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Old 09-22-2013, 03:54 PM   #136
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Had to edit the post to make it fit this page...

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
KYF, I'm the one who seriously doubt you actually observed child behavior to think Freud's hyper-simplistic approach to it holds any water. While children do have simpler behavior patterns than adults, they aren't devoid of behavioral complexity. And no, my nephew is just like any other kid, you simply don't know any kid to even consider they're simply selfish and don't have basic morals. They are just like adults, some more selfish, others more altruistic, it's just like AMA said, if anything they act more on their whims than adults do.
LMAO, to even compare the behavior of a small toddler to an adult proves your pure ignorance on this subject... And the fact you actually believe that MORALS are hardwired at Birth is just the dumbest thing you have came up with yet... ANd what is your evidence... A paper on children handing adults shit they ask for to try and prove altruistic behavior... Just fucking stupid to support such a paper...
An I am not arguing that without a way to prove your case, you are wrong... I am just saying without any evidence, you have no argument... Just arguing with opinion will go nowhere...

Quote:
Oh and the one link you pretend to have read but clearly only bothered to read the summary isn't enough? Don't worry, here are more links if you aren't satisfied:
That paper is an abomination and you have no defense before it beyond more random claims because you know it is shit!!!

  1. OMFG!!! These idiots showed children a puppet either being led up a hill by one puppet and down a hill by the other and labled the one going up as HELPING and the one GOING down as HINDERING then when they managed to get more babies to so called HELP the puppet up the hill, they were showing they evaluated those on their behavior towards other which is just ridiculous when a puppet leading a puppet up or down a hill is nor good or bad and ONLY the stupid study adults own IDEA of good and bad caused the IDEA of babies to somehow be able to interpret good and bad when their is no WAY for them to know the difference...

    Just another BS Experiment based on The studiers INTERPRETATION of the babies behavior, not ACTUAL motivation for their behavior based on evidence, testing, ect... So this one is complete BS like the previous...



    Hope you know that this was about there being no moral compass for babies at all, merely that the previous papers experiment was actually showing some simple and general associative mechanisms...
    WHy did you even post this as EVIDENCE when it refutes your argument???

    You clearly did not read this because you would know that all the actual evidence they have of morality is that one baby apparently took some candy from a so called BAD puppet the slapped it.... ONE BABY in a whole experiment as if the inconsistent behavior of one baby doing such a thing could show anything other then the pure idiocy of these study people...
    other then that, they jsut discussed the issue as far as I was willing to read because this paper was the worse one yet...

    CONGRATS, YOU FALIED AGAIN TO SHOW ANY CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF SUCH A THING AS MORALITY IN BABIES..

    I stopped after these idiots claimed that a child protesting sharing blocks was not his being selfish and acting like a normal baby, but showing his morality did it for me... I mean, did you even read these papers, so far they have shown nothing beyond the pure idiocy of the study people who are experimenting and writing thee papers...

    ANother fail!!!

    God this and thus you are so fucking stupid to use this as evidence.. These people like the ones from before are ONLY INTERPRETING the motivations of the babies behavior by their own OPINION of it not the actual Motivation and REASON for the behavior at all...

    They merely having children copy them by picking things up, hand them things that are supposed to be theirs and call it sharing, ect and interpret is as altruistic behavior while actually doing absolutely NO experimenting or studies to find the motivation and reason for the behavior...

Quote:
And I'd link you to a documentary on apes' behavior that also included child behavior (namely altruism and basic morality), but I saw it on TV and I unfortunately I still haven't tracked it down on the net.
Whatever I am tired of reading your idea of altruistic and unselfish behavior in babies by ONLY personally interpreting the behavior thus drawing the conclusion from Opinion not actually experimenting and using studies to actually find the REASON or MOTIVATION for the behavior which is the ONLY way to show such a thing a Morals, not just give your personal opinion based on your own personal interpretation of the behavior...

Quote:
And you don't need credentials, only common sense. Oh my, I didn't know your delusions were common sense nor that common sense superseded scientific knowledge (I'd love you to apply common sense to quantum physics). No, you DO need credentials if you are claiming better knowledge of the subject than people who specialized in the field. So yeah, until you actually show a paper with your name on it to justify your claims, I'll stick to the position of thinking you're just an arrogant bastard bullshitting his way through to not admit defeat.
LMAO, what scientific knowledge? What credentials? All they did was give thier interpretation of the behavior, not the acutal reason for the behavior based on experimenting and study because you know, they are a Kind SCIENTIST apparently...

The FACT that you support a paper about studiers just trying to use their own interpretation and opinions of babies behavior as evidence of morals being hardwired at birth just further proves how desperate you truly are to draw at such a small straw to the point there is almost no straw with such a shit paper base on nothing more then opinion, not scientific evidence...

Quote:
Finally, I love how you accuse me of projection when you project the most. I don't know anything about conditioning but somehow I know that conditioning DOES require two stimuli because the whole point of conditioning is to evoke with the conditioned stimulus the normal response to the unconditioned stimulus, so do tell me how the fucking hell can you pull conditioning when you lack one of its core components? Oh yeah, you fucking don't, because it's not conditioning, it's just a bullshit excuse by KYF to defend Kishimoto's sloppy writing!
LMAO, keep telling yourself that to keep up the delusion that you actually know what you are talking about, thus project your little heart out because the anxiety of accepting your short coming are too much for a weak girl like you...

Forrest, the unconditioned stimulus does not matter in this case, it is the conditioned stimulus that you keep proving forrest gump about...... And I already explained that stimulus as seeing dead shinobi walking around rarely, thus the unconditioned response is pure surprise... and now you try argue there needs to be two different Conditioned stimulus which is stupid as fuck clearly showing you know nothing about conditioning at all!!!

You even argue that kishi's writing is sloppy because you cannot even understand the conditioning in the suppression of surprise by the consistent seeing of edo after edo walking around for days to the point by the time they saw Orochimaru, they did not have much surprise at all...
And then argue that Kishi conditioned everyone to think that riine tensai caused white hair even after it did not even once because it was explained as nagato pushing his chakra bast it's limits... Proving you know nothing baout conditioning...

Quote:
And, just like your fellow boob MrBig, you still haven't address the issue of the roots of morality, considering them being taught causes an infinite regress.
Oh jebus, your trying too hard... Morality of judging good and bad is based on OPINION... And is just like beauty, perfection, ect... For a child to know the difference between good and evil, they have to be taught because an opinion, idea cannot be passed on like INSTINCTS...
Pretty much, Morality can never be proven with babies because you can never actual know the motivation or reason of their behavior because they cannot convey thier emotions, ntentions without the ability to express it to you... Preyy much you are left with you idea, interpretation of what (good or bad) they were motivated by, thus unable to ever know so you are arguing something without any way to actually show anything credible for it...

I assume the rest is for MRBIG...
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And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


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People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
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Old 09-22-2013, 04:10 PM   #137
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Lulz @ Kyf trying to refute peer reviewed research papers. His draconian psychology is clearly superior to psychologists of today.

I bet he is one of those people that still believe vaccines causes autism.
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Old 09-22-2013, 04:28 PM   #138
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Lulz @ Kyf trying to refute peer reviewed research papers. His draconian psychology is clearly superior to psychologists of today.

I bet he is one of those people that still believe vaccines causes autism.
SO another one who supports papers that use of personal interpretation and opinion to support an idea of morals in babies, not actual experiments and studies to determine the actual reason and motivation of the behavior... You know, because they are a kind of scientist, thus use science to draw a conclusion not an Opinion of direct behavior, WTF... How could support this BS?....

Nope, never had much of an opinion on the matter... Heard it was due to too much Mercury or something, but I never actually knew of any vaccinated children becoming more autistic after getting vaccinated, just what was claimed by those complaining of the issue... Thus, I have no opinion on it.. DO not think it did, or did not happen...
__________________
KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


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Old 09-22-2013, 05:37 PM   #139
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde View Post
Perfection, for me, means to be without fault. A sin is a fault.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but isn't sin considered a violation of God's will by Christian doctrine? It isn't a simple fault, it's pretty much an offense to the (assumed) creator and moral giver.

Edit: Oh my, KYF, you truly are one of a kind. You keep claiming that peer-reviewed articles have no merit in their conclusions as if you had the capacity to do so just to bullshit your way into not admitting error from your part. But KYF, it's really easy to stop me thinking you're an arrogant dimwit for implying his outdated point of view is better than a specialized one: please present your credentials or a scientific paper of your authorship (doesn't even need to be peer-reviewed) that delves into infant psychology. I mean, if you can outmatch the research and opinion of specialists, this should be a piece of cake.


Quote:
and now you try argue there needs to be two different Conditioned stimulus which is stupid as fuck
Yeah, that's the main problem here: you don't know how to fucking read. I've been asking again and again for two stimuli, the conditioned and the unconditioned, and you still failed to provide them and you will because the conditioned stimulus is simply absent, unless you are a pal with Kishimoto and know of something the rest of the world doesn't.
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:31 AM   #140
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but isn't sin considered a violation of God's will by Christian doctrine? It isn't a simple fault, it's pretty much an offense to the (assumed) creator and moral giver.
Not exactly. Biblically speaking, sin is a crime against God, but it can also be a crime against man. Common instances being lying, stealing, and killing.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:15 AM   #141
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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I've heard this notion/thought process numerous times, and I understand what you're saying. I, too, have an interest in the other mythologies. But the reasoning for my belief in Christianity is because of my personal experiences. That is why I stated this earlier:

Quote:
True believers in any religion believe because of their experiences (or lack thereof). People who are "raised" in religions usually aren't the practicing type and usually fall under the agnostic group.
This is pretty blatantly false honestly. Being "born again" does in no way make you more faithful or committed than someone who has been raised with religion, and it sure as hell doesn't mean you're more dogmatically committed to the ideas of religion. Early familial exposure and religious education has a much greater impact on one's self-identity and beliefs than any "born again" experience.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:24 AM   #142
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by AOTKorby View Post
This is pretty blatantly false honestly. Being "born again" does in no way make you more faithful or committed than someone who has been raised with religion, and it sure as hell doesn't mean you're more dogmatically committed to the ideas of religion. Early familial exposure and religious education has a much greater impact on one's self-identity and beliefs than any "born again" experience.

There's a blatant and vast difference in "being raised in" and "choosing" any religion. I was raised in the Christian faith. I also decided to choose that faith as my own. If I wanted to, I could have walked away. And for your last sentence, it rings hollow with the majority of self-proclaimed "raised Catholics" across the world.

Edit:
I chose Christianity because of several near-death experiences in my... young adult days, some self-inflicted, others wrong place, wrong time. Having a person hold a gun to your face, pull the trigger, and the gun jam... yeah, that trumps just about any thing that I was raised on.

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Old 09-23-2013, 12:04 PM   #143
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Hai, sole survivor of a 3 fatality car accident. Still an atheist. Personally, I couldn't invest belief in an unseen, supposedly good God that killed 3 of my friends, one of which was the last of his siblings, and leave a teenager permanently scarred both mentally and physically (I suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on ~35% of my body). Don't spout near death experiences as a way to believe, I've been down that road and still get people going "you have to believe in god with that".

Edit @Kyf: there hasn't been a causal, or even correlative, link between vaccinations and a child developing autism. In fact, the journal that publish the "study" has printed a retraction and an apology to the medical community.

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Old 09-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #144
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but isn't sin considered a violation of God's will by Christian doctrine? It isn't a simple fault, it's pretty much an offense to the (assumed) creator and moral giver.
SIN can be whatever the hierarchy of douche's want it to be... although technically you probably are right.

Quote:
Edit: Oh my, KYF, you truly are one of a kind. You keep claiming that peer-reviewed articles have no merit in their conclusions as if you had the capacity to do so just to bullshit your way into not admitting error from your part. But KYF, it's really easy to stop me thinking you're an arrogant dimwit for implying his outdated point of view is better than a specialized one: please present your credentials or a scientific paper of your authorship (doesn't even need to be peer-reviewed) that delves into infant psychology. I mean, if you can outmatch the research and opinion of specialists, this should be a piece of cake.
1). Credentials means nothing compared to a reasonable argument using actual evidence to support it... Something you and the writers of most of those papers would know nothing about...
You simply are using a false authority/appeal to autheority fallacy... Trying to argue simply having credentials or a paper and not evidence is enough...

Just proving further how damn BIAS you can be to ignore the real relevance of actual evidence for mere credentials and a written paper on the subject...

2). You still have yet to explain what exactly your LINKS proved beyond the OPINION of personal interpretations of the studiers idea of what the baby's behavior is motivated by... Which means nothing, not even trying to prove anything despite using science which shows how stupid the papers are...

Quote:
Yeah, that's the main problem here: you don't know how to fucking read. I've been asking again and again for two stimuli, the conditioned and the unconditioned, and you still failed to provide them and you will because the conditioned stimulus is simply absent, unless you are a pal with Kishimoto and know of something the rest of the world doesn't.
Oh, so I never gave you the UC Stimlus or UC response and yet you claim I cannot read when just the last repost I made to you, I gave them again so you could not bitch anymore, but you ignored them yet again, WTF!!!

LAST POTS: PROOF YOU DO NOT READ:
Quote:
Forrest, the unconditioned stimulus does not matter in this case, it is the conditioned stimulus that you keep proving forrest gump about...... And I already explained that stimulus as seeing dead shinobi walking around rarely, thus the unconditioned response is pure surprise...
I have already explained to you the UC stimulus and UC response before and yet you still ask for two simulus so how are you then not just asking for two separate stimulus of the Conditioned stimulus.. since I already gave you the UC stimulus and UC response before...

It is your own fault for ignoring or just plain not knowing how to read after I gave the UCS and UCR a couple times now...


Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Hai, sole survivor of a 3 fatality car accident. Still an atheist. Personally, I couldn't invest belief in an unseen, supposedly good God that killed 3 of my friends, one of which was the last of his siblings, and leave a teenager permanently scarred both mentally and physically (I suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on ~35% of my body). Don't spout near death experiences as a way to believe, I've been down that road and still get people going "you have to believe in god with that".

Edit @Kyf: there hasn't been a causal, or even correlative, link between vaccinations and a child developing autism. In fact, the journal that publish the "study" has printed a retraction and an apology to the medical community.
Well, I never really had much of an opinion on the matter anyways... Just more BS reporting... And likely the ONLy people that are going to believe it are the conspiracy types who thinks the government is out to get them...
__________________
KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


ITACHI UCHIHA
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:57 PM   #145
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Hai, sole survivor of a 3 fatality car accident. Still an atheist. Personally, I couldn't invest belief in an unseen, supposedly good God that killed 3 of my friends, one of which was the last of his siblings, and leave a teenager permanently scarred both mentally and physically (I suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on ~35% of my body). Don't spout near death experiences as a way to believe, I've been down that road and still get people going "you have to believe in god with that".
Apparently you're missing the point. You've got your experiences, and from them, you've made your choice.

This is my opinion... a belief that I choose... if you think this life is it, based on what you just stated from your experiences, we all lead sad, pathetic lives. There was a meaning to you being the sole survivor in that crash. Maybe you've realized it, maybe you haven't. Because if this life is meaningless, what's the point?
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:11 PM   #146
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash View Post
1). Credentials means nothing compared to a reasonable argument using actual evidence to support it... Something you and the writers of most of those papers would know nothing about...
You simply are using a false authority/appeal to autheority fallacy... Trying to argue simply having credentials or a paper and not evidence is enough...
Sorry, I'm not appealing to authority, you're the one claiming that a specialist's work is null without presenting a single proof you are qualified to do such a thing. That's why peer-reviewing exists and, if you are trying to refute a scientific paper, you should be a peer to do so since it's not a layman like the people in this forum that will debunk them.

Sorry, credentials and/or scientific paper of your authorship or just admit your bullshit.

Quote:
Oh, so I never gave you the UC Stimlus or UC response and yet you claim I cannot read when just the last repost I made to you, I gave them again so you could not bitch anymore, but you ignored them yet again, WTF!!

LAST POTS: PROOF YOU DO NOT READ:
Proof YOU do not read:

Quote:
I've been asking again and again for two stimuli, the conditioned and the unconditioned, and you still failed to provide them and you will because the conditioned stimulus is simply absent
I've been asking for the conditioned stimulus for almost a week, which would make the two stimuli I know that are required for conditioning. So your whining about presenting US and UR is idiotic considering you only have conditioning if you have CS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde View Post
There was a meaning to you being the sole survivor in that crash. Maybe you've realized it, maybe you haven't. Because if this life is meaningless, what's the point?
Existential nihilist here, just because life is meaningless doesn't mean it's pointless. How about living an happy, fulfilling life and making yourself its meaning? I find that more fulfilling than to aimlessly search for the meaning of life.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:42 PM   #147
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde View Post
Apparently you're missing the point. You've got your experiences, and from them, you've made your choice.

This is my opinion... a belief that I choose... if you think this life is it, based on what you just stated from your experiences, we all lead sad, pathetic lives. There was a meaning to you being the sole survivor in that crash. Maybe you've realized it, maybe you haven't. Because if this life is meaningless, what's the point?
Well, fuck you too. I never stated that we all live sad, pathetic lives. In fact, regardless of my accident I'm happy with life. I have a beautiful girlfriend I live with. I have a good paying job. I'm working on going to school for something I've been interested in for the past 20+ years. I don't believe that this life is pointless. I just don't fall prey to a system that automatically punishes you for being born, and expects you to kiss the ass of some imaginary person for something no one even knows exists.

Edit: this is one of the things I hate most about Christians in particular. They feel talk like they have a monopoly on happiness and the only way the rest of us can get in on it is to get on our knees before a figment of their imagination. Not just you, I've seen news reports that say atheists are more depressed or angry than people of faith, when its more like the opposite.

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Old 09-23-2013, 04:18 PM   #148
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Existential nihilist here, just because life is meaningless doesn't mean it's pointless. How about living an happy, fulfilling life and making yourself its meaning? I find that more fulfilling than to aimlessly search for the meaning of life.
Forgive me for laughing at this notion coming from one of the self-proclaimed socialists on this forum. Not everyone can live a happy, fulfilling life. Hell, there have been people that have experienced what kael has, lost loved ones, and curse a God that they choose to deny. Kudos to kael for making the most of life (seriously), but unfortunately, that can't be said for the majority of people. Whether they're born in situations, place themselves in situations, or wrong place and time... bad things happen. I personally have seen men, who said they lead fulfilling lives, and once they buried a loved one, forsook all. It's easy to say lead a happy, fulfilling life, and then some time later bury your children.

Yeah, I knowa man that has experienced a very similar circumstance that kael has, and his only hope in this life is that he will get to hold his wife and child in the next life.

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Well, fuck you too. I never stated that we all live sad, pathetic lives. In fact, regardless of my accident I'm happy with life. I have a beautiful girlfriend I live with. I have a good paying job. I'm working on going to school for something I've been interested in for the past 20+ years. I don't believe that this life is pointless. I just don't fall prey to a system that automatically punishes you for being born, and expects you to kiss the ass of some imaginary person for something no one even knows exists.
Keep things in context. Your life, estimated at what 70-75 years right now (average life span for a male), is a mere grain of sand on a beach using the time-frame that common science has accepted for the life of the planet we live on.... isn't it at billions of years now? Yeah, no matter what you (or I) accomplish in this life, it is small (at best), sad and pathetic to think this is it?

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Old 09-23-2013, 06:14 PM   #149
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Forgive me for laughing at this notion coming from one of the self-proclaimed socialists on this forum. Not everyone can live a happy, fulfilling life.
I think you misread what I said. I didn't say that everyone will have such a life, only that it is possible to have one even if life itself is meaningless, meaning that life lacking intrinsic meaning does not equate to it being pointless.In other words, I simply refuted your absolute statement that I know to be inaccurate.
Quote:
Keep things in context. Your life, estimated at what 70-75 years right now (average life span for a male), is a mere grain of sand on a beach using the time-frame that common science has accepted for the life of the planet we live on.... isn't it at billions of years now? Yeah, no matter what you (or I) accomplish in this life, it is small (at best), sad and pathetic to think this is it?
Please, j_H, don't cross KYF's and MrBig's path of telling others what they (should) feel. You may find such a concept small, sad and pathetic, but most atheists (myself included) find it humbling, encouraging and satisfying. You may ask "this is it?", but I ask: isn't it enough?

We are but an ephemeral species on a tiny little rock that already has an expiration date, but we have managed to acknowledge so much about our universe and we're still learning every day and it's such a thrill to be capable of so much despite our very limited lifespan. And the universe is already so full of wonder, beauty, danger and mystery, so trading that for heaven or hell just feels... wrong. Specially when, again, many atheists including me find heaven and hell equally atrocious places to spend eternity.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:28 PM   #150
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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I think you misread what I said. I didn't say that everyone will have such a life, only that it is possible to have one even if life itself is meaningless, meaning that life lacking intrinsic meaning does not equate to it being pointless.In other words, I simply refuted your absolute statement that I know to be inaccurate.
It was a question, really in two parts. What is the meaning of life, because if it can be summed up in 70 years, give or take 10 years or so, compared to the vastness of the presumed life of our planet, what's the point? Why is it that human beings are one of the few species with no apparent mating season, yet we have understanding and comprehension not to just kill the weak for the survival of the fittest, but to kill period? What's the point of lying, or not lying? The question is really based around this belief, the human soul. What is the meaning/purpose of the human soul?


Quote:
Please, j_H, don't cross KYF's and MrBig's path of telling others what they (should) feel. You may find such a concept small, sad and pathetic, but most atheists (myself included) find it humbling, encouraging and satisfying. You may ask "this is it?", but I ask: isn't it enough?

We are but an ephemeral species on a tiny little rock that already has an expiration date, but we have managed to acknowledge so much about our universe and we're still learning every day and it's such a thrill to be capable of so much despite our very limited lifespan. And the universe is already so full of wonder, beauty, danger and mystery, so trading that for heaven or hell just feels... wrong. Specially when, again, many atheists including me find heaven and hell equally atrocious places to spend eternity.
I am not suggesting hat one should choose to think/believe. I am... heavily affirming my belief, and if one chooses to agree or disagree with, no harm no foul. In this discussion, I have not attacked one person parse, except you, which I do apologize, but I mistook what you said for other intended purposes.

And is it enough? Eloquently stated, No. People have survived horrendous ordeals, and are forced to live with ailments, whether they are physical or mental. It's not about fairness. It's about what is just. Even in Christianity, those that are "born again" will still stand before God for the sins they have committed. There is no justice in this life. Like I said earlier, kudos to people such as kael that have faced tragedy and came out on the "good" end.
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