The Longest Thread Ever v28 - Page 1053

Vanity · 11-09-2012, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T9F

You know us white people. Always find something to be upset about.

On a more serious note, I think the negative reaction stemmed more from the fact that, realistically, the country was pretty much split between who the next president would be. Obama just got more votes from the States that matter. And that would obviously upset people.

And nobody likes to lose. Not that that gives them excuse to be so dramatic, but sometimes people just like to think they're making a statement when they actually just look like sore losers. (And it wasn't even them that necessarily lost.) But nonetheless, people took the loss personally.

If Romney had won the election, I probably would have been disappointed, but not enough to wear all black and cry like a child. I would have mentally readied myself to fight the power if he tried to take away planned parenthood and gay rights. And then I would have waited for January to see exactly how he planned to handle things, considering he changed his opinions on so many things that I couldn't even begin to wonder what he would have done.

But I do agree with you (so many nickels...) that we, as a nation, need to get our act together and stop being so "glass half empty." We could use this election to try and take more positive steps towards a better future for America. If Congress would stop being such ninnies.

Personally, I think this is a healthy sign of democratic state, so all the fucks I give.

I hope this helps the republican party re-evaluate their values. If anything, elections are good for seeing what is and is not working.

ACt · 11-09-2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T9F

You know us white people. Always find something to be upset about.

This.

Also, yes, it is a direct oversimplification to only go after white people upset. People of all races voted for Romney. I care not for the race distinction but more the reaction. Yes, sucks to lose, but the general public didn't lose! The Republicans lost because the majority of the public chose the Democrats (well,, this time it worked that way). You don't lose an election, you choose a government. The world doesn't end, you don't have a personal stake. Yet so many are over the top looking for doom and gloom over it. How do you go back and listen to Obama and believe in him or want him to do anything over the next four years? It emboldens the Republicans to actively block all of Obama and the Democrate governance which leads to four years of waste (which then the Republicans will blame on Obama and the Democrats).

And this isn't even a Republican thing! THe hand wringing and demonization of George W. Bush was the exact same thing. There is far too much Us vs Them. How the US does anything... it's amazing to me.

**Mal** · 11-09-2012, 08:19 AM

And that is why I am baffled by American Politics. As much as I think their system is flawed and ridiculous, it would work well enough if there wasn't such deeply entrenched partisanship that turned half the nation against anything proposed by the other side. Lincoln's "House Divided" speech is as applicable to the current anti-administration feelings as it was to slavery, and I cannot understand why it seems so unreasonable to come to a motherfucking compromise.

I hesitate the call America a democracy because it shits on the spirit of what I consider ideal democracy: That all people can voice their opinion, logically attack and defend their and their opponent's positions, and use mother fucking logic to come to a reasonable compromise. That first part is obviously impossible, so a representative democracy is needed, but it would work just as well if people would just stop thinking that there has to be an enemy. It's not "you" against "them," it's one mother fucking nation; fucking act like it.

ACt · 11-09-2012, 09:14 AM

I will add that I don't really give the Canadian Government a true pass on it either - there is a tonne of partisanship in our system, too. We even have a Senate (which in our system is a group of individuals who are chosen by the ruling Government to serve pretty much as long as they want and whose job is to sit on money wasting committees and ratify things the House of Commons want passed... which if you fill the Senate with Conservatives and another party gains power could be pretty awful. Needs to be scrapped). But the power is wielded by the Prime Minister and his Cabinet to set an agenda and have it approved by the House. If the party has a majority, things are passed pretty quickly. In a Minority, they have to gain votes or be defeated. With four parties (OK, five) there, they need to find consensus.

It still breaks down to some nasty partisanship (the current Conservative government has been one of the worst in a long long while) but at times, there is a need to work together and they do. There really isn't this four years regardless system.

Numinous · 11-09-2012, 09:35 AM

The problem with any partisan politics is that, the more time passes by, the more bipartisan politics are. That has been the nature of the game since the dawn of times.

What could fix it would be a unity government, in other words, a government proportionally represented by the voted parties instead of a one-party government. That would force parties within the government to sort their shit out in order to properly work.

**Mal** · 11-09-2012, 09:42 AM

Yeah, we definitely have partisanship as well, but I think having more than two parties helps to lessen the effects of it. Ideally I would like to see parties done away with entirely or at least have less "you're in this party, so you have to vote this way." You can't have a real debate when there is force allegiance to a party.

I'd also like to see social media start reducing spending on campaigning. I know this would kind of fuck over old people, but I'd like to see just a single website as a database of candidates. You find your constituency, and it gives you a list of the candidates, information about them, links to their personal website or YouTube account or whatever. The database site could be the only government funded part of campaigning, and the candidates could just use freely available tools to express their platform and ideas.

And yes, the Senate is completely useless and should be abolished.

ACt · 11-09-2012, 10:07 AM

Oh yeah, party lines bug the crap out of me especially on issues that you know the party is split on. The Ominbus Budget bills are also a terrible terrible mar on our democracy. Put forth by a guy who complained about them back in the day.

Bloody politicians.

**Miburo** · 11-09-2012, 12:17 PM

Well, we can't compromise with people about a lot of things. I don't think we should be looking to compromise with people who want to deny people rights and freedoms. Republican social positions are horrible and should be completely abandoned. Those people really, seriously, need to just stop that shit. There is no middle ground there.

Agree that the obstructionists in congress need to fuck off too.

Numinous · 11-09-2012, 12:47 PM

@ Mibs: If the US started using alternative vote, proportional representation and incentives to bipartisan fragmentation, I think the theocratic loonies of the Republican party would be absent from any relvant seat of power.

Tabris · 11-09-2012, 01:04 PM

If i wasn't set on marrying doug i would DEFINITELY marry Numinous
I think the Alternative Vote system would work much better. pretty much every where...

Do you know what's great? knowing about Electoral systems and nothing about politics. I lead a happy ignorant life, it's a very simple way to live. (except the ridings in my town, i know shit about that...)
I don't know anything about politics so i make a point of not complaining about most of it. The only thing i do know about is different electoral systems, because i actually really enjoy learning about that stuff.

Onto what's really important:

HEY GUYS! GUESS WHAT!?
My Princess Rosalina costume got third place in the anime division (no game division this year) of the Central Canada Comic Con Cosplay Contest. (MORE C's! C's for everyone!)
When the Con finally posts the gosh darn pictures of the contestants, i will post pictures.
gosh darn it they are slow.

Numinous · 11-09-2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabris

If i wasn't set on marrying doug i would DEFINITELY marry Numinous

If only I wasn't committed...

To be honest, I've been far more into politics and economics ever since Troika slapped us and the goddamn government is both stupid and stubborn to the max. It's rather sad when someone like me who never took economics, not even in high school, comes up with a plan far better than the travesty that is 2013's national budget.

It's funny in a way in that US politics are shitty due to the system and reluctance of changing it, while Portugal has an awesome political system and politics are even shittier because 99% of politicians are beyond corrupt and no outer entity has the balls to unleash the Interpol in our politicians like Iceland did.

kael03 · 11-09-2012, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACt

We even have a Senate (which in our system is a group of individuals who are chosen by the ruling Government to serve pretty much as long as they want and whose job is to sit on money wasting committees and ratify things the House of Commons want passed).

The only difference between this description of the Canadian Senate and the US Senate is how the officials are selected.

Edit: As far as the US economy is concerned, I think the biggest thing that needs to be done is reroute a chunk of the funds aimed at the military (nothing against our soldiers, I'm of the mindset that we don't need to have a military presence in every damn country on the planet, only a military presence that tells other countries to not fuck with us) towards things like cleaner fuel sources, education, and the space program.

Vanity · 11-09-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

It's funny in a way in that US politics are shitty due to the system and reluctance of changing it

It's because Madison was crazy afraid of mass-control, along with the ability of the government to do too much to suppress the people. Our system is so fragmented because it forces cohesion to make change, which is what he wanted: a slow moving process so that it would be difficult for both the people, and officials, to exploit it--checks and balances, and such.

Also, I agree with this:

Quote:

If the US started using alternative vote, proportional representation and incentives to bipartisan fragmentation, I think the theocratic loonies of the Republican party would be absent from any relevant seat of power.

As much as I think all the crazies will herd together to attain a decent percentage in a PR-house system, I also think that the majority of voters aren't really far right or far left, but rather dangle somewhere close to the middle, having leanings one way or the other. A PR system would ease the retarded "us vs them" battle that bipartisanship cultivates, and I think it would make for a smoother election process, especially if officials are presented for the party rather than elected. This would cut down on the fucking waste of money in campaigning. PACs, Super PACs, along with bundling, and soft money are easily some of the most corrupt things our election process has spawned.

Numinous · 11-09-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

It's because Madison was crazy afraid of mass-control, along with the ability of the government to do too much to suppress the people. Our system is so fragmented because it forces cohesion to make change, which is what he wanted: a slow moving process so that it would be difficult for both the people, and officials, to exploit it--checks and balances, and such.

Too bad parties thrived on the fragmentation rather than the attempt of cohesion.

Quote:

As much as I think all the crazies will herd together to attain a decent percentage in a PR-house system, I also think that the majority of voters aren't really far right or far left, but rather dangle somewhere close to the middle, having leanings one way or the other.

Well, both are somewhat correct. I'd say 80% of people are centrists or moderates, which leaves room for extremists to vote on a middle-of-the-road party and ensure seats for them, but the thing is I think the true crazies make up for 1% in a given extremity of the wings, so, if they voted on a party that truly expressed their convictions, they'd get at tops 1 seat on the government in some lousy department no one gives a shit about because the other parties wouldn't let that seat be of any relevancy.

Vanity · 11-09-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

Too bad parties thrived on the fragmentation rather than the attempt of cohesion.

Well, both are somewhat correct. I'd say 80% of people are centrists or moderates, which leaves room for extremists to vote on a middle-of-the-road party and ensure seats for them, but the thing is I think the true crazies make up for 1% in a given extremity of the wings, so, if they voted on a party that truly expressed their convictions, they'd get at tops 1 seat on the government in some lousy department no one gives a shit about because the other parties wouldn't let that seat be of any relevancy.

I'm also trying to take into account those that might vote for a representative due to misinformation. While voting for a party happens a lot now because it's the "lesser evil," it's still a problem that people vote for one because "Well, they agree with me on a few points, so that makes them good, right?" This might happen while either completely ignoring, or just not being fully informed of the full scope of a representatives stance. This happens frequently because people aren't encouraged to fully inform themselves. This isn't always the case, but for one reason or another, while the ability to vote for another might be an option [that would properly represent them], they may not know that. Naw'meen? It might not be enough to have a massive seat [like 25%], but it's still enough.

11-09-2012, 08:19 AM	#15783
Mal Scotch Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,098 Thanks: 12,840 Thanked 10,806 Times in 3,835 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 And that is why I am baffled by American Politics. As much as I think their system is flawed and ridiculous, it would work well enough if there wasn't such deeply entrenched partisanship that turned half the nation against anything proposed by the other side. Lincoln's "House Divided" speech is as applicable to the current anti-administration feelings as it was to slavery, and I cannot understand why it seems so unreasonable to come to a motherfucking compromise. I hesitate the call America a democracy because it shits on the spirit of what I consider ideal democracy: That all people can voice their opinion, logically attack and defend their and their opponent's positions, and use mother fucking logic to come to a reasonable compromise. That first part is obviously impossible, so a representative democracy is needed, but it would work just as well if people would just stop thinking that there has to be an enemy. It's not "you" against "them," it's one mother fucking nation; fucking act like it.

11-09-2012, 09:14 AM	#15784
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,249 Thanks: 5,321 Thanked 18,674 Times in 4,842 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 I will add that I don't really give the Canadian Government a true pass on it either - there is a tonne of partisanship in our system, too. We even have a Senate (which in our system is a group of individuals who are chosen by the ruling Government to serve pretty much as long as they want and whose job is to sit on money wasting committees and ratify things the House of Commons want passed... which if you fill the Senate with Conservatives and another party gains power could be pretty awful. Needs to be scrapped). But the power is wielded by the Prime Minister and his Cabinet to set an agenda and have it approved by the House. If the party has a majority, things are passed pretty quickly. In a Minority, they have to gain votes or be defeated. With four parties (OK, five) there, they need to find consensus. It still breaks down to some nasty partisanship (the current Conservative government has been one of the worst in a long long while) but at times, there is a need to work together and they do. There really isn't this four years regardless system. __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

11-09-2012, 09:35 AM	#15785
Numinous Writing speed: snail Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Porto, Portugal Posts: 4,881 Thanks: 8,493 Thanked 11,597 Times in 3,998 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 The problem with any partisan politics is that, the more time passes by, the more bipartisan politics are. That has been the nature of the game since the dawn of times. What could fix it would be a unity government, in other words, a government proportionally represented by the voted parties instead of a one-party government. That would force parties within the government to sort their shit out in order to properly work. __________________ My writings: Waters of Ocean Darkest Chapters: 1 - 2 Weaver Chapters: 0 - 1- 2 - 3 Björk Season My Top 25 Non-Romantic Songs

11-09-2012, 09:42 AM	#15786
Mal Scotch Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,098 Thanks: 12,840 Thanked 10,806 Times in 3,835 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 Yeah, we definitely have partisanship as well, but I think having more than two parties helps to lessen the effects of it. Ideally I would like to see parties done away with entirely or at least have less "you're in this party, so you have to vote this way." You can't have a real debate when there is force allegiance to a party. I'd also like to see social media start reducing spending on campaigning. I know this would kind of fuck over old people, but I'd like to see just a single website as a database of candidates. You find your constituency, and it gives you a list of the candidates, information about them, links to their personal website or YouTube account or whatever. The database site could be the only government funded part of campaigning, and the candidates could just use freely available tools to express their platform and ideas. And yes, the Senate is completely useless and should be abolished.

11-09-2012, 10:07 AM	#15787
ACt Heart Wizard Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Halls of Irreverence Posts: 3,249 Thanks: 5,321 Thanked 18,674 Times in 4,842 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 Oh yeah, party lines bug the crap out of me especially on issues that you know the party is split on. The Ominbus Budget bills are also a terrible terrible mar on our democracy. Put forth by a guy who complained about them back in the day. Bloody politicians. __________________ It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

11-09-2012, 12:17 PM	#15788
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 Well, we can't compromise with people about a lot of things. I don't think we should be looking to compromise with people who want to deny people rights and freedoms. Republican social positions are horrible and should be completely abandoned. Those people really, seriously, need to just stop that shit. There is no middle ground there. Agree that the obstructionists in congress need to fuck off too.

11-09-2012, 12:47 PM	#15789
Numinous Writing speed: snail Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Porto, Portugal Posts: 4,881 Thanks: 8,493 Thanked 11,597 Times in 3,998 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 @ Mibs: If the US started using alternative vote, proportional representation and incentives to bipartisan fragmentation, I think the theocratic loonies of the Republican party would be absent from any relvant seat of power. __________________ My writings: Waters of Ocean Darkest Chapters: 1 - 2 Weaver Chapters: 0 - 1- 2 - 3 Björk Season My Top 25 Non-Romantic Songs

11-09-2012, 01:04 PM	#15790
Tabris Sexy Lady Join Date: May 2005 Location: in a box, out side your house, with binoculars. Posts: 778 Thanks: 5,540 Thanked 4,286 Times in 1,950 Posts	Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28 If i wasn't set on marrying doug i would DEFINITELY marry Numinous I think the Alternative Vote system would work much better. pretty much every where... Do you know what's great? knowing about Electoral systems and nothing about politics. I lead a happy ignorant life, it's a very simple way to live. (except the ridings in my town, i know shit about that...) I don't know anything about politics so i make a point of not complaining about most of it. The only thing i do know about is different electoral systems, because i actually really enjoy learning about that stuff. Onto what's really important: HEY GUYS! GUESS WHAT!? My Princess Rosalina costume got third place in the anime division (no game division this year) of the Central Canada Comic Con Cosplay Contest. (MORE C's! C's for everyone!) When the Con finally posts the gosh darn pictures of the contestants, i will post pictures. gosh darn it they are slow. __________________ C&H FTW official co-owner of the digimon fan club! Last edited by Tabris; 11-09-2012 at 01:06 PM.

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