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Old 10-26-2012, 06:40 AM   #121
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamabunta View Post
Your analogy is good but you can make it simpler like this.

Simply put pizza is the food(BS)

And when we ate it, what comes out next is the shit(izanagi)

Of course there are people who eat shit for strange reason,
Thus they will confused Izanagi to be BS when its not.

Cause its already stated in the raw original copy and that's authentic.
Lol your analogy is shit, don't pardon the pun. Izanagi isn't some side effect to BS you retard. It's the PHYSICAL side of it, but a dunce like you thinks your bullshit example explains it all.

Nah dummy, the original copy says clearly, Izanagi is the physical application of BS, in other words, its a major part of BS.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:41 AM   #122
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Nah dummy, the original copy says clearly, Izanagi is the physical application of BS, in other words, its a major part of BS.
Izanagi is turning genjutsu into reality. Banbutsu Sozo on the other hand, was used to create the tailed beasts from the Juubi using a mix of Yin and Yang chakra.

Izanagi at best can be a derivative of BS.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:13 AM   #123
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Izanagi is turning genjutsu into reality. Banbutsu Sozo on the other hand, was used to create the tailed beasts from the Juubi using a mix of Yin and Yang chakra.

Izanagi at best can be a derivative of BS.
But that's NOT what the original Japanese says though. It says Izanagi was the physical application that BS used to create all those things. Its the fire for the jutsu basically
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:17 PM   #124
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
Izanagi is turning genjutsu into reality. Banbutsu Sozo on the other hand, was used to create the tailed beasts from the Juubi using a mix of Yin and Yang chakra.

Izanagi at best can be a derivative of BS.
No No No No!!!!!

Wolverine, dude, Banbutsu souzou is nothing other then a useless, P.O.S. without an ability to be applied... which is why it became Izanagi... thus why Izanagi is the practical application of banbutsu souzou...

Izanagi is the power to make a genjutsu real by bringing the imagination to life, turning into reality... But that is how the bijuu and the other things were created... By taking genjutsu (YIN element power) and bringing the genjutsu to life (applying YANG element)...

Izanagi is explained as a yin/yang technique...

YIN element is basically genjutsu... the application of imagination and spiritual energy to create for and shape from nothingness... (cast genjutsu) Then by applying life energy and physical energy as the basis for the YANG element, one can BRING that IMAGINED shape and form to life... making it real... THAT IS IZANAGI...


"BANBUTSU SOUZOU/CREATION OF ALL THINGS" is nothing without Izanagi... It is useless, impractical and inapplicable, meaning it cannot be applied specifically for any purpose... much less create things like bijuu....

The Bijuu were created with eh sage's power of the Uchiha+senju which is just his YIN and YANG power...
He applies imagination of YIN to create shape and form from nothingness... then applies the YANG to BRING the imagined shape and form to LIFE...

The bijuu are a creation of the sage's YIN/YANG (uchiha+senju) power.... The same power Izanagi is... a technique with the power to BRING IMAGINATION (the application of YIN) TO LIFE (the application of YANG)... making imagination real, turning into reality...

The power of YIN and YANG is Izanagi... making imagination real is what yin/yang jutsu does...

AGAIN... YIN/YANG

: The bijuu and many other things were created by the sage's YIN and Yang power... A.K.A. Power of Uchiha and senju...

: The Application of Imagination is the basis for the YIN element that creates shape and from from nothingness...
And the application of life energy and physical energy is the basis of YANG that GIVES LIFE to the imagination, of shapes and forms...

: The SAGE'S Izanagi is a Technique with the power to BRING IMAGINATION TO LIFE...
Turning IMAGINATION into REALITY...

Izanagi created the bijuu and many other things with his YIN/YANG power that comes from the sage's Uchiha+Senju power....



SO lets review...
: Banbutsu souzou is merely what became Izanagi because it lacked practicality and applicability which are qualities a technique must have, to be a technique....

: Izanagi is the practical application of banbutsu souzou... meaning IZANAGI is the useful, applied for the specific purpose of creation of all things...

(practical: "Useful, capable of being used....")
(Application: "usable/aplicable, capable of being applied for a specific purpose")

And if banbutsu souzou had to become Izanagi to be practical and applicable then on it's own it is nothing more then impractical and inapplicable, meaning it cannot be a technique without the qualities of "practicality" or "Applicability"... thus it didn't create the bijuu or anything else for that matter... Banbutsu souzou only as Izanagi could possibly do anything... and only as Izanagi can it do anything...

AGain, banbutsu souzou=impractical and inapplicable... which in the context of a ninja technique means it is not a technique at all... merely something that was useless, unable to be used/applied specifically, not applicable...

And IZANAGI=practical and applicable with creation of all things... which in the context of a ninja technique means, it is a useful, applied specifically for the purpose of creation of all things... technique...
Thus Izanagi is the jutsu for creation of all things and nothing more... as banbutsu souzou's practical application in the context of a ninjutsu/genjutsu technique...
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People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:17 AM   #125
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

^Dude, I don't know how veritable naruto wiki and those sites are but this is what it says...

"Izanagi is a genjutsu that is cast on the user instead of others and is the most powerful amongst this type of genjutsu.

When activated, the caster removes the boundaries between reality and illusion within their personal space. To a degree this allows the user to control their own state of existence, but it is normally only active for the briefest of moments.

While the user remains physically real while fighting, this technique is capable of turning any occurrence including injuries and even death inflicted upon themselves while the technique is active into mere "illusions". Whenever the user receives a fatal injury, he or she automatically fades away as though they were an illusion all along and then returns back to reality; physically real and unscathed. The technique is based on an ability the Sage of the Six Paths had, referred to as "Creation of All Things" (万物創造, Banbutsu Sōzō). The process he used is explained to have initially involved the administration of imagination, and the spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yin chakra to create shape and form from nothingness. Then, through the application of vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of Yang chakra, he would breathe life into the prior form. Thus, a technique with the power to turn imagination into reality was born, known as Izanagi."

From this, it can be said that Izanagi was based on BS, with BS being the jutsu that the Sage used himself. 'Creation Of All Things' was a two part process, the applicability of one half of which is similar to Izanagi.

The Sage himself was never said to have used Izanagi...
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:04 PM   #126
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

@Wolverine: how can you say the Sage was never said to have used Izanagi, when the manga explicitly says, Izanagi was the physical application of the jutsu he used, called BS?

Do you get it? Let me think of an example to make it simpler. Err, ok, amatersau. Without Ms, you cannot perform amatersau. Without a certain type of Ms, you cant do amatersau. One is dependant of the other, no?

So its like that with BS and Izanagi. BS is the imagination, Izanagi is the fuel for that imagination. That's what the scan says. If Izanagi and BS weren't linked, it wouldn't even have mentioned Izanagi in the same sentence, describing what BS does.

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Old 10-28-2012, 04:30 AM   #127
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
@Wolverine: how can you say the Sage was never said to have used Izanagi, when the manga explicitly says, Izanagi was the physical application of the jutsu he used, called BS?
That is what I have been trying to tell you. The SOSP only used Banbutsu Sozo and not Izanagi. Izanagi is a separate jutsu that is derived from one half of BS as a whole.
Quote:
Do you get it? Let me think of an example to make it simpler. Err, ok, amatersau. Without Ms, you cannot perform amatersau. Without a certain type of Ms, you cant do amatersau. One is dependant of the other, no?

So its like that with BS and Izanagi. BS is the imagination, Izanagi is the fuel for that imagination. That's what the scan says. If Izanagi and BS weren't linked, it wouldn't even have mentioned Izanagi in the same sentence, describing what BS does.
Since you've been talking about analogies. Let me put it this way...

Let's take our resident carebears favourite jutsu for example - The Rasengan. Naruto can use the Rasengan and the Rasenshuriken. Jiraiya, on the other hand, can only use the former and not the latter. The Rasenshuriken involves both elemental and shape manipulation. Thus, the application of the fundamentals behind the Rasengan is only a part of that of Rasenshuriken. Thus, we can say that Jiraiya doesn't use Rasenshuriken like Naruto does. Only that the Rasengan is one part of the Rasenshuriken and a precursor.

The only difference here is that Rasenshuriken is derived from the Rasengan while in the case of BS and Izanagi, the converse is true. It doesn't, in any way, mean that both are the same. I hope you got the comparison.
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:29 PM   #128
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
^Dude, I don't know how veritable naruto wiki and those sites are but this is what it says...

"Izanagi is a genjutsu that is cast on the user instead of others and is the most powerful amongst this type of genjutsu.

When activated, the caster removes the boundaries between reality and illusion within their personal space. To a degree this allows the user to control their own state of existence, but it is normally only active for the briefest of moments.


That is the Kinjutsu of the uchiha and only the uchiha... not the sage... I already explained it just as the manga does, but people choose to rely on narutowiki that can be changed by any tom-dick-harry who chooses to...


Quote:
While the user remains physically real while fighting, this technique is capable of turning any occurrence including injuries and even death inflicted upon themselves while the technique is active into mere "illusions". Whenever the user receives a fatal injury, he or she automatically fades away as though they were an illusion all along and then returns back to reality; physically real and unscathed. The technique is based on an ability the Sage of the Six Paths had, referred to as "Creation of All Things" (万物創造, Banbutsu Sōzō). The process he used is explained to have initially involved the administration of imagination, and the spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yin chakra to create shape and form from nothingness. Then, through the application of vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of Yang chakra, he would breathe life into the prior form. Thus, a technique with the power to turn imagination into reality was born, known as Izanagi."
That is completely incorrect... The uchiha's Izanagi is a technique of their own that only uses their power of YIN... as well is the technique Izanami that is made to punish the users of that jutsu...

However, Izanagi was originally a technique used by the sage as a practical application of creation of all things... meaning it was useable, and able to be applied for the creation of all things...

The very explanation of "turning imagination into reality, thus bringing the imagination to life... is how yin/yang jutsu works...

as I said above... YIN, the power of the uchiha's SG... is based on the application of IMAGINATION... as well as spiritual energy...
and YANG, the power of the senju/uzumaki BRINGS the IMAGINATION TO LIFE (shapes, forms and anything imagined by the mind) making it real...
THAT IS IZANAGI!!!! as explained by tobito...

Quote:
From this, it can be said that Izanagi was based on BS, with BS being the jutsu that the Sage used himself. 'Creation Of All Things' was a two part process, the applicability of one half of which is similar to Izanagi.

NO NO NOOOOO!!!

Banbutsu souzou was something the sage obviously could not use as an actual, useful, applicable ninjutsu/genjutsu technique, thus created Izanagi as a useable, applied specifically for the purpose of creation of all things, version... Izanagi is the practical application of banbutsu souzou as the manga stated...
Banbutsu souzou was never stated to of done anything other then become practical and applicable through Izanagi... Nothing else!!!

No one actually knows what banbutsu sou was before it became Izanagi... the only thing we know is that it must have not be something useable or applicable which is why Izanagi was created to be it's practical application...

and so there is no misconception with "practical" and "application" in the context of a ninjutsu/genjutsu technique...

and Practical: "Of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something."
and Application: "the act of putting to a special use or purpose: the application of common sense to a problem."

So by context of definition, Izanagi is the actual doing, use of/ putting to special use or purpose for creation of all things...
and a usable technique with the specific purpose of creation of all things... sounds like a technique that can create many things, including the bijuu... dont'cha think wolverine...!?!

Quote:
The Sage himself was never said to have used Izanagi...
Yes it did... the manga said that the sage of six paths was both clans (uchiha and senju) and bloodlines in one... and with his power, he created many things...
and we know that the power of the uchiha and senu are...

: UCHIHA=YIN elemental power of the SG that creates shape and form form nothingness through the application of IMAGINATION and spiritual energy...

: SENJU= YANG elemental power of the body that brings the shape and forms of the imagination to life... through the application of life energy and physical energy...

CONCLUSION: The sage using the power of the uchiha and senju is the use of the YIN/YANG elemental... and that is where they came from obviously...

The manga so obviously explained it it...

: Izanagi was a technique originally used as the practical application of the sage's creation of all things...
: Sage had the power of the senju and uchiha... by which he used to create many things...
: By using YIN based on the application of IMAGINATION and spiritual energy, he created shape and form from nothingness...
Then by using the YANG which is based on life/physical energy... He could bring the shape and form to life... making it real...
: The nine bijuu were a creation of the sage with the YIN/YANG power... created from the juubi's chakra...

A technique with the power to turn IMAGINATION (the application of YIN) into reality... BRINGING IMAGINATION TO LIFE (What the power of YANG element does)

let me post it again so people can know I am only repeating what the manga already explains...



And madara already made it clear there is the uchiha kinjutsu Izanagi and the inyoton jutsu (yin/yang technique) proving there is two separate Izanagi jutsu....
and do not cliim the Rikudou jutsu could be th eother Izanagi because it is the jutsu nagato and tobito used with the blck rods of madara's will to make six separate paths... shown here...
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KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


ITACHI UCHIHA

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Old 10-30-2012, 02:59 PM   #129
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Cool story, bro.
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:52 AM   #130
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

@KYF: Dude, I agree. Izanagi is a kinjutsu of the Uchiha and not the Sage. That is what I have been trying to say since the start. They're two different jutsus. Somehow, I got the impression that you and minato_uchiha were propagating the idea that the Sage used Izanagi. That is why I said that he use BS instead and that Izanagi was a jutsu derived from one partial characteristic/result of the application of BS.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:18 AM   #131
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

No, the Sage of course used BS, but a part of the BS he used to create, was called Izanagi. And that same part, the Uchiha's will later use in their kinjutsu, but it was different from the Sage's use of Izanagi, who had the rinnegan and the perfect body when using it.

Izanagi was part of BS, according to the manga says. Its one side of BS, its not seperate from it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:50 AM   #132
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Izanagi was part of BS, according to the manga says. Its one side of BS, its not seperate from it.
A part of it means that it's a separate jutsu considering Banbutsu Sozo is the name given to the jutsu with both parts as a whole. Since one part is separated, it's a separate jutsu, derived from BS, since it needs a name.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:43 AM   #133
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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A part of it means that it's a separate jutsu considering Banbutsu Sozo is the name given to the jutsu with both parts as a whole. Since one part is separated, it's a separate jutsu, derived from BS, since it needs a name.
Ok, lets put this to the test. Your body is BS and your arms and legs are Izanagai. Are they seperate because they have their own names or are they part of the body as a whole?

The fact that Izanagi now has a name, doesn't make it seperate from BS. It was always there and was a CRUCIAL part of BS. It just so happens that centuries later, the Sage's descendants will have access to a diluted and weaker version of a jutsu, the Sage used when performing BS.

Lol, its good that ppl can disagree without flaming. I respect you for that Wolverine
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:45 AM   #134
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok, lets put this to the test. Your body is BS and your arms and legs are Izanagai. Are they seperate because they have their own names or are they part of the body as a whole?
I get what you're saying and agree with it. However, if someone had to refer to your hands, you'd still call them 'hands' and not 'body'. No one is debating that they're a part of it. Just that he have a separate identity.

However, applying that logic to this world doesn't quite work out the same way because even slight nuances in application or characteristics are enough to deem the entity as having a separate identity... enough to stand alone.

The nuances in characteristics mean that the final application serves a different purpose. Izanagi turns a genjutsu into reality and BS is used ultimately to create.

One other difference that can be noted is that Izanagi is used on oneself in all instances that we've seen, while BS isn't like that.
Quote:
The fact that Izanagi now has a name, doesn't make it seperate from BS. It was always there and was a CRUCIAL part of BS. It just so happens that centuries later, the Sage's descendants will have access to a diluted and weaker version of a jutsu, the Sage used when performing BS.
Dude, by separate, I meant that it has a separate identity from BS, just like the fingers in your hand are called fingers and not hand, even though they're a part of it.

Izanagi was one part of the jutsu that the sage used. It is not the same. At least that is what I was trying to prove at the start. At this point I'm not even sure what we're debating since we do actually concur in a part that Izanagi ALONE was not what the sage used. Banbutsu Sozo is a two part process, a part of which is what Izanagi is derived from, but the jutsu itself is incomplete without the second part. That is why I said that Izanagi is derived from one half of Banbutsu Sozo.

Ultimately, the reason I deemed Izanagi as a separate identity is because it is one half of BS and needs an identity by itself. You cannot call it, 'the first half of BS'.
Quote:
Lol, its good that ppl can disagree without flaming. I respect you for that Wolverine
Lol, thanks man. It's not my style to needlessly flame. Doesn't serve any purpose other than setting up a precedent for degenerated arguments and predetermined perceptions.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:54 AM   #135
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Re: Secret behind Obito's Kamui?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
@KYF: Dude, I agree. Izanagi is a kinjutsu of the Uchiha and not the Sage. That is what I have been trying to say since the start. They're two different jutsus. Somehow, I got the impression that you and minato_uchiha were propagating the idea that the Sage used Izanagi. That is why I said that he use BS instead and that Izanagi was a jutsu derived from one partial characteristic/result of the application of BS.
Sigh!!!

The sage did use Izanagi, the manga stated it... You are caught up on their being only one Izanagi and only the uchiha's... but the manga said that Izanagi was a technique that was Originally the practical application of the sage's creation of all things...

#1).
Izanagi, the uchiha's kinjutsu is a technique that only uses the power of the uhciha's YIN element (SG power) to turn reality into an illusion for a brief moment... although senju DNA's YANG element can be used as well, but only to increase the time reality is an illusion though...


#2).
Sage's Izanagi, Originally the practical application of creation of all things that requires the power of the Uchiha/YIN element and senju/YANG element... and with this power can bring imagination to life... turning it into reality...
Basically making a genjutsu real by casting a genjutsu with the YIN element then breathing life into the illusion with the YNAG element making it real...
[SPOILER="

[/SPOILER]

That is two completely separate Izanagi's... as presented by the manga...

And in case you didn't read my OP...

[COLOR="Red"]Practical: "Of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something."
and Application: "the act of putting to a special use or purpose: the application of common sense to a problem."
[/COLOR]

And in the context of using a ninjutsu/genjutsu...

Izanagi being the practical application of banbutsu souzou/creation of all things... means it is the useful, usable, technique put to the special use of creation of all things...

Meaning it was a technique for creating all things as the practical application of banbutsu souzou... so The original Izanagi was a creation technique that was the practical application of creation of all things...


And as the manga said,

: the sage was both clans and bloodlines... and with his power (uchiha+senju), he created MANY THINGS....

: Uchiha and senju power is YIN and YANG power... the power that even created the bijuu using the tentails chakra...


: The sage's Izanagi uses Yin/Yang power... It brings imagination to life...

: Imagination is the basis of the YIN element that creates shape and form from nothingness, creating genjutsu...
and BRINGING TO LIFE is what the power of the Yang element does...


conclusion... The sage's Izanagi which uses the power of the uchiha and senju, aka, power of Yin and Yang... applies imagination to create shape and form then bring that imagined shape and form to life... by bringing imagination to life, making it real... thus Izanagi being the Yin/yang jutsu... is the technique that created the bijuu and many other things that the manga referred to...

There, that is it in a nit shell... The manga states it, it is just tricky because there being two Izanagi's is confusing... just read over the manga panels above, they explain everything I have....
__________________
KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


ITACHI UCHIHA

Last edited by Konnaha_yellow_flash; 11-02-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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