Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States - Page 3

Numinous · 11-15-2012, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

@Num
As far as the healthcare issue goes, there has been the Ryan Plan, the Paul plan, and other various plans that have been shot down by liberals and the MSM. There are other plans, some that I prefer to others. I would seriously take tidbits from all and use them as one plan, but that requires too much common sense from our politicians.

First, US is the only country that isn't my own that I follow the news religiously and only now I'm hearing of these plans. When Obamacare was a big thing, what I saw was Republicans scream "DEATH PANELS!! SOCIALISM!! THE COUNTRY WILL BE DESTROYED BY IT!" and other nonsensical counterarguments to it. I did not for once saw those Republican plans being properly discussed by the media.

And now that I've read them... dude, they're horrible! Ryan's plan could very well be renamed "Off-with-their-heads plan".

Quote:

On the energy issue, wind can be a viable source for smaller countries, but for a countries that are large, the cost isn't proficient to the possible dividends, especially considering what is considered "prime real estate" for the farms. At one point the largest wind farm (in the U.S.) was going to be constructed about 50 miles NNE of Joplin, MO, the "heart" of Tornado Alley.

What. You clearly are misinformed, since China is aiming to have wind energy to represent 12% of total energy 2015 and both Harvard and Tsinghua said that it can reach 100% (yes, 100%) by 2030 so wind power clearly can power a big country, it's just that small countries will obviously notice the effects much earlier.

Quote:

The last proposed plan for continental nuclear energy for the U.S. required roughly seven nuclear power plants on the national scale. One at each major regional station and three in between those. When also considering the numerous natural rivers in the U.S. that could be used as natural cooling stations for the plants, it makes too much sense. It would also alleviate some of the possible flooding for those river banks.

So those rivers are completely void of wild life? Because even the warming of the waters can disturb or downright destroy habitats, so using rivers as cooling systems is an horrible practice when a cooling tower could be built and simply use canalized water or a body of water specifically designed for that purpose.

Quote:

On the taxes issue, it all depends on which state you live in. U.S. citizens are required to pay an income tax, which is supposed to fund the majority of all federal programs. At the state and local levels; tourism, sales, and property taxes are supposed to be used to fund the programs at those levels.

I asked for what percentages you pay in taxes, not what taxes you paid since every tax you named we also have it here.

Quote:

What is upsetting, is that here in MD, this past year, state and local politicians took over $350 million out of the education fund. MD is a Democrat heavy state. This info was provided by the State treasurer (also a Dem) at his website (due to question 7, voting for a casino in Baltimore, MD) campaigning against that particular event. I haven't looked at the CAMFR, but not a single politician disputed that claim. If I were to stay a resident in Baltimore Co., there will be an increase on the tourism tax, and based on what these politicians did here, basically stealing from the education fund.... can you blame anyone for not trusting these goofballs. It pisses me off when politicians on both sides scream and cry education, and then steal from it.

... and corruption affects both wings of politics. Congratulations, you said what everybody knows. You want it to go away? Push for alternative ways to both govern and elect, push for your representatives to do the same Iceland did and let the Interpol hounds search out the shenanigans.

Quote:

P.s.
Also, what is the sq. footage of your residence? Right now, my family is living in 2200 sq.ft. (roughly 600 sq. ft is the garage), 3 level town-home.

Oh the imperial system, making me think it's a damn big house only to realize a square feet is roughly 0.09 square meters. So your house is roughly 204 square meters. Mine isn't that far off, it has 192 square meters divided by two levels. I'm counting the garage off since it isn't contiguous with the house.

jekyl_hyde · 11-15-2012, 08:41 AM

@Num
On the healthcare issue, you're kidding right? Both Paul and Ryan plans were literally announced days after Obamacare came out. As a whole, Ryan's plan is a more viable option than Obamacare. Ryan's plan comes with options. Obama's doesn't (same for Paul's).

On the energy issue... that's laughable. Wind is purely inefficient. The costs severely outweigh the benefits, and that's coming from liberal analysts, not conservative ones. Nuclear energy is the cleanest form of energy on the planet that is 100% efficient and effective (the only source of energy that is 100% in both categories). There are several ecologists that have stated that they have a means of filtering and purifying the water that would be used for the cooling system. Don't know how, because that's not my area of expertise, but if tree-hugging liberals say that it can be done, I'm actually going to put my money on it, since this would be a group that you would think would oppose it.

On the taxes, you can't break it down into a percentage. Simply put, the American citizen's taxes are deducted from their pay, sent to the IRS, and they do with it what they will. And depending on which state you live in, the true percentages are supposed to change, because of the varying and different taxes at the state level. Legally, an employer is supposed to provide proof of your pay and what amounts go towards taxes (as well as Social Security and Medicare). A taxpayer doesn't know what percentage of his/her individual taxes paid goes to. But the taxpayer can dig up the info through various means and take a look at the big picture budgets, but that would seriously be like reading 10 Obamacare bills (roughly 50,000 pages of budget work).

P.s.
And about your house... you suck (that's a joke by the way for those that would try to start something).

P.s.s.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...183500440.html

This just got interesting.

Numinous · 11-15-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

@Num
On the healthcare issue, you're kidding right? Both Paul and Ryan plans were literally announced days after Obamacare came out.

I'm saying what I recall, I was never made aware of such plans by the media, only of Obama's plan and of the plethora of Republicans whining about it. I'm sorry if that's not what really happened, but that's what transpired to us, foreigners.

Quote:

As a whole, Ryan's plan is a more viable option than Obamacare. Ryan's plan comes with options. Obama's doesn't (same for Paul's).

Sorry, I'm going to call bullshit on that one. If Ryan's plan was even presented in any European country, he'd be instantly called a lunatic, or worse, a butcher. I've seen both plans and Obama's and none is as satisfactory as your average European one, but Obama's plan is like "you must have an headache", while both Ryan and Paul's plans were like "you can choose between being beheaded and cleaved in twain". There's absolutely no reasonable argument that will make me think of those plans as something better than Obama's, they simply cannot be by design.

Quote:

On the energy issue... that's laughable. Wind is purely inefficient. The costs severely outweigh the benefits, and that's coming from liberal analysts, not conservative ones.

Bullshit. That's all I've got to say, considering it's been proven very efficient in countries like Portugal and Spain and China is betting on it and actually growing economically due to it. It's not perfect, but to say it's inefficient it's a blatant lie.

Quote:

Nuclear energy is the cleanest form of energy on the planet that is 100% efficient and effective (the only source of energy that is 100% in both categories). There are several ecologists that have stated that they have a means of filtering and purifying the water that would be used for the cooling system. Don't know how, because that's not my area of expertise, but if tree-hugging liberals say that it can be done, I'm actually going to put my money on it, since this would be a group that you would think would oppose it.

And I'm not condemning nuclear energy in the least, only that the cooling system shouldn't depend on any habited body of water. Hell, I'd like for Portugal to have one nuclear plant but everybody's panicking over it. All I said is that the US could expand on wind energy, since it has been proven efficient, unlike whatever charlatan sold you the opposite idea.

Quote:

On the taxes, you can't break it down into a percentage. Simply put, the American citizen's taxes are deducted from their pay, sent to the IRS, and they do with it what they will. And depending on which state you live in, the true percentages are supposed to change, because of the varying and different taxes at the state level. Legally, an employer is supposed to provide proof of your pay and what amounts go towards taxes (as well as Social Security and Medicare). A taxpayer doesn't know what percentage of his/her individual taxes paid goes to. But the taxpayer can dig up the info through various means and take a look at the big picture budgets, but that would seriously be like reading 10 Obamacare bills (roughly 50,000 pages of budget work).

So in your utility bills, shopping bills, etc, it doesn't show what the percentage of tax you pay? You know, something like "I paid X% of tax on this milk bottle"? THAT'S what I'm asking for to see if your "reducing taxes" complaint is of merit, not all this background, almost conspiracy-worthy information.

Quote:

P.s.
And about your house... you suck (that's a joke by the way for those that would try to start something).

No, my wind energy blows so hard I save more than 10 bucks on the electricity bill!

Quote:

P.s.s.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...183500440.html

This just got interesting.

It's getting boring. Only when Texas gets serious I'll even consider the petitions something more than butthurt.

kael03 · 11-15-2012, 12:41 PM

Num, if you're asking about consumer tax it varies from state to state. In Michigan, for example, we have a 6% sales tax on non-food shit. I don't remember exactly what the tax rate I pay for my utilities, but I think it's about the same.

Numinous · 11-15-2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

Num, if you're asking about consumer tax it varies from state to state. In Michigan, for example, we have a 6% sales tax on non-food shit. I don't remember exactly what the tax rate I pay for my utilities, but I think it's about the same.

I know it varies from state to state, I just want to know his. If they're similar to yours, he'll probably be looking for his jaw after I present my taxes.

T9F · 11-15-2012, 01:11 PM

Num is killing it in here. But I just wanted to add that New Hampshire has no sales tax and I like it a lot.

Playa · 11-15-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

I know it varies from state to state, I just want to know his. If they're similar to yours, he'll probably be looking for his jaw after I present my taxes.

8.25% Sales tax over here in 'butthurt' Texas as you so aptly stated... -_____-

jekyl_hyde · 11-15-2012, 03:54 PM

@Num

We agree to disagree on the healthcare issue... no harm, no foul.

And on the energy issue, let me back up as well about wind. Let me start by saying that I'm not completely against it, but from the estimates that have been given of what it would take to power the state of Missouri (an average size state that has the most "opportunity" for wind farms and available source being located along the jet-stream), the cost-benefit ratio doesn't measure up to nuclear energy.

On the taxes issues we'll estimate that my family pays roughly 3-5% on the utility taxes and other concise taxes (including phone, tv, internet, and auto registration). Right now, the residence I live in we rent, so I would have to talk to the owner about MD property taxes, but I know they're sky high compared to our neighbors to the west (WV) and south (VA).

For the majority of most states, the total taxes (in percentage points) is pretty similar. For those states that have a high sales tax, they tend to have lower property, municipality, and income taxes (for instance, TN and AL have 10% sales tax on all items, not including the tourism tax, while one {TN} has no income tax and the other {AL} has a low rate... 1-2%... can't remember which one). NH and NV, states with no sales taxes, have relatively high property taxes. Not to mention the high municipality taxes that are paid in those two states.

P.s.
What is interesting is that the petitions now have a total of over 3/4 million digital signatures, which it will be interesting to see how the President responds to this... outcry. Like I said, I remember the petitions back in 2004 and 2008, but they didn't get to this level.

**Mal** · 11-16-2012, 01:07 AM

On the subject of sales tax, 7% Provincial and 5% Federal for a total of 12% here in Manitoba.

Numinous · 11-16-2012, 07:37 AM

And now, ladies and gentleman, the taxes I pay!

2% on income
6% on products considered essential (bottled water, milk, bread, vegetables, meat, fish, etc.)
13% on products considered average (chocolate, coffee, flavored milk, canned goods, fruit, items for babies, school material, etc.)
23% on products considered luxurious (appliances, toys, perfumes, videogames, etc.)
6% on water and gas services
A fixed 6 euros (7.6 dollars) for monthly sewer services
23% on electricity, TV and Internet services
A fixed 27 euros (34.3 dollars) for annual "audiovisual contribution"
33% on oil-derived products (like gasoline and diesel)
25% on fuels (oil-derived, biodiesel and gas)
Variable monthly tax on car circulation (I pay 35 euros/44.6 dollars)
A fixed 10 euros (12.7 dollars) per month for using public spaces to walk my dog
A fixed 15 euros (19.1 dollars) per year for using water in graveyards

(Those last two are municipality-only taxes and I don't pay property taxes).

So, jekyl_hyde, you still think that your taxes are oh-so high they must be lowered? I'd give up a limb if that got me taxes as low as yours.

stubborn_d0nkey · 11-16-2012, 08:33 AM

I don't know much about my local taxes, but it's 17% for products (there might be some exceptions for essentials). There has been talk about it increasing to 25% like in Croatia (AFAIK, we have a lot of copy/paste in our laws, mostly from Croatia)

**Mal** · 11-16-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

And now, ladies and gentleman, the taxes I pay!

So, jekyl_hyde, you still think that your taxes are oh-so high they must be lowered? I'd give up a limb if that got me taxes as low as yours.

Over all, I think I would actually prefer that tax policy, but only because my taxes last week were about 50% of a minimum wage paycheque.

jekyl_hyde · 11-18-2012, 03:02 PM

@Num,

Thanks for the breakdown. Just to be clear, I'm not a whiny baby crying over spilled milk. I would love for my taxes to be minimized, but I'm also in favor in the flat tax rate for the U.S. Right now, that would not benefit my family, but possibly later on down the road, it would, but in the here and now, the answer is of no benefit to me.

What does "grind my gears", is that we (the U.S.) have politicians, both blue and red, who greedily rob the taxpayers of the low taxes we already pay.

And about your list... I would have to go back and look at the bills, but a couple of the items you pay taxes for, are private, premium items that the consumer pays for here (sales tax for the consumer), but the service provider pays the municipality tax (i.e. the dog walk and poo one). But honestly, depending on which state a person lives in, that person could end up paying thousands of dollars on property tax per year alone.

jericho Uzimaki · 11-20-2012, 12:50 PM

just wanted to take a moment here.

I really respect you guys that are posting in here. You(we) can go form debating and flat out arguing over fictional characters and their abilities to having intellectual conversations about topics such as these.

Seriously I really respect you guys,that I have no idea who you really are, more than people I know in person. lol

continue.

jekyl_hyde · 11-20-2012, 04:09 PM

After going back and re-reading some of these posts, I didn't know that many of you were located outside of the U.S. I mean I knew of several of you, like Num and Mal, but the rest, not so much. Pretty cool little tidbit of info imo.

@Num
I just found out from my wife, that her great-grandfather is going to have to pay $15,000 in property taxes for a home valued at $150k in St. Petersburg, FL. His home in Maine, estimated same value... only $5,500 in property taxes (last year's figures). And for those that don't know, that's a real small house in FL by their financial standards (I think he said roughly 950 sq. ft).

11-15-2012, 08:41 AM	#32
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 613 Thanked 1,048 Times in 400 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States @Num On the healthcare issue, you're kidding right? Both Paul and Ryan plans were literally announced days after Obamacare came out. As a whole, Ryan's plan is a more viable option than Obamacare. Ryan's plan comes with options. Obama's doesn't (same for Paul's). On the energy issue... that's laughable. Wind is purely inefficient. The costs severely outweigh the benefits, and that's coming from liberal analysts, not conservative ones. Nuclear energy is the cleanest form of energy on the planet that is 100% efficient and effective (the only source of energy that is 100% in both categories). There are several ecologists that have stated that they have a means of filtering and purifying the water that would be used for the cooling system. Don't know how, because that's not my area of expertise, but if tree-hugging liberals say that it can be done, I'm actually going to put my money on it, since this would be a group that you would think would oppose it. On the taxes, you can't break it down into a percentage. Simply put, the American citizen's taxes are deducted from their pay, sent to the IRS, and they do with it what they will. And depending on which state you live in, the true percentages are supposed to change, because of the varying and different taxes at the state level. Legally, an employer is supposed to provide proof of your pay and what amounts go towards taxes (as well as Social Security and Medicare). A taxpayer doesn't know what percentage of his/her individual taxes paid goes to. But the taxpayer can dig up the info through various means and take a look at the big picture budgets, but that would seriously be like reading 10 Obamacare bills (roughly 50,000 pages of budget work). P.s. And about your house... you suck (that's a joke by the way for those that would try to start something). P.s.s. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...183500440.html This just got interesting. Last edited by jekyl_hyde; 11-15-2012 at 08:45 AM.

11-15-2012, 12:41 PM	#34
kael03 Aspiring Physicist Join Date: May 2010 Age: 27 Posts: 4,602 Thanks: 4,852 Thanked 8,542 Times in 3,786 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States Num, if you're asking about consumer tax it varies from state to state. In Michigan, for example, we have a 6% sales tax on non-food shit. I don't remember exactly what the tax rate I pay for my utilities, but I think it's about the same.

11-15-2012, 01:11 PM	#36
T9F OOOH CHAMPAGNE Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 293 Thanks: 1,483 Thanked 1,160 Times in 421 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States Num is killing it in here. But I just wanted to add that New Hampshire has no sales tax and I like it a lot.

11-15-2012, 03:54 PM	#38
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 613 Thanked 1,048 Times in 400 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States @Num We agree to disagree on the healthcare issue... no harm, no foul. And on the energy issue, let me back up as well about wind. Let me start by saying that I'm not completely against it, but from the estimates that have been given of what it would take to power the state of Missouri (an average size state that has the most "opportunity" for wind farms and available source being located along the jet-stream), the cost-benefit ratio doesn't measure up to nuclear energy. On the taxes issues we'll estimate that my family pays roughly 3-5% on the utility taxes and other concise taxes (including phone, tv, internet, and auto registration). Right now, the residence I live in we rent, so I would have to talk to the owner about MD property taxes, but I know they're sky high compared to our neighbors to the west (WV) and south (VA). For the majority of most states, the total taxes (in percentage points) is pretty similar. For those states that have a high sales tax, they tend to have lower property, municipality, and income taxes (for instance, TN and AL have 10% sales tax on all items, not including the tourism tax, while one {TN} has no income tax and the other {AL} has a low rate... 1-2%... can't remember which one). NH and NV, states with no sales taxes, have relatively high property taxes. Not to mention the high municipality taxes that are paid in those two states. P.s. What is interesting is that the petitions now have a total of over 3/4 million digital signatures, which it will be interesting to see how the President responds to this... outcry. Like I said, I remember the petitions back in 2004 and 2008, but they didn't get to this level. Last edited by jekyl_hyde; 11-15-2012 at 04:02 PM.

11-16-2012, 01:07 AM	#39
Mal Scotch Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,101 Thanks: 12,855 Thanked 10,823 Times in 3,840 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States On the subject of sales tax, 7% Provincial and 5% Federal for a total of 12% here in Manitoba.

11-16-2012, 07:37 AM	#40
Numinous Writing speed: snail Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Porto, Portugal Posts: 4,893 Thanks: 8,515 Thanked 11,626 Times in 4,009 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States And now, ladies and gentleman, the taxes I pay! 2% on income 6% on products considered essential (bottled water, milk, bread, vegetables, meat, fish, etc.) 13% on products considered average (chocolate, coffee, flavored milk, canned goods, fruit, items for babies, school material, etc.) 23% on products considered luxurious (appliances, toys, perfumes, videogames, etc.) 6% on water and gas services A fixed 6 euros (7.6 dollars) for monthly sewer services 23% on electricity, TV and Internet services A fixed 27 euros (34.3 dollars) for annual "audiovisual contribution" 33% on oil-derived products (like gasoline and diesel) 25% on fuels (oil-derived, biodiesel and gas) Variable monthly tax on car circulation (I pay 35 euros/44.6 dollars) A fixed 10 euros (12.7 dollars) per month for using public spaces to walk my dog A fixed 15 euros (19.1 dollars) per year for using water in graveyards (Those last two are municipality-only taxes and I don't pay property taxes). So, jekyl_hyde, you still think that your taxes are oh-so high they must be lowered? I'd give up a limb if that got me taxes as low as yours. __________________ My writings: Waters of Ocean Darkest Chapters: 1 - 2 Weaver Chapters: 0 - 1- 2 - 3 Björk Season My Top 25 Non-Romantic Songs

11-18-2012, 03:02 PM	#43
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 613 Thanked 1,048 Times in 400 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States @Num, Thanks for the breakdown. Just to be clear, I'm not a whiny baby crying over spilled milk. I would love for my taxes to be minimized, but I'm also in favor in the flat tax rate for the U.S. Right now, that would not benefit my family, but possibly later on down the road, it would, but in the here and now, the answer is of no benefit to me. What does "grind my gears", is that we (the U.S.) have politicians, both blue and red, who greedily rob the taxpayers of the low taxes we already pay. And about your list... I would have to go back and look at the bills, but a couple of the items you pay taxes for, are private, premium items that the consumer pays for here (sales tax for the consumer), but the service provider pays the municipality tax (i.e. the dog walk and poo one). But honestly, depending on which state a person lives in, that person could end up paying thousands of dollars on property tax per year alone.

11-20-2012, 12:50 PM	#44
jericho Uzimaki ANBU Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 1,608 Thanks: 1,840 Thanked 1,549 Times in 500 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States just wanted to take a moment here. I really respect you guys that are posting in here. You(we) can go form debating and flat out arguing over fictional characters and their abilities to having intellectual conversations about topics such as these. Seriously I really respect you guys,that I have no idea who you really are, more than people I know in person. lol continue. __________________ Gamble Joshua the Rogue Transformers:Generations For NaruHina fans First Orange knuckle head ninja The Question

11-20-2012, 04:09 PM	#45
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 613 Thanked 1,048 Times in 400 Posts	Re: Citizens from 15 states have filed petitions to secede from the United States After going back and re-reading some of these posts, I didn't know that many of you were located outside of the U.S. I mean I knew of several of you, like Num and Mal, but the rest, not so much. Pretty cool little tidbit of info imo. @Num I just found out from my wife, that her great-grandfather is going to have to pay $15,000 in property taxes for a home valued at $150k in St. Petersburg, FL. His home in Maine, estimated same value... only $5,500 in property taxes (last year's figures). And for those that don't know, that's a real small house in FL by their financial standards (I think he said roughly 950 sq. ft).

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