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Old 11-26-2012, 02:30 PM   #1
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The Nature energy Connection...

I have always thought there was a connection between senjutsu and the bijuu and apparently it is nature energy... it creates chakra that changes the pupil, causes pigmentation around the eye or both...

Naruto, kabuto and juugo in sage mode showing pupil change, pigmentation or both...


just like jink's experience when they use their bijuu's power... they take on the pupil of thier bijuu... Just as sage's do when they take on the nature energy using the form of senjutsu of their systems animal...


and when it comes to doujutsu like the SG, MS, EMS, RG... IMO... they are clearly connected as well... I am theorizing that a certain amount of nature energy is used by uchiha which is why their pupil changes... just like others who use form's of nature energy chakra... power gained from the sage, from the juubi in the form of YIN nature chakra... which could just be YIN nature energy chakra... YIN sage chakra to more precise...

SG/MS/EMS/RG is just the gaining of the pupil of the juubi in three different levels... (The EMS is just a double fuuin MS with double MS power... not much different then a standard MS...)
And the juubi shows it does have the power of the SG and RG... Thus, those who have the SG/MS/EMS have about 1/4 to half the juubi's power with pure YIN nature chakra...
But those who have gained the RG have the full power of the juubi with it's pure YIN and YANG nature chakra's... (likely sage chakra forms of Yin/Yang IMO)

This all explains why the SG evolves... The pupils change as the power of the juubi increases within the user... from SG-MS-EMS-RG... The eye's are not changing, only the power of the juubi within them...

I mean, if...
: the juubi's power that was gained by the sage, was Yin/Yang nature chakras... (Yin nature chakra going to the uchiha which increases their perceptual abilities... and Yang nature chakra going to the senju who gain more powerful bodies...)

: And if the juubi uses nature energy as it's power...

Conclusion: Then the nature chakra's gained by the sage from the juubi, passed on to his sons and descendant... is likely nature energy chakra's... making form's of Sage chakra's... making the senju's powerful body due to nature energy and the uchiha's powerful eye's due to nature energy as well...

Think about it... there is two known Senjutsu systems and power/abilities...

1. Ryuuchudou Snake/Dragon senjutsu that increases the perceptual abilities of the user as kabuto said... which is exactly what the YIN nature chakra of the SG does as well... gained from the elder son of the sage...
2. Myubokuzan Frog senjutsu that increases the power of the body just as Yang nature chakra does for the senju/uzumaki.... gained from the younger son of the sage...

Meaning there could be two ways to gain the power of the sage/juubi... (could explain how Oro intends on gaining the sage's power without using the same method as akatsuki)
As well as explain why only certain people can use senjutsu... (Those who have Yin nature chakra can use Yin nature sage chakra senjutsu, like snake/ dragon senjutsu... or those with Yang nature chakra can use Yang nature sage chakra senjutsu, like frog senjutsu...)

and that the power of the Juubi/sage, passed on to his descendant is actually forms of sage chakra... not just some regular chakra with a mere nature similar to the other five elements... But a YIN and YANG sage chakra with their own form of nature energy...
One capable of increasing one's perceptual abilities and the other capable of increasing the power of the physical body...

Any Ideas???

EDIT: If ryuuchudou power of juugo and Oro is YIN nature based sage chakra then sasuke is compatible to use it... But without the frog senjutsu to increase the power of his body... Sasuke will not awaken the RG from his EMS...
However, the YIN nature senjutsu increases the perceptual abilities and sasuke already has such powerful perceptual abilities... Then by gaining dragon SM by using juugo's infused flesh (cells) in his body. Sasuke could gain a whole new doujutsu with perceptual abilities beyond anything ever seen in the manga yet....

Sasuke could gain a Mangekyou ShaRyuGan!!!!

Also, sasuke's dark chakra from the summit and danzou fight at this point is likely due to Juugo's flesh... WHen juugo gave sasuke so much flesh of is own, he implanted allot of his cells into sasuke which would produce his chakra as well as allow sasuke to take in a certain amount of Nature energy which is likely why he was being so evil... remember, thos who take in nature energy and cannot control it go Berserk...
That And why sasuke's chakra increased so much in the danzou fight as well...
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And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


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People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
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so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


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Old 11-26-2012, 02:49 PM   #2
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash View Post
I have always thought there was a connection between senjutsu and the bijuu and apparently it is nature energy... it creates chakra that changes the pupil, causes pigmentation around the eye or both...

Naruto, kabuto and juugo in sage mode showing pupil change, pigmentation or both...


just like jink's experience when they use their bijuu's power... they take on the pupil of thier bijuu... Just as sage's do when they take on the nature energy using the form of senjutsu of their systems animal...


and when it comes to doujutsu like the SG, MS, EMS, RG... IMO... they are clearly connected as well... I am theorizing that a certain amount of nature energy is used by uchiha which is why their pupil changes... just like others who use form's of nature energy chakra... power gained from the sage, from the juubi in the form of YIN nature chakra... which could just be YIN nature energy chakra... YIN sage chakra to more precise...

SG/MS/EMS/RG is just the gaining of the pupil of the juubi in three different levels... (The EMS is just a double fuuin MS with double MS power... not much different then a standard MS...)
And the juubi shows it does have the power of the SG and RG... Thus, those who have the SG/MS/EMS have about 1/4 to half the juubi's power with pure YIN nature chakra...
But those who have gained the RG have the full power of the juubi with it's pure YIN and YANG nature chakra's... (likely sage chakra forms of Yin/Yang IMO)

This all explains why the SG evolves... The pupils change as the power of the juubi increases within the user... from SG-MS-EMS-RG... The eye's are not changing, only the power of the juubi within them...

I mean, if...
: the juubi's power that was gained by the sage, was Yin/Yang nature chakras... (Yin nature chakra going to the uchiha which increases their perceptual abilities... and Yang nature chakra going to the senju who gain more powerful bodies...)

: And if the juubi uses nature energy as it's power...

Conclusion: Then the nature chakra's gained by the sage from the juubi, passed on to his sons and descendant... is likely nature energy chakra's... making form's of Sage chakra's... making the senju's powerful body due to nature energy and the uchiha's powerful eye's due to nature energy as well...

Think about it... there is two known Senjutsu systems and power/abilities...

1. Ryuuchudou Snake/Dragon senjutsu that increases the perceptual abilities of the user as kabuto said... which is exactly what the YIN nature chakra of the SG does as well... gained from the elder son of the sage...
2. Myubokuzan Frog senjutsu that increases the power of the body just as Yang nature chakra does for the senju/uzumaki.... gained from the younger son of the sage...

Meaning there could be two ways to gain the power of the sage/juubi... (could explain how Oro intends on gaining the sage's power without using the same method as akatsuki)
As well as explain why only certain people can use senjutsu... (Those who have Yin nature chakra can use Yin nature sage chakra senjutsu, like snake/ dragon senjutsu... or those with Yang nature chakra can use Yang nature sage chakra senjutsu, like frog senjutsu...)

and that the power of the Juubi/sage, passed on to his descendant is actually forms of sage chakra... not just some regular chakra with a mere nature similar to the other five elements... But a YIN and YANG sage chakra with their own form of nature energy...
One capable of increasing one's perceptual abilities and the other capable of increasing the power of the physical body...

Any Ideas???

EDIT: If ryuuchudou power of juugo and Oro is YIN nature based sage chakra then sasuke is compatible to use it... But without the frog senjutsu to increase the power of his body... Sasuke will not awaken the RG from his EMS...
However, the YIN nature senjutsu increases the perceptual abilities and sasuke already has such powerful perceptual abilities... Then by gaining dragon SM by using juugo's infused flesh (cells) in his body. Sasuke could gain a whole new doujutsu with perceptual abilities beyond anything ever seen in the manga yet....

Sasuke could gain a Mangekyou ShaRyuGan!!!!

Also, sasuke's dark chakra from the summit and danzou fight at this point is likely due to Juugo's flesh... WHen juugo gave sasuke so much flesh of is own, he implanted allot of his cells into sasuke which would produce his chakra as well as allow sasuke to take in a certain amount of Nature energy which is likely why he was being so evil... remember, thos who take in nature energy and cannot control it go Berserk...
That And why sasuke's chakra increased so much in the danzou fight as well...
you have alot of time dude...
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:43 PM   #3
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash View Post

WHen juugo gave sasuke so much flesh of is own, he implanted allot of his cells into sasuke which would produce his chakra as well as allow sasuke to take in a certain amount of Nature energy which is likely why he was being so evil...
i dont know abt others but this particular thing interests me. Rem when juugo says his cells are compatible to sasuke, i think sasuke is rel to sage too like the gold n silver brothers are
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:17 AM   #4
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Where do you get this Yin nature chakra from?
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:28 AM   #5
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encon Uchiha View Post
you have alot of time dude...
This theory took me allot less time then any Prediction I have ever made, but no one seems to complain about those... or anyone else's... How about you just go on about your business if you do not have anything to say about the theory itself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
Where do you get this Yin nature chakra from?
Seriously... It is the power the sage uses to give shape and form to nothingness which is based on spiritual energy and imagination...

Also used by other genjutsu users...
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KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


ITACHI UCHIHA
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:46 AM   #6
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Your theory fine though it will be good if there's a connection between the pics and the conclusion. Something like a senju among the pics will do great.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:03 AM   #7
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pritha View Post
i dont know abt others but this particular thing interests me. Rem when juugo says his cells are compatible to sasuke, i think sasuke is rel to sage too like the gold n silver brothers are
4 things are wrong with this:
  • Fourth. Sage mode, which is what Juugo/Naruto/Jiraiya/Kabuto use, is not the same as what the Sage of Six Paths used. The Sage was able to use all of the base elements along with yin and yang. He was never said to be able to harness Nature chakra. Nor was it said that Juugo and his clan are descended from the Sage.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:02 AM   #8
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
4 things are wrong with this:
  • Fourth. Sage mode, which is what Juugo/Naruto/Jiraiya/Kabuto use, is not the same as what the Sage of Six Paths used. The Sage was able to use all of the base elements along with yin and yang. He was never said to be able to harness Nature chakra. Nor was it said that Juugo and his clan are descended from the Sage.
Ya ya Sry. I just realised that my whole point did not get there. What I was planning to say is that sasuke may learn To control sage jutsu once he is aware of it (i know he is aware of it, I just meant him using it) and that might match up with naruto power level.

And I was just pointing it out in sasuke's case. Ofcourse the juugo's cell is compatible to all, infact the curse seal was done from studying him.

Last edited by Pritha; 11-27-2012 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:56 AM   #9
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
4 things are wrong with this:

  • Fourth. Sage mode, which is what Juugo/Naruto/Jiraiya/Kabuto use, is not the same as what the Sage of Six Paths used. The Sage was able to use all of the base elements along with yin and yang. He was never said to be able to harness Nature chakra. Nor was it said that Juugo and his clan are descended from the Sage.
However, now that we know that the juubi's power is nature energy, the same power the sage inherited when he became it's jink... So then it looks like not only did the juubi use nature energy and when creating chakra, have sage chakra... But the sage used the same power as well as it's jink and so the descendants are using sage power as well (uchiha, senju, uzumaki)

I mean, he is called the SAGE, you know, the name of a person who uses senjutsu with nature energy chakra... yet somehow the idea that he was using sage chakra (nature energy enhanced chakra) is just not something you could see happening...

Face it, everything the sage passed on clearly came from the juubi... Thus, everything that came from the sage, passed on to his descendants is the same power as the juubi's... thus sage power (Nature energy enhanced chakra)...
__________________
KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


ITACHI UCHIHA
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:06 PM   #10
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pritha View Post
What I was planning to say is that sasuke may learn To control sage jutsu once he is aware of it (i know he is aware of it, I just meant him using it) and that might match up with naruto power level.
Even with the sharingan, Sasuke hasn't had time to learn Sage mode. Remember that the dealings with him is in the same timeframe and Naruto and company vs Obito/Madara/Juubi. Aside from the lack of time, what animal would Sasuke use? He has no ties to the snakes outside of Orochimaru, so he can't use Dragon mode. We've seen nothing about the hawks outside of the one that he summoned against Danzo. Also, there would be no point in Sasuke sharing an ability with his storied rival. He has EMS, Naruto has Kurama and Sage mode (which is time consuming to charge, I might add). The final fight between Sasuke and Naruto is going to be Susano'o vs Kurama mode. Sage mode won't work for that fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash View Post
However, now that we know that the juubi's power is nature energy, the same power the sage inherited when he became it's jink... So then it looks like not only did the juubi use nature energy and when creating chakra, have sage chakra... But the sage used the same power as well as it's jink and so the descendants are using sage power as well (uchiha, senju, uzumaki)
2 things:
  • First, the Sage was never said to have used the Juubi while he was the Jink, only that he sealed it away in himself to save the planet. Until such a statement is made you are arguing from ignorance.
  • Second, aside from Naruto there hasn't been a single descendant of the Sage that has shown the ability to use Sage mode. No one from the Uchiha, Senju, or any other Uzumaki has been said to use Nature chakra. Again, until such a statement is made you are arguing from ignorance.

Quote:
I mean, he is called the SAGE, you know, the name of a person who uses senjutsu with nature energy chakra...
He has also been called the Rikudou Hermit. People claiming to be sages are often hermits, to give them a better understanding of nature and their "gifts" by keeping themselves away from society as much as possible. Calling him a sage doesn't mean he has access to Nature chakra, only that he is a hermit that has an understanding of the world (he was the first to teach about chakra).

Quote:
yet somehow the idea that he was using sage chakra (nature energy enhanced chakra) is just not something you could see happening...
I never said it was something I couldn't see happening, only that it hasn't been said to have happened. Claiming that it's fact without evidence to back it up (see: a manga panel that explicitly states something along the lines of "The Sage was able to manipulate the Juubi's chakra and use Nature chakra") is fallacious.

Quote:
Face it, everything the sage passed on clearly came from the juubi... Thus, everything that came from the sage, passed on to his descendants is the same power as the juubi's... thus sage power (Nature energy enhanced chakra)...
Not everything that the sage passed on came from the Juubi. He had the Rinnegan before he confronted the Juubi. So dojutsus like the Sharingan (which is a step to obtaining the Rinnegan) can be tied back to the Sage himself. Chakra manipulation also came before the Juubi, as the Sage had to use chakra to create the seals used to contain the Juubi. There are at least two things that haven't been attributed to the Juubi, so your argument of "everything the sage passed on was from the Juubi" is false.
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:21 PM   #11
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Even with the sharingan, Sasuke hasn't had time to learn Sage mode. Remember that the dealings with him is in the same timeframe and Naruto and company vs Obito/Madara/Juubi. Aside from the lack of time, what animal would Sasuke use? He has no ties to the snakes outside of Orochimaru, so he can't use Dragon mode. We've seen nothing about the hawks outside of the one that he summoned against Danzo. Also, there would be no point in Sasuke sharing an ability with his storied rival. He has EMS, Naruto has Kurama and Sage mode (which is time consuming to charge, I might add). The final fight between Sasuke and Naruto is going to be Susano'o vs Kurama mode. Sage mode won't work for that fight.
tht was not a theory , just an opinion that if that happens it will be a better hand-to-hand combat unlike the cannon these days
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:26 AM   #12
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Even with the sharingan, Sasuke hasn't had time to learn Sage mode. Remember that the dealings with him is in the same timeframe and Naruto and company vs Obito/Madara/Juubi. Aside from the lack of time, what animal would Sasuke use? He has no ties to the snakes outside of Orochimaru, so he can't use Dragon mode. We've seen nothing about the hawks outside of the one that he summoned against Danzo. Also, there would be no point in Sasuke sharing an ability with his storied rival. He has EMS, Naruto has Kurama and Sage mode (which is time consuming to charge, I might add). The final fight between Sasuke and Naruto is going to be Susano'o vs Kurama mode. Sage mode won't work for that fight.
Sasuke was implanted with juugo's cells which should allow him to gather nature energy... And if he can control the power, he will become a dragon sage or not be able to merely become a berserker like juugo...

It's all a matter of sasuke figuring out the truth to realize what he could be capable of IMO... Then with Oro training and juugo's cells he will become a dragon sage like no other...

Quote:
2 things:
  • First, the Sage was never said to have used the Juubi while he was the Jink, only that he sealed it away in himself to save the planet. Until such a statement is made you are arguing from ignorance.
But it's common knowledge that the jink uses the power of the bijuu sealed within them... And the juubi naturally has a sharinnegan eye... and the sage had the same eyes, as the juubi's jink... Thus the power of the juubi is where the SG and RG come from... a power made of pure nature energy...

Quote:
  • Second, aside from Naruto there hasn't been a single descendant of the Sage that has shown the ability to use Sage mode. No one from the Uchiha, Senju, or any other Uzumaki has been said to use Nature chakra. Again, until such a statement is made you are arguing from ignorance.
i need a statement to have a case here? What about the obvious connection of the physical changes due to nature energy....

It's simple, I have a case with the simple fact that everyone who uses nature energy has a pupil change, pigmentation of the eyes or possibly even some other trade mark of that shows they are using such a power...

: Uchiha have a pupil change like every other sage does...

: Uzumaki have trademark red hair that changes when they exhaust their power... From red to white... The same way the uchiha's eyes change red to white when they over use them in mangekyou form...

: And the only powerful senju "hashirama" had trademark wood element that is earth and water combined.... Two energies that are part of nature's energy...

It's the simple fact that that power of the sage's descendants came from the juubi which is a nature energy creature, thus they are all using nature energy chakra which is why it is so special and powerful...

Quote:
He has also been called the Rikudou Hermit. People claiming to be sages are often hermits, to give them a better understanding of nature and their "gifts" by keeping themselves away from society as much as possible. Calling him a sage doesn't mean he has access to Nature chakra, only that he is a hermit that has an understanding of the world (he was the first to teach about chakra).
Hemit mode is the same as sage mode... It is nature energy chakra mode... You are using the actual meaning of the word hermit... but using the meaning of the word "sage" for this story when both words mean basically the same thing... a Sage is someone known for wisdom and understanding of the world too... But in this story, they are nature energy users...

Quote:
I never said it was something I couldn't see happening, only that it hasn't been said to have happened. Claiming that it's fact without evidence to back it up (see: a manga panel that explicitly states something along the lines of "The Sage was able to manipulate the Juubi's chakra and use Nature chakra") is fallacious.
Why are you so hung up on statements??? If that statement had been made then this would not be a theory, it would be cannon... You know things occur in the manga that foreshadow obvious outcomes... Just as edo madara being infused with hashirama's power allowed him to awaken the RG from the EMS made it obvious that uchiha+senju=RG and thus nagato had to of had madara's eyes to awaken the RG, or have it implanted...

The power of the sage and his descendants coming from the juubi is that obvious at this point in the manga... it is something that does not need to be stated because it is being implied so greatly that it is almost canon, just waiting for confirmation...

Quote:
Not everything that the sage passed on came from the Juubi. He had the Rinnegan before he confronted the Juubi. So dojutsus like the Sharingan (which is a step to obtaining the Rinnegan) can be tied back to the Sage himself. Chakra manipulation also came before the Juubi, as the Sage had to use chakra to create the seals used to contain the Juubi. There are at least two things that haven't been attributed to the Juubi, so your argument of "everything the sage passed on was from the Juubi" is false.
How do you know the sage had the RG before he confronted the juubi??? If that is true then why does the juubi have the sharinnegan???

Did you ever consider that the sage might of been a sage and sealed it using nature energy because chakra is said to of came from the juubi, not the sage...

And I was referring to the YIN nature chakra (spritual energy and imagination that allows one to create shape and form from nothingness... basically the SG powers)
and Yang nature chakra (powerful physical energy and life energy that allows one to brethe life into nonliving things; allowing for super chakra, super regeneration, bijuu suppression and long life... powerful bodies)
Coming from the juubi... Chakra manipulation is a physical skill with chakra that the sage first used... But chakra itself has already been confirmed to come from the juubi as it's progenitor...
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KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


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People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


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Last edited by Konnaha_yellow_flash; 11-28-2012 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:52 AM   #13
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Good to see you still can't form a coherent argument and provide evidence for your claims. A theory requires some evidence behind it, not just wild speculation.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:00 AM   #14
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

KYF, I don't get why the Yin/Yang shit needed to be any part of this. Hell, the story gives a pretty clear reason why it can't be. The method of creating Sage chakra itself is to take chakra, which consists of the inner Yin energy (spiritual) and the inner Yang energy (physical), and use Natural Energy to achieve a new balance between all three. Natural Energy is neither Yin nor Yang. This is established already.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:54 AM   #15
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Re: The Nature energy Connection...

Good thread KYF. @Kael: not everything has to be said for you to apply a lil common sense to fill in the blanks. Like saying it wws never said the Sage used the Juubi when he was its jinchuriki. Lol onviously he MUST have used it all those years it was stuck inside him but you are one of those people that need everything to be stated. Failed logic.

Juugo's clan is a mystery and one cannot help but think his senjutsu/sennin chakra is linked to the Sage in some way. I think although there were other CS ninja's, Sasuke is possibly the first to have Juugo's actual flesh and a lot of it as well, fused on his body. Not only that, but it was fused to a VITAL part of his body and Sasuke is no doubt the only Uchiha to have gone through that process.

So in theory, it can create something unique in Sasuke, like how Obito and mokuton made him special. I like your theory Kyf, very interesting.

The Sage obviously had other descendants than just Senju and Uchiha. The manga even says(this should meet your approval Kael) that Uchiha and Senju are the DILUTED descendants of his 2 son's, so surely they must be more, albeit not as powerful as Senju and Uchiha.
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