, I'll just add: thanks for proving my point of your lack of reading comprehension.

Again, you're assuming that the manga talked about two versions of Izanagi, when it talked about one and called it "incomplete" for some reason.

It's funny you yet again make an assumption, this time that I must dislike you for insulting your arguments even though you do the same. And yet again, your assumption is wrong.

I do not dislike you or anyone in the forum, so don't assume that, by not expressing my likings and whatnot somehow I hate people. I prefer to avoid cheap appeals to emotion because they are simply useless to the argument and you saying you like me is completely inconsequential when I'm objectively looking at the arguments.

What. Seriously, what? Can someone translate me this paragraph so it makes sense?

If I'm reading this correctly, this is the equivalent of basing an argument on a verse of the Bible that is demonstrably wrong and then say it isn't because the Bible is never altered. Wow, just wow.

I literally laughed at this whole tidbit. This could be the dumbest thing you ever said.

The most glaringly obvious thing is Banbutsu Souzou is NOT a real thing, so suggesting Kishi simply added its properties to the manga's Izanagi is nonsensical. Banbutsu Souzou is a concept created by Kishi and it was written within the manga, meaning it exists in the Narutoverse. Now what you and KYF are so adamantly refusing to think about is, if your hypothesis is true, why would Kishi place the name of Banbutsu Souzou just to rename it Izanagi a couple of panels later? Why having two names for the exact same jutsu if indeed Banbutsu Souzou=Izanagi?

It makes sense for Chidori and Raikiri to have different names since, even if one is derived from the other, they have some different properties and it makes sense for Kakashi's Kamui and Obito's Kamui to have the same name since, despite showing different properties, that results from the mastery of it or lack of such. Now, the latter situation could be applied for the Uchiha Kinjutsu Izanagi and the RS version of Izanagi if that was true, but why name the exact same jutsu in its full mastery both Izanagi and Banbutsu Souzou? If the full mastery of Izanagi was indeed equal to Banbutsu Souzou, why the fuck come up with the latter name in the first place?

It's really simple using Occam's Razor properly: Izanagi and Banbutsu Souzou are NOT the same, one is simply derived from the other.

__________________

jekyl_hyde

How is this thread still alive?

Konnaha_yellow_flash

Because most people are pawns... they will believe what others believe without question and narutowiki is pure fan made... Trying to prove your right because more people believe something else is not how it works... this isn't something that can be debated... the manga said what it said and you will just not accept it, that is all there is to it...

Manga says and I quote...

: Konan "you should be dead, how did you survive..."
: Tobito "Izanagi... the uchiha's kinjutsu that connects reality and illusion"
"I will tell you a little about my techniques and history since you were my ally"
: Tobito "Izanagi was originally the practical application of the sage's creation of all things" "the power of the senju and uchiha were once one... and the sage who was both bloodlines, both clans in one used his power to create many things".
"By applying IMAGINATION and spiritual energy which forms the basis for YIN, one can create shape and form from nothingess...
and by applying life energy and physical energy to form the basis for YANG, one can BRING TO LIFE that shape and form"
:Tobito "The bijuu are such a creation of the Yin/yang powers of the kuubi, used by the sage..."
"a technique with the power to BRING IMAGINATION TO LIFE.... That is IZANAGI!!!"

That is an obvious explanation by tobito that Izanagi was once something entirely different from that the uchiha use... and unlike the uchiha's kinjutsu that only requires their power of YIN/SG to use... The sage's Izanagi required the power of the Uchiha/YIN and senju/YANG... his power... the sage's power... and with that power, the sage could bring Imagination itself to life... making anything he thinks up real... "turning imagination into reality...
THAT IS IZANAGI..." is self explanatory....


Also... I already addressed this topic with narutowiki and they had no logical argument... all they had to say was "banuutsu souzou was said to of created the bijuu" which is so false it's borderline delusional... nowhere in the mnaga does it say banbutsu souzou did anything other then become the sage's Izanagi... nothing else!!!

The manga was talking about Izanagi the entire time... Naruto 510's: "shocking forbidden technique" is referring to Izanagi!!! Banutsu souzou is merely what became Izanagi.. nothing more... the manga states it, not that it did anything other then be what Izanagi came from... and Izanagi is the practical application (useful, able to use/ apply specifically) of banbutsu souzou... SO that says it all... a jutsu that is the practical application of "creation of all things" is something that can obviously create many things as it's said to of done, including the bijuu...

So Izanagi is what created many things including the bijuu... not banbutsu souzou!!! Izanagi is the technique tobito was referring to the entire time so all this BS arguing menas nothing compared to what the manga so obviously explains... see it yourself again... makes it harder to delude yourself when it is right there in front of you...

EDIT:

Here, this should be easier because I made it readable right to left like a manga so there is no rational error with interpretation...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

Konnaha_yellow_flash

Wanted to address this one point... and I will repeat myself until it sinks in...

Banbutsu souzou is merely the name of something the sage had, but was unable to used, useless/not able to be applied specifically for a purpose... thus the Sage created a whole new technique called "IZANAGI" so there could be a practical (useful, capable of being used) application (capable of being applied, applied for a specific purpose) version of the useless banbutsu souzou...

Because for some reason the sage's "creation of all things/banbutsu souzou" is not something that can be used/applied as a genjutsu/ninjutsu... The sage's creation of IZANAGI was to allow for a Practical application of w/e banbutsu souzou is... because it itself is not practical, or applicable as a genjutsu or ninjutsu...

Nowhere does it say banbutsu souzou and Izanagi are the same technique... Hell, Only Izanagi is a TECHNIQUE/JUTSU, as babutsu souzou's practical application (meaning it can be used, applied specifically for a purpose... which coould only be for nin/genjutsu)...
While banbutsu souzou is an unknown, impractical and inapplicable trick meaning it's technically not a technique at all because it lacks the qualities of a technique/jutsu which are Practicality and applicability... whether in training or combat...

This whole argument is snuffed out by the fact the manga says that IZANAGI is the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of the sage's "Banbutsu Souzou/Creation Of All Things" meaning it is a (useful, capable of being applied specifically) version of banbutsu souzou... thus banbutsu souzou is unable to be used in it's original form... Only as Izanagi/Yin and Yang technique can banbutsu souzou do anything... The manga explains this!!!

I mean the fact that there is obviously two separate version's of Izanagi means nothing at all to certain people for some reason...

The manga explains there is first..

1). Uchiha's Kinjutsu Izanagi: "With the power of the SG (Yin Element), the uchiha can connect reality and illusion... making reality into an illusion for a brief moment in time, but only by sacrificing one's eye...
Now the power of the senju (Yang element) can be used with this Izanagi, but it only increases the time that reality can remain an illusion, nothing more...

second...

2). The Sage's Izanagi: "Originally the Practical Application of the Six Paths's Creation of all things... Requiring the power of the Uchiha's SG (Yin element) and the Senju's powerful body (Yang element)... Which is the power of the sage himself (Uchiha+Senju=sage of six paths)...
One can bring Imagination to life, turning it into reality... by applying the imagination/spiritual energy, one can use the YIN element to create shape and form out of nothingness... (create a genjutsu basically)...
Then by applying Life energy and physical energy, one can use the YANG element to bring the IMAGINED shape and form to life... making it real...
This process with sage's Izanagi (Yin/Yang power's) was used in the creation of the bijuu from the juubi...
A Technique with the power to bring imagination to life, turning it into reality itself... That is IZANAGI..."


See, the very explanation of how the sage's Izanagi works, shows it is a onyoton jutsu/Yin and yang technique... Izanagi... being able to make anything one can imagine real, can only be achieved through yin/yang jutsu...

IMAGINATION is the basis for YIN that creates shape and form out of nothingness (use the imagination to create genjutsu)... and by applying the Yang element one can BRING the IMAGINED shape and form to LIFE...
Basically, turning imagination into reality, making anything one imagines, real... A.K.A. Use of Yin/Yang technique/Jutsu...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA