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Old 10-23-2012, 04:10 PM   #106
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Because most people are pawns... they will believe what others believe without question and narutowiki is pure fan made... Someone here doesn't know the difference between argument from popularity and consensus.

(...)

Also... I already addressed this topic with narutowiki and they had no logical argument... all they had to say was "banuutsu souzou was said to of created the bijuu" which is so false it's borderline delusional...
So everyone but you is wrong and everyone but you is delusional. That only happens when either you're a genius like Stephen Hawking who revolutionized astrophysics or you're an idiot on the level of creationists who can't really comprehend what's so fucking obvious.

Gee, I wonder which is it.

PS: Do you have a link to your discussion with narutowiki? Just to know both sides of that story.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:48 PM   #107
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

So wait, let me see if I follow this. You're claiming the sage had an ability to create all things, but couldn't use that ability?

....Seems legit.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:01 PM   #108
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

"Izanagi was originally the practical application of Banbutsu Souzou". Num, what is it that you get?
Banbutsu Souzou was the jutsu the Sage used to create many things, and what Obito is saying here, is that the practical aspect of it, the mechanics of it, is called Izanagi. Lol, and this has got you puzzled.

Now lets Occam for a minute here Num. The Sage and any technique he performs, is going to be on a different scale to all follows after him. He is the originator so when he does a jutsu like CT, its going to be on a different level to Nagato's CT. He is special, unique, the first jinchuriki who even after having all those bijuu's extracted from him, survived, reformed all that chakra into the bijuu's, giving speeches and shit.

That being the case, consider the following of what Banbutsu Souzou AND its application Izanagi was, when he used it.

1. He had the rinnegan and the ultimate body when he used BS and Izanagi.

2. The original version AND its application Izanagi, could do more than what Danzou and Tobi could do.

3. His use of Izanagi was different from Tobi and Danzou's. He used it to create many things and not just a genjutsu on ones self.

4. He suffered no side effects when he used BS and Izanagi, and he obviously didn't go blind did he?

This is what we mean when we say there are different versions of Izanagi. Shit man, this is what Tobi and that lil explanation to Konan was all about. The Izanagi he used to survive her attack, is derived from the original practical application(Izanagi) of a jutsu called BS. Except with the Sage, he used on it on an unprecedented and different scale.

And this aint your 'cool story bro' bs you guys use on Kyf. This is all that chapter and the theme in the manga is saying. Its like you've forgotten that Madara and Hashirama, Uchiha and Senju, powerful as they were, are just mere DILUTION of their ancestors true power.

So what would Occam say about Tobi's statement and explanation to Konan, with all things considered?

Lol, you laugh at Kyf but your stubbornness in this debate is on next levels. IZANAGI and BS ARE in the same sentence, lol along with the words ORIGINAL and APPLICATION yet you deny what they mean. Lmao no no noo, you insist it means something completely different. Yeah, think I'll borrow your slogan if I may please. Cool Story bro...
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:08 AM   #109
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

BS and izanagi are two different jutsu. BS can create THINGS frm your imagination and make them real. Izanagi can only be used on urself. You can trap yourself in a fantasy world that's real fr you like danzo said sme guy did. Or make you death a illusion. The second you CREATE something, your nt using izanagi, that's BS. The concepts are kinda the same as far as illusion into reality. But what you can do with the techs are completely diff. Neither tobi or madara can create a 11 tails bijuu with izanagi. You need the ability to use BS fr that. The sage didnt make bijuu with izanagi...he used BS. That's the diff IMO. Like a fire ball tech and Amaterasu are diff...yea there both fire techs but the scale and power are diff. Bad example but that's the gist... I think what u guys are saying is izanagi is a lite version of BS? I get that but..no. There just two diff things. A better example: sasuke and itachi both have tsukinami. Same tech but completely diff scales. Night and day. At the end of the day tho they're both tsukinami same name. If izanagi was just BS lite...it would still be called BS. They would just explain that the sage could use it on a completely different level, far beyond uchiha because of blah blah blah. That's nt how it went tho. Uchiha have izanagi, which comes frm BS but is completely different in application, power and ability. So it's nt the same tech at all

Last edited by Amuro; 10-24-2012 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:03 AM   #110
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Im not saying Izanagi is BS lite, I'm saying what the manga says, which is, Izanagi is the pratical application of BS. Lets use religion real quick to try and explain it. In the Bible, it says "in the beginning there was God and the Word was God and the Word was with God". Now ask any priest and they'll explain that shit as, God is God and Jesus is his Word, and when he speaks, his Word(Jesus) does his bidding and creates.

So in that example, the Word is the PRACTICAL application of God's imagination, similar to Izanagi being the practical application of BS. Get it? And what were saying is, that practical application the Sage used for his BS, differs from the same application the Uchiha's use. All they could do with their practical application was a self induced genjutsu to escape death. But the Sage, with his unique rinnegan and ultimate body, could do more with Izanagi, than his descendants.

That's what I'm saying, and what the manga and Tobi said, I think, lol.

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Old 10-24-2012, 05:15 AM   #111
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

I think you're confused in your analogy. Most priests will explain that the "word" of God is the bible, or the inspiration for the bible (depending on the level of insanity). Jesus was claimed to be God's son, not his "word".

What Amuro said is correct. Banbutsu Souzou is what created the Bijuu, not Izanagi. Izanagi is considered the "practical application" of Banbutsu Souzou because it turns one's imagination into reality (the Sage imagined the Juubi's chakra weakened and separated it into 9 parts, and imagined containers for the divided chakra to create the Bijuu). The difference is that while Banbutsu Souzou can create living creatures like the Bijuu, Izanagi cannot. It has never even been implied to have that capability, in any event that it has been used. It only blurs the line between reality and imagination for the caster and allows them to avoid death by turning their death into an illusion, or a figment of their own imagination. That is where Izanagi was derived from Banbutsu Souzou, using Yin to create a figment of the user's imagination (not dying) and Yang to "breathe life" into that figment (turning one's death into an illusion).
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:24 AM   #112
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

No mate, its you that's confused. I dont belong to any religion but I went to a Catholic School. Jesus to Christians and in the Bible, is the Son AND Word of God. Don't believe me, google it.

I am not saying Izanagi created the bijuu's, it took a lot more than that to create them. I'm saying, a PART of that creation, the practical side, was Izanagi but the Sage's use of it, was radicly different and more powerful than the Uchiha's Izanagi.

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Old 10-24-2012, 05:39 AM   #113
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
No mate, its you that's confused. I dont belong to any religion but I went to a Catholic School. Jesus to Christians and in the Bible, is the Son AND Word of God. Don't believe me, google it.
I'm an atheist and I discuss/argue this shit on a near daily basis. Jesus is the Son of God, and through him the Word of God is spoken. However, the Word of God, in its physical sense, is the Bible. Every christian will say that the Bible is the word of god. Jesus was the messenger for the word.

Quote:
I am not saying Izanagi created the bijuu's,
Actually, that's exactly what you've been saying since you started cheerleading for KYF. You've claimed that Izanagi has multiple versions based on Obito's statement that Danzo's version of Izanagi was incomplete (without telling us how), one of which created the Bijuu. Even though the manga clearly stated that Izanagi's concept of turning imagination into reality (avoiding death by turning oneself into an illusion for the death blow) is based on the Sage's ability to create living creatures like the Bijuu from his imagination.

Quote:
it took a lot more than that to create them. I'm saying, a PART of that creation, the practical side, was Izanagi but the Sage's use of it, was radicly different and more powerful than the Uchiha's Izanagi.
If it was "radically different" WHY BOTHER CALLING IT THE SAME THING???
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:23 AM   #114
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
I'm an atheist and I discuss/argue this shit on a near daily basis. Jesus is the Son of God, and through him the Word of God is spoken. However, the Word of God, in its physical sense, is the Bible. Every christian will say that the Bible is the word of god. Jesus was the messenger for the word.



Actually, that's exactly what you've been saying since you started cheerleading for KYF. You've claimed that Izanagi has multiple versions based on Obito's statement that Danzo's version of Izanagi was incomplete (without telling us how), one of which created the Bijuu. Even though the manga clearly stated that Izanagi's concept of turning imagination into reality (avoiding death by turning oneself into an illusion for the death blow) is based on the Sage's ability to create living creatures like the Bijuu from his imagination.



If it was "radically different" WHY BOTHER CALLING IT THE SAME THING???
1.You still don't get it. Jesus is the Word of God as in, when God speaks, his Word is his son Jesus. Obviously the Bible is the teachings and words of God through his prophets, but according to the same Bible, Jesus is called the Word of God. Lol, you're gonna argue this with me when a simple check on google will explain it.

2. Lol, your second paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. In there, you've just admitted that the concept of Izanagi is based on the Sage's BS, but its not the same as BS. Lol, isn't that what me and Kyf have being saying all along? Isn't that what the manga says?

Its like teaching algebra to a 5 year old. The Sage did not go blind when he used the practical application commonly known as Izanagi, so OBVIOUSLY its radically different from the same practical application that Danzou used.


How hard is that to grasp? The Sage did more with the practical application of BS than Tobi, so OBVIOUSLY its different depending on who and what dojutsu is used to perform the technique. Jeez, if you can't read, there's even pictures to illustrate. You know, rinnegan using Izanagi, and Sharingan using it and going blind afterwards.

Same application, different results.

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Old 10-24-2012, 08:28 AM   #115
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Ok lemme see if I understand what ur saying... are you saying somewhere in BS...izanagi is used? And that's (izanagi) the part of making illusion into reality? But since the sage has rinnigan and a ultimate body, he could actually CREATE things (using izanagi), and that's BS? Since the uchiha don't (have rinnigan and body) they could only use izanagi? Which is only used on yourself? :/ I guess. It's just odd to me.

Ill use your God example: To me that's like saying God created life...and since we can reproduce...we can create life too. So Reproduction is the practical application of life creation? Or science is the practical application of creation. If you see that to be like what your saying, I get it, I cn live with it I just don't agree 100%

The way I see it, the sage had BS. That's used to create things. All by itself...BS. The uchiha being descendants of the sage, were blessed with the ability to tap into a certain aspect of that tech (making illusion reality) which they call izanagi. Two different things tho. The sage didnt need izanagi to create the bijuu...just like god doesn't need reproduction to create life, he just made it...u see that?

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Old 10-24-2012, 09:06 AM   #116
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Ok lemme see if I understand what ur saying... are you saying somewhere in BS...izanagi is used? And that's (izanagi) the part of making illusion into reality? But since the sage has rinnigan and a ultimate body, he could actually CREATE things (using izanagi), and that's BS? Since the uchiha don't (have rinnigan and body) they could only use izanagi? Which is only used on yourself? :/ I guess. It's just odd to me.

Ill use your God example: To me that's like saying God created life...and since we can reproduce...we can create life too. So Reproduction is the practical application of life creation? Or science is the practical application of creation. If you see that to be like what your saying, I get it, I cn live with it I just don't agree 100%

The way I see it, the sage had BS. That's used to create things. All by itself...BS. The uchiha being descendants of the sage, were blessed with the ability to tap into a certain aspect of that tech (making illusion reality) which they call izanagi. Two different things tho. The sage didnt need izanagi to create the bijuu...just like god doesn't need reproduction to create life, he just made it...u see that?
No. Read what the manga says properly. Izanagi is a PART of what the Sage used to create all things. BS alone did NOT create all things WITHOUT the practical application known as Izanagi. That is what I'm saying and what the chapter says, that Izanagi's original function, was the practical application of BS.

Now the God example is not mine own definition of it. It's what the Bible says.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now according to them, God and his Word are the same but seperate entities, so to speak. God speaks and the words he speaks, performs what he has asked for. The word is the practical application of his imagination. For example, 'let there be light'. The BS in that sentence is the imagining the light bit. The Word/Application is what happens once he spoke those words and light was created.

So what Tobi say's is that the jutsu he just used, Izanagi, was originally the application for ANOTHER jutsu called BS. BS comprises of the Sage's imagination and the practical application of it.

All the Uchiha's can do is the application part but even that is different from what their ancestor could do. He suffered no drawbacks, unlike Tobi and Danzou whose sharingan went blind after Izanagi. The Sage had NO sharingan, he used his rinnegan to perform BS and Izanagi. So that being the case, it is obviously different from the self induced genjutsu that Tobi and Danzou did.

Lol, that's all I'm saying bro.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:36 PM   #117
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Maybe I can be of assistance.

Explaination 1:Performing

military orders are like justu. In the sense of having two parts.

A. Statement- saying what is coming.
B. execution- do what i just said.

"Forward, march!!"

BS is the ACTUAL JUTSU where Izanagi is the action.

Explanation 2: Use

Making a Pizza

Let's say I want a pizza. I can bake a pizza from scratch(certfied cook). I can put whatever I want on it and make it with no problem.

Now you want a pizza, you buy one an microwave it.

End results, mine is fresher and took experience skill. (BS)

Yours was quicker but needed no skill, only understanding.(Izanagi)

What im saying is pizza was the goal i used BS to create it from scratch and bake it you used IZANAGI to just cook it.

BS is the entire name of the jutsu, izanagi is part of it. Not all of it.

Explanation 3: Ability

BS = Mac book pro
Izanagi = ipad(new)

Accomplishes part of the goals but coupd NEVER stand up to the original, completed version.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:04 PM   #118
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

nah obito has limited MS and the reason he wanted shisui's sharingan is because shisui was his little brother and thats the only way he could've awakened MS
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:33 AM   #119
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho Uzimaki View Post
Maybe I can be of assistance.

Explaination 1:Performing

military orders are like justu. In the sense of having two parts.

A. Statement- saying what is coming.
B. execution- do what i just said.

"Forward, march!!"

BS is the ACTUAL JUTSU where Izanagi is the action.

Explanation 2: Use

Making a Pizza

Let's say I want a pizza. I can bake a pizza from scratch(certfied cook). I can put whatever I want on it and make it with no problem.

Now you want a pizza, you buy one an microwave it.

End results, mine is fresher and took experience skill. (BS)

Yours was quicker but needed no skill, only understanding.(Izanagi)

What im saying is pizza was the goal i used BS to create it from scratch and bake it you used IZANAGI to just cook it.

BS is the entire name of the jutsu, izanagi is part of it. Not all of it.

Explanation 3: Ability

BS = Mac book pro
Izanagi = ipad(new)

Accomplishes part of the goals but coupd NEVER stand up to the original, completed version.
Your analogy is good, but you made a mistake. BS was used to create your pizza but Izanagi was used to COOK IT. Its not a case of you just used BS to create the pizza from scratch and I used Izanagi to cook it, we BOTH used Izanagi in making the pizza.

Like the manga says, Izanagi is the practical side of BS, in other words, its a part of BS, not seperate from it. Furthermore, the pizza I created with Izanagi will be different and nowhere near the level of yours, that you created with BS and Izanagi. Since you're a trained chef and I can barely cook rice, you represent the Sage, and I'm Tobi and Danzou. Thus, my skill in making the pizza will pale in comparrisson to your own, even though we BOTH used Izanagi in our preparation.

Last edited by minato uchiha; 10-25-2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:26 AM   #120
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho Uzimaki View Post
Maybe I can be of assistance.

Explaination 1:Performing

military orders are like justu. In the sense of having two parts.

A. Statement- saying what is coming.
B. execution- do what i just said.

"Forward, march!!"

BS is the ACTUAL JUTSU where Izanagi is the action.

Explanation 2: Use

Making a Pizza

Let's say I want a pizza. I can bake a pizza from scratch(certfied cook). I can put whatever I want on it and make it with no problem.

Now you want a pizza, you buy one an microwave it.

End results, mine is fresher and took experience skill. (BS)

Yours was quicker but needed no skill, only understanding.(Izanagi)

What im saying is pizza was the goal i used BS to create it from scratch and bake it you used IZANAGI to just cook it.

BS is the entire name of the jutsu, izanagi is part of it. Not all of it.

Explanation 3: Ability

BS = Mac book pro
Izanagi = ipad(new)

Accomplishes part of the goals but coupd NEVER stand up to the original, completed version.
Your analogy is good but you can make it simpler like this.

Simply put pizza is the food(BS)

And when we ate it, what comes out next is the shit(izanagi)

Of course there are people who eat shit for strange reason,
Thus they will confused Izanagi to be BS when its not.

Cause its already stated in the raw original copy and that's authentic.

Last edited by Gamabunta; 10-26-2012 at 12:29 AM.
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