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Old 08-08-2013, 02:13 PM   #76
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Re: Naruto 642

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Originally Posted by jeanericuser View Post
I think I found where you are getting that info from. You are reading wikipedia stuff aren't you? Here is what kabuto thinks when you compare the curse seal to sage mode. http://www.mangahit.com/naruto/579/11
Juugo was not trained at there. His body actually has a some what natural ability to gather it but the problem is unlike real sages which transform properly into real sages, Juugo and his clan transform into abominations that can't use the real power of sage mode. They can only optimize their existing body unlike real sages which can upgrade. In essense the best way to compare this is Dragonball Z super saiyan 2. When trunks and goku first tried to go super saiyan 2 for the first time they did it poorly which resulted in them transforming into an oversized brute that was just a pumped up version of super saiyan. When gohan on the other hand transformed into super saiyan 2 he did it properly with a true transformation. Juugo may be able to gather sage energy but compared to the other he is not in any way a real sage. If sasuke were to try and use juugo's cells he would just have the same effect. You need the real training at the real place otherwise the version of sage mode you end up with is just a piss poor copy.
No I have not used any Wiki Lol...

It's the fact that Juugo and his clan's ability comes form Ryuchidou which teaches ONLY senjutsu and even Juugo confimred that his Curse seal powers are actually Sennin/sage powers... Allowing him and hsi copies to transform into sennin/sage's through the gaining of nature energy.

However, the inability to perfectly balance the nature energy causes them to go bonkers and can account for their dragon like forms...
However, just because they are imperfect sage's like Jman was, does not mean they are not sage's...

As long as they can produce sage chakra and not become a statue, then they are sage's... Just imperfect ones, but sage's None the less.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:41 PM   #77
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Re: Naruto 642

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No I have not used any Wiki Lol...
You sure on that. When I did a search of your exact wording it came back with a wiki source on the search engine. I decided it was better off to use my own instincts and hit certain chapters that I know had info.

Quote:
t's the fact that Juugo and his clan's ability comes form Ryuchidou which teaches ONLY senjutsu and even Juugo confimred that his Curse seal powers are actually Sennin/sage powers... Allowing him and hsi copies to transform into sennin/sage's through the gaining of nature energy.
Where has Juugo said his ability is from Ryuchidou? I still have not found a chapter that says that. His seals are not actually a sage power. They are a water down ability that optimizes existing ability where is real sage power enhances. Its just as I described it before. The curse seal only brings out latent ability. It doesn't add it. Besides he hasn't even received real sage training as far as we know. Only the other four I mentioned have.

Quote:
However, the inability to perfectly balance the nature energy causes them to go bonkers and can account for their dragon like forms...
However, just because they are imperfect sage's like Jman was, does not mean they are not sage's...
Jiraiya's transformation is nothing like Juugo's nor is it like Kobuto or Orochimaru's transformation. They all gain features from the animal affinity they have trained with. In addition that effect happens when they are merged with an animal that helps regulate their sage energy. Jiraiya had ma and pa toad on his shoulders to allow him to access full sage power. Kabuto had several snakes that helped to manage his. Naruto since he can't do that he can only partially transform hence why his features are limited to frog eyes and discolorations on his face. The same I suspect is also true for orochimaru. Juugo on the other hand doesn't have the benefit of being able to properly transform. Unlike the others which have that animal affinity that helps them transform naturally, his body and mind warp as he has not been properly trained to do sage mode nor does he have an animal affinity to help him manage it properly.

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As long as they can produce sage chakra and not become a statue, then they are sage's... Just imperfect ones, but sage's None the less.
Calling that sage mode is like taking the engine out of a corvette and replacing that with an engine from an old chevy nova. Its not a true corvette anymore nor will it run like one. While all the others have full sage power and full sage abilities, Juugo is little more than than the chevy nova that could barely ever come close to the full power that is sage mode.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:52 PM   #78
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Re: Naruto 642

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Originally Posted by jeanericuser View Post
In addition that effect happens when they are merged with an animal that helps regulate their sage energy. Jiraiya had ma and pa toad on his shoulders to allow him to access full sage power. Kabuto had several snakes that helped to manage his. Naruto since he can't do that he can only partially transform hence why his features are limited to frog eyes and discolorations on his face. The same I suspect is also true for orochimaru.
Actually, this is false. Jiraiya's appearance when he entered Sage mode is he never got the chakra balance perfect, so he entered an Imperfect Sage mode. Naruto's eyes transforming alone was a sign that he had the chakra balance perfect. Jiraiya fusing with Ma and Pa was only so that he could keep using Sage mode by having them draw in the sage chakra while he had to move. Naruto got around the inability to do that by using his shadow clones.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:09 PM   #79
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Re: Naruto 642

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Actually, this is false. Jiraiya's appearance when he entered Sage mode is he never got the chakra balance perfect, so he entered an Imperfect Sage mode. Naruto's eyes transforming alone was a sign that he had the chakra balance perfect. Jiraiya fusing with Ma and Pa was only so that he could keep using Sage mode by having them draw in the sage chakra while he had to move. Naruto got around the inability to do that by using his shadow clones.
First of all, didn't Jiraiya need them in the first place just to go into sage mode. They were the ones that helped to manage it but as a result he entered a partially transformed state because he also merged with two toads. The same is also evident when kabuto entered sage mode with the snakes attached. His appearence was also very snake like. Then there is the fact that you need the animals attached just to be able to gather sage chakra while moving. Naruto can't do that because he has the kyubi which is why he has only a partial transformation where he gathers just enough that he can manage the chakra but he doesn't have the full sage ability to gather chakra while moving. I think orochimaru is in the same boat which is why in some cases you see him standing still alot until he wants to use those high end abilities of his. Then when he needs to gather again he stops and waits while gathering.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:30 PM   #80
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Re: Naruto 642

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Originally Posted by jeanericuser View Post
First of all, didn't Jiraiya need them in the first place just to go into sage mode.
No, he had been trying to gather the chakra to enter sage mode. But Pain had him constantly moving.

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They were the ones that helped to manage it but as a result he entered a partially transformed state because he also merged with two toads.
Again, they were only brought in because he couldn't keep moving and gather the required chakra. His appearance was due to not having learned how to perfect the balance of chakra.

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His appearence was also very snake like.
That's primarily due to his body containing Orochimaru's cells.

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Then there is the fact that you need the animals attached just to be able to gather sage chakra while moving. Naruto can't do that because he has the kyubi which is why he has only a partial transformation where he gathers just enough that he can manage the chakra but he doesn't have the full sage ability to gather chakra while moving.
You really don't read the manga, do you? Pa explained that one cannot move, at all, in order to gather Sage chakra. No matter what, a Sage cannot gather Sage chakra while moving. It's one of the downsides to using Sage mode in a battle, it takes time to prepare for it. That is why Jiraiya would fuse with Ma and Pa, so they could gather the chakra and give it to him while he fought. Naruto, because he couldn't fuse with Ma and Pa, came up with the solution of the clones gathering the chakra, then being dismissed so it would go back to him.

Quote:
I think orochimaru is in the same boat which is why in some cases you see him standing still alot until he wants to use those high end abilities of his. Then when he needs to gather again he stops and waits while gathering.
Except Orochimaru was never a sage. He didn't have the body for it. That was made obvious by Kabuto.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:21 PM   #81
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Re: Naruto 642

From the most coherent to the more crazed:

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I just want to point out Num, that your statement concerning diamonds could also be applied to this situation. Senjutsu is after all the combining of Nature chakra with the other 2 chakra types (mental and physical energy) people naturally have, to create a far more powerful chakra, that could be considered superior to "raw" nature chakra.
You do have a point and it's kind of funny I accidentally answered my own question and you had to point it out. Senjutsu being a refined byproduct of Nature Chakra can act as a counter due to the lack of proper defense.

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Bruting is the process whereby two diamonds are set into spinning axles turning in opposite directions, grinding against each other to shape each diamond into a round shape. I don't believe my analogy backfires, at the very least you can agree that at the top of the mohs hardness scale, only a diamond can scratch another diamond.
Actually the analogy still backfires because bruting is much more about crystal habit rather than crystalline structure (which is what provides hardness). Of course the latter is still a factor, since you can't do the same with a piece of chalk and a diamond in the rough, but crystals with similar hardness but quite distinct crystal habits will polish each other.

Of course you could argue that's what happening with Senjutsu and Narute Chakra, but there's no mention of such thing in the manga.

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Casting a Katon against another Katon would result in them colliding with each other to no effect. Each Katon would essentially be acting as a defense against the other. That's not what happened here.
@ bolded: That's what I said! Did you even bother to read?




@KYF: An entire post composed of repeating what we already know (and stealing AOTK's point, of all things!) and butthurt whining. Sorry if me calling on your blatant bullshit hurts your ego that much.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:40 PM   #82
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Re: Naruto 642

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No, he had been trying to gather the chakra to enter sage mode. But Pain had him constantly moving.
We are both wrong. Jiraiya couldn't enter sage mode on his own period. Fukusaku said it himself in that exact chapter. I will admit it I was wrong for saying he could enter sage mode on his own but you were also wrong as he was able to keep still while the frog he sat on did all the fighting and dodging.

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That's primarily due to his body containing Orochimaru's cells.
I thought so at first as well but then I noticed with each page he seemed to become more snake like as more snakes appeared. To change that quickly would mean he either had all of orochimaru's cells taking control or his body was physically transforming due to the presence of the nature chakra and the snakes.

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You really don't read the manga, do you?
If I don't read the manga would I even be able to have these spirited debates with actual comparisons sighting different chapters that happened months perhaps in some cases years ago. The main thing is Im not obsessed enough with it that I remember word for word every single thing that every single character has ever said. That's why like everyone else here I have to go back once and a while to reread old chapters like I am doing right now. Been a long time since I read jiraiya vs pain again. Thanks for reminding me to check it out again. Fun read though very sad ending.

Quote:
Pa explained that one cannot move, at all, in order to gather Sage chakra. No matter what, a Sage cannot gather Sage chakra while moving. It's one of the downsides to using Sage mode in a battle, it takes time to prepare for it. That is why Jiraiya would fuse with Ma and Pa, so they could gather the chakra and give it to him while he fought. Naruto, because he couldn't fuse with Ma and Pa, came up with the solution of the clones gathering the chakra, then being dismissed so it would go back to him.
It seems we are both well aware of those facts though you seem to have an contradicting statement. If you have toads on you than you can in fact move while collecting sage chakra. Thus you can be in sage mode while moving. Why I say naruto's mode is not a complete sage mode Im stating that his mode is more like a temporary power up boost that give him sage ability for a while but once that sage chakra runs out he is dumped back to regular mode. Jiraiya on the other hand as long as he has those toads on him he has pretty much unlimited access to sage chakra while moving. That would make his version the more complete version. The only problem with his version is that it unfortunately also causes a form of skin mutation. Then again considering how fugly kabuto ended up he could be a lot worse.

Last edited by jeanericuser; 08-08-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:10 PM   #83
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Re: Naruto 642

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Originally Posted by Numinous
Of course you could argue that's what happening with Senjutsu and Narute Chakra, but there's no mention of such thing in the manga.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Numinous
@ bolded: That's what I said! Did you even bother to read?
Yes, I did. You compared what happened in this chapter to two Katon jutsus used against each other, questioning why Senjutsu and Nature Chakra didn't work the same way. When I said "that's not what happened here" I meant that it's not the same situation and thus an unfair comparison. There were not two nature chakra jutsus used against each other. There was only one, Naruto's senjutsu rasengan landing a direct hit on Obito's undefended body.

I don't understand why there has to be a "counter" in this situation. Yes, two katon jutsus will cancel each other out, but if Sasuke is hit with a katon jutsu undefended he would still get burned.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:19 PM   #84
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Re: Naruto 642

If this chapter confirmed anything, it's that Tobirama is the real deal and Minato is a complete fraud.
Something worth considering about Sasuke:
-Vampired Karin
-Has a Snake contract(he does)

He's potentially a better match against Obito than Naruto if he wasn't so stuck on his Uchiha crap.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:49 PM   #85
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Re: Naruto 642

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Originally Posted by CrustaceaN View Post
If this chapter confirmed anything, it's that Tobirama is the real deal and Minato is a complete fraud.
Something worth considering about Sasuke:
-Vampired Karin
-Has a Snake contract(he does)

He's potentially a better match against Obito than Naruto if he wasn't so stuck on his Uchiha crap.
What this chapter confirmed is that Kishi needs a scape goat for abilities. Oh, tobi isn't nowhere near in strength to his brother or popularity? Give him virtually every ability that everyone else has that has some esteem to it and call it his. Edo tensei which we first saw oro use, it's originally tobi's. Oh, FTG? Minato was the only person in this manga that used it, now since it's convenient, let's give it to tobi so he can seem like a better shinobi. Let's also not forget that he DIED to 20 cloud ninjas so hiruzen, danzo and random nins could escape. Why didn't he pat either one of those nins on the back, keep himself alive for as long as he could, and then teleport away? Plot-to-the-fucking-holes.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:26 PM   #86
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Re: Naruto 642

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Originally Posted by jeanericuser View Post
I for crying out loud that is absolutely retarded. Juugo is not a sage first of all so sasuke didn't get sage energy skills from him nor do curse seals have anything to do with sage energy. If sage energy gathering was that easy to learn there would be several people on the battlefield but nope its not that easy. As the earlier chapters described it best, you need to first learn how to become attuned to gathering and managing that chakra though usage of that oil. Then when you learn how to balance it while gathering it you are ready to gather it naturally on your own. The only problem with doing it that way is you have to either stay perfectly still to gather properly or have another animal that is familiar with sage energy merge with you to provide you nature energy which you manage yourself. That is why kabuto need the snakes with him at all times to maintain sage mode where is naruto learned to use shadow clones to gather energy then release thus giving him instant supplies of sage chakra. Sasuke knows none of these things nor does he understand the full mechanics of it. So far the only people in the series that we know of that truly have had this training is naruto, jiraiya, orochimaru, and kabuto. The rest have yet to get that training thus they can't instantly become sages. Sorry sasutards but no sage mode for your sausage boy.
Firstly, Jugo's clan can gather natural energy without that oil http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/579/16. Secondly, After years of training with the cursed seal (which are made from Jugo), Sasuke should be able to balance natural energy to a certain extent to prevent turning into a stone. Thirdly, Sasuke does have Jugos flesh so he should be able to gather natural energy on the move.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:31 PM   #87
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Re: Naruto 642

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Still waiting for KB to do something. For a Jink he should be in the front line instead of hiding behind the alliance
Lmao I forgot all about him.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:34 PM   #88
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Re: Naruto 642

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustaceaN
If this chapter confirmed anything, it's that Tobirama is the real deal and Minato is a complete fraud.
Something worth considering about Sasuke:
-Vampired Karin
-Has a Snake contract(he does)

He's potentially a better match against Obito than Naruto if he wasn't so stuck on his Uchiha crap.
What this chapter confirmed is that Kishi needs a scape goat for abilities. Oh, tobi isn't nowhere near in strength to his brother or popularity? Give him virtually every ability that everyone else has that has some esteem to it and call it his. Edo tensei which we first saw oro use, it's originally tobi's. Oh, FTG? Minato was the only person in this manga that used it, now since it's convenient, let's give it to tobi so he can seem like a better shinobi.
In all honesty, there was mention of Tobirama having a T/S jutsu, it just was never confirmed what it was until recently. Kishi has done a piss-poor job in building up these characters.

I mean Minato was supposed to be a genius. And on top of that, Naruto was supposed to look like Minato, but have the personality and mannerisms of Kushina. Like I said in the last chapter discussion, whether intended or not, Kishi has shat all over Minato.

Quote:
Let's also not forget that he DIED to 20 cloud ninjas so hiruzen, danzo and random nins could escape. Why didn't he pat either one of those nins on the back, keep himself alive for as long as he could, and then teleport away? Plot-to-the-fucking-holes.

THIS!!!! F'N THIS!!!!
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:42 PM   #89
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Re: Naruto 642

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What this chapter confirmed is that Kishi needs a scape goat for abilities. Oh, tobi isn't nowhere near in strength to his brother or popularity? Give him virtually every ability that everyone else has that has some esteem to it and call it his. Edo tensei which we first saw oro use, it's originally tobi's. Oh, FTG? Minato was the only person in this manga that used it, now since it's convenient, let's give it to tobi so he can seem like a better shinobi. Let's also not forget that he DIED to 20 cloud ninjas so hiruzen, danzo and random nins could escape. Why didn't he pat either one of those nins on the back, keep himself alive for as long as he could, and then teleport away? Plot-to-the-fucking-holes.
True. I didn't see it like that, however, his prowess with said Jutsu or any jutsu does bring into question how he died against 20 cloud Ninja.

He did acknowledge the use of Edo Tensei when he was resurrected in Part 1.
Also Minato did say that Obito's T/S surpasses the "Second and My own"(that particular order and it was written in a way that made it seem like it was joint rather than separate).

Not much to go on, neither is there any confirmation, but I agree that to make Tobirama somewhat viable in this fight he is being used as somewhat of a scapegoat.

Still doesn't take away Minato's fraudulence(I could be incorrect, but there are many plotholes going on here).

Last edited by CrustaceaN; 08-08-2013 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:44 PM   #90
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Re: Naruto 642

The only thing Minato has done now that should be held to a high standard is his talent at dividing NEAR INFINITE chakra of a tailed beast in two, yin and yang. That right there is a feat in its own right... but leave it to Kishi, Hashirama will have been the first one to ever be able to split bijuu level chakra in two and both of them be complete living entities.

Also, I've been kind of half reading most of the shit regarding Minato's kyuubi shroud, is HE himself using the other half of the kyuubi chakra to make his own shroud or is he using the one that Naruto is lending to people like some cheap hooker?

EDIT: @Crust: I do remember him acknowledging the fact that he was revived using edo, but acknowledging it and someone ELSE saying years later that the technique was originally his in the first place are two different things. He should have at least said something along the lines of "oh, so i was revived using my own kinjutsu eh? how ironic" blah blah, a point for him and then it wouldn't have been so awkward to just GIVE him the jutsu years later.

Also while I understand that tobi having a t/s jutsu is plausible, at least have it be something new. FTG isn't the ONLY t/s jutsu out here and considering that tobi can just create a fucking jutsu that literally revives people from the DEAD, he should have had another t/s ability. I suppose at this point that's where FTG comes into play. Hell, they could have at least have Minato tell the audience of how he has perfected the second's technique of this and that, then we would've known then that that was tobi's ability and not minato's. Which wouldn't have dissolved his skill to take a t/s jutsu and PERFECT it without what i'm assuming is no prior knowledge to its workings. I hope that we don't hear about the fact that tobirama was called the white flash or some stupid shit back in the day because of how fast he moved using ftg or i'll fucking explode.
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Last edited by platinumrug; 08-08-2013 at 07:50 PM.
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